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On November 28 2012 18:59 wankey wrote:
So what does the swarm host really do?
a) It takes away micro from the game yet again. You plop them down, and watch.
b) Projectiles are so slow that they are basically useless by themselves.
c) It requires at least 4-5 swarm hosts to be effective, meaning 12-15 food gone into swarm hosts.
What it really does, if positioned well, is force your opponent to deal with them which in turn may force him out of position. Burrowed units that keeps spawning resonably strong units are not something your opponent want knocking on his door for an extended period of time.
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its funny enough that the SH is being compared to the broodlord, but whats the point of comparing its(anythings) efficiency to an infestor?
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First of all, free spawning units are bullcrap in an RTS, even with a timed life. I don't like how a major part of the zerg design philosophy among Brood Lords, Infestors, and now Swarm Hosts is that they spawn "free" units that benefit from upgrades while not costing any additional supply or resources. Sure these spawners take supply by themselves, but the fact that they can constantly bombard the enemy with attacking units that by themselves cost nothing, requiring the opponent to sacrifice either their own units, resources, buildings, or energy against an essentially non-exhaustable resource is not good.
Second of all, the swarm host is just a lair-tech broodlord, and broodlords are not an interesting unit. So far in hots, it seems like the most popular additions have been siege units (Swarm Host and Tempest). Why is everything turning into who has the better siege engine? Yeah TvT is fun, it's positional etc, but it's balanced because everyone has the same siege mechanics. Now we're trying to give every race it's own siege mechanics, and we're going to go into an escalating siege weapons arms race. Zerg bombards P with free units, P masses Templar/Colossi/Tempests and has a superior siege army. Sure it will force more positional play, but having more matchups become defined by the siege mechanics of each race doesn't sound very fun.
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Swarm hosts are so awesome I'm surprised they going to be buffed. I just said that to counterbalance the whining in this thread :p
Whoever is saying there is no micro with swarmhosts, well sorry but you are wrong. Microed locusts do much better than un-microed ones. Burrow-spawn-unburrow is much more effective than when the swarm hosts just sit there. Timing your attacks to use locusts as meatshields requires micro. Not to mention the creep spread that has to be done for locusts to really become long-range.
I would say that hosts require just as much micro as siege tanks and even more than collosi, if you want to compare the races T2 siege units.
Of all the things to be bitching about in HOTS, swarm hosts are the very least of them. Blizz got this one right.
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On November 29 2012 06:31 ElMeanYo wrote:
Swarm hosts are so awesome I'm surprised they going to be buffed. I just said that to counterbalance the whining in this thread :p
Whoever is saying there is no micro with swarmhosts, well sorry but you are wrong. Microed locusts do much better than un-microed ones. Burrow-spawn-unburrow is much more effective than when the swarm hosts just sit there. Timing your attacks to use locusts as meatshields requires micro. Not to mention the creep spread that has to be done for locusts to really become long-range.
I would say that hosts require just as much micro as siege tanks and even more than collosi, if you want to compare the races T2 siege units.
Of all the things to be bitching about in HOTS, swarm hosts are the very least of them. Blizz got this one right.
People bitch just for the sake of bitching, they don't like the design and that is it. It is still beta, I am pretty sure that we will see a lot of great games with Swarm Hosts and Vipers when the HOTS comes out, I am 100% positive. Swarm Hosts have a lot higher micro potential than any other Siege unit, just because you can constantly move them around, burrow & unburrow, and pro players will even micro the Locusts and spread them so they take less damage from splash(Stephano already did this at the start of the Beta when he was streaming HOTS).
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On November 29 2012 06:26 Vod.kaholic wrote:
First of all, free spawning units are bullcrap in an RTS, even with a timed life. I don't like how a major part of the zerg design philosophy among Brood Lords, Infestors, and now Swarm Hosts is that they spawn "free" units that benefit from upgrades while not costing any additional supply or resources. Sure these spawners take supply by themselves, but the fact that they can constantly bombard the enemy with attacking units that by themselves cost nothing, requiring the opponent to sacrifice either their own units, resources, buildings, or energy against an essentially non-exhaustable resource is not good.
Second of all, the swarm host is just a lair-tech broodlord, and broodlords are not an interesting unit. So far in hots, it seems like the most popular additions have been siege units (Swarm Host and Tempest). Why is everything turning into who has the better siege engine? Yeah TvT is fun, it's positional etc, but it's balanced because everyone has the same siege mechanics. Now we're trying to give every race it's own siege mechanics, and we're going to go into an escalating siege weapons arms race. Zerg bombards P with free units, P masses Templar/Colossi/Tempests and has a superior siege army. Sure it will force more positional play, but having more matchups become defined by the siege mechanics of each race doesn't sound very fun.
So because spawned units have certain strengths, they are imbalanced? Both the brood lord and swarm host are balanced (or should be balanced) around the concept that these free units are important, and the loss of the unit generators is a powerful blow. This is actually the case. Swarm Hosts are expensive, and having them die is no better than losing a siege tank, or a colossi, or a thor, or a HT, or a Carrier, or a Battlecruiser. You've drawn these lines in the sand, saying that this particular method of doing damage is worse for the game than these other traditional forms of damage, but these lines are simply imaginary. They are counterable, they are expensive, and beating them puts you at the advantage. The only difference between a pair of locusts and a round from a siege tank is that instead of responding with X you do Y, but both still lead to Z.
Brood Lords are a more poorly designed unit, and infestors are overpowered. There's nothing about them spawning free units that makes them inherently imbalanced, merely their application and combination that did so. You think you can boil down the imbalance of an entire race to one singular concept, but it is not nearly that simple.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I personally as a Terran player actually love Swarmhosts. They force me to actually keep some units back to make sure I don't lose a position on the map and it allows the zerg player some map control which against mech isn't exactly easy once the mech player leaves his base.
Depending on how many makes me want to bolster my defenses, but it forces me to move and go deal with it.
I wouldn't like to even compare the swarm host to the broodlord, because unlike the broodlord the swarmhosts locusts don't do instant damage and they don't get in the way of running away. They just have a chance of doing damage if the person isn't prepared and due to them being strong, it makes them decent.
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On November 29 2012 06:41 Qikz wrote:
I personally as a Terran player actually love Swarmhosts. They force me to actually keep some units back to make sure I don't lose a position on the map and it allows the zerg player some map control which against mech isn't exactly easy once the mech player leaves his base.
Depending on how many makes me want to bolster my defenses, but it forces me to move and go deal with it.
I wouldn't like to even compare the swarm host to the broodlord, because unlike the broodlord the swarmhosts locusts don't do instant damage and they don't get in the way of running away. They just have a chance of doing damage if the person isn't prepared and due to them being strong, it makes them decent.
I've had some great battles with Terran players so far in HOTS with swarmhosts vs Mech. I really like hosts because they give a zerg another option against Mech that can work.
They have some pretty big weaknesses so you have to protect them well but I have found them to be good for putting pressure on the Terran and for defending a big mech push. I think hosts fill this role nicely.
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Eh, the swarm host makes a swarm, and Zerg is all about swarming your opponents with units. Otherwise, it's pretty lame. Basically just a ground brood lord.
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I disagree with the flow of logic that "BLs are boring to watch, they spawn units, SHs will be boring to watch because they also spawn units". The biggest reason why BLs are boring to watch have less to do with "free units" and more to do with the fact that they're a slow moving, slow acceleration, sieging air to ground unit. Swarm Hosts move faster and allow for much more micro than the BL. The Guardian was rarely used in BW at the highest levels and IMO it's also pretty boring to watch, and as much as players love when the under used BC and Carrier are used, they would be equally as boring to watch if they became the standard late-game for their respective races unless things like BW Carrier micro are added.
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I just want the roach gone and a weaker, cheaper hydra in its place again.
Might actually make me play zerg again, because the roach was the sole reason I stopped.
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10387 Posts
I just dislike how SC2 Zerg is defined as "free units" race instead of the "map control" race
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On November 29 2012 06:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:
I have a few very important thoughts about swarm hosts:
1. I saw a game once where a player went swarm hosts and the other player couldn't deal with them; it's totally OP.
2. I saw a game once where a player went swarm hosts and couldn't break the other player with them and that player rolled over the player that went for swarm hosts; the swarm host is totally useless.
3. I saw a broodwar game and it had a different unit that had some of the same features as the swarm host; since it was a unit in BW and BW is the best possible game and everything it is as good as it possibly can be, they should just use that other unit in place of the swarm host because it's clearly better even if it comes from an entirely different game and would be pretty useless in SC2.
4. I have determined solely by looking at the statistics and what each zerg unit does that the swarm host serves no role at all and you would be foolish to build any because the infestor is better and thus the people that use the swarm host effectively are just fooling themselves.
5. By creating free units, the swarm host forces your opponent to micro more against free units. Despite the fact that the presence of the locusts will force other players to think strategically about engaging the swarm hosts and to micro more, the swarm host is really just an anti-micro unit because you cannot just walk up to them and shoot them.
6. In a game I played on ladder I created a bunch of swarm hosts and attacked my opponent; I didn't micro anything; I just massed swarm hosts. Therefore, swarm hosts do not require any micro and lower the skill cap. (BTW, I lost that game, which proves that swarm hosts are useless.)
I think that about covers it.
You forgot: I have not seen the Swarmhost used by GSL code S level players in a competitive best of three or five. Therefore, the Swarmhost value and OPness is unknown. But it looks bad ass when really mechanical players like Idra use it.
I agree. I saw the GOM HotS show match games (the one with Leenock, he knew how to use them) and was really impressed with swarm hosts.
Saying they don't require micro or whatever is silly. I think it's a good design, numbers can be tweaked a bit (for example, what if locusts last longer but swarm host spawns them slower, so you had to micro them more, etc).
And I'm a Reaver fan (Reaver > Colossus). IMO, Swarm Host has more potential than Lurker (in SC2). Plus, people have been complaining about how Zerg and Protoss have not that many microable units (compared to Terran for example). Outside of stop lurker (which they can do with weapons free and hold fire, the ghost abilities in SC2 that stop auto attacking) and some positioning (which the swarm host has too and more), the lurker probably won't add much micro or fun stuff to the zerg side.
Swarm Host has the potential to be more fun IMO.
Now if we're talking about adding old units, how about the reaver.... The reaver is really unique (nothing has really replaced it in SC2). You had target micro (target the units that the scarabs are most likely to hit), shuttle micro with the reaver, etc. The opponent "also" had to micro against the reaver (so it's not like the opponent can't do anything to them). The reaver added micro potential to both players and it was fun to watch. Scarabs are really unique too.
Bring back the reaver!
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On November 28 2012 19:26 y0su wrote:
I like the "burrowed siege unit" idea. I greatly dislike the "free zerg units" idea that already takes place with Infested Terrans and Broodlings. One of the big aspects of Zerg play is deciding when and how to spend larva. Being able to so greatly increase your army value with minimal larva takes away a lot of decision making. (I'm actually gonna think more about that and the current state of Zerg.)
You need to indirectly spend larvae because the host needs support.
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The only reason people compare swarm host to lurker is because they both burrow to attack, even though they aren't the same kind of unit. Everyone overlooks that the swarm host adds something that zerg is really lacking in the midgame; swarm host is an instigator(not board control like lurker, even if it has barely slightly more utility than just units for that). The swarm hosts allow zerg to force an engagement in the midgame, instead of having to wait for hive to get broodlords or ultras before they can reliably engage well.
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On November 29 2012 06:36 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 06:31 ElMeanYo wrote:
Swarm hosts are so awesome I'm surprised they going to be buffed. I just said that to counterbalance the whining in this thread :p
Whoever is saying there is no micro with swarmhosts, well sorry but you are wrong. Microed locusts do much better than un-microed ones. Burrow-spawn-unburrow is much more effective than when the swarm hosts just sit there. Timing your attacks to use locusts as meatshields requires micro. Not to mention the creep spread that has to be done for locusts to really become long-range.
I would say that hosts require just as much micro as siege tanks and even more than collosi, if you want to compare the races T2 siege units.
Of all the things to be bitching about in HOTS, swarm hosts are the very least of them. Blizz got this one right. People bitch just for the sake of bitching, they don't like the design and that is it. It is still beta, I am pretty sure that we will see a lot of great games with Swarm Hosts and Vipers when the HOTS comes out, I am 100% positive. Swarm Hosts have a lot higher micro potential than any other Siege unit, just because you can constantly move them around, burrow & unburrow, and pro players will even micro the Locusts and spread them so they take less damage from splash(Stephano already did this at the start of the Beta when he was streaming HOTS).
Dude, that's exactly what you do with tanks. Except with sieging instead of burrowing. Even focus firing the tank shots takes about as much micro as moving around the locusts.
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Said it before, I'll say it again, I hate this unit.
On November 14 2012 14:55 sick_transit wrote:
I play zerg. The major spectator complaint about WOL at the moment seems to be the dominance of a boring static defense/slow-moving siege-style composition in zerg lategame (spine/BL/infestor). So it kind of amazes me that Blizzard and a lot of players/spectators think adding another slow siege-style unit to zerg is going to improve the game.
I was about to start complaining about the fact that zvp and zvt are currently balanced around two terrible units (sentry/infestor) but I don't want to derail the thread.
tldr; I can't stand watching/playing swarm hosts.
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On November 28 2012 21:35 mango_destroyer wrote:
At first I agreed it looked hella boring, then I realized seige tanks and collosus are boring too. If you look at it from the perspective that it is a seige unit (which it is), then you will understand. It is also more microable than seige tanks.
Why is the siege tank boring? its the only ground control unit in the game, and its a great apm sink. And how is the SH more microable than the Siegetanks?
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Can we be honest about the OP? He has no clue about the game. Comparing SH to Lurker or BL is just bullshit, end of story.
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On November 29 2012 05:15 InfCereal wrote:
I love it when I come into swarm hosts threads, and everyone is talking about the lurker.
It'll be a good day for starcraft when people realize heart of the swarm isn't brood war.
Sadly, people realized this and decided that this game sucked so the majority of the casuals went to LoL. Look at gom studio for GSL, 10-11 people at most -.- and majority of it are the crew (you can tell because they are standing and have cameras).
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EPT
