EPTIdentity lost: Mothership Core - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS |
|
TheRealPaciFist
United States1049 Posts
| ||
|
800800
Afghanistan64 Posts
| ||
|
red4ce
United States7313 Posts
| ||
|
Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
| ||
|
Aenur
Germany66 Posts
| ||
|
flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
| ||
|
gedatsu
1286 Posts
On November 01 2012 17:25 TheRealPaciFist wrote: Just make sure the Mothership has versions of all of the Mothership Core's spells, and nerf the Mothership's numbers as necessary for balance. Problem solved That solves half the problem. On November 01 2012 19:37 800800 wrote: Sorry OP but I have to disagree with you. The MSC is perfect right now. It allow early game scouting, harass and require micro. None of my points concern early game scouting, harass or requiring micro. So what is it you're disagreeing with, exactly? | ||
|
cBlue
7 Posts
| ||
|
J_Slim
United States199 Posts
Zerg has overlords. Terran has scans and now Reaper vision. If we can't warp up into a base (low ground pylons don't power high ground) then at the least we need a way to have high ground vision. | ||
|
Tedde93
Sweden169 Posts
| ||
|
Tedde93
Sweden169 Posts
None of my points concern early game scouting, harass or requiring micro. So what is it you're disagreeing with, exactly? It does though, you wanted to make the MSC stuck on the nexus which nullifies scouting, harass and requireing micro. | ||
|
TheLunatic
309 Posts
On November 01 2012 23:17 Tedde93 wrote: So you want to alter the MULTIPLAYER game because of lore, I think that i just plain out retarded, no one is gonna play houndreads of hours of multiplayer because the lore is great, they are going to do it because the game is great. The mothership we have now is alot more fun and interesting than one stuck to the nexus. Your reasons for altering the experiance are just plain out retarded, and all the things you complain about could easily be explained. I'd rather have them make a great multiplayer experiance than a multiplayer experiance that is true to lore. Money statement right here | ||
|
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
In PvZ you get a free super overlord early, which you can comfortably hang in front of your base. This makes almost any earlyish zerg aggression crap. You get to see comfortably what they are doing (nice banes/slow roaches there!), you get to shoot at them already and you get a super cannon at your nexus. It removes all the tension in one part of the game from one side. Recall as it is now is also completely silly as it makes the early gateway push pretty much a must against zerg, you just attack them with your early group of zealot/stalker/sentry and you are garanteed to do damage: either you kill drones or you force units that aren't drones, it's a complete win-win scenario. You can't even lose your units halfway or be completely killed by a brilliant backstab because you can recall whenever you want! In PvT and PvP the msc is also a joke. First of all it's a cheap flying unit with an attack that helps to defend you as well. That means that the msc allows you to tech VERY greedily towards blink (you can skip the zealot no problem) and it gives vision over cliffs as well. You can basically do diehard 6:45 blink rushes now which completely ignore any defenders advantage given by the ramp. Sure they can be stopped but they still kill a lot of strategies on the spot (FE in PvP, probably stargate opening and other stuff that skips early units or relies on sentries to defend). Ironically the msc in PvP practically doesn't even help to defend this rush, the moment you activate your cannon the blink player simply backs up and waits it out or unless you packed your buildings tight around your nexus just goes to kill some buildings. Even worse, the msc completely voids any cloaked play in PvT and PvP... Making that blink stalker rush have no real counter for example. Cloaked banshee is now completely useless in PvT as well, the msc can easily detect the banshee and even cast purify to kill it if needed. But what if the msc is over at your base? well that means they are attack you and your cloaked banshee play is probably not doing so good either, even worse if you have to use your cloaked banshee to stop their attack they recall and immediately know what you are up to... The msc is the most terrible new thing to come in HotS at the moment. 1. it completely removes the potential for cool attacks against protoss (by zerg or terran) between 6-10 mins, because you have detection and a super cannon... Plus in the case of zerg you have free map awareness alerting you earlier of said attack 2. it actually doesn't help to buff FE in PvP.. It invalidates the 4gate but as a result P can only tech greedier and make stronger timing attacks shortly after which still kill a FE (because you also get vision up the ramp) 3. it's a one dimensional unit with no interesting decisions about how to use it's energy. You either get attacked (use purify) , get harassed by cloak units (detect) or you attack yourself (recall), basically it's completely obvious how you have to use the msc all the time: defensive if they attack you, if they don't you have to attack and use recall if needed. Not attacking is a waste of msc potential and thus bad, the moment your msc starts to hit 150+ energy there is almost no risk in moving out anyway.. Lore I couldn't care less about but gameplay wise these 3 problems need to be adressed. The only way imo is not making it a flying unit, that just breaks PvZ and blink play (plus warping in up a ramp can be put back). There also needs to be some economic/macro way to use it's energy so it actually becomes a trade-off how you use it, just like scan is for terran. Since you can only use it for combat purposes you are also forced to use it for combat purposes (afterall you should never ever give away free oppurtunities in a RTS). Ie kept in this state EVERY high level PvZ will either show the msc used early for the cannon or be used for a for free attack with townportal. Not using it would simply be bad play, afterall you force him to make something else than drones without any risk.. | ||
|
J_Slim
United States199 Posts
| ||
|
Tedde93
Sweden169 Posts
| ||
|
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote: I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever. | ||
|
CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
| ||
|
gedatsu
1286 Posts
On November 01 2012 23:19 Tedde93 wrote: It does though, you wanted to make the MSC stuck on the nexus which nullifies scouting, harass and requireing micro. It doesn't nullify scouting, harass or requiring micro. If you, for example, gave the Nexus-bound MSC a spell like Comsat, it is still able to scout. If you give it a spell like long-range Spawn Infested Terran, it can still harass. If you give it the ability to hop between Nexuses and throw the right spell at the right time, it requires micro. So no. It nullifies none of those things. And I'm still waiting to learn what it is you disagree with in the OP. On November 01 2012 23:17 Tedde93 wrote: So you want to alter the MULTIPLAYER game because of lore, I think that i just plain out retarded, no one is gonna play houndreads of hours of multiplayer because the lore is great, they are going to do it because the game is great. The msc we have now is alot more fun and interesting than one stuck to the nexus. Your reasons for altering the experiance are just plain out retarded, and all the things you complain about could easily be explained. I'd rather have them make a great multiplayer experiance than a multiplayer experiance that is true to lore. Not so much lore as things making sense in the setting. And I find you to be the one that's "plain out retarded", if you don't see how there is any value in that. For example, suppose that Blizzard suddenly decides that due to balance reasons, Infestor is now a Protoss unit rather than a Zerg unit. You'd expect it to get a new name and a new look, right? Or if they decided that Terran really needs a beefy biological melee unit - hey, we can just use the Knight from Warcraft 3! But you wouldn't expect it to be a guy in iron armor riding a horse, right? Because medieval knights don't make sense in a space setting. On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote: How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun. No, you were not able to give the answer. The answer is: those terrans have been captured earlier. Logic should absolutely never be fucked. | ||
|
CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On November 02 2012 00:38 gedatsu wrote: No, you were not able to give the answer. The answer is: those terrans have been captured earlier. Logic should absolutely never be fucked. So how do 8 Terrans fit into a single Infestor? Have to be pretty slim ones. Or why is a capital ship only slightly bigger than everthing else on the battlefield? Or why is a Marauder to stupid to point his arms into the air and shoot air units with goddam rockets? Yeah, everything needs logic reasons! | ||
|
Ramone
Canada85 Posts
I think I would prefer it ifyou could upgrade your nexus to have the ability to cast recall/purify. Then you can recall back to your base easily without having to rely on a fragile flying unit to do it. Perhaps make an early flying unit with detection to provide that scouting/spotting utility. You'd have to make sure it was expensive/weak enough to not be worth massing like 10 and just go win in the early game, that'd be silly. I do like the idea of an early flying unit though, it looks awesome. Cheers, Ramone Ramone | ||
| ||
