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furo
Germany449 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:46 SpikeStarcraft wrote: this balance patch convinces me to wait for hots since i dont feel like playing wol in the current state anyhow. where can i get a beta key? perorder from amazon.de at least i got mine that way you dont need to buy the game if you dont want to, you can still cancel. | ||
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:52 furo wrote: perorder from amazon.de at least i got mine that way you dont need to buy the game if you dont want to, you can still cancel. thx, i just tried that. Downloading client right now. Preorder already canceled  ^^ | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:44 WeRRa wrote: Well it is true in bw protoss was good cause they had the strongest standart units, with dragoon and zealot and this was the basic of all armys of protoss. In sc2 the basic of a protoss is in the early game the sentry and in mid/lategame collossi, high templar and archons, really nothing for the big battlefield, more like for fights at tiny chokes. And i think the only change mutas need is the stack they had in bw, so you can make them super effective with micro. Protoss workers also mined faster than the other races' workers mined faster than the other races' workers in BW, and they generally had the most workers of any race. Comparing to BW is really pointless, because BW balance only exists because of massive coincidence and the heroic efforts of map makers. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:59 Kyadytim wrote: Protoss workers also mined faster than the other races' workers mined faster than the other races' workers in BW, and they generally had the most workers of any race. Comparing to BW is really pointless, because BW balance only exists because of massive coincidence and the heroic efforts of map makers. The heroic map makers are also what gave BW so much variety as not many of the maps, if any at all ever really played out exactly the same due to map features. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine. What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? | ||
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LastDance
New Zealand510 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up already, but... I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine. What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? I'm guessing "2-base Immortal Timing" was probably not the answer you were looking for. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:34 Treehead wrote: I'm guessing "2-base Immortal Timing" was probably not the answer you were looking for. Not quite I'm genuinely curious, because in WoL the "answer" is blink stalkers and storm, broadly speaking. Stalkers can scoot and shoot and blink to catch up, obviously that's negated by speed/accel boost. Ditto storm doing markedly less damage. I'm missing something somewhere ^^ | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:34 Treehead wrote: I'm guessing "2-base Immortal Timing" was probably not the answer you were looking for. The muta speed increase is likely going to be an upgrade, so zerg will have a rough time opening up with super speed mutas. Also, all the stargate changes will make stargate openings more common/better. And that whole immortal time with recall thing, thats also pretty awesome. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:38 Plansix wrote: The muta speed increase is likely going to be an upgrade, so zerg will have a rough time opening up with super speed mutas. Also, all the stargate changes will make stargate openings more common/better. And that whole immortal time with recall thing, thats also pretty awesome. but if i don't go stargate opener? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Hold out until you can get three bases to transition into stargate if they invest in Mutas that hard? Hit with agression before the standard muta timing to cripple them and ride that out until the late game? | ||
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Babru
196 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up already, but... I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine. What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play altogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depending on things you might not even be able to scout. I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awful autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down altogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers. This whay p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without relying on phoenix. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
1) Infestors 2) Swarm Hosts 3) Or Fast Hive Tech Each of which have a distinct required response. Roach Warren should mutate into Swarm Warren, which allows the research of the creation of Swarm Host (Swarm Aspect) and has Swarm Host specific upgrades. But, I guess this will probably looked over once the big issues are figured out, like those addressed in DKs post, which I look very forward to. Now lets just see when they implement this. I have a feeling the "soon" might mean January. Or they just might say they tried it internally and it didn't work. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play alltogether. Why these super hard counters? Zerg can bring corruptors with mutalisks | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:46 Babru wrote: Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play alltogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depening on things you might not even be able to scout. I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awfull autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down alltogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers, and more importantly p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without being forced to open stargate. stargate opener completely deny mutas. if you open blink you will still be fine. only problem i see is opening robo BUT: recall is the strongest thing toss gets in HOTS. its no more baserace with mutas! he baseraces? well kill 2 bases, recall and defend. recall is so powerful (not many people work with it yet) that i even think it will get nerfed or become an upgrade or less radius so you can only use it in early and early midgame. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On December 04 2012 21:58 Umpteen wrote: Just for a bit of fun, what might some of the more ambiguous changes entail...? Terran 1. Redesign Thor ability/Raven seeker missile Ravens now fire Thors. Thors now fire Ravens. 2. Push early game Reaper a bit more Free Reaper with every SCV produced. 3. Hellbats better against melee units, not necessarily better vs. Ranged. Passive ability: Long Stick. Prevents melee units getting in range to attack. 5. Buff Bio in the late game - with the addition of new units in HotS, we feel Bio in the late game is a bit weak. Bio upgrades now go to 11 6. Buff mech in general - we'd like to maybe test combining the vehicle and air upgrades at the armory. We're also combining the actual vehicles. Say hello to the Vithortankcruiser. Zerg 1. Hydralisk movement speed upgrade to Lair Hydralisk den moved to Hive 3. Ultralisk changed to be good vs. all ground Ultralisk cavern changed to Barracks. 4. Nerf Infestor quite heavily Got it covered. Protoss 2. Oracle - pulsar beam would now overlap too much with the new Voidray, so we'd like to change the Oracle to be more of a worker harasser. New channeled ability: Health and Safety Seminar. Prevents any useful work. Some workers commit suicide. This was really funny and therefore has no place in TL. I want more whining about balance, the infestor, David Kim, Dustin Browder and how Blizzard just doesn't get it (in that order). Your suggested changes to the infestor were hilarious btw. | ||
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Babru
196 Posts
Yea, that is also why we are seing all zergs going muta adding a lot of corruptos once the p counters z with phoenix and then keeps harassing with mass muta + corruptors. Oh w8, that never happens. Its not effecient, and when z has a lot of corruptors out to deal with phoenix the timing window for when mutalisk should have done dmg has somewhat already passed. My post also was about how p could deal with mutas without relying on phoenix. Im saying i would prefer it if p wouldnt have to rely on phoenix vs muta. Obv there are other ways to deal with it (like blinkstalkers together with cannons), but protosses are saying those methods arent efficient enough. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up already, but... I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine. What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? Which top level protoss are having trouble against mutas anymore? Muta builds are used once in a while to mix things up but I can't think of any zergs whose go to build is mutas. If you go mutas all of the time you just lose. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:53 Babru wrote: Yea, that is also why we are seing all zergs going muta, then adding a lot of corruptos once the p counters z with phoenix and then the z keeps harassing with mass muta + corruptors. Oh w8, that never happens. Its not effecient, and when z has a lot of corruptors out to deal with phoenix the timing window for when mutalisk should have done dmg has somewhat already passed. My post also was about how p could deal with mutas without relying on phoenix. Im saying i would prefer it if p wouldnt have to rely on phoenix vs muta. Obv there are other ways to deal with it (like blinkstalkers together with cannons), but protosses are saying those methods arent efficient enough. Sen did it agaisnt protoss in GSL all the time. He went directly to spire and used the corruptors as support, even vs stargate openings. This was before the era of the 12-14 minute 200/200 roach push that killed every stargate opener that was worth talking about. After that, mutas have been overshadowed by fungle and the late game death army. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:46 Babru wrote: Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play altogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depening on things you might not even be able to scout. I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awfull autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down alltogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers, and more importantly p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without being forced to open stargate. Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros? Are you asking Blizzard to balance the game around the problems of plat./diamond/masters level zerg? Watch how pros handle it. Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play, and thank god that it's not. If you want to deal with a hard phoenix counter you build infestors and fungal the phoenix and kill them with your mutas, or you just transition to tier 3. Thus zerg has a counter to the counter; I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed. | ||
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