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On November 01 2012 02:25 TheLunatic wrote:
Msc movement is key to toss harras leave movement in!
The MSC is the worst thing that has happened to the PvP and PvT matchups.
In PvP, it makes Blink + MSC too powerful. You can hit very early Blink all-in timings that have high ground sight. If you don't open Blink, you pretty much die.
In PvT it is supposed to allow you move out and harrass. But if you move out, you'll die immediately to a Proxy Factory Widow Mine Rush. You don't have enough energy to both recall and then use detect for long enough to get out a Cannon or Observer. Also, Purify means that you can defend a lot of early Terran pressure (like a 2 Rax Tech Lab - Reactor) and harass (like Banshee or Hellion) with one click, which is skilless and isn't fun. Combined with defensive Widow Mines than can handle everything from a 6 Gate to a DT Rush and the game is even more turtley than PvZ. It is NR15 every game (unless they are going for a Proxy Factory Widow Mine into 1-1-1 or 1-1-2), and it is terrible.
The MSC works in PvZ, especially since early Zerg units don't have anti-air.
We can solve these issues by removing it's ability to fly, just make it hover and add some hitpoints. That helps PvP, and the added hit points make it more viable in the mid game and allow it to hold vs Zerg. Then remove Purify and put in Energize. This will help Protoss defensively, because we charge up our Sentries more for early defense that isn't skilless and boring. It also allows for other opportunities to use the energy in interesting ways.
Also remove it's ability to detect a long with Widow Mines...
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I just want the mothership core to allow me to expand in PvP...
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On November 01 2012 20:36 Leviance wrote:
The MSC flying is what it doesn't make it another bad addition to HotS but actually interesting for both players and audience
Yeah, when I first saw the MSC (the new one) in the HotS invitation, I really liked it. It was epic!
I only remember seeing the MSC when it was attached to a Nexus (and that MSC looked way too similar to the regular mothership, I like the new MSC better because it actually looks like a new unit instead of "incomplete Mothership").
Also, the fact that its abilities aren't exactly the same as the regular Mothership also makes it more like a new unit too.
I'm always for more units.
I talked about this before but one of the reasons why MOBA games are popular is they have a lot of variety and in a way, it's kind of like magic the gathering or any similar card game where it keeps getting updated with more and more stuff.
You can only chose certain ones to use in a game but it adds a lot of variety and a lot of things for players to play around with.
I can definitely understand the problem of cheese (protoss going mass carriers - Tasteless forgetting that unit existed!!!11) which is why like MOBA games, they could only allow players to select a # of units to use in a game (and the enemy players know which unit the player picked, so less "cheese" with underused units problem).
That's a bit off topic though.
Anyway, I like the MSC as it is now. It definitely adds a lot from a spectator point of view and maybe from a game point of view.
Right now, I think freshening up the game and making it more exciting to watch and play is more important than game integrity. Not to join in on the SC2 is dying bandwagon but for SC2 to be as popular as other PC games, there should be experimentation and other stuff that adds more to the game.
As for the Blink all in problems? I haven't played HotS at all, so I don't know how much of that is a problem. If they add stuff, I think it shouldn't promote too much of a specific strategy that it becomes exclusively use or it promotes another type of all in or coin flip type cheese.
My ideas are:
1. Make the MSC hover and not able to actually fly "without" having two of any of the following (basically any 2 structures from the "advance structure" tech): stargate, twilight council, robotics factory, dark shrine, or robotics bay (it doesn't require an upgrade, it just requires 2 of those structures to be built). This delays the MSC's flight ability a bit but not too much.
(Also, yes, it's possible to make a tech tree requirement like that. The easy way is to make a tech tree "alias", called "MSC Flight Requirement", and add that "tech tree alias" to the Stargate, Twilight Council, Robotics Factory, Dark Shrine, and Robotics Bay [In it's tech tree section of those structures]. Then, make the tech tree requirement require at least 2 of "MSC Flight Requirement" to be built. There you go!)
2. Stalkers can't blink up to vision provided by solely a MSC. This may seem unintuitive (especially for new players) but it's one weird rule that can be easily learned. As for how to do that via game engine? I'm sure Blizzard can add in some vision provided by what type of unit check some time in the engine. Besides that though, it could probably be done with triggers and maybe some fancy data editor stuff.
Edit - I think I prefer idea #1 regarding what other said about it being to strong early game. (It can only fly after two "advanced tech" structures have been built.)
We can solve these issues by removing it's ability to fly, just make it hover and add some hitpoints. That helps PvP, and the added hit points make it more viable in the mid game and allow it to hold vs Zerg. Then remove Purify and put in Energize. This will help Protoss defensively, because we charge up our Sentries more for early defense that isn't skilless and boring. It also allows for other opportunities to use the energy in interesting ways.
Also remove it's ability to detect a long with Widow Mines...
Yeah, that sounds reasonable. Personally I like the flying ability so I think it should be unlocked automatically after two advanced tech structures have been built. I liked seeing it move around in the HotS show match >.>.
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I really dislike this unit atm. This unit should be restricted to recall (the earlier version of it) and some macro/utility mechanic (like energize).
Protoss players should be able to handle early pressure normally like all other races without a hero unit. I know the difficulty involved in that while balancing warp gates all in but you really should fix this without resorting to units like the mothership core which should have been restricted to utility. A lot of options are there, maybe buff defensive units (sentries?), or add defensive units or even structures like shield battery, I'm not really sure but Blizzard should really work on it
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the fact that people think lore or naming conventions has anything to do with game design is just... I don't have the words
They switched it away from being nexus bound for a reason - blizzard have posted reasoning behind all changes in hots so go have a read
MSC in the role it is now is to give protoss more options. It allows the protoss to go something other than robo without it being gee I hope my opponent doesn't do something I will need detection for
It also fixes a hole in early game scouting
Lore should always and only inform art design and to a lesser extent story. Having lore have any relation to gameplay is a quick way to kill a game.
If blizzard did so protoss would be unbeatable and zerg would be able to max out at 100000 supply
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I don't think it should have the "massive" tag...
That's my only complaint.
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EPT
