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This thread will be very little about balance and a lot about design.
Think about the Mothership Core. In particular, think about its name. What does the name hint at? That it's not a full Mothership; only the core. What might one expect from the core? Three things:
1) That it's not a ship in its own
2) That it is or contains the "power source" of a full Mothership
3) That it can be completed into a full Mothership
Currently the MSC only satisfies number 3. The MSC has abilities that are wildly different from what a full Mothership can do, and the MSC also flies around on its own. We are left with the question, how exactly is this piece of magic metal the core of a Mothership? Why is it that a Mothership, which obviously contains a Mothership Core, cannot become a Detector, when its core possessed this ability to begin with?
And why is it that the core is capable of flight on its own - what does the rest of the Mothership add then? Compare with a nuclear power plant, where the core is the thing generating energy and then you have to build a whole power plant around it to make it do something useful. This understanding of the word "core" is completely lost with the current inception of the Protoss unit.
And the worst part is that, so far, Blizzard is making this logic disconnect worse and worse. I fear that any day now we'll get a new version of MSC Mass Recall, and then the only connection between the two units is that they both fly, and one turns into the other. Might as well start referring to the Corrupter as the "Broodlord Core" at that point.
Now, the spell thing might be undergoing internal review at Blizzard already (link) and we'll end up with something that makes more sense. A MSC whose spells are similar to (but maybe lesser versions of) what the actual ship can do. That may be happening already. I hope it is. Having two such different spell sets may be balanced but it also looks stupid.
But what probably isn't happening is the return to the Nexus-bound MSC. And that is something that really should happen if the Mothership core wants to remain a core and not be a fully-fledged ship on its own.
Due to the transformation thing, the possibility for name and lore changes are somewhat restricted. You wouldn't expect the "Base Defender With Whatever Cool Name They Come Up With (Probably One That Includes The Word Void, Phase Or Null)" to turn into a Mothership. You expect it to be a Mothership Core that turns into a Mothership. So if you want to call it something else, you'd also remove the transformation thing and you'll likely end up with a situation where P can have one Base Defender Etc and one Mothership.
I say this as someone who thought the Nexus-bound MSC was the coolest idea in HOTS. And as someone who is tired of the "why does Protoss get 3 new units when Terran gets only 1". Many of us were confused when we heard David Kim say in an interview, (paraphrasing) "the Mothership Core can now fly around because previously it didn't feel like a real unit". We didn't expect it or want it to be a real unit, we wanted it to be a part of an unfinished Mothership that was unable to sustain itself. Because it was just a fucking core.
I am aware that restricting the MSC back to sitting on a Nexus might alter balance. I think it's worth it. And I also think that it can't be such a big deal, because P didn't have this early flier in WoL either and never seemed to suffer because of it.
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Agreed so much. Then, you don't have all the stupid allinfest that early PvX has become, and a lot of pimp Nexus Teleport/Recall pimp plays become possible.
Also the MSC feels more and more like a "real", better Mothership.
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Msc movement is key to toss harras leave movement in!
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It's psionic. We inferior beings aren't meant to understand it.
Also, + Show Spoiler +.
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While I think the Mothership and by extension the MsC is fundamentally broken as an idea due to the arbitrary limit of having just one- there is an obvious solution. Simply have the Mothership Core become the Mothership, and introduce a completely different unit called... I dunno... the Arbiter? Smaller, cheaper, weaker than the present Mothership, with Recall and cloaking field, etc. etc.
Also, Blizzard might as well just make the new micro-Mothership made from the nexus with Cybernetics Core an actual detector instead of wasting an ability slot on soft detection.
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On November 01 2012 01:54 gedatsu wrote:
I say this as someone who thought the Nexus-bound MSC was the coolest idea in HOTS. And as someone who is tired of the "why does Protoss get 3 new units when Terran gets only 1". Many of us were confused when we heard David Kim say in an interview, (paraphrasing) "the Mothership Core can now fly around because previously it didn't feel like a real unit". We didn't expect it or want it to be a real unit, we wanted it to be a part of an unfinished Mothership that was unable to sustain itself. Because it was just a fucking core.
Agree with this . Imo it feels silly with the mothership core flying around the map in the early game. Maybe it should only be able to move in areas close to nexi or powered by pylons.
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i actually liked when the MSC was slower... why does it have to be so fast? it can already grant such early detection, why allow it to also help blink all ins and such?
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The only MU I upgrade it to Mothership is vs Zerg and that is only for the use of Vortex. If blizzard changes Vortex, I really don't see a point.
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Well, in case you don't know, the MS does at least three things that MSC doesn't and which seem to legitimate the "floating town" added above the core :
-invisibility
-recall precisely under her, and not a nexus
-more powerfull attacks (still not that effective, yeah).
This alone is a sufficient RP explanation to your question sir. Core doesn't mean it can't fly. It simply means it's the core. You seem to think of it in the more restrictive way. But in any way the concept of "core" describes or limit by itself the extent of the powers of the MS. Though you are right telling that the more the MS's power get close to those of the MSC (this way or the other, from the latter to the first), the lesser the meaning of "core" is saved.
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On November 01 2012 01:54 gedatsu wrote:This thread will be very little about balance and a lot about design. Think about the Mothership Core. In particular, think about its name. What does the name hint at? That it's not a full Mothership; only the core. What might one expect from the core? Three things: 1) That it's not a ship in its own 2) That it is or contains the "power source" of a full Mothership 3) That it can be completed into a full Mothership Currently the MSC only satisfies number 3. The MSC has abilities that are wildly different from what a full Mothership can do, and the MSC also flies around on its own. We are left with the question, how exactly is this piece of magic metal the core of a Mothership? Why is it that a Mothership, which obviously contains a Mothership Core, cannot become a Detector, when its core possessed this ability to begin with? And why is it that the core is capable of flight on its own - what does the rest of the Mothership add then? Compare with a nuclear power plant, where the core is the thing generating energy and then you have to build a whole power plant around it to make it do something useful. This understanding of the word "core" is completely lost with the current inception of the Protoss unit. And the worst part is that, so far, Blizzard is making this logic disconnect worse and worse. I fear that any day now we'll get a new version of MSC Mass Recall, and then the only connection between the two units is that they both fly, and one turns into the other. Might as well start referring to the Corrupter as the "Broodlord Core" at that point. Now, the spell thing might be undergoing internal review at Blizzard already ( link) and we'll end up with something that makes more sense. A MSC whose spells are similar to (but maybe lesser versions of) what the actual ship can do. That may be happening already. I hope it is. Having two such different spell sets may be balanced but it also looks stupid. But what probably isn't happening is the return to the Nexus-bound MSC. And that is something that really should happen if the Mothership core wants to remain a core and not be a fully-fledged ship on its own. Due to the transformation thing, the possibility for name and lore changes are somewhat restricted. You wouldn't expect the "Base Defender With Whatever Cool Name They Come Up With (Probably One That Includes The Word Void, Phase Or Null)" to turn into a Mothership. You expect it to be a Mothership Core that turns into a Mothership. So if you want to call it something else, you'd also remove the transformation thing and you'll likely end up with a situation where P can have one Base Defender Etc and one Mothership. I say this as someone who thought the Nexus-bound MSC was the coolest idea in HOTS. And as someone who is tired of the "why does Protoss get 3 new units when Terran gets only 1". Many of us were confused when we heard David Kim say in an interview, (paraphrasing) "the Mothership Core can now fly around because previously it didn't feel like a real unit". We didn't expect it or want it to be a real unit, we wanted it to be a part of an unfinished Mothership that was unable to sustain itself. Because it was just a fucking core. I am aware that restricting the MSC back to sitting on a Nexus might alter balance. I think it's worth it. And I also think that it can't be such a big deal, because P didn't have this early flier in WoL either and never seemed to suffer because of it.
InControL : "And here goes the 30 Whoopie Goldberg BroodCores floating around being useless for the next 2 minutes as they wait for the greater spire to finish now and OH MY GOD DiMaGa is throwing down 30 spinecrawlers"
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On November 01 2012 02:25 TheLunatic wrote:
Msc movement is key to toss harras leave movement in!
In what way is it key? You'd still have recall even if your MSC couldn't move.
On November 01 2012 02:59 StreetWise wrote:
The only MU I upgrade it to Mothership is vs Zerg and that is only for the use of Vortex. If blizzard changes Vortex, I really don't see a point.
I'm not sure how this post relates to my thread.
On November 01 2012 03:46 Glorfindel21 wrote:
Well, in case you don't know, the MS does at least three things that MSC doesn't and which seem to legitimate the "floating town" added above the core :
-invisibility
-recall precisely under her, and not a nexus
-more powerfull attacks (still not that effective, yeah).
This alone is a sufficient RP explanation to your question sir. Core doesn't mean it can't fly. It simply means it's the core. You seem to think of it in the more restrictive way. But in any way the concept of "core" describes or limit by itself the extent of the powers of the MS. Though you are right telling that the more the MS's power get close to those of the MSC (this way or the other, from the latter to the first), the lesser the meaning of "core" is saved.
Core doesn't mean it can't fly, but it does mean it's far from a complete Mothership. If the structural difference between a Mothership Core and an Mothership is only some more effective guns and a cloaking field generator, it doesn't deserve to be called a "core". It deserves to be called a Mothership. Just like a Battlecruiser that doesn't have Yamato is not a "Battlecruiser Core".
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It's the power source for the Mothership. There's no denying that the Mothership itself is vastly more powerful than the Mothership Core. Personally I think it's kinda cool.
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I'm pretty happy where it is at now. The only thing I would prefer is that you could make more then one, but recall had a global cooldown that is shared by all mothership cores. Also the mothership seems like it is a lot less important in hots, I haven't needed it to beat late game zerg so far. I'm sure the mothership will be re-evaluated, and potentially cut in the future.
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IMHO the mothership core is a bad idea just as the mothership was.
All the functions of the mothership core currently involve the nexus aside from the envision ability.
Why not scrap the MSC and give those abilities to the nexus? If a mocing vehicle is necessary call it the crystal core or something, that detaches from the nexus to help detect and recall units.
That would at least get rid of the unique unit idea while still being a limit.
But really there are lots of different way to implement this all of which to me are cooler than a "mothership core".
And I feel detection would be pretty coll on the envision ability of the oracle.
Photon overload should simply be a nexus ability for 75 energy.
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why do you talk about the identity of a unit?
Blizzard is developing the units and the first idea for the MSC was to help defend against all ins.
But why does it has to be a unit with one certain role?
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It could simply be a Nexus improvement that is a fixed flying unit above the Nexus, but remove the uniqueness limit. This would obviously limit you to having only as many as you have Nexuses. Do away with the idea that it needs to upgrade into the Mothership and replace the Mothership with a smaller version of itself with downscaled abilities, also removing the uniqueness requirement. The Arbiter, made from the Stargate, would be ideal.
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I actually really like the Mothership core in its current form. Attaching it to the Nexus renders it worthless as a scouting option, and one of the things I think is best about the unit is the way it expands Protoss scouting options throughout the early and midgame.
The Mothership itself is the unit that needs fixing. People only build it for Vortex, and Vortex is a stupid and broken ability.
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This is a good example of why game mechanics are not based on lore or logic. The game is working very well with the current msc. Would you be happy if they renamed it?
edit: They should also rename the mine.
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GOOD game mechanics combine lore, logic, and gameplay. See the numerous Magic the gathering articles on the subject; some by rosewater, some by various others.
While balance may be most important, having parts of the game make sense, and having consistent lore, makes things a lot easier and more fun for players of the game.
The question then becomes, can we modify the flavor to be a better fit without sacrificing gameplay? in this case, i'd say yes, and it wouldn't be that hard.
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United States4883 Posts
I think the MSC is doing just fine right now, and makes plenty of sense where it's at. I think the main problem you point out in this article is the relation of the MSC to the Mothership itself; that because the Mothership can't really do much more other than Vortex, the MSC feels way overpowered for what it's supposed to be. I think the easiest way to solve this problem is to just remove the Mothership once we give protoss a way to deal with lategame compositions other than getting a lucky vortex. Overall, I think the MSC is a great idea, but I think Mothership was always a bad idea.
I like the idea of adding something like an arbiter back into the game, or at least giving cloaking to a mobile unit (like the oracle). All in all, things are starting to look up for protoss as the MSC and oracle are starting to make more sense.
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EPT
