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On November 02 2012 00:25 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever.
I don't agree that zerg can't all-in or be aggresive versus protoss for example a banelingbust is still going to be just as powerful, I'm assuming it is backed up by lings, since the mothership core costs 100 gas you will at the point of have one less sentry and as long as the wall gets destroyed by the banelings the MSC doesn't actually matter that much, the MSCs basic attack is so low that it will take ages for it to kill lings and by the time the attack hits the msc shouldn't have 200 energy so it can only buff one nexus which is pretty bad when you have lings in your base since they can just run to other nexus until the buff has run out. The hard part about this would be denying the protoss scouting with his core but this could be done by getting an extra queen, this is something protoss often have to do against zerg (get an early stalker) if you want hide tech or crucial information. And I would say that there is veriety because you have to choose between defending and attacking, the MSC doens't have unlimited energy and recall and the nexus buff both take alot of energy to use.
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why so much emphasize the CONCEPT ? is not single player , it should not be balanced around " how does it feel " or how does it integrate into concept of a race or in lore .
i suggest changing msc name into :
+ Show Spoiler + .
and it would make no difference . nobody cares whats the name or how it looks , for example look @ sentry . is not really a strong guardian is it ? neighter it looks like a sentry . is just a ball with armor . and it shoots solar beams . yet nobody complaining . ofc you can bring stuff up if you want it out of the game but i find its role very important in the current state of the game .
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On November 02 2012 00:46 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:38 gedatsu wrote:On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote:
How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun. No, you were not able to give the answer. The answer is: those terrans have been captured earlier. Logic should absolutely never be fucked. So how do 8 Terrans fit into a single Infestor? Have to be pretty slim ones. Or why is a capital ship only slightly bigger than everthing else on the battlefield? Or why is a Marauder to stupid to point his arms into the air and shoot air units with goddam rockets? Yeah, everything needs logic reasons!
I don't have a hard time seeing how 8 terrans fit in one Infestor. The Infestor is a big creature. The marauder's rockets may not have enough thrust to overcome gravity. Your only real point is about the size of the capital ships, but guess what. They are not the size of a marine. Why? Because that wouldn't make any sense in the setting. They are as large as they can be without it becoming a gameplay problem. That same design philosophy should be followed with the MSC too. "It didn't feel like a real unit" is a different (and bad) reason.
On November 02 2012 00:59 xsnac wrote:why so much emphasize the CONCEPT ? is not single player , it should not be balanced around " how does it feel " or how does it integrate into concept of a race or in lore . i suggest changing msc name into : + Show Spoiler + . and it would make no difference . nobody cares whats the name or how it looks , for example look @ sentry . is not really a strong guardian is it ? neighter it looks like a sentry . is just a ball with armor . and it shoots solar beams . yet nobody complaining . ofc you can bring stuff up if you want it out of the game but i find its role very important in the current state of the game .
Nobody has said it should be balanced around "how it feels". I'm saying it should feel right, which at the moment, it does not.
Sentry just means guard or watcher, and the unit we have is exactly that. There is no way that a piece of technology called sentry of alien origin is "supposed to look" so I don't understand why you claim it doesn't look like one. And I guarantee that people would care if the unit was called Zeratul's left ball. There is a reason Blizzard spends time on naming their units.
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On November 02 2012 01:04 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:46 CruelZeratul wrote:On November 02 2012 00:38 gedatsu wrote:On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote:
How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun. No, you were not able to give the answer. The answer is: those terrans have been captured earlier. Logic should absolutely never be fucked. So how do 8 Terrans fit into a single Infestor? Have to be pretty slim ones. Or why is a capital ship only slightly bigger than everthing else on the battlefield? Or why is a Marauder to stupid to point his arms into the air and shoot air units with goddam rockets? Yeah, everything needs logic reasons! I don't have a hard time seeing how 8 terrans fit in one Infestor. The Infestor is a big creature. The marauder's rockets may not have enough thrust to overcome gravity. Your only real point is about the size of the capital ships, but guess what. They are not the size of a marine. Why? Because that wouldn't make any sense in the setting. They are as large as they can be without it becoming a gameplay problem. That same design philosophy should be followed with the MSC too. "It didn't feel like a real unit" is a different (and bad) reason. Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:59 xsnac wrote:why so much emphasize the CONCEPT ? is not single player , it should not be balanced around " how does it feel " or how does it integrate into concept of a race or in lore . i suggest changing msc name into : + Show Spoiler + . and it would make no difference . nobody cares whats the name or how it looks , for example look @ sentry . is not really a strong guardian is it ? neighter it looks like a sentry . is just a ball with armor . and it shoots solar beams . yet nobody complaining . ofc you can bring stuff up if you want it out of the game but i find its role very important in the current state of the game . Nobody has said it should be balanced around "how it feels". I'm saying it should feel right, which at the moment, it does not. Sentry just means guard or watcher, and the unit we have is exactly that. There is no way that a piece of technology called sentry of alien origin is "supposed to look" so I don't understand why you claim it doesn't look like one. And I guarantee that people would care if the unit was called Zeratul's left ball. There is a reason Blizzard spends time on naming their units.
ok then explain : sentry is ok so small becose is alien . but mothership core is not ok cuz you certanly know how a protoss ship looks like or a mothership core . this makes no sense . you would be better off making a pool asking ppl : does mothership core looks like a Core of a ship ? and see if ppl say yes or not . then decide to make a thread about how it feels .
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1. The mothership core's abilities should be transferred to the nexus. IMO in mid-lategame engagements its extremely easy for your opponent to snipe the MSC leaving you screwed if you were planning on a recall. It is also a pain in the ass to switch screens to the nexus when you want to recall using the current model.
2. Bring back energize. This was my favourite addition to the game. It gives protoss a lot of flexibility. For example: Oh im getting rushed, energize nexus and chrono warpgates. Oh i need storm faster energize nexus chrono storm constantly, or energize HT for ful energy. Behind in Econ? Chrono out probes faster.
3. Remove cloaking field from mothership. This ruins lategame pvp. Late game pvp turns into an observer sniping contest. It is ridiculous. You can have a massive lead but lose because he sniped your obs.
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On November 02 2012 00:37 CruelZeratul wrote:
How can an Infestor summon Infested Terrans without havinh captured a real Terran beforehand? I can give the answer: it's a game, fuck logic, as long as it's fun.
As a spectator-only SC2 guy, I can tell you that still fucking bothers me every time lol
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On November 02 2012 00:59 xsnac wrote:why so much emphasize the CONCEPT ? is not single player , it should not be balanced around " how does it feel " or how does it integrate into concept of a race or in lore . i suggest changing msc name into : + Show Spoiler + . and it would make no difference . nobody cares whats the name or how it looks , for example look @ sentry . is not really a strong guardian is it ? neighter it looks like a sentry . is just a ball with armor . and it shoots solar beams . yet nobody complaining . ofc you can bring stuff up if you want it out of the game but i find its role very important in the current state of the game .
OMG i am so glad I clicked on that spoiler hahaha
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I don't see why you think it doesn't feel right as far as being a 'core' of a Mothership. Makes sense to me
It is the core of the mothership. It provides all the basic essentials for a ship: power and flight. As far as it's ability to fly, that's Protoss Technology, also used in many of their other units: probes, sentries, observes, oracles. They all hover with a spinning sphere at their center. Just like MSC.
The powers would obviously be different from the Mothership. When the core upgrades (which locks it in place and takes time) all the powers would be rerouted or redirected to different parts of the ship, or to power different technologies (to produce a cloaking field perhaps needs a machine several times the size of the core)
To say that it doesn't "feel" right is silly and subjective.
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Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 23:17 Tedde93 wrote:
So you want to alter the MULTIPLAYER game because of lore, I think that i just plain out retarded, no one is gonna play houndreads of hours of multiplayer because the lore is great, they are going to do it because the game is great. The msc we have now is alot more fun and interesting than one stuck to the nexus. Your reasons for altering the experiance are just plain out retarded, and all the things you complain about could easily be explained. I'd rather have them make a great multiplayer experiance than a multiplayer experiance that is true to lore. Not so much lore as things making sense in the setting. And I find you to be the one that's "plain out retarded", if you don't see how there is any value in that. For example, suppose that Blizzard suddenly decides that due to balance reasons, Infestor is now a Protoss unit rather than a Zerg unit. You'd expect it to get a new name and a new look, right? Or if they decided that Terran really needs a beefy biological melee unit - hey, we can just use the Knight from Warcraft 3! But you wouldn't expect it to be a guy in iron armor riding a horse, right? Because medieval knights don't make sense in a space setting.
It is SO easy to make things make sense in a world you have full control over so I don't see this as a problem whatsoever for example if you just copied over infestors to protoss this could be explained perhaps by the infestors in someway got a free will and broke away from the main zerg race and created a treaty with protoss for protection in exchange for their battle support.
Sure the warcraft 3 knight as it is would not make sense in the game but it is only a graphical problem, if you keep all the stats and just change the appearance to maybe a marouder with a lance/sword(plasma) riding one of those panther things you still have the same ground unit but graphically tweeked so that it makes sense. The fact that the MSC doesn't make sense doesn't matter since it as I said before SO easy to make it make sense and whethear it makes sense or not is not objective the only limiting factor is your imagination.
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I say get a cool and fun mechanic (which I believe they are pretty close to now--if not there), and then figure out how to make the lore fit. They can always change the name, model, and animations if they end up with a sweet unit that doesn't make sense as a "Mothership Core."
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Much to do about nothing.
"Worry is debt paid in advance on a debt you may never owe."
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On November 02 2012 00:25 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever.
I never understood people's fascination with trying rid the game of things that toss is always going to want to get. Who cares if the Mothership Core is something that people make every game? Would you like it if they took away your Orbital Command because there is never a reason NOT to get it?
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I agree with everything you said about lore. I think it's really goofy that the Mothership Core is faster than the Mothership (actually, is it? if feels like it is to me). I liked it much better when it was extremely slow, but purify was much more powerful. Energize on nexus was one of my favorite things about it because having so many chronoboosts makes anything possible.
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On November 01 2012 21:55 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 17:25 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
Just make sure the Mothership has versions of all of the Mothership Core's spells, and nerf the Mothership's numbers as necessary for balance. Problem solved That solves half the problem. Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 19:37 800800 wrote:
Sorry OP but I have to disagree with you. The MSC is perfect right now. It allow early game scouting, harass and require micro. None of my points concern early game scouting, harass or requiring micro. So what is it you're disagreeing with, exactly?
That is has a purpose and a role in the game.
-edit-
If you, for example, gave the Nexus-bound MSC a spell like Comsat, it is still able to scout. If you give it a spell like long-range Spawn Infested Terran, it can still harass. If you give it the ability to hop between Nexuses and throw the right spell at the right time, it requires micro.
ok now you're just trolling us.
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On November 02 2012 05:18 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 00:25 Markwerf wrote:On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever. I never understood people's fascination with trying rid the game of things that toss is always going to want to get. Who cares if the Mothership Core is something that people make every game? Would you like it if they took away your Orbital Command because there is never a reason NOT to get it?
Things you always want to get are fine I don't have any complaints about that. Units or mechanisms that have a profound impact on how the game plays out should be more interesting though, orbital is just an economic boost and even that features some choosing between MULEs and scans. I think it will become silly very soon to see fake attacks with recall in every game soon because that's the logical result:
You always get the MSC because it;s so good => it's energy is only of use if you get attacked or if you use recall => you get a lot of attacks with recall because you might as well use the energy anyway..
That's fun for a while because recall is cool but attacks should be a more complicated decision imo, there should be some risk reward balancing going on. Recall as it doesn;t really have that as pretty much the worst risk is recalling and losing 100 energy if you control well, which is probably irrelevant as that energy has no other use anyway..
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On November 02 2012 08:16 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 05:18 Fig wrote:On November 02 2012 00:25 Markwerf wrote:On November 02 2012 00:06 Tedde93 wrote:
I can aggree that blink stalker all-ins may be to powerful but that is pretty much the only thing I agree with and you could allways just plain out nerf it by increasing the blink research time. Why is it so bad for protoss to bea ble to defend early aggression against zerg, this might give the protoss the option to skip doing a ffe almost every single game just to keep up with the zerg. Nor do I see why the mothership core "forcing" aggression is a problem it makes the game more active in PvZ. The MSC isn't more onedimensional than an HT for example "Will I spend my energy on storm or feedback? Hmm". Being able to defend early aggression and allowing you attack is cool, but there should be variety. The mothership core being a hero unit and really cheap is just a must get unit now. Why would you ever skip it as it's just a measly 100/100. Like it is now it probably just banishes all zerg aggression and make games look way to similar, with never a baneling bust or roach attack and always a protoss push. I like to see active games but most of all there should be variety and tension. Both races should be able to make timing attacks at any stage and scouting should cost some trouble. It shouldn't be: "hey I can see perfectly what you're doing with this unit I want anyway which also completely stomps that attack you're trying to do". Also you can not compare the onedimensionality of the MSC with the HT. With the MSC the choices should be in how you use the unit early since you want to get it anyways, with HT the choice is do you get HT or not? The msc is designed to be a defensive boost, ie it's a very cost effective way of getting defense with the goal of opening up protoss play a bit and making them less dependant on sentries so they can't really raise it's cost. I don't care how they do it but recall should have some economic cost, make it an upgrade or give msc energy an other economic use whatever. I never understood people's fascination with trying rid the game of things that toss is always going to want to get. Who cares if the Mothership Core is something that people make every game? Would you like it if they took away your Orbital Command because there is never a reason NOT to get it? Things you always want to get are fine I don't have any complaints about that. Units or mechanisms that have a profound impact on how the game plays out should be more interesting though, orbital is just an economic boost and even that features some choosing between MULEs and scans. I think it will become silly very soon to see fake attacks with recall in every game soon because that's the logical result: You always get the MSC because it;s so good => it's energy is only of use if you get attacked or if you use recall => you get a lot of attacks with recall because you might as well use the energy anyway.. That's fun for a while because recall is cool but attacks should be a more complicated decision imo, there should be some risk reward balancing going on. Recall as it doesn;t really have that as pretty much the worst risk is recalling and losing 100 energy if you control well, which is probably irrelevant as that energy has no other use anyway..
I see what you're saying with regards to the energy. I agree, right now all of the Mothership Core abilities are reactionary, which means there isn't really any tension anymore. Back when the Mothership Core had Energize, this was not a problem, because waiting to use recall had a high opportunity cost. You could have had much better production with those extra chrono boosts. I'm all for having Energize back. I actually think it would be perfectly fine now, since the building laser of the Oracle works better in groups. There wouldn't be much use to having one of your few Oracles with max energy, since the opponent could just focus on that one, seeing that the others will run out first.
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What if the MsC were modified to recall a max of 10 or 12 units? This would make the MsC a strong early threat that becomes only a light-medium harassment unit in the mid-game. Then make the full Mothership capable of recalling much much larger armies.
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On November 01 2012 23:42 Markwerf wrote:
The msc being an early flying unit just stinks and makes the game less fun.
In PvZ you get a free super overlord early, which you can comfortably hang in front of your base. This makes almost any earlyish zerg aggression crap. You get to see comfortably what they are doing (nice banes/slow roaches there!), you get to shoot at them already and you get a super cannon at your nexus. It removes all the tension in one part of the game from one side. Recall as it is now is also completely silly as it makes the early gateway push pretty much a must against zerg, you just attack them with your early group of zealot/stalker/sentry and you are garanteed to do damage: either you kill drones or you force units that aren't drones, it's a complete win-win scenario. You can't even lose your units halfway or be completely killed by a brilliant backstab because you can recall whenever you want!
In PvT and PvP the msc is also a joke. First of all it's a cheap flying unit with an attack that helps to defend you as well. That means that the msc allows you to tech VERY greedily towards blink (you can skip the zealot no problem) and it gives vision over cliffs as well. You can basically do diehard 6:45 blink rushes now which completely ignore any defenders advantage given by the ramp. Sure they can be stopped but they still kill a lot of strategies on the spot (FE in PvP, probably stargate opening and other stuff that skips early units or relies on sentries to defend). Ironically the msc in PvP practically doesn't even help to defend this rush, the moment you activate your cannon the blink player simply backs up and waits it out or unless you packed your buildings tight around your nexus just goes to kill some buildings.
Even worse, the msc completely voids any cloaked play in PvT and PvP... Making that blink stalker rush have no real counter for example. Cloaked banshee is now completely useless in PvT as well, the msc can easily detect the banshee and even cast purify to kill it if needed. But what if the msc is over at your base? well that means they are attack you and your cloaked banshee play is probably not doing so good either, even worse if you have to use your cloaked banshee to stop their attack they recall and immediately know what you are up to...
The msc is the most terrible new thing to come in HotS at the moment.
1. it completely removes the potential for cool attacks against protoss (by zerg or terran) between 6-10 mins, because you have detection and a super cannon... Plus in the case of zerg you have free map awareness alerting you earlier of said attack
2. it actually doesn't help to buff FE in PvP.. It invalidates the 4gate but as a result P can only tech greedier and make stronger timing attacks shortly after which still kill a FE (because you also get vision up the ramp)
3. it's a one dimensional unit with no interesting decisions about how to use it's energy. You either get attacked (use purify) , get harassed by cloak units (detect) or you attack yourself (recall), basically it's completely obvious how you have to use the msc all the time: defensive if they attack you, if they don't you have to attack and use recall if needed. Not attacking is a waste of msc potential and thus bad, the moment your msc starts to hit 150+ energy there is almost no risk in moving out anyway..
Lore I couldn't care less about but gameplay wise these 3 problems need to be adressed. The only way imo is not making it a flying unit, that just breaks PvZ and blink play (plus warping in up a ramp can be put back). There also needs to be some economic/macro way to use it's energy so it actually becomes a trade-off how you use it, just like scan is for terran. Since you can only use it for combat purposes you are also forced to use it for combat purposes (afterall you should never ever give away free oppurtunities in a RTS). Ie kept in this state EVERY high level PvZ will either show the msc used early for the cannon or be used for a for free attack with townportal. Not using it would simply be bad play, afterall you force him to make something else than drones without any risk..
PvZ -
"free super overlord early" - its 100/100, takes 3 supply, blocks the construction of almost 2 workers, and is only available after your Core is finished. It's nothing like an overlord, it's not free, and it's not all that early.
"This makes almost any earlyish zerg aggression crap" - It takes more than 16 seconds for the MsC to kill one roach. Realistically, this means if it spots roaches on the other side of the map, it won't even kill one (with pathing it might kill one) before it reaches your base. Yes, you do get a Purify, which is really, really good - but as you mentioned in PvP, they can also just back off and wait it out. Maybe that means their attack falters, but it also means that protoss doesn't have to play guessing games and try to figure out how many cannons they need to beat the rush before it gets there. And as you mention later, if they're using purify, it means there's going to be a large window before they can use recall. And speaking of recall...
"Recall as it is now is also completely silly as it makes the early gateway push pretty much a must against zerg, you just attack them with your early group of zealot/stalker/sentry and you are garanteed to do damage" - you'd be guaranteed to do damage in WoL, too. The difference is that before if the zerg was ready (let's not kid ourselves - flanking with speedlings isn't exactly difficult micro), you were all-in because you can never recover from losing your whole army AND being behind on workers. This way, you force them to have an army, neither of you need to lose it, and you can stop them from making nothing but drones. Isn't this the way we're supposed to be able to play against zerg in non-allin games? Do you have anything to show that early gateway/MsC aggression necessarily puts zerg behind economically?
PvP
"First of all it's a cheap flying unit with an attack that helps to defend you as well. That means that the msc allows you to tech VERY greedily towards blink (you can skip the zealot no problem) and it gives vision over cliffs as well. You can basically do diehard 6:45 blink rushes now which completely ignore any defenders advantage given by the ramp. Sure they can be stopped but they still kill a lot of strategies on the spot (FE in PvP, probably stargate opening and other stuff that skips early units or relies on sentries to defend). Ironically the msc in PvP practically doesn't even help to defend this rush, the moment you activate your cannon the blink player simply backs up and waits it out or unless you packed your buildings tight around your nexus just goes to kill some buildings."
You can practically skip the zealot now if you scout no early shenanigans. Your implication that this implies "VERY" greedy play seems a bit odd to me (I don't think of current metagame PvP as a matchup where any kind of "greedy play" is actually greedy - it's just greedy in PvP because PvP still has issues going beyond one base play). By 6:45, your opponent will have a Purify up. If you back up, he'll take the 60 seconds you give him to chrono out Immortals (heck even a pheonix opener can have a good few Immortals by 8 minutes-ish). If you go blink all-in and your opponent goes 1-gate FE, is he supposed to hold? I'd like a game where we can expand in PvP without being way behind in ability to defend - but I'm not sure tech build into expand (with purify to back you up) doesn't get you there. Oh yeah, and DTs in PvP are just as bad for the zealot/archon push as they are for the stealth anyway. I think zealot/archon will still remain good.
PvT
Are you really going to weep for cloaked banshee openers or the death of the mandatory Robo in PvT? Personally, I don't like Colossi. Going Robo in PvT means you make Colossi. How many years have we done this now? Not to mention that your suggestion of "just back off" remains perfectly valid here. Envision costs 50 energy which takes 90 seconds to generate. If you hit before the MsC has 120-ish energy, you can force away the detection before they can get an observer.
I like the MsC. The things you're listing as "proof" that the MsC is bad seem like things which will not actually be bad for the game.
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I totally agree with the OP, the Mothership Core just doesn't feel right. A lot of arguments here are listing the harrassing and mobility capability of the MsC, which is certainly a very nice thing to have as a Protoss in the early game, but why does it have to be the Mothership Core filling that role? Being the Core of the Mothership it should be in itself something potent and scary, but lacking the capabilities of a full-fledged Mothership: it's not supposed to be harrassing, it's supposed to be sitting down, slow, and defend your base.
For one thing, it appears to me that the way Mass Recall works now is completely lacking logic: the Mothership Core should be a defensive unit (someone here said it was designed to help Protoss deal with early all ins). It should be slow, and should sit back at your base, being able to recall your army back in case the army is in a dire spot or there is a counter attack going on. That's why it can empower a Nexus: it's the watch of your base. It's supposed to stay there.
On the other hand, moving on to the late game, the full-fledged Mothership should be designed to move along with your army (hence it has a cloaking field): it should be a powerful addition to your composition, dealing damage and being able to warp back at the Nexus if need be with the whole army.
Right now the Mass Recall structure simply doesn't make sense: if you want it to work in a way that it warps units TO the Mothership, then there are only two explainations:
1. Either you want the Mothership to sit back at home and take your army out of trouble (hence recall)
2. Or you want it to make powerful surprise attacks where a whole army can in theory teleport anywhere on the map.
The (1) doesn't work because the way the Mothership is designed right now it is a clear addition to your army, while the MsC should be the one sitting at your home. Number (2) on the other hand doesn't work as well, because, being slow, the Mothership doesn't have the mobility to fill this role; mobility which, in turn, has been given to the MsC whose role is supposed to be the defender sitting back in the base.
I don't agree that lore should ignored in favour of Multiplayer; I mean, I don't agree such an issue exist. You can both build a balanced experience AND make sense: rather, lore is going to give you good ideas and intuitions about how the game could evolve.
But that's just my two cents.
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I think the mother ship core in its current design is the coolest unit that opens new unit maneuvers apm capabilities and critical decision making in an otherwise boring early game.yes do what must be done to the numbers to balance it but leave functionality as is.
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EPT
