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On November 14 2012 10:36 cari-kira wrote:
i wonder how long it would take for such a ball to get through a chokepoint or a lowered depot.
perhaps some minutes.
people would yell at blizzard for that.
imagine 20 mutas flattening your main while your marines go through the choke 1 at a time to their instant death.
That's all speculation.. This should be tested before you make any assumptions like this. Have you noticed how quickly an army can get through a tiny gap in between misplaced forcefields. I rate this might not be as big a problem as you think, could someone test this? I also wouldn't mind seeing slightly larger ramps..
On November 14 2012 08:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
this looks better but you should be able to clump your units too, so changing the collision size isn't a good choice
Units still seem to clump up in those vids... I'd also like those who like clumping to explain why it might be good for sc2. Also, those radii should probably be a little smaller. If none of the races clump so much and things are balanced, won't it make for a better game?
On November 14 2012 11:20 emc wrote:
um, isn't there already a thread for this?
doesn't look like blizzard has any plans on changing how units pathing works. If anything, buffing AOE rather than nerfing it should be blizzards priority for fixing death balls. however, the spells need to be high risk/reward so noobs can't just aoe other noobs to death, but at the same time pros should be able to skillfully execute their aoe units and make other pros pay for not splitting their armies.
an example of this is making siege time longer but increasing overall damage
There is no change to pathing or AI. OP stated that he only changed 2 parameters for each unit.
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I fail to understand how making it impossible for two units to sit right next to each-other would make the game more appealing to spectators. If anything, it looks like a game from the mid 90's when developers were technically unable to draw something which resembled "real life".
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^
I don't see any fighting going on in those pictures. Not that I would expect to, but in SC2 armies are fighting and moving around a lot more than in real life.
Also, who says the Phalanx doesn't come back into style in the future?
![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Greek_Phalanx.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +Roman Combat Shields are OP
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Wow Dustin Browder, are you fucking serious!? You state yourself that it didn't change anything in the internal testing - SO GO CHANGE IT, it makes the game look 100% better and more clear to wtf is going on! If it doesn't change anything gameplay-wise AS YOU STATED go freaking change it for aesthetic's visual clarity's sake
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I don't find the bigger radii better looking at all...>_>
Not to mention I feel like it would fundementally fuck the balance between ranged and melee units to do something like this.
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On November 15 2012 01:33 Antylamon wrote:^ I don't see any fighting going on in those pictures. Not that I would expect to, but in SC2 armies are fighting and moving around a lot more than in real life. Also, who says the Phalanx doesn't come back into style in the future?
+ Show Spoiler +Roman Combat Shields are OP
because the entire squad would get blown up by one artillery shot or a decent machine gun lmao.
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When I did my military service we moved in lines, or in pairs or small teams, keeping the distance about 5 to 10 meters to each other. Why? Because grenades, that's why.
In the future that hardly matters though, targeting systems and weapon power will be high enough to eliminate the foot soldier completely. Even modern tanks can auto-target anything by heat and gun them down in seconds.
If we think logically, a world where humans from Earth are capable of interstellar travel, it's quite likely all warfare is done by nanobots and unmanned droids.
StarCraft isn't realistic, so real life logic cannot be applied. Deathballs are terrible though.
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On November 14 2012 21:24 winsonsonho wrote:
If you read some more of this thread you'll see that people have explained what benefits larger radii might bring to gameplay.
The "benefits" people claim are pure speculation. We cannot predict how this "fix" to clumping will affect the game mechanics. But we can certainly agree that AOE, pathing, group DPS and melee vs. ranged attacks will be changed somehow. When you change so many things essential to the game, without any actual knowledge of what can happen, it is a lot more likely that the effects will be bad. Because, whether you like it or not, the game we see today is the result of years of developing and testing by Blizzard and, if the solution would be as simple as making units have larger radii, it would've been found by Blizzard themselves a long long time ago.
On November 14 2012 21:24 winsonsonho wrote:
Maybe arguing against some of these ideas or bringing up actual disadvantages might help more.
Also, tell me exactly how a Deathball is anything like real life? I don't see anyone shoulder to shoulder in the pictures below, nor are the tanks touching each other..
The main disadvantage is that it has the potential of breaking the game in so many ways (I explained this in the paragraph above).
I never said deathballs are like real life, nor did I imply that they should be. What I said is:
"it looks like a game from the mid 90's when developers were technically unable to draw something which resembled "real life""
Please note how I never said SC2 is real life or anything close to that. HOWEVER, not being able to put two units next to eachother is retarded and shouldn't be a fix for anything. While it is true that in "real life" we don't have alien races or psionic special agents, we can do simple things like standing one next to another. Don't see any particular reason for which in a fictional universe, all living things have lost the ability of closing in to shake hands or exchange their rifles.
Armies don't move in a tight group while on the battlefield not because they are physically unable to do so, but because they would make much easier targets.
Deathballs should not be forbidden or made impossible through this kind of modifications. They should be unrewarding, too risky to employ (just like in the "real life" example of grenades) and so on. Changing / adding stuff to the game in order to make it advance in this direction would be progress. Making units artificially spread is not.
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On November 15 2012 02:10 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 01:33 Antylamon wrote:^ I don't see any fighting going on in those pictures. Not that I would expect to, but in SC2 armies are fighting and moving around a lot more than in real life. Also, who says the Phalanx doesn't come back into style in the future?
+ Show Spoiler +Roman Combat Shields are OP because the entire squad would get blown up by one artillery shot or a decent machine gun lmao.
Lol, owned.
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Oh god, i can just imagine all the units stuck behind buildings as their radius is too large. the siege tank looks larger then a supply depot...
I don't like this at all.. the clumping and small radius was seen as a bad thing for a long time, but seeing pros split their units well makes the game much more exciting to watch. not saying you couldnt split with this, but it caters to casual players more.
The game should become harder, not easier imo
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Notice how the back units can't be a-moved anymore for easymode steamroll? Now that platoon has to go find some other place to fight keep the DPS uptime 100%. The radius increase isn't really significant enough for units to get "stuck," it's still smooth as butter pathing. The bigger units probably don't need as much increase though. The smaller units are looking great. Bioball less susceptible to AoE, less ridiculous DPS density, so their counters like the Colossi can be nerfed. This definitely looks like a great change toward more soft-counters rather than hard-counters. It would uproot balance, but HotS is doing exactly that anyway.
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how does adjusting the unit radius affect whether or not they can squeeze through tight wall-offs?
I mean take for example the Protoss wall-off with 1 zealot betweeen a pylong and a gateway? will adjusting the unit radius cause the zealot to not be able to fit through the oh-so-well-know wall-off?
or wil the gap between the wall-off need to be bigger?
making it seem like a zergling should easily fit through but cant?
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Watching this makes me wonder why ranged units like marines, stalkers and roaches can shoot through each other anyways. Logically each marine would need line-of-sight to its target to fire.
Yea I know LOS will never be implemented in SC... there are alot of other things that can block LOS too like buildings, terrain etc. But I can't help but wonder what SC2 would be like with LOS rules enforced.
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Starcraft has never been about realism.
Increasing the radius isn't the way to fix this. Increasing formation diameter is a start (but in current meta would lower the skill ceiling).
It really is a problem of the unit pathing being too smart and too concise.In the sc2BW mod unit pushing is turned off to alleviate the clumping. With a combination of this you've got more micro required to position units which is much prettier then split asap before the fungal hits your army. That said, Blizz won't likely opt for this sort of change because it changes the entire campaign and game as we've known it. It won't be friendly for newcomers, or even lower leaguers who all of a sudden have to adjust to stupider pathing.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
It definitely looks better.
If Blizzard doesn’t bring changes in pathfinding and doesn’t introduce limited unit selection in HOTS then it will be too late to do this in LOV. Because by that time the game will be already 4-5 years old and it won’t be possible to make drastic changes.
If sc2 doesn’t improve greatly with HOTS it will lose a lot of viewers to DOTA2, LOL and real life.
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Can you try this with a bit less dramatic of a change? The problem with what you've shown here is firstly that the micro potential is far less because there is much less room to move when units are that 'fat'. And secondly, the DPS loss would be phenomenal at that size, I'm thinking right now about how even Immortals as they currently are are not cost effective in a big battle once you have more than say 8+ except maybe against pure mech, so for something that is massed even more like marine this change would basically be game breaking. I think you would need the tiniest of radiuses added to units, enough to give units the slightest of visual 'space' but absolutely no more, but even then it is guaranteed to affect balance & consequently the metagame in some way, so you'd just have to hope that the new metagame can also be balanced.
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I think this could work if you added like 5% collision size while moving, not 50%. :p
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.owensarchive.com/images/uploads/World%20War%202/HD-SN-99-02744.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.japanfocus.org/data/fallujah_war.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.chris-floyd.com/war/images/030402_warss9a_03_jpg.jpg)
