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Active: 762 users

[Death Ball] Bigger radius, better looking?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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1 2 3 4 Next All
StarOFdadA
Profile Joined June 2012
Hong Kong33 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-16 15:18:17
November 13 2012 08:25 GMT
#1
Update:

Thank you guys. I did not know so many people replied me. That's amazing!

However, I am a noob on Editor, and I don't speak English very well... So, once again, sorry.

My original post on Blizzard's forum:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7118302351

And seems that some people have same idea and post them before me.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=377527
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=198840

Please support all these thread, and make the game better. Thank you!

----------------------------------------------------------------

(Well... I was asked to post the thread to HOTS section of Teamliquid. I am not sure if I post in a right place)

This thread is a reply to the Rock, Can We Look At Unit Movement?
(http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6573699544)

It seems that the radius of most units in game have not changed since the WOL beta, even though the maps is becoming bigger and bigger.

So, I did some changes to 5 kinds of Terran unit (for examples). Here are the videos:

Marine

Unit-Radius: 0.5625
Models-Selection Radius: 0.5

Tank

Unit-Radius: 1.375
Models-Selection Radius: 1.4375

Marauder

Unit-Radius: 0.6875
Models-Selection Radius: 0.6

Hellion

Unit-Radius: 1
Models-Selection Radius: 1

Thor

Unit-Radius: 1.5
Models-Selection Radius: 1.5

Different units in the same group


I did not do anything else. As you can see in the video, those units still clump up. But look better. (Personal opinion)

However, I also found two problems:

1. The AOE problem, of course.

2. The total DPS of the group is decreased, because the distance of each unit is larger, and units whom are in the back row are not able to attack at once. But it may not hard to solve.

Original post:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7118302351

------------------------------------

Since I don't speak English very well, I may not reply you guys' replies (if any. I don't know).
The words above also shows that players from all over the world don't glad to see the death ball. It is a kind of global problem.

PS: "Unit-Radius" and "Models-Selection Radius"are the key words of units of Data Module in the SC2 Editor.
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
November 13 2012 08:28 GMT
#2
It's still better if its players who split their units.
StarOFdadA
Profile Joined June 2012
Hong Kong33 Posts
November 13 2012 08:33 GMT
#3
On November 13 2012 17:28 Insoleet wrote:
It's still better if its players who split their units.


Yes. The last video proves that we have to split marines by our hands.
Ljas
Profile Joined July 2012
Finland725 Posts
November 13 2012 08:34 GMT
#4
Well of course it looks better. It's just that the dev team seems to be under the impression that models clipping with each other = good pathfinding ai.
MasterCynical
Profile Joined September 2012
505 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-13 08:43:56
November 13 2012 08:41 GMT
#5
Aesthetically this looks better than what we have currently imo, the spaces in between the units make an army look alot less clumped and neater.
However, the radii that you chose might even be a bit too big, I would have made them a bit smaller.

Bigger units like the Thor might become more 'retarded' when giving them commands. Units like the Ultralisk and the Thor have smaller radii than their model so that they are more easy to use and fit through more chokes and clumped armies.
This is at the cost of making units cut into each other and makes armies look even more clumped up. David Kim is actually aware of this issue with thors, in the MLG interview, he stated that "Thors actually suffer from an art issue" when asked about the mass Thor game by Thorzain.

dps/area will decrease for many smaller units significantly and aoe spells will potentially be less effective. Major re-balancing will have to occur obviously.

Another thing is that micro could become more difficult if the radius is actually bigger than the model, you might think that your unit can be micro-ed to X position when in fact it cant fit. However people could get used to the actual radius with practice.

Just a clarification question: Do attacks have to hit the unit model or just anywhere within the radius for the attack to count as a 'hit'?

eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-13 08:52:04
November 13 2012 08:51 GMT
#6
There was a custom map that tested this exact suggestion on Xel Naga Caverns. It had a thread on Teamliquid in the maps section.

Here it is.

No Deathballs.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
J.E.G.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States389 Posts
November 13 2012 08:51 GMT
#7
good idea
Do or do not; there is no try.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
November 13 2012 08:53 GMT
#8
On November 13 2012 17:25 StarOFdadA wrote:

2. The total DPS of the group is decreased, because the distance of each unit is larger, and units whom are in the back row are not able to attack at once.


You think its a problem. I think its a solution.

sorry for dem one liners
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
November 13 2012 08:54 GMT
#9
Way better than what we have currently.
I am Terranfying.
insanet
Profile Joined January 2010
Peru439 Posts
November 13 2012 08:54 GMT
#10
On November 13 2012 17:25 StarOFdadA wrote:

2. The total DPS of the group is decreased, because the distance of each unit is larger, and units whom are in the back row are not able to attack at once. But it may not hard to solve.



Actually thats how Real RTS actually work. you dont have too solve that. Is up to the player to decide how to engage the enemy and where.
bokeevboke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Singapore1674 Posts
November 13 2012 09:11 GMT
#11
Much much better than what it is right now.
Why Rock doesn't want it?
Its grack
StarOFdadA
Profile Joined June 2012
Hong Kong33 Posts
November 13 2012 09:17 GMT
#12
On November 13 2012 17:41 MasterCynical wrote:
Aesthetically this looks better than what we have currently imo, the spaces in between the units make an army look alot less clumped and neater.
However, the radii that you chose might even be a bit too big, I would have made them a bit smaller.

Bigger units like the Thor might become more 'retarded' when giving them commands. Units like the Ultralisk and the Thor have smaller radii than their model so that they are more easy to use and fit through more chokes and clumped armies.
This is at the cost of making units cut into each other and makes armies look even more clumped up. David Kim is actually aware of this issue with thors, in the MLG interview, he stated that "Thors actually suffer from an art issue" when asked about the mass Thor game by Thorzain.

dps/area will decrease for many smaller units significantly and aoe spells will potentially be less effective. Major re-balancing will have to occur obviously.

Another thing is that micro could become more difficult if the radius is actually bigger than the model, you might think that your unit can be micro-ed to X position when in fact it cant fit. However people could get used to the actual radius with practice.

Just a clarification question: Do attacks have to hit the unit model or just anywhere within the radius for the attack to count as a 'hit'?



Thank you for your analysis. But I will not able to make them smaller the next days, because I still have my mid-term exams to prepare.

I don't have the game in my laptop now. But I remember that the "Unit-Radius" is an "invisible" area which is the "effective coverage" that a unit to receive damage (No matter how big or small the unit is). The "Models-Selection Radius" is just a circle with colors.
StarOFdadA
Profile Joined June 2012
Hong Kong33 Posts
November 13 2012 09:21 GMT
#13
On November 13 2012 17:51 eviltomahawk wrote:
There was a custom map that tested this exact suggestion on Xel Naga Caverns. It had a thread on Teamliquid in the maps section.

Here it is.

No Deathballs.


Oh... Well, I am out of date.

Someone whom can play hots beta should let Rock or David know that!
StarOFdadA
Profile Joined June 2012
Hong Kong33 Posts
November 13 2012 09:27 GMT
#14
On November 13 2012 17:54 insanet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2012 17:25 StarOFdadA wrote:

2. The total DPS of the group is decreased, because the distance of each unit is larger, and units whom are in the back row are not able to attack at once. But it may not hard to solve.



Actually thats how Real RTS actually work. you dont have too solve that. Is up to the player to decide how to engage the enemy and where.


Hmmm... I am not sure. You know, there are some units who have very long range.
Glockateer
Profile Joined June 2009
United States254 Posts
November 13 2012 09:43 GMT
#15
Lower unit density is certainly needed with how crazy DPS scales right now.
GET SM4SHED
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-13 10:16:18
November 13 2012 10:11 GMT
#16
On November 13 2012 17:28 Insoleet wrote:
It's still better if its players who split their units.

Just THINK about it:
a. Can you keep your units split?
b. Does every race have something that forces the opponent to split his units?
c. Is it actually good that the DEFENDER has to split and thus micro so the attacker gets yet another advantage after choosing where to fight?

All three are clearly answered by NO and this explains why it is NOT better for a player to SPLIT his units. Micro should be the job of the ATTCKER and not the defender and thus the right way to look at it is: "It would be better if the it is players who CLUMP UP THEIR UNITS instead of the movement mechanics." This is the much better way round, because it enables strong AoE attacks and players having the choice to risk losing a bunch to that. With the current movement mechanics you "have to be MarineKing to survive an attack by Banelings" and not many people are able to do that. The "open formation but clump up if you want to" offers you the chance to have tight formations, but you dont automatically lose if you cant do it.

----

Just increasing the unit radius doesnt work unless you can force the units into a tighter formation through micro. Player choice is important and the current system offers no choice, just an "korean kids can do it" emergency fix which isnt good. So there needs to be some "random left-right-straight ahead direction" added to the movement and not just an increase in size.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-13 11:03:28
November 13 2012 11:02 GMT
#17
Looks horrible to me, I would question why can't enemy units squeeze through there and why can't I form a close formation to stop this and why aren't melee units nerfed to the ground because they now own everything due to the inability to decrease your surface area.

As for the poster above, you can keep your units split, but people don't use it often like it is magic! (especially pros don't like it because they prefer to move safely and only memorize one art of moving around that is so save they kill their own command centers with it, they have the speed though to split their units in the midst of battle even if it costs them alot of damage and control)
And clumping is easier then unclumping, atleast I find BW movement mechanic easier to master then Sc2 ones.
Defenders and Attacker both should have the need to micro, with the defender having a slight edge due to preparation time, which is given in Sc2 so perfect.

And yes I do kite with my Marines splitted against fungal.
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
November 13 2012 11:52 GMT
#18
On November 13 2012 19:11 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2012 17:28 Insoleet wrote:
It's still better if its players who split their units.

Just THINK about it:
a. Can you keep your units split?
b. Does every race have something that forces the opponent to split his units?
c. Is it actually good that the DEFENDER has to split and thus micro so the attacker gets yet another advantage after choosing where to fight?

All three are clearly answered by NO and this explains why it is NOT better for a player to SPLIT his units. Micro should be the job of the ATTCKER and not the defender and thus the right way to look at it is: "It would be better if the it is players who CLUMP UP THEIR UNITS instead of the movement mechanics." This is the much better way round, because it enables strong AoE attacks and players having the choice to risk losing a bunch to that. With the current movement mechanics you "have to be MarineKing to survive an attack by Banelings" and not many people are able to do that. The "open formation but clump up if you want to" offers you the chance to have tight formations, but you dont automatically lose if you cant do it.

----

Just increasing the unit radius doesnt work unless you can force the units into a tighter formation through micro. Player choice is important and the current system offers no choice, just an "korean kids can do it" emergency fix which isnt good. So there needs to be some "random left-right-straight ahead direction" added to the movement and not just an increase in size.
I suggest you THINK once more and try to imagine why someone could answer YES to those questions.

Berceno
Profile Joined May 2012
Spain401 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-13 12:27:07
November 13 2012 12:26 GMT
#19
it looks better,much better, and it would improve gameplay because you can't attack with ur 200/200 at the same time, so you could be able to hold with a smaller army, but d.kim and d.browder are happy with the pathing and radius..........
protoss living in da ghetto
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-14 00:30:58
November 13 2012 12:33 GMT
#20
DEFINITELY looks much better, but impossible that it would be implemented. Post this in bnet forums?
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
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