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The next major balance patch - David Kim - Page 22

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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Morphs
Profile Joined July 2010
Netherlands645 Posts
December 04 2012 20:36 GMT
#421
On December 04 2012 03:12 spbelky wrote:
O Dayvie, such good intentions. But does he have the tools and knowledge to pull it off?


I just laughed at this

Very promising changed indeed, I think some more radical stuff is what the game needs. Just let it happen and balance from there. It should spice up things a bit and should lead to a new and possibly better metagame.
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
December 04 2012 20:40 GMT
#422
yeah vipers will actually reintroduce HT and ghosts in vs Z MUs which is awesome.
Babru
Profile Joined September 2010
196 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-05 01:56:45
December 04 2012 21:12 GMT
#423
On December 05 2012 04:35 The_Darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 03:52 Babru wrote:
On December 05 2012 03:42 The_Darkness wrote:
On December 05 2012 03:21 Babru wrote:
On December 05 2012 03:05 The_Darkness wrote:
On December 05 2012 02:46 Babru wrote:
On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up already, but...

I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine.

What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta?


Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play altogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depening on things you might not even be able to scout.

I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awfull autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down alltogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers, and more importantly p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without being forced to open stargate.


Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros? Are you asking Blizzard to balance the game around the problems of plat./diamond/masters level zerg? Watch how pros handle it. Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play, and thank god that it's not. If you want to deal with a hard phoenix counter you build infestors and fungal the phoenix and kill them with your mutas, or you just transition to tier 3. Thus zerg has a counter to the counter; I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed.


"I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed". I dont think everyone, including some of the very best protosses, agree with you.

"Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros?". When talking about balance the only level that is relevant is the highest one.

"Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play". Mutalisk harassment with a potentiall followup (given the right circumstances) by going into straight brute force mutalisk balls together with lings/banelings on the ground is, in contradiction to what you claim, very viable. If there wasnt a threat of phoenix i would think a lot more zergs would open straight into spire builds more often.

In any case, like i wrote in my post, i dont like the phoenix - muta dynamic.

Again, which pros are having trouble against this build since we're talking about the highest levels of play? Korean protosses are not struggling against muta at all so why did you write "What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate"? Try doing what they're doing now. Watch Creator or Hero play; they're got it figured out. A little acceleration might empower mutas in HoTS but MSC will give Protoss more options not to have to engage in a base race with mutas. I take everything I just said back: Since you probably can tell, from DK's post alone, exactly what changes will be made to mutas and exactly what impact that will have on the game (and have determined that Protoss will now have no idea how to deal with mutas even though they have figured out how to defend against mutas in WOL even without stargate), I think you should save Blizzard the trouble of making the change and then having to undo it by writing DK a letter explaining how Protoss, even though the build is fairly easily dealt iwth now (unless the protoss is caught completely off guard), will not be able to deal with mutas because of the to be determined acceleration or speed or whatever boost that they might give to mutas.

In all seriousness, zergs can beat protoss going muta ling bane but most of the time Protoss (by Protoss I mean top tier Protoss) can defend that rather easily and I would guess, if someone complied stats, that the build is something like 60-40 at worst Protoss favored, which means the build hardly is a problem from the P prospective. If they do some insane buff then it may become a problem, but it's obviously way too early to tell and it's not currently a problem so why worry about it at all?



Are you for real? I have not written "What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate", that is some other guy. I play zerg and i think mutalisk are really strong given the right circumstances in ZvP. Read my posts.

What i am saying is, i would prefer if the consequences by choosing to go mutalisk were more even, i think the mutalisk choice is really strong in certain situations but way worse in other situations. The game has some hard counters i think we are all very aware of this fact by now. I would like to see the game go slightly in the different direciton, less hard counters, and i dont like the phoenix - muta dynamic.


Sorry, it was the other guy I was quoting not you. Apologies. Back to your post then: Who cares what your expierences are? Why even mention them since your experiences are irrelevant to balance discussions? Also, when you say "more even", for whom are you saying it should be more even? At the pro level it seems like both sides have pretty good options and the game is back and forth if zerg goes mutas, with Protoss being favored because mutas it turns out aren't that good. If you're really good at defending and with blink stalkers and army positioning you should win if you're protoss once you're maxed. If you use mutas to transition into blord infestor efficiently and can inflict at least some damage because the Protoss was caught off guard you have a chance to win as zerg. It doesn't seem like anything is broken here. You keep saying that phoenix hard counter mutas but that doesn't mean you can't go mutas if they build phoenixes since you can still build infestors to stop the phoenixes, something Stephano, e.g., is good at doing. It's not easy to do, but why should it be?

So I'm confused by your point since mutas are most certainly not an auto win for zerg. Also just because a build is strong in certain instances doesn't mean it's a problem. DT builds are very strong when your opponent does not have detection. No one is fretting about DT usage. Protoss have more than one option to counter mutas and Zerg can fight back with mutas (if for some ungodly reason a zerg wants to go mutas in zvp) so long as some infestors join the fight. (Corruptors are an option too but Zerg almost always lose when I see them go corruptors to fight the phoenix.) So I don't see where the problem lies except that you stopped watching pro games 6 to 9 months ago when mutas were still a thing in zvp and you think it may be a problem in HoTS.

I hate to pick on you but a preposterous amount of discussion in these forums is substantially off base and helps nothing. If there is one thing no one needs to worry about now it's mutas in zvp. Also I would guess that protoss would take a slight resurgence in muta usage over more blord infestor deathball play.


I have not said that there is a balance issue regarding mutas or phoenix, and i have not said that my reasoning is based solely on my own experiences. I have only said that i think its too big a difference in how the muta play turns out depending on if p plays phoenix or not. I dont like hard counters in general and phoenix vs muta might just be the biggest hard counter in the game when having tech patterns and resources etc in mind. If a zerg makes 15 mutas thats a pretty big investment/commitment, and 5-6 phoenix can pretty much deny those mutas from being useful during the timing window they need to be useful. The zerg can in that situation fall back on infestors or some other anti-air yes, but i simply dont like how the mutas all of a sudden go from a big threat to nothing and how the zerg with intentions of being agressive now have to be passive with his mutas. Hard counters doesnt encourage micro, yet the game can obv still be perfectly balanced no matter how many hard counters there are in a match up.

The ZvP matchup is pretty balanced (according to the latest statisticsis and given this infestor nerf) and things are pretty fine indeed, i have not claimed anything else. And i have not argued for any change to mutas, i feel like you are a bit off in understanding what ive been talking about. If i am to wish for my optimal game though, it would be a game with less hard counters and less booring easy micro units the way phoenix right move click autoattack works. Surely you can think off certain aspects of the game that would be better (or just more fun) if more micro/less gambling were involved? To sum up, i dont like gambling and hard counters. If p got some other effective alternative to deal with mutas and phoenix still were able to deal with mutas, but not as well as they do right now, i would prefer that, like i stated in my first post.
algorithm0r
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada486 Posts
December 04 2012 21:24 GMT
#424
I like how the perspective of Blizzard has changed from WoL to HotS. These changes are almost perfect (would like to see : remove FF/sentry).

GOGOGOGO BLIZZZ..... Patch this shit!
SCMethod
Profile Joined November 2012
United States40 Posts
December 04 2012 21:30 GMT
#425
I like the infestor nerf and buffs for some of the units to compensate

now to see how it gets pulled off...
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
December 04 2012 21:37 GMT
#426
Making DTs more viable late-game should be fun
¯\_(シ)_/¯
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
December 04 2012 22:02 GMT
#427
On December 05 2012 03:51 Falling wrote:
Not a big fan of combining mech and air upgrades. One of the uniquenesses of mech play is that you committed to it and it was actually a significant investment to go mass air. The transition to air has already been eased by the medic -->> medivac switch combined with Reactors. Combining mech and air upgrades? meh.


I think the main reasoning behind it is the viking is pretty much mechs anti air and since oftentimes you need to get attack and plating on mech first, then your vikings just get destroyed by their air they've already upgraded or don't do enough damage to help you against whatever comes at you.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Jasiwel
Profile Joined June 2012
United States146 Posts
December 04 2012 22:05 GMT
#428
I like these changes so far. I think HotS will be a lot more than people have been suspecting. It may not be radically different, but I'm beginning to like SC2 a lot more just watching it. There are more options, Protoss is really looking mighty again instead of just dominating at lategame, and the game simply looks more complete.
LavaLava
Profile Joined January 2012
United States235 Posts
December 04 2012 22:30 GMT
#429
On December 05 2012 03:51 Falling wrote:
Not a big fan of combining mech and air upgrades. One of the uniquenesses of mech play is that you committed to it and it was actually a significant investment to go mass air. The transition to air has already been eased by the medic -->> medivac switch combined with Reactors. Combining mech and air upgrades? meh.

I think it works well with the fact that Mech Anti Air is awful. And the fact that Terran has the most necessary upgrades by far (Protoss has shields to upgrade but can pretty much just play on the ground)
syroz
Profile Joined September 2012
France249 Posts
December 04 2012 22:47 GMT
#430
Warp ability can be fun for DT, late game (unlockable in a tiers 3 building).
When will this amazing patch be released?
Xanbatou
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States805 Posts
December 04 2012 22:51 GMT
#431
anyone think that with the addition of blinding cloud, fungal growth can be changed to deal no damage and have a duration of eight seconds like it used to except instead of rooting it slowed? they could also play with making it castable while burrowed.
Blargh
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2102 Posts
December 04 2012 22:51 GMT
#432
DTs late game isn't even that bad in this current state, it's not used enough though. But if they were to just simply buff DT in ANY way without nerfing it in another, then the unit would just make for even more bad games. They should be able to blink around (like stalker), but only have 5-10 seconds of cloak on a CD, that way, you can still do tons of damage, but it isn't an auto-win assuming they had JUST used mules and don't have a turret up. It isn't a terran's fault for not being able to scout what the protoss is doing. If a scan misses the twilight/DT shrine, it is practically wasted, which is a big deal since mules are what keep terran economy up with P and Z. Not to mention that DTs already REQUIRE the a scan (1 less mule) just to be seen =/
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
December 04 2012 23:54 GMT
#433
On December 05 2012 07:47 syroz wrote:
Warp ability can be fun for DT, late game (unlockable in a tiers 3 building).
When will this amazing patch be released?

Where was this ever mentioned?
The heart's eternal vow
GrassEater
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden417 Posts
December 04 2012 23:58 GMT
#434
On December 05 2012 07:51 Blargh wrote:
DTs late game isn't even that bad in this current state, it's not used enough though. But if they were to just simply buff DT in ANY way without nerfing it in another, then the unit would just make for even more bad games. They should be able to blink around (like stalker), but only have 5-10 seconds of cloak on a CD, that way, you can still do tons of damage, but it isn't an auto-win assuming they had JUST used mules and don't have a turret up. It isn't a terran's fault for not being able to scout what the protoss is doing. If a scan misses the twilight/DT shrine, it is practically wasted, which is a big deal since mules are what keep terran economy up with P and Z. Not to mention that DTs already REQUIRE the a scan (1 less mule) just to be seen =/


I think it should be an autowin if the terran is cached off-guad. Like it is now with cloak banshee if the toss just used the msc to recall and dont have energy to detect the banshee.
weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
December 05 2012 00:01 GMT
#435
On December 05 2012 07:51 Blargh wrote:
DTs late game isn't even that bad in this current state, it's not used enough though. But if they were to just simply buff DT in ANY way without nerfing it in another, then the unit would just make for even more bad games. They should be able to blink around (like stalker), but only have 5-10 seconds of cloak on a CD, that way, you can still do tons of damage, but it isn't an auto-win assuming they had JUST used mules and don't have a turret up. It isn't a terran's fault for not being able to scout what the protoss is doing. If a scan misses the twilight/DT shrine, it is practically wasted, which is a big deal since mules are what keep terran economy up with P and Z. Not to mention that DTs already REQUIRE the a scan (1 less mule) just to be seen =/


however, at high levels of play, seeing the dark shrine isnt the only way of suspecting DTs. If you know your opponent is missing some sentries or tech, making a turret for 100/0 isn't the biggest investment. Or save a scan. Added to that you also get the advantage of beeing able to spot DTs without detection.

I agree however that DTs cant be made much stronger in the lategame, they are fairly strong already. Adding blink would be complete overkill and even with a 5 sec Cd cloak cooldown, Dts would be completely imbalanced
xCherubiMx
Profile Joined July 2012
United States25 Posts
December 05 2012 00:41 GMT
#436
I know Im gonna catch hell for this but Terran is the 'favorite child'
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25215 Posts
December 05 2012 00:59 GMT
#437
On December 05 2012 09:01 weikor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 07:51 Blargh wrote:
DTs late game isn't even that bad in this current state, it's not used enough though. But if they were to just simply buff DT in ANY way without nerfing it in another, then the unit would just make for even more bad games. They should be able to blink around (like stalker), but only have 5-10 seconds of cloak on a CD, that way, you can still do tons of damage, but it isn't an auto-win assuming they had JUST used mules and don't have a turret up. It isn't a terran's fault for not being able to scout what the protoss is doing. If a scan misses the twilight/DT shrine, it is practically wasted, which is a big deal since mules are what keep terran economy up with P and Z. Not to mention that DTs already REQUIRE the a scan (1 less mule) just to be seen =/


however, at high levels of play, seeing the dark shrine isnt the only way of suspecting DTs. If you know your opponent is missing some sentries or tech, making a turret for 100/0 isn't the biggest investment. Or save a scan. Added to that you also get the advantage of beeing able to spot DTs without detection.

I agree however that DTs cant be made much stronger in the lategame, they are fairly strong already. Adding blink would be complete overkill and even with a 5 sec Cd cloak cooldown, Dts would be completely imbalanced

Lategame speed boost, adds variety but doesn't break anything. Give the DT the speed boost that medivacs have, would be awesome.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Ettick
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States2434 Posts
December 05 2012 02:22 GMT
#438
Buffing bio and mech = buffing terran
Hell, it's about damn time
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25215 Posts
December 05 2012 02:25 GMT
#439
On December 05 2012 11:22 Ettick wrote:
Buffing bio and mech = buffing terran
Hell, it's about damn time

Yeah perhaps, depending on how they do it. Straight up buffing those trees in terms of the units involved is a bad approach to pursue though.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
DaNkS
Profile Joined December 2012
United States9 Posts
December 05 2012 02:41 GMT
#440
LOL man mutas are already OP in WOL toss shouldnt remove the vortex or the mothership will be completely useless..... Bio ball is already OP as it is Terran Thors own almost every zerg unit 1 widow mines owns a ton of banes...
2eZ
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