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On November 28 2012 22:17 vidium wrote:
It seems many people would like a SC Broodwar HD and not an evolution of the game which is SC2. Every game evolves and when new units come in the game everybody just cant accept them.
Evolution serves a purpose.
The swarmhost is a crappy copycat of one of the greatest RTS units of all time. Blizzard is trying SO hard to make it different because they just CAN'T bring in old units...Your logic is flawed man...everyone who spews that bullshit out just doesn't get it...
It's not about whether something is completely new or not. Everything has been done before in one form or another.
It's about implementing things with GOOD design. Removing redundancy. The swarmhost is just a T2 broodlord man. Look at all the dull units in this game. Why the fuck can't they just put in good units if they don't have the drive to be creative?
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i hated the swarm host since it was announced...
1 big reason why i wont play zerg in hots. it just feels boring to play with it and boring to watch 
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It's extremely difficult to use.
As a random player who has never really quite use tanks except mech, I don't quite know how to do this type of slow pushes.
But if you watched hots pro stream a while ago, it looks pretty interesting. Swarm host push style requires a different mind set than muta ling, infestor ling style.
It's even more interesting to see how a player try to break the contain, similar to watch how a zerg try to mass up units for flanks etc to swarm in.
It doesn't have the same role as a lurker. So please stop comparing. Though I agree that it doesn't feel so zerggy but still, kinda awesome.
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Everyone is just talking about lurkers now. I wish people would think of better ways than just say go lurker (which most people probably havent even played BW)
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Why can't the swarm host instead of free units shoot a large ball that moves rather slowly forward and once it reaches its target it explodes. Free units have become synonymous with the zerg race which is questionable.
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68 Posts
SH is really a shitty version of Lurker. It's ridiculous saying "play BW" when it's Bliz who has to remake the Lurker and turn it to shit so people won't complain about BW era
Lurker has everything SH has beside the range, which is previously supported by Defiler. SH is a lot more immobile, has no AoE, has terrible containment ability, terrible synergy with other units and far lower skill ceiling.
SH is the most boring 'new' unit in HotS and it's quite unnecessarily strong atm
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Why do people see stuff that messes up your pathing as anti micro, while it is the other way round and actually force micro to work around this pathing block. And the Swarmhost is best if you reposition them after each shot, wouldn't call that microless unit. Especially since you can micro those units.
Don't hate on a unit if the players are to lazy to utilize it. That being said if there is no need to use them to their full extend, then the counters are either to weak or the units stats are to strong and should be tweaked. A unit should work in a-move against a-move. But it should need micro if the opponent does too. And the Lurker basically was just burrow micro and the Lurker drop was just to block mining until detection is there to clean them. Sure the Swarmhost isn't as good at this drop or at slowing down pushes. But you can use it offensively. The Lurker was made, because Zergs had problems holding attacks midgame. The Swarmhost is made, because Zerg siege is rather weak midgame.
The Broodlord would also be less boring if you would have to create surface area by targetfireing stuff and if you would need to pre create Broodlings when the opponent decides to attack. Or if people would actually abuse the fact that even the overkill creates Broodlings, so that attacking one free unit of the Zerg would create 1 Broodling per Broodlord and because they life quiet some time, you could create more Broodlings and then just send this troop to attack and maybe snipe Ghosts or Hts that are put in the front to deal with Infestors.
Just Imagine a typical stalemate on Daybreak and a Zerg would go on 250 supply and would sit in the middle and create Broodlings from there on each of the 3 lanes and try to deal damage that way. While it would look really unfair it would look pretty cool as well.
Just like the evil Terran scanning behind the Zerg army, before he moves in to attack and dropping a mule there to trigger all the Broodlords wasting a wave of Broodlings behind their army, which might end up blocking the reatreating Zerg units on the ground.
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I'd rather the Swarm Host fire like a giant goo-ball that explodes on location and spreads out doing AoE damage. Something along the lines of the Bio Rifle from Unreal Tournament games.
Currently the Swarm Host feels like a unit that would be amazing in a game like Brood War, where it isn't death-ball smashing against death-ball.
I've said this before, I think the units being added are too Brood War-esque in that they would fit and be appropriate for a game that plays like Brood War. But Starcraft 2 unfortunately does not, it is a one-punch-slug-fest after 10 minutes of charging your right hand. Same with the Viper.
These units would be great in a game where small skirmishes were plenty, and I don't think we'll ever really see them shine because of that problem. And these units don't do much to help the issue either.
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Another reason I don't like the Swarm Host is that it's either
a) a small annoyance when you only have one or two SH
b) a complete OP when you have a lot
c) completely useless when they can kill your projectiles before you hit them
It's such a slippery and inconsistent unit.
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My problem with the Swarm Host is that the doesn't unit functions well with other Zerg units (at least in PvZ) and doesn't offer anything different in PvZ really.
The Swarmhost lacks synergy with the fast moving Roach and Speedling, so it becomes a different form of play in the same way that Colossus play differs from Templar play in PvT. That is fine, but they cost a lot, you need a lot to make them work and the Swarmhost doesn't work that well with Ultralisk or Broodlords, limiting transitions. Compare this to the Infestor, which you can invest a lot into during the mid-game and use them defensively or offensively and then they synergize well with Broodlords or Ultralisks in the late game. Swarm Hosts do not synergize well with Ultralisks or Broodlords in the late game, so if you want to transition into the late game from the mid game, Infestors are still the best choice by far.
And when you are building large amounts of Swarmhosts, you have to end the game with that composition due to their cost and the fact they don't synergize with Broods or Ultralisks (you won't be able to protect your Broods like Infestors can, and Ultralisks will just get blocked by the Locusts and Fungal won't be there to hold units down for Ultralisks) so they will be best used for all-ins. Thus in many ways, they function like Hydras do in PvZ, good for some all-in timings, but not viable for late game play.
And so Zerg can build a bunch of them and hit a timing with Corrupters and Hydras or Infestors or whatever, but the Protoss player doesn't really need to do much different than standard play, teching up to Colossus and building a few for the lategame deathball (note that unlike the Swarm Host the Colossus works well in the mid-game and then transitions well as part of the late game deathball). It is these Colossus that allow you to defeat Swarm Hosts. So you simply need to scout your opponent, realize they are heading for Swarmhosts, and cut your tech and produce a lot of units. So you hold them the same way you'd hold any other all-in. The Swarmhost then just provides another all-in opportunity for Zerg in PvZ, rather than a new unique and interesting style of play.
I haven't had many issues with Swarmhosts as a Protoss player. I lose to them when I don't scout for them or prepare for them properly as I should.
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Some misconception is going on here, swarm host was never introduce as an map-control unit as shredder/widow mine, they were suppose to be a siege unit, and at that it is much better than lurkers.Besides it has some use as a defensive unit if you couple it with spines, as board control it really suck compared to lurkers.
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I view them like I do siege tanks. Should be used to help with map control. Problem is SC2 has never really been a map control type of game, which is unfortunate. I always enjoyed seeing the tank/turret lines inch across the screen in BW.
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On November 28 2012 22:17 vidium wrote:
It seems many people would like a SC Broodwar HD and not an evolution of the game which is SC2. Every game evolves and when new units come in the game everybody just cant accept them.
Thats the main problem for most people including me. It feels more like a de-evolution.
As for the op his arguments feels more like a rant instead of good analysis. Sorry op!
It just needs better writing and explination.
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The biggest issue imo is the fact that locusts impede unit movement. The only unit movement spell I have ever liked in any game was stasis trap from WC3. In fact I think this is where they should go with fungal. The infestor throws an 'egg'. It sits for 1 second and then explodes having the same effect it currently has.
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On November 28 2012 23:45 FeyFey wrote:
Why do people see stuff that messes up your pathing as anti micro, while it is the other way round and actually force micro to work around this pathing block. And the Swarmhost is best if you reposition them after each shot, wouldn't call that microless unit. Especially since you can micro those units.
Don't hate on a unit if the players are to lazy to utilize it. That being said if there is no need to use them to their full extend, then the counters are either to weak or the units stats are to strong and should be tweaked. A unit should work in a-move against a-move. But it should need micro if the opponent does too. And the Lurker basically was just burrow micro and the Lurker drop was just to block mining until detection is there to clean them. Sure the Swarmhost isn't as good at this drop or at slowing down pushes. But you can use it offensively. The Lurker was made, because Zergs had problems holding attacks midgame. The Swarmhost is made, because Zerg siege is rather weak midgame.
The Broodlord would also be less boring if you would have to create surface area by targetfireing stuff and if you would need to pre create Broodlings when the opponent decides to attack. Or if people would actually abuse the fact that even the overkill creates Broodlings, so that attacking one free unit of the Zerg would create 1 Broodling per Broodlord and because they life quiet some time, you could create more Broodlings and then just send this troop to attack and maybe snipe Ghosts or Hts that are put in the front to deal with Infestors.
Just Imagine a typical stalemate on Daybreak and a Zerg would go on 250 supply and would sit in the middle and create Broodlings from there on each of the 3 lanes and try to deal damage that way. While it would look really unfair it would look pretty cool as well.
Just like the evil Terran scanning behind the Zerg army, before he moves in to attack and dropping a mule there to trigger all the Broodlords wasting a wave of Broodlings behind their army, which might end up blocking the reatreating Zerg units on the ground.
Both units create FREE UNITS and that is terrible, because they make the units partially invulnerable while dealing damage. The Swarm Host is invisible and out of range of regular sight most of the time and the Broodlord is a flyer. Why on earth should those concepts be good? It doesnt matter what you can do with those free units ... it matters what your opponent CANT do against them ... and please dont answer with "just micro more".
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Swarm host doesn't look like a fun. I wish they would remake it. It will be hard to balance anyway.
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On November 29 2012 02:27 Tuczniak wrote:
Swarm host doesn't look like a fun. I wish they would remake it. It will be hard to balance anyway.
I don't know about not fun to watch. I was watching Idra yesterday and he was pushing forward with them, unburrowing after each spawn of units. He was controlling the entire front with about 10 swarm hosts and it was pretty impressive to watch and would be even more dynamic with better players.
With a possible buff to the banshee and rework on the voiday, I think more powerful air units will really open up the game give people more options against units like the swarmhost.
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Needs more spikes and less spawning dudes 
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Both units create FREE UNITS and that is terrible, because they make the units partially invulnerable while dealing damage. The Swarm Host is invisible and out of range of regular sight most of the time and the Broodlord is a flyer. Why on earth should those concepts be good? It doesnt matter what you can do with those free units ... it matters what your opponent CANT do against them ... and please dont answer with "just micro more".
i don't get what your arguing. your complaining that you are forced to micro around broodlings and locusts otherwise brood lords and swarm hosts are 'invulnerable', and yet you dont want the solution to involve micro?
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Swarm host sucks and are gimmicky. The problem with them is that they are expensive and offers no comparable advantage vs the infestor (req same building). Infestor cost less, cheaper supply, does aoe damage, detect, anti air (something that zerg really lacks, and no you cant bring queens with you to your enemy base an spores cant be moved half way across the map). Swarm host should evolve from roach (with an upgrade research like hydras in bw) and have swarm hos cost 125/75/1 and instead of being the lurker retarded cousin, itll just be the lurker unwanted slightly disabled brother.
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EPT
