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This thread will be very little about balance and a lot about design.
Think about the Mothership Core. In particular, think about its name. What does the name hint at? That it's not a full Mothership; only the core. What might one expect from the core? Three things:
1) That it's not a ship in its own
2) That it is or contains the "power source" of a full Mothership
3) That it can be completed into a full Mothership
Currently the MSC only satisfies number 3. The MSC has abilities that are wildly different from what a full Mothership can do, and the MSC also flies around on its own. We are left with the question, how exactly is this piece of magic metal the core of a Mothership? Why is it that a Mothership, which obviously contains a Mothership Core, cannot become a Detector, when its core possessed this ability to begin with?
And why is it that the core is capable of flight on its own - what does the rest of the Mothership add then? Compare with a nuclear power plant, where the core is the thing generating energy and then you have to build a whole power plant around it to make it do something useful. This understanding of the word "core" is completely lost with the current inception of the Protoss unit.
And the worst part is that, so far, Blizzard is making this logic disconnect worse and worse. I fear that any day now we'll get a new version of MSC Mass Recall, and then the only connection between the two units is that they both fly, and one turns into the other. Might as well start referring to the Corrupter as the "Broodlord Core" at that point.
Now, the spell thing might be undergoing internal review at Blizzard already (link) and we'll end up with something that makes more sense. A MSC whose spells are similar to (but maybe lesser versions of) what the actual ship can do. That may be happening already. I hope it is. Having two such different spell sets may be balanced but it also looks stupid.
But what probably isn't happening is the return to the Nexus-bound MSC. And that is something that really should happen if the Mothership core wants to remain a core and not be a fully-fledged ship on its own.
Due to the transformation thing, the possibility for name and lore changes are somewhat restricted. You wouldn't expect the "Base Defender With Whatever Cool Name They Come Up With (Probably One That Includes The Word Void, Phase Or Null)" to turn into a Mothership. You expect it to be a Mothership Core that turns into a Mothership. So if you want to call it something else, you'd also remove the transformation thing and you'll likely end up with a situation where P can have one Base Defender Etc and one Mothership.
I say this as someone who thought the Nexus-bound MSC was the coolest idea in HOTS. And as someone who is tired of the "why does Protoss get 3 new units when Terran gets only 1". Many of us were confused when we heard David Kim say in an interview, (paraphrasing) "the Mothership Core can now fly around because previously it didn't feel like a real unit". We didn't expect it or want it to be a real unit, we wanted it to be a part of an unfinished Mothership that was unable to sustain itself. Because it was just a fucking core.
I am aware that restricting the MSC back to sitting on a Nexus might alter balance. I think it's worth it. And I also think that it can't be such a big deal, because P didn't have this early flier in WoL either and never seemed to suffer because of it.
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Agreed so much. Then, you don't have all the stupid allinfest that early PvX has become, and a lot of pimp Nexus Teleport/Recall pimp plays become possible.
Also the MSC feels more and more like a "real", better Mothership.
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Msc movement is key to toss harras leave movement in!
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It's psionic. We inferior beings aren't meant to understand it.
Also, + Show Spoiler +.
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While I think the Mothership and by extension the MsC is fundamentally broken as an idea due to the arbitrary limit of having just one- there is an obvious solution. Simply have the Mothership Core become the Mothership, and introduce a completely different unit called... I dunno... the Arbiter? Smaller, cheaper, weaker than the present Mothership, with Recall and cloaking field, etc. etc.
Also, Blizzard might as well just make the new micro-Mothership made from the nexus with Cybernetics Core an actual detector instead of wasting an ability slot on soft detection.
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On November 01 2012 01:54 gedatsu wrote:
I say this as someone who thought the Nexus-bound MSC was the coolest idea in HOTS. And as someone who is tired of the "why does Protoss get 3 new units when Terran gets only 1". Many of us were confused when we heard David Kim say in an interview, (paraphrasing) "the Mothership Core can now fly around because previously it didn't feel like a real unit". We didn't expect it or want it to be a real unit, we wanted it to be a part of an unfinished Mothership that was unable to sustain itself. Because it was just a fucking core.
Agree with this . Imo it feels silly with the mothership core flying around the map in the early game. Maybe it should only be able to move in areas close to nexi or powered by pylons.
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i actually liked when the MSC was slower... why does it have to be so fast? it can already grant such early detection, why allow it to also help blink all ins and such?
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The only MU I upgrade it to Mothership is vs Zerg and that is only for the use of Vortex. If blizzard changes Vortex, I really don't see a point.
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Well, in case you don't know, the MS does at least three things that MSC doesn't and which seem to legitimate the "floating town" added above the core :
-invisibility
-recall precisely under her, and not a nexus
-more powerfull attacks (still not that effective, yeah).
This alone is a sufficient RP explanation to your question sir. Core doesn't mean it can't fly. It simply means it's the core. You seem to think of it in the more restrictive way. But in any way the concept of "core" describes or limit by itself the extent of the powers of the MS. Though you are right telling that the more the MS's power get close to those of the MSC (this way or the other, from the latter to the first), the lesser the meaning of "core" is saved.
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On November 01 2012 01:54 gedatsu wrote:This thread will be very little about balance and a lot about design. Think about the Mothership Core. In particular, think about its name. What does the name hint at? That it's not a full Mothership; only the core. What might one expect from the core? Three things: 1) That it's not a ship in its own 2) That it is or contains the "power source" of a full Mothership 3) That it can be completed into a full Mothership Currently the MSC only satisfies number 3. The MSC has abilities that are wildly different from what a full Mothership can do, and the MSC also flies around on its own. We are left with the question, how exactly is this piece of magic metal the core of a Mothership? Why is it that a Mothership, which obviously contains a Mothership Core, cannot become a Detector, when its core possessed this ability to begin with? And why is it that the core is capable of flight on its own - what does the rest of the Mothership add then? Compare with a nuclear power plant, where the core is the thing generating energy and then you have to build a whole power plant around it to make it do something useful. This understanding of the word "core" is completely lost with the current inception of the Protoss unit. And the worst part is that, so far, Blizzard is making this logic disconnect worse and worse. I fear that any day now we'll get a new version of MSC Mass Recall, and then the only connection between the two units is that they both fly, and one turns into the other. Might as well start referring to the Corrupter as the "Broodlord Core" at that point. Now, the spell thing might be undergoing internal review at Blizzard already ( link) and we'll end up with something that makes more sense. A MSC whose spells are similar to (but maybe lesser versions of) what the actual ship can do. That may be happening already. I hope it is. Having two such different spell sets may be balanced but it also looks stupid. But what probably isn't happening is the return to the Nexus-bound MSC. And that is something that really should happen if the Mothership core wants to remain a core and not be a fully-fledged ship on its own. Due to the transformation thing, the possibility for name and lore changes are somewhat restricted. You wouldn't expect the "Base Defender With Whatever Cool Name They Come Up With (Probably One That Includes The Word Void, Phase Or Null)" to turn into a Mothership. You expect it to be a Mothership Core that turns into a Mothership. So if you want to call it something else, you'd also remove the transformation thing and you'll likely end up with a situation where P can have one Base Defender Etc and one Mothership. I say this as someone who thought the Nexus-bound MSC was the coolest idea in HOTS. And as someone who is tired of the "why does Protoss get 3 new units when Terran gets only 1". Many of us were confused when we heard David Kim say in an interview, (paraphrasing) "the Mothership Core can now fly around because previously it didn't feel like a real unit". We didn't expect it or want it to be a real unit, we wanted it to be a part of an unfinished Mothership that was unable to sustain itself. Because it was just a fucking core. I am aware that restricting the MSC back to sitting on a Nexus might alter balance. I think it's worth it. And I also think that it can't be such a big deal, because P didn't have this early flier in WoL either and never seemed to suffer because of it.
InControL : "And here goes the 30 Whoopie Goldberg BroodCores floating around being useless for the next 2 minutes as they wait for the greater spire to finish now and OH MY GOD DiMaGa is throwing down 30 spinecrawlers"
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On November 01 2012 02:25 TheLunatic wrote:
Msc movement is key to toss harras leave movement in!
In what way is it key? You'd still have recall even if your MSC couldn't move.
On November 01 2012 02:59 StreetWise wrote:
The only MU I upgrade it to Mothership is vs Zerg and that is only for the use of Vortex. If blizzard changes Vortex, I really don't see a point.
I'm not sure how this post relates to my thread.
On November 01 2012 03:46 Glorfindel21 wrote:
Well, in case you don't know, the MS does at least three things that MSC doesn't and which seem to legitimate the "floating town" added above the core :
-invisibility
-recall precisely under her, and not a nexus
-more powerfull attacks (still not that effective, yeah).
This alone is a sufficient RP explanation to your question sir. Core doesn't mean it can't fly. It simply means it's the core. You seem to think of it in the more restrictive way. But in any way the concept of "core" describes or limit by itself the extent of the powers of the MS. Though you are right telling that the more the MS's power get close to those of the MSC (this way or the other, from the latter to the first), the lesser the meaning of "core" is saved.
Core doesn't mean it can't fly, but it does mean it's far from a complete Mothership. If the structural difference between a Mothership Core and an Mothership is only some more effective guns and a cloaking field generator, it doesn't deserve to be called a "core". It deserves to be called a Mothership. Just like a Battlecruiser that doesn't have Yamato is not a "Battlecruiser Core".
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It's the power source for the Mothership. There's no denying that the Mothership itself is vastly more powerful than the Mothership Core. Personally I think it's kinda cool.
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I'm pretty happy where it is at now. The only thing I would prefer is that you could make more then one, but recall had a global cooldown that is shared by all mothership cores. Also the mothership seems like it is a lot less important in hots, I haven't needed it to beat late game zerg so far. I'm sure the mothership will be re-evaluated, and potentially cut in the future.
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IMHO the mothership core is a bad idea just as the mothership was.
All the functions of the mothership core currently involve the nexus aside from the envision ability.
Why not scrap the MSC and give those abilities to the nexus? If a mocing vehicle is necessary call it the crystal core or something, that detaches from the nexus to help detect and recall units.
That would at least get rid of the unique unit idea while still being a limit.
But really there are lots of different way to implement this all of which to me are cooler than a "mothership core".
And I feel detection would be pretty coll on the envision ability of the oracle.
Photon overload should simply be a nexus ability for 75 energy.
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why do you talk about the identity of a unit?
Blizzard is developing the units and the first idea for the MSC was to help defend against all ins.
But why does it has to be a unit with one certain role?
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It could simply be a Nexus improvement that is a fixed flying unit above the Nexus, but remove the uniqueness limit. This would obviously limit you to having only as many as you have Nexuses. Do away with the idea that it needs to upgrade into the Mothership and replace the Mothership with a smaller version of itself with downscaled abilities, also removing the uniqueness requirement. The Arbiter, made from the Stargate, would be ideal.
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I actually really like the Mothership core in its current form. Attaching it to the Nexus renders it worthless as a scouting option, and one of the things I think is best about the unit is the way it expands Protoss scouting options throughout the early and midgame.
The Mothership itself is the unit that needs fixing. People only build it for Vortex, and Vortex is a stupid and broken ability.
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This is a good example of why game mechanics are not based on lore or logic. The game is working very well with the current msc. Would you be happy if they renamed it?
edit: They should also rename the mine.
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GOOD game mechanics combine lore, logic, and gameplay. See the numerous Magic the gathering articles on the subject; some by rosewater, some by various others.
While balance may be most important, having parts of the game make sense, and having consistent lore, makes things a lot easier and more fun for players of the game.
The question then becomes, can we modify the flavor to be a better fit without sacrificing gameplay? in this case, i'd say yes, and it wouldn't be that hard.
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United States4883 Posts
I think the MSC is doing just fine right now, and makes plenty of sense where it's at. I think the main problem you point out in this article is the relation of the MSC to the Mothership itself; that because the Mothership can't really do much more other than Vortex, the MSC feels way overpowered for what it's supposed to be. I think the easiest way to solve this problem is to just remove the Mothership once we give protoss a way to deal with lategame compositions other than getting a lucky vortex. Overall, I think the MSC is a great idea, but I think Mothership was always a bad idea.
I like the idea of adding something like an arbiter back into the game, or at least giving cloaking to a mobile unit (like the oracle). All in all, things are starting to look up for protoss as the MSC and oracle are starting to make more sense.
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Just make sure the Mothership has versions of all of the Mothership Core's spells, and nerf the Mothership's numbers as necessary for balance. Problem solved
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Sorry OP but I have to disagree with you. The MSC is perfect right now. It allow early game scouting, harass and require micro.
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Corruptor = Brood Lord core XD hahaha imma use that from now on.
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The MSC flying is what it doesn't make it another bad addition to HotS but actually interesting for both players and audience
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I think they just need to remove the mothership and the ms core from the game and start to balance Protoss without the reliance of unique units. Thats truly my only desire for the future Protoss gameplay.
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They really should have just kept recall on the nexus (with a smaller radius and at least 75 energy cost) and removed the mothership entirely. The MSC just feels silly and it doesn't fit the game.
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On November 01 2012 17:25 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
Just make sure the Mothership has versions of all of the Mothership Core's spells, and nerf the Mothership's numbers as necessary for balance. Problem solved
That solves half the problem.
On November 01 2012 19:37 800800 wrote:
Sorry OP but I have to disagree with you. The MSC is perfect right now. It allow early game scouting, harass and require micro.
None of my points concern early game scouting, harass or requiring micro. So what is it you're disagreeing with, exactly?
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I think they should just remove MSC and MS (if lategame PvZ gets fixed) and bring back shield battery with the ability to recall. PvP early game would be ifxed (defenders advantage) and you could push in the early game (and then recall sentrys etc).
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having the early game high ground vision is nice. Don't have to sac a zealot or probe to see up ramp or attack defending buildings.
Zerg has overlords. Terran has scans and now Reaper vision.
If we can't warp up into a base (low ground pylons don't power high ground) then at the least we need a way to have high ground vision.
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So you want to alter the MULTIPLAYER game because of lore, I think that i just plain out retarded, no one is gonna play houndreads of hours of multiplayer because the lore is great, they are going to do it because the game is great. The msc we have now is alot more fun and interesting than one stuck to the nexus. Your reasons for altering the experiance are just plain out retarded, and all the things you complain about could easily be explained. I'd rather have them make a great multiplayer experiance than a multiplayer experiance that is true to lore.
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Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 19:37 800800 wrote:
Sorry OP but I have to disagree with you. The MSC is perfect right now. It allow early game scouting, harass and require micro. None of my points concern early game scouting, harass or requiring micro. So what is it you're disagreeing with, exactly?
It does though, you wanted to make the MSC stuck on the nexus which nullifies scouting, harass and requireing micro.
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On November 01 2012 23:17 Tedde93 wrote:
So you want to alter the MULTIPLAYER game because of lore, I think that i just plain out retarded, no one is gonna play houndreads of hours of multiplayer because the lore is great, they are going to do it because the game is great. The mothership we have now is alot more fun and interesting than one stuck to the nexus. Your reasons for altering the experiance are just plain out retarded, and all the things you complain about could easily be explained. I'd rather have them make a great multiplayer experiance than a multiplayer experiance that is true to lore.
Money statement right here
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The msc being an early flying unit just stinks and makes the game less fun.
In PvZ you get a free super overlord early, which you can comfortably hang in front of your base. This makes almost any earlyish zerg aggression crap. You get to see comfortably what they are doing (nice banes/slow roaches there!), you get to shoot at them already and you get a super cannon at your nexus. It removes all the tension in one part of the game from one side. Recall as it is now is also completely silly as it makes the early gateway push pretty much a must against zerg, you just attack them with your early group of zealot/stalker/sentry and you are garanteed to do damage: either you kill drones or you force units that aren't drones, it's a complete win-win scenario. You can't even lose your units halfway or be completely killed by a brilliant backstab because you can recall whenever you want!
In PvT and PvP the msc is also a joke. First of all it's a cheap flying unit with an attack that helps to defend you as well. That means that the msc allows you to tech VERY greedily towards blink (you can skip the zealot no problem) and it gives vision over cliffs as well. You can basically do diehard 6:45 blink rushes now which completely ignore any defenders advantage given by the ramp. Sure they can be stopped but they still kill a lot of strategies on the spot (FE in PvP, probably stargate opening and other stuff that skips early units or relies on sentries to defend). Ironically the msc in PvP practically doesn't even help to defend this rush, the moment you activate your cannon the blink player simply backs up and waits it out or unless you packed your buildings tight around your nexus just goes to kill some buildings.
Even worse, the msc completely voids any cloaked play in PvT and PvP... Making that blink stalker rush have no real counter for example. Cloaked banshee is now completely useless in PvT as well, the msc can easily detect the banshee and even cast purify to kill it if needed. But what if the msc is over at your base? well that means they are attack you and your cloaked banshee play is probably not doing so good either, even worse if you have to use your cloaked banshee to stop their attack they recall and immediately know what you are up to...
The msc is the most terrible new thing to come in HotS at the moment.
1. it completely removes the potential for cool attacks against protoss (by zerg or terran) between 6-10 mins, because you have detection and a super cannon... Plus in the case of zerg you have free map awareness alerting you earlier of said attack
2. it actually doesn't help to buff FE in PvP.. It invalidates the 4gate but as a result P can only tech greedier and make stronger timing attacks shortly after which still kill a FE (because you also get vision up the ramp)
3. it's a one dimensional unit with no interesting decisions about how to use it's energy. You either get attacked (use purify) , get harassed by cloak units (detect) or you attack yourself (recall), basically it's completely obvious how you have to use the msc all the time: defensive if they attack you, if they don't you have to attack and use recall if needed. Not attacking is a waste of msc potential and thus bad, the moment your msc starts to hit 150+ energy there is almost no risk in moving out anyway..
Lore I couldn't care less about but gameplay wise these 3 problems need to be adressed. The only way imo is not making it a flying unit, that just breaks PvZ and blink play (plus warping in up a ramp can be put back). There also needs to be some economic/macro way to use it's energy so it actually becomes a trade-off how you use it, just like scan is for terran. Since you can only use it for combat purposes you are also forced to use it for combat purposes (afterall you should never ever give away free oppurtunities in a RTS). Ie kept in this state EVERY high level PvZ will either show the msc used early for the cannon or be used for a for free attack with townportal. Not using it would simply be bad play, afterall you force him to make something else than drones without any risk..
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I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm".
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On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm".
Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety.
The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push.
I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do".
Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever.
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How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun.
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On November 01 2012 23:19 Tedde93 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 19:37 800800 wrote:
Sorry OP but I have to disagree with you. The MSC is perfect right now. It allow early game scouting, harass and require micro. None of my points concern early game scouting, harass or requiring micro. So what is it you're disagreeing with, exactly? It does though, you wanted to make the MSC stuck on the nexus which nullifies scouting, harass and requireing micro.
It doesn't nullify scouting, harass or requiring micro. If you, for example, gave the Nexus-bound MSC a spell like Comsat, it is still able to scout. If you give it a spell like long-range Spawn Infested Terran, it can still harass. If you give it the ability to hop between Nexuses and throw the right spell at the right time, it requires micro.
So no. It nullifies none of those things. And I'm still waiting to learn what it is you disagree with in the OP.
On November 01 2012 23:17 Tedde93 wrote:
So you want to alter the MULTIPLAYER game because of lore, I think that i just plain out retarded, no one is gonna play houndreads of hours of multiplayer because the lore is great, they are going to do it because the game is great. The msc we have now is alot more fun and interesting than one stuck to the nexus. Your reasons for altering the experiance are just plain out retarded, and all the things you complain about could easily be explained. I'd rather have them make a great multiplayer experiance than a multiplayer experiance that is true to lore.
Not so much lore as things making sense in the setting. And I find you to be the one that's "plain out retarded", if you don't see how there is any value in that. For example, suppose that Blizzard suddenly decides that due to balance reasons, Infestor is now a Protoss unit rather than a Zerg unit. You'd expect it to get a new name and a new look, right? Or if they decided that Terran really needs a beefy biological melee unit - hey, we can just use the Knight from Warcraft 3! But you wouldn't expect it to be a guy in iron armor riding a horse, right? Because medieval knights don't make sense in a space setting.
On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote:
How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun.
No, you were not able to give the answer. The answer is: those terrans have been captured earlier. Logic should absolutely never be fucked.
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On November 02 2012 00:38 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote:
How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun. No, you were not able to give the answer. The answer is: those terrans have been captured earlier. Logic should absolutely never be fucked.
So how do 8 Terrans fit into a single Infestor? Have to be pretty slim ones. Or why is a capital ship only slightly bigger than everthing else on the battlefield? Or why is a Marauder to stupid to point his arms into the air and shoot air units with goddam rockets? Yeah, everything needs logic reasons!
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I haven't played HOTs yet, but I've watched quite a few streams. I was most pumped about the recall ability, but it looks like it's a bit awkward to use, and easily nullified by sniping he MS core.
I think I would prefer it ifyou could upgrade your nexus to have the ability to cast recall/purify. Then you can recall back to your base easily without having to rely on a fragile flying unit to do it. Perhaps make an early flying unit with detection to provide that scouting/spotting utility. You'd have to make sure it was expensive/weak enough to not be worth massing like 10 and just go win in the early game, that'd be silly. I do like the idea of an early flying unit though, it looks awesome.
Cheers,
Ramone
Ramone
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On November 02 2012 00:25 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever.
I don't agree that zerg can't all-in or be aggresive versus protoss for example a banelingbust is still going to be just as powerful, I'm assuming it is backed up by lings, since the mothership core costs 100 gas you will at the point of have one less sentry and as long as the wall gets destroyed by the banelings the MSC doesn't actually matter that much, the MSCs basic attack is so low that it will take ages for it to kill lings and by the time the attack hits the msc shouldn't have 200 energy so it can only buff one nexus which is pretty bad when you have lings in your base since they can just run to other nexus until the buff has run out. The hard part about this would be denying the protoss scouting with his core but this could be done by getting an extra queen, this is something protoss often have to do against zerg (get an early stalker) if you want hide tech or crucial information. And I would say that there is veriety because you have to choose between defending and attacking, the MSC doens't have unlimited energy and recall and the nexus buff both take alot of energy to use.
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why so much emphasize the CONCEPT ? is not single player , it should not be balanced around " how does it feel " or how does it integrate into concept of a race or in lore .
i suggest changing msc name into :
+ Show Spoiler + .
and it would make no difference . nobody cares whats the name or how it looks , for example look @ sentry . is not really a strong guardian is it ? neighter it looks like a sentry . is just a ball with armor . and it shoots solar beams . yet nobody complaining . ofc you can bring stuff up if you want it out of the game but i find its role very important in the current state of the game .
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On November 02 2012 00:46 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:38 gedatsu wrote:On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote:
How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun. No, you were not able to give the answer. The answer is: those terrans have been captured earlier. Logic should absolutely never be fucked. So how do 8 Terrans fit into a single Infestor? Have to be pretty slim ones. Or why is a capital ship only slightly bigger than everthing else on the battlefield? Or why is a Marauder to stupid to point his arms into the air and shoot air units with goddam rockets? Yeah, everything needs logic reasons!
I don't have a hard time seeing how 8 terrans fit in one Infestor. The Infestor is a big creature. The marauder's rockets may not have enough thrust to overcome gravity. Your only real point is about the size of the capital ships, but guess what. They are not the size of a marine. Why? Because that wouldn't make any sense in the setting. They are as large as they can be without it becoming a gameplay problem. That same design philosophy should be followed with the MSC too. "It didn't feel like a real unit" is a different (and bad) reason.
On November 02 2012 00:59 xsnac wrote:why so much emphasize the CONCEPT ? is not single player , it should not be balanced around " how does it feel " or how does it integrate into concept of a race or in lore . i suggest changing msc name into : + Show Spoiler + . and it would make no difference . nobody cares whats the name or how it looks , for example look @ sentry . is not really a strong guardian is it ? neighter it looks like a sentry . is just a ball with armor . and it shoots solar beams . yet nobody complaining . ofc you can bring stuff up if you want it out of the game but i find its role very important in the current state of the game .
Nobody has said it should be balanced around "how it feels". I'm saying it should feel right, which at the moment, it does not.
Sentry just means guard or watcher, and the unit we have is exactly that. There is no way that a piece of technology called sentry of alien origin is "supposed to look" so I don't understand why you claim it doesn't look like one. And I guarantee that people would care if the unit was called Zeratul's left ball. There is a reason Blizzard spends time on naming their units.
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On November 02 2012 01:04 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:46 CruelZeratul wrote:On November 02 2012 00:38 gedatsu wrote:On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote:
How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun. No, you were not able to give the answer. The answer is: those terrans have been captured earlier. Logic should absolutely never be fucked. So how do 8 Terrans fit into a single Infestor? Have to be pretty slim ones. Or why is a capital ship only slightly bigger than everthing else on the battlefield? Or why is a Marauder to stupid to point his arms into the air and shoot air units with goddam rockets? Yeah, everything needs logic reasons! I don't have a hard time seeing how 8 terrans fit in one Infestor. The Infestor is a big creature. The marauder's rockets may not have enough thrust to overcome gravity. Your only real point is about the size of the capital ships, but guess what. They are not the size of a marine. Why? Because that wouldn't make any sense in the setting. They are as large as they can be without it becoming a gameplay problem. That same design philosophy should be followed with the MSC too. "It didn't feel like a real unit" is a different (and bad) reason. Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:59 xsnac wrote:why so much emphasize the CONCEPT ? is not single player , it should not be balanced around " how does it feel " or how does it integrate into concept of a race or in lore . i suggest changing msc name into : + Show Spoiler + . and it would make no difference . nobody cares whats the name or how it looks , for example look @ sentry . is not really a strong guardian is it ? neighter it looks like a sentry . is just a ball with armor . and it shoots solar beams . yet nobody complaining . ofc you can bring stuff up if you want it out of the game but i find its role very important in the current state of the game . Nobody has said it should be balanced around "how it feels". I'm saying it should feel right, which at the moment, it does not. Sentry just means guard or watcher, and the unit we have is exactly that. There is no way that a piece of technology called sentry of alien origin is "supposed to look" so I don't understand why you claim it doesn't look like one. And I guarantee that people would care if the unit was called Zeratul's left ball. There is a reason Blizzard spends time on naming their units.
ok then explain : sentry is ok so small becose is alien . but mothership core is not ok cuz you certanly know how a protoss ship looks like or a mothership core . this makes no sense . you would be better off making a pool asking ppl : does mothership core looks like a Core of a ship ? and see if ppl say yes or not . then decide to make a thread about how it feels .
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1. The mothership core's abilities should be transferred to the nexus. IMO in mid-lategame engagements its extremely easy for your opponent to snipe the MSC leaving you screwed if you were planning on a recall. It is also a pain in the ass to switch screens to the nexus when you want to recall using the current model.
2. Bring back energize. This was my favourite addition to the game. It gives protoss a lot of flexibility. For example: Oh im getting rushed, energize nexus and chrono warpgates. Oh i need storm faster energize nexus chrono storm constantly, or energize HT for ful energy. Behind in Econ? Chrono out probes faster.
3. Remove cloaking field from mothership. This ruins lategame pvp. Late game pvp turns into an observer sniping contest. It is ridiculous. You can have a massive lead but lose because he sniped your obs.
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On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote:
How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun.
As a spectator-only SC2 guy, I can tell you that still fucking bothers me every time lol
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On November 02 2012 00:59 xsnac wrote:why so much emphasize the CONCEPT ? is not single player , it should not be balanced around " how does it feel " or how does it integrate into concept of a race or in lore . i suggest changing msc name into : + Show Spoiler + . and it would make no difference . nobody cares whats the name or how it looks , for example look @ sentry . is not really a strong guardian is it ? neighter it looks like a sentry . is just a ball with armor . and it shoots solar beams . yet nobody complaining . ofc you can bring stuff up if you want it out of the game but i find its role very important in the current state of the game .
OMG i am so glad I clicked on that spoiler hahaha
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I don't see why you think it doesn't feel right as far as being a 'core' of a Mothership. Makes sense to me
It is the core of the mothership. It provides all the basic essentials for a ship: power and flight. As far as it's ability to fly, that's Protoss Technology, also used in many of their other units: probes, sentries, observes, oracles. They all hover with a spinning sphere at their center. Just like MSC.
The powers would obviously be different from the Mothership. When the core upgrades (which locks it in place and takes time) all the powers would be rerouted or redirected to different parts of the ship, or to power different technologies (to produce a cloaking field perhaps needs a machine several times the size of the core)
To say that it doesn't "feel" right is silly and subjective.
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Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 23:17 Tedde93 wrote:
So you want to alter the MULTIPLAYER game because of lore, I think that i just plain out retarded, no one is gonna play houndreads of hours of multiplayer because the lore is great, they are going to do it because the game is great. The msc we have now is alot more fun and interesting than one stuck to the nexus. Your reasons for altering the experiance are just plain out retarded, and all the things you complain about could easily be explained. I'd rather have them make a great multiplayer experiance than a multiplayer experiance that is true to lore. Not so much lore as things making sense in the setting. And I find you to be the one that's "plain out retarded", if you don't see how there is any value in that. For example, suppose that Blizzard suddenly decides that due to balance reasons, Infestor is now a Protoss unit rather than a Zerg unit. You'd expect it to get a new name and a new look, right? Or if they decided that Terran really needs a beefy biological melee unit - hey, we can just use the Knight from Warcraft 3! But you wouldn't expect it to be a guy in iron armor riding a horse, right? Because medieval knights don't make sense in a space setting.
It is SO easy to make things make sense in a world you have full control over so I don't see this as a problem whatsoever for example if you just copied over infestors to protoss this could be explained perhaps by the infestors in someway got a free will and broke away from the main zerg race and created a treaty with protoss for protection in exchange for their battle support.
Sure the warcraft 3 knight as it is would not make sense in the game but it is only a graphical problem, if you keep all the stats and just change the appearance to maybe a marouder with a lance/sword(plasma) riding one of those panther things you still have the same ground unit but graphically tweeked so that it makes sense. The fact that the MSC doesn't make sense doesn't matter since it as I said before SO easy to make it make sense and whethear it makes sense or not is not objective the only limiting factor is your imagination.
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I say get a cool and fun mechanic (which I believe they are pretty close to now--if not there), and then figure out how to make the lore fit. They can always change the name, model, and animations if they end up with a sweet unit that doesn't make sense as a "Mothership Core."
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Much to do about nothing.
"Worry is debt paid in advance on a debt you may never owe."
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On November 02 2012 00:25 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever.
I never understood people's fascination with trying rid the game of things that toss is always going to want to get. Who cares if the Mothership Core is something that people make every game? Would you like it if they took away your Orbital Command because there is never a reason NOT to get it?
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I agree with everything you said about lore. I think it's really goofy that the Mothership Core is faster than the Mothership (actually, is it? if feels like it is to me). I liked it much better when it was extremely slow, but purify was much more powerful. Energize on nexus was one of my favorite things about it because having so many chronoboosts makes anything possible.
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On November 01 2012 21:55 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 17:25 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
Just make sure the Mothership has versions of all of the Mothership Core's spells, and nerf the Mothership's numbers as necessary for balance. Problem solved That solves half the problem. Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 19:37 800800 wrote:
Sorry OP but I have to disagree with you. The MSC is perfect right now. It allow early game scouting, harass and require micro. None of my points concern early game scouting, harass or requiring micro. So what is it you're disagreeing with, exactly?
That is has a purpose and a role in the game.
-edit-
If you, for example, gave the Nexus-bound MSC a spell like Comsat, it is still able to scout. If you give it a spell like long-range Spawn Infested Terran, it can still harass. If you give it the ability to hop between Nexuses and throw the right spell at the right time, it requires micro.
ok now you're just trolling us.
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On November 02 2012 05:18 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:25 Markwerf wrote:On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever. I never understood people's fascination with trying rid the game of things that toss is always going to want to get. Who cares if the Mothership Core is something that people make every game? Would you like it if they took away your Orbital Command because there is never a reason NOT to get it?
Things you always want to get are fine I don't have any complaints about that. Units or mechanisms that have a profound impact on how the game plays out should be more interesting though, orbital is just an economic boost and even that features some choosing between MULEs and scans. I think it will become silly very soon to see fake attacks with recall in every game soon because that's the logical result:
You always get the MSC because it;s so good => it's energy is only of use if you get attacked or if you use recall => you get a lot of attacks with recall because you might as well use the energy anyway..
That's fun for a while because recall is cool but attacks should be a more complicated decision imo, there should be some risk reward balancing going on. Recall as it doesn;t really have that as pretty much the worst risk is recalling and losing 100 energy if you control well, which is probably irrelevant as that energy has no other use anyway..
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On November 02 2012 08:16 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 05:18 Fig wrote:On November 02 2012 00:25 Markwerf wrote:On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever. I never understood people's fascination with trying rid the game of things that toss is always going to want to get. Who cares if the Mothership Core is something that people make every game? Would you like it if they took away your Orbital Command because there is never a reason NOT to get it? Things you always want to get are fine I don't have any complaints about that. Units or mechanisms that have a profound impact on how the game plays out should be more interesting though, orbital is just an economic boost and even that features some choosing between MULEs and scans. I think it will become silly very soon to see fake attacks with recall in every game soon because that's the logical result: You always get the MSC because it;s so good => it's energy is only of use if you get attacked or if you use recall => you get a lot of attacks with recall because you might as well use the energy anyway.. That's fun for a while because recall is cool but attacks should be a more complicated decision imo, there should be some risk reward balancing going on. Recall as it doesn;t really have that as pretty much the worst risk is recalling and losing 100 energy if you control well, which is probably irrelevant as that energy has no other use anyway..
I see what you're saying with regards to the energy. I agree, right now all of the Mothership Core abilities are reactionary, which means there isn't really any tension anymore. Back when the Mothership Core had Energize, this was not a problem, because waiting to use recall had a high opportunity cost. You could have had much better production with those extra chrono boosts. I'm all for having Energize back. I actually think it would be perfectly fine now, since the building laser of the Oracle works better in groups. There wouldn't be much use to having one of your few Oracles with max energy, since the opponent could just focus on that one, seeing that the others will run out first.
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What if the MsC were modified to recall a max of 10 or 12 units? This would make the MsC a strong early threat that becomes only a light-medium harassment unit in the mid-game. Then make the full Mothership capable of recalling much much larger armies.
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On November 01 2012 23:42 Markwerf wrote:
The msc being an early flying unit just stinks and makes the game less fun.
In PvZ you get a free super overlord early, which you can comfortably hang in front of your base. This makes almost any earlyish zerg aggression crap. You get to see comfortably what they are doing (nice banes/slow roaches there!), you get to shoot at them already and you get a super cannon at your nexus. It removes all the tension in one part of the game from one side. Recall as it is now is also completely silly as it makes the early gateway push pretty much a must against zerg, you just attack them with your early group of zealot/stalker/sentry and you are garanteed to do damage: either you kill drones or you force units that aren't drones, it's a complete win-win scenario. You can't even lose your units halfway or be completely killed by a brilliant backstab because you can recall whenever you want!
In PvT and PvP the msc is also a joke. First of all it's a cheap flying unit with an attack that helps to defend you as well. That means that the msc allows you to tech VERY greedily towards blink (you can skip the zealot no problem) and it gives vision over cliffs as well. You can basically do diehard 6:45 blink rushes now which completely ignore any defenders advantage given by the ramp. Sure they can be stopped but they still kill a lot of strategies on the spot (FE in PvP, probably stargate opening and other stuff that skips early units or relies on sentries to defend). Ironically the msc in PvP practically doesn't even help to defend this rush, the moment you activate your cannon the blink player simply backs up and waits it out or unless you packed your buildings tight around your nexus just goes to kill some buildings.
Even worse, the msc completely voids any cloaked play in PvT and PvP... Making that blink stalker rush have no real counter for example. Cloaked banshee is now completely useless in PvT as well, the msc can easily detect the banshee and even cast purify to kill it if needed. But what if the msc is over at your base? well that means they are attack you and your cloaked banshee play is probably not doing so good either, even worse if you have to use your cloaked banshee to stop their attack they recall and immediately know what you are up to...
The msc is the most terrible new thing to come in HotS at the moment.
1. it completely removes the potential for cool attacks against protoss (by zerg or terran) between 6-10 mins, because you have detection and a super cannon... Plus in the case of zerg you have free map awareness alerting you earlier of said attack
2. it actually doesn't help to buff FE in PvP.. It invalidates the 4gate but as a result P can only tech greedier and make stronger timing attacks shortly after which still kill a FE (because you also get vision up the ramp)
3. it's a one dimensional unit with no interesting decisions about how to use it's energy. You either get attacked (use purify) , get harassed by cloak units (detect) or you attack yourself (recall), basically it's completely obvious how you have to use the msc all the time: defensive if they attack you, if they don't you have to attack and use recall if needed. Not attacking is a waste of msc potential and thus bad, the moment your msc starts to hit 150+ energy there is almost no risk in moving out anyway..
Lore I couldn't care less about but gameplay wise these 3 problems need to be adressed. The only way imo is not making it a flying unit, that just breaks PvZ and blink play (plus warping in up a ramp can be put back). There also needs to be some economic/macro way to use it's energy so it actually becomes a trade-off how you use it, just like scan is for terran. Since you can only use it for combat purposes you are also forced to use it for combat purposes (afterall you should never ever give away free oppurtunities in a RTS). Ie kept in this state EVERY high level PvZ will either show the msc used early for the cannon or be used for a for free attack with townportal. Not using it would simply be bad play, afterall you force him to make something else than drones without any risk..
PvZ -
"free super overlord early" - its 100/100, takes 3 supply, blocks the construction of almost 2 workers, and is only available after your Core is finished. It's nothing like an overlord, it's not free, and it's not all that early.
"This makes almost any earlyish zerg aggression crap" - It takes more than 16 seconds for the MsC to kill one roach. Realistically, this means if it spots roaches on the other side of the map, it won't even kill one (with pathing it might kill one) before it reaches your base. Yes, you do get a Purify, which is really, really good - but as you mentioned in PvP, they can also just back off and wait it out. Maybe that means their attack falters, but it also means that protoss doesn't have to play guessing games and try to figure out how many cannons they need to beat the rush before it gets there. And as you mention later, if they're using purify, it means there's going to be a large window before they can use recall. And speaking of recall...
"Recall as it is now is also completely silly as it makes the early gateway push pretty much a must against zerg, you just attack them with your early group of zealot/stalker/sentry and you are garanteed to do damage" - you'd be guaranteed to do damage in WoL, too. The difference is that before if the zerg was ready (let's not kid ourselves - flanking with speedlings isn't exactly difficult micro), you were all-in because you can never recover from losing your whole army AND being behind on workers. This way, you force them to have an army, neither of you need to lose it, and you can stop them from making nothing but drones. Isn't this the way we're supposed to be able to play against zerg in non-allin games? Do you have anything to show that early gateway/MsC aggression necessarily puts zerg behind economically?
PvP
"First of all it's a cheap flying unit with an attack that helps to defend you as well. That means that the msc allows you to tech VERY greedily towards blink (you can skip the zealot no problem) and it gives vision over cliffs as well. You can basically do diehard 6:45 blink rushes now which completely ignore any defenders advantage given by the ramp. Sure they can be stopped but they still kill a lot of strategies on the spot (FE in PvP, probably stargate opening and other stuff that skips early units or relies on sentries to defend). Ironically the msc in PvP practically doesn't even help to defend this rush, the moment you activate your cannon the blink player simply backs up and waits it out or unless you packed your buildings tight around your nexus just goes to kill some buildings."
You can practically skip the zealot now if you scout no early shenanigans. Your implication that this implies "VERY" greedy play seems a bit odd to me (I don't think of current metagame PvP as a matchup where any kind of "greedy play" is actually greedy - it's just greedy in PvP because PvP still has issues going beyond one base play). By 6:45, your opponent will have a Purify up. If you back up, he'll take the 60 seconds you give him to chrono out Immortals (heck even a pheonix opener can have a good few Immortals by 8 minutes-ish). If you go blink all-in and your opponent goes 1-gate FE, is he supposed to hold? I'd like a game where we can expand in PvP without being way behind in ability to defend - but I'm not sure tech build into expand (with purify to back you up) doesn't get you there. Oh yeah, and DTs in PvP are just as bad for the zealot/archon push as they are for the stealth anyway. I think zealot/archon will still remain good.
PvT
Are you really going to weep for cloaked banshee openers or the death of the mandatory Robo in PvT? Personally, I don't like Colossi. Going Robo in PvT means you make Colossi. How many years have we done this now? Not to mention that your suggestion of "just back off" remains perfectly valid here. Envision costs 50 energy which takes 90 seconds to generate. If you hit before the MsC has 120-ish energy, you can force away the detection before they can get an observer.
I like the MsC. The things you're listing as "proof" that the MsC is bad seem like things which will not actually be bad for the game.
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I totally agree with the OP, the Mothership Core just doesn't feel right. A lot of arguments here are listing the harrassing and mobility capability of the MsC, which is certainly a very nice thing to have as a Protoss in the early game, but why does it have to be the Mothership Core filling that role? Being the Core of the Mothership it should be in itself something potent and scary, but lacking the capabilities of a full-fledged Mothership: it's not supposed to be harrassing, it's supposed to be sitting down, slow, and defend your base.
For one thing, it appears to me that the way Mass Recall works now is completely lacking logic: the Mothership Core should be a defensive unit (someone here said it was designed to help Protoss deal with early all ins). It should be slow, and should sit back at your base, being able to recall your army back in case the army is in a dire spot or there is a counter attack going on. That's why it can empower a Nexus: it's the watch of your base. It's supposed to stay there.
On the other hand, moving on to the late game, the full-fledged Mothership should be designed to move along with your army (hence it has a cloaking field): it should be a powerful addition to your composition, dealing damage and being able to warp back at the Nexus if need be with the whole army.
Right now the Mass Recall structure simply doesn't make sense: if you want it to work in a way that it warps units TO the Mothership, then there are only two explainations:
1. Either you want the Mothership to sit back at home and take your army out of trouble (hence recall)
2. Or you want it to make powerful surprise attacks where a whole army can in theory teleport anywhere on the map.
The (1) doesn't work because the way the Mothership is designed right now it is a clear addition to your army, while the MsC should be the one sitting at your home. Number (2) on the other hand doesn't work as well, because, being slow, the Mothership doesn't have the mobility to fill this role; mobility which, in turn, has been given to the MsC whose role is supposed to be the defender sitting back in the base.
I don't agree that lore should ignored in favour of Multiplayer; I mean, I don't agree such an issue exist. You can both build a balanced experience AND make sense: rather, lore is going to give you good ideas and intuitions about how the game could evolve.
But that's just my two cents.
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I think the mother ship core in its current design is the coolest unit that opens new unit maneuvers apm capabilities and critical decision making in an otherwise boring early game.yes do what must be done to the numbers to balance it but leave functionality as is.
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On November 01 2012 02:25 TheLunatic wrote:
Msc movement is key to toss harras leave movement in!
The MSC is the worst thing that has happened to the PvP and PvT matchups.
In PvP, it makes Blink + MSC too powerful. You can hit very early Blink all-in timings that have high ground sight. If you don't open Blink, you pretty much die.
In PvT it is supposed to allow you move out and harrass. But if you move out, you'll die immediately to a Proxy Factory Widow Mine Rush. You don't have enough energy to both recall and then use detect for long enough to get out a Cannon or Observer. Also, Purify means that you can defend a lot of early Terran pressure (like a 2 Rax Tech Lab - Reactor) and harass (like Banshee or Hellion) with one click, which is skilless and isn't fun. Combined with defensive Widow Mines than can handle everything from a 6 Gate to a DT Rush and the game is even more turtley than PvZ. It is NR15 every game (unless they are going for a Proxy Factory Widow Mine into 1-1-1 or 1-1-2), and it is terrible.
The MSC works in PvZ, especially since early Zerg units don't have anti-air.
We can solve these issues by removing it's ability to fly, just make it hover and add some hitpoints. That helps PvP, and the added hit points make it more viable in the mid game and allow it to hold vs Zerg. Then remove Purify and put in Energize. This will help Protoss defensively, because we charge up our Sentries more for early defense that isn't skilless and boring. It also allows for other opportunities to use the energy in interesting ways.
Also remove it's ability to detect a long with Widow Mines...
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I just want the mothership core to allow me to expand in PvP...
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On November 01 2012 20:36 Leviance wrote:
The MSC flying is what it doesn't make it another bad addition to HotS but actually interesting for both players and audience
Yeah, when I first saw the MSC (the new one) in the HotS invitation, I really liked it. It was epic!
I only remember seeing the MSC when it was attached to a Nexus (and that MSC looked way too similar to the regular mothership, I like the new MSC better because it actually looks like a new unit instead of "incomplete Mothership").
Also, the fact that its abilities aren't exactly the same as the regular Mothership also makes it more like a new unit too.
I'm always for more units.
I talked about this before but one of the reasons why MOBA games are popular is they have a lot of variety and in a way, it's kind of like magic the gathering or any similar card game where it keeps getting updated with more and more stuff.
You can only chose certain ones to use in a game but it adds a lot of variety and a lot of things for players to play around with.
I can definitely understand the problem of cheese (protoss going mass carriers - Tasteless forgetting that unit existed!!!11) which is why like MOBA games, they could only allow players to select a # of units to use in a game (and the enemy players know which unit the player picked, so less "cheese" with underused units problem).
That's a bit off topic though.
Anyway, I like the MSC as it is now. It definitely adds a lot from a spectator point of view and maybe from a game point of view.
Right now, I think freshening up the game and making it more exciting to watch and play is more important than game integrity. Not to join in on the SC2 is dying bandwagon but for SC2 to be as popular as other PC games, there should be experimentation and other stuff that adds more to the game.
As for the Blink all in problems? I haven't played HotS at all, so I don't know how much of that is a problem. If they add stuff, I think it shouldn't promote too much of a specific strategy that it becomes exclusively use or it promotes another type of all in or coin flip type cheese.
My ideas are:
1. Make the MSC hover and not able to actually fly "without" having two of any of the following (basically any 2 structures from the "advance structure" tech): stargate, twilight council, robotics factory, dark shrine, or robotics bay (it doesn't require an upgrade, it just requires 2 of those structures to be built). This delays the MSC's flight ability a bit but not too much.
(Also, yes, it's possible to make a tech tree requirement like that. The easy way is to make a tech tree "alias", called "MSC Flight Requirement", and add that "tech tree alias" to the Stargate, Twilight Council, Robotics Factory, Dark Shrine, and Robotics Bay [In it's tech tree section of those structures]. Then, make the tech tree requirement require at least 2 of "MSC Flight Requirement" to be built. There you go!)
2. Stalkers can't blink up to vision provided by solely a MSC. This may seem unintuitive (especially for new players) but it's one weird rule that can be easily learned. As for how to do that via game engine? I'm sure Blizzard can add in some vision provided by what type of unit check some time in the engine. Besides that though, it could probably be done with triggers and maybe some fancy data editor stuff.
Edit - I think I prefer idea #1 regarding what other said about it being to strong early game. (It can only fly after two "advanced tech" structures have been built.)
We can solve these issues by removing it's ability to fly, just make it hover and add some hitpoints. That helps PvP, and the added hit points make it more viable in the mid game and allow it to hold vs Zerg. Then remove Purify and put in Energize. This will help Protoss defensively, because we charge up our Sentries more for early defense that isn't skilless and boring. It also allows for other opportunities to use the energy in interesting ways.
Also remove it's ability to detect a long with Widow Mines...
Yeah, that sounds reasonable. Personally I like the flying ability so I think it should be unlocked automatically after two advanced tech structures have been built. I liked seeing it move around in the HotS show match >.>.
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I really dislike this unit atm. This unit should be restricted to recall (the earlier version of it) and some macro/utility mechanic (like energize).
Protoss players should be able to handle early pressure normally like all other races without a hero unit. I know the difficulty involved in that while balancing warp gates all in but you really should fix this without resorting to units like the mothership core which should have been restricted to utility. A lot of options are there, maybe buff defensive units (sentries?), or add defensive units or even structures like shield battery, I'm not really sure but Blizzard should really work on it
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the fact that people think lore or naming conventions has anything to do with game design is just... I don't have the words
They switched it away from being nexus bound for a reason - blizzard have posted reasoning behind all changes in hots so go have a read
MSC in the role it is now is to give protoss more options. It allows the protoss to go something other than robo without it being gee I hope my opponent doesn't do something I will need detection for
It also fixes a hole in early game scouting
Lore should always and only inform art design and to a lesser extent story. Having lore have any relation to gameplay is a quick way to kill a game.
If blizzard did so protoss would be unbeatable and zerg would be able to max out at 100000 supply
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I don't think it should have the "massive" tag...
That's my only complaint.
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EPT
