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My take: "#SaveHOTS" - Page 6

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 21 Next All
FlukyS
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland485 Posts
October 18 2012 04:45 GMT
#101
I agree with a lot of what you said and yeah FF IMO is the most frustrating thing in the game at the moment (apart from the thor which I think is a monstrosity) anyway I would like to see the suggestions tried and see how it works out.
Gretorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States586 Posts
October 18 2012 04:53 GMT
#102
But keep in mind everyone, we complain so much about maps and how maps are created, yet we don't realize how much the units affect how the maps are created. I challenge all of you to think of a way to make it so forcefield works in all P matchups with 3rd bases, and protoss doesnt have some big advantage or big disadvantage. It's super difficult!
I am Unheard Change
Belha
Profile Joined December 2010
Italy2850 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-18 04:55:29
October 18 2012 04:54 GMT
#103
On October 18 2012 13:53 Gretorp wrote:
But keep in mind everyone, we complain so much about maps and how maps are created, yet we don't realize how much the units affect how the maps are created. I challenge all of you to think of a way to make it so forcefield works in all P matchups with 3rd bases, and protoss doesnt have some big advantage or big disadvantage. It's super difficult!

Totally agree. Maps are the way they are, just to try to patch game flaws. With a better design, diverse maps would be posible.

Two things should change about the in-game stuff (go to destiny post to check about side-game changes that must be done):

Infestor: Is the most atrocious unit in the game, even worse than ff. Remove the root on the units, jesus.

Global Dps: With the faster "in-game" time + clumped units + a lot of aoe, the REAL TIME (aka spectator time) dps, is plain INSANELY HIGH. So most battles are short as fuck, and there is no time to enjoy some back and forth pushes (a crap to spectate). Oh, yeah, and micro is much more worthless (just positioning is important), again, crappy for the spectator.
Chicken gank op
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
October 18 2012 04:58 GMT
#104
On October 18 2012 13:28 ElMeanYo wrote:
I like both Fungal and Force Fields exactly the way they are. As someone who doesn't play but has watched every season of MLG/NASL/GSL, I can say that these two spells have a great 'wow' factor when someone skilled pulls it off. And a more subtle wow when the other player micro's his units to mitigate their effects. It makes it an exciting struggle and SC2 needs more of that, not less.

This is not SC1, Blizz should not try to make it like SC1. SC2 has its own identity with these abilities and I would hate to see them changed.

how is fungal... in any way a "wow" factor.
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
Vei
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2845 Posts
October 18 2012 05:11 GMT
#105
God Gretorop, you were my fav back in the beta days, and I've liked you since then, but this post is just great. Great great great. Forcefields have completely fucked up SC2, and the game NEEDS to be re-designed around their removal.

Remove fungal too or at least the micro-countering aspect if it's needed, but god, FFs are FAR too dominant and FAR too boring and FAR too influential on map design.

Wonderful post.
www.justin.tv/veisc2 ~ 720p + commentary
sc2pal
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland624 Posts
October 18 2012 05:27 GMT
#106
stop trying to introduce brood war units ffs do you really have no other ideas than units from 10 year old game?
MarcusWC
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada55 Posts
October 18 2012 05:30 GMT
#107
Love your ideas Gretorp. Thanks for sharing
-Kyo-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Japan1927 Posts
October 18 2012 05:33 GMT
#108
I think almost every professional player that plays zerg or protoss is getting quite fed up with the matchup at this point. Lategame is either -> Mothership -> awesome vortex -> impossible to lose for protoss.
or
infestors -> fungal -> cant micro -> instantly lose everything

The matchup at end game is 100% based almost 100% based on mothership control which is clunky and infuriating. If they do nothing to change it I imagine more and more people will drift away from something that isn't even appealing to the players; let alone to watch everything instantly die with no suspense, micro, or ability factor.
Anime is cuter than you. Legacy of the Void GM Protoss Gameplay: twitch.tv/kyo7763 youtube.com/user/KyoStarcraft/
TL+ Member
johnny123
Profile Joined February 2012
521 Posts
October 18 2012 05:41 GMT
#109
i dont like the idea of ghosts laying widow mines, What ever lays the mines should come from the factory

( just my little nit picking)
Favorite players,Stephano/MVP/Nestea/Gumiho/Life/Jaedong/MMA
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
October 18 2012 05:44 GMT
#110
I love your change suggestions, mainly because you're bringing back ensnare + arbiter cloak. That's exactly why blizz wont do it though, because it's been done :T
:)
Antoine
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States7481 Posts
October 18 2012 05:49 GMT
#111
hey man it really bothered me that you had SaveHOTS# so i put the hash tag in the right place
ModeratorFlash Sea Action Snow Midas | TheStC Ret Tyler MC | RIP 우정호
IceEnd
Profile Joined April 2011
Chile6 Posts
October 18 2012 05:50 GMT
#112
How much would it changes if there was less gas in the maps, gasless expansions, or just one. Would this just delay the timings or change the units composition?. I think that with this the ability to replace the heavy gas units would be far more difficult and they may not be in the same numbers, FF are sick, because you have a ton of sentries , same with ghost, or infestors, and the problem is that you can replace them rather easily imo.
How you doing?
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
October 18 2012 05:53 GMT
#113
I <3 you gretorp, but i'm moving you to the HOTS forum section, as this doesn't really feel like it belongs in sc2 general
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
Oakwarrior
Profile Joined July 2011
Estonia31 Posts
October 18 2012 05:54 GMT
#114
I have to agree with all the points Gretorp brings up. But, please recall pre-Infestor popularity times. We did not see a lot of that specific unit around. Suddenly a lot of people were using it and very significant changes were made to how Fungal works and Neural Parasite as well. Sentry received none such significant updates or reworks. What I'm trying to get to, is that FF on its own has been, is, and will be one of the most design-shitting abilities in the game due to its sheer power to morph the battlefield. Needless to say, I have zero idea why Blizzard has not addressed this issue at all. I can see that the ability is working as they intended to and they are reluctant to change it because of the potential chaotic whirlpool it might induce in the game balance so far.

But, consider the following: HotS will see the Sentry having non-researched Hallucinations. Infested Terrans can be used to block pathing. Entomb covers minerals with an attackable unit-like entity. Never in my playtime in StarCraft II have I understood why I cannot simply destroy FF's with attacks. Massive units do not come out fast enough to matter, and when they do they are usually useless as hell due to their inherent sluggishness. I have always found it weird for Protoss to have an ability which can basically negate any sort of ground-based reinforcements (or army for that matter) from a given area. I can see how this might be cool, high-tech and lore-friendly, but honestly, from a gameplay perspective it's frustrating and ungraceful, which makes it a bore to watch. I always cringe when I see Sentries FF a ramp indefinitely and you have freaking TANKS or goddamn-near huge biological beasts and they simply slither about, doing absolutely nothing.

The bottom line is, that not even ONCE has the casting energy, ability radius or cooldown changed for FF. The only "massive" change was the vulnerability to massive units, and that's it. It's almost a non-issue as it was basically designed (how I see it) to enable the same Protoss player who laid down the FF's to clear a path with his own Colossi, to set up a new batch of FF's further in. Other than that, zero change to the ideology of the Sentry whatsoever, and that has been a mistake. This led to stagnant tactics such as FFE, which almost always ends up being a Gateway/Colossus army into Toilet, with no real innovation needed, due to the defensive/offensive capabilities of the Sentry. It's holding absolutely everything back, exactly as Gretorp pointed out. I respect your opinion immensely, man, and I cannot agree more. I can see how re-balancing or re-designing the Sentry can be a daunting task, because that would open up a lot of issues that can just be solved with, you guessed it, FF. It's bad to see map design fall into a hole because of a couple of units (Tank, Sentry, Infestor, for example) being just a bit too effective. If it's a PvX game, then it pretty much boils down to Sentries and their counters thereof. Having the Sentry in the Protoss lineup as it is now is harsh for the developers as well, because introducing new units that fit in well into that sort of balance mess is difficult - I can see why there are so many new air units.

I've had a couple of ideas bouncing in my head how to destroy/mitigate FF's in early to mid game, which include Fungal/EMP/A-click/cooldowns/etc., but I don't see Blizzard implementing those kind of changes any time soon because it's kinda more convenient to just let that unit stay the same and change only some of the others, if at all. Because, if you change the Sentry, there's a lot more to change and it will snowball from there (this is NOT a bad thing, by the way).
"Great minds go in great circles."
Crawdad
Profile Joined September 2012
614 Posts
October 18 2012 05:59 GMT
#115
Dustin thinks that Force Fields are too difficult to use.

They are completely in the dark as to what is actually going on in their game.
Nirel
Profile Joined September 2011
Israel1526 Posts
October 18 2012 06:01 GMT
#116
I think the main problem is that Blizz probably know most of that stuff, including Colossus issue but they're too afraid to change anything drastically
Oakwarrior
Profile Joined July 2011
Estonia31 Posts
October 18 2012 06:01 GMT
#117
They actually can be too difficult to use properly, but when it's done well then the advantage is significant. You have to take into account all the people who don't have near-perfect FF skills, but even then the potential of the ability remains the same (the words "enormous" and "game breaking" come to mind).
"Great minds go in great circles."
Powster
Profile Joined April 2010
United States650 Posts
October 18 2012 06:06 GMT
#118
Really good post but protoss has more problems than sentry/units relative to sentry. I think a big problem is there are so many players who still do not actually believe protoss is made wrong. There needs to be like every single sc2 player complaining so blizzard will realize they need to completely rework how protoss plays.

I doubt they will do it though.. they are trying to earn money fast not make a great game. A great game can wait for a few years after the last expansion to them..
seodoth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands319 Posts
October 18 2012 06:08 GMT
#119
god damn this post is so good im almost crying
Myrddraal
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia937 Posts
October 18 2012 06:16 GMT
#120
I think you make reasonable points, but I feel as though you are missing important reasons why they are happening in the first place.

In your musings about the Sentry and Gateway units I think you have skipped the real reason why Gateway units are weak to begin with. It's because of Warpgate negating the defenders advantage of reinforcement time. This negation means that gateway units need to be weak/not cost effective against their same tier equivalents and Sentry is actually what is used to bring them up to par, not the other way round. So if the Sentry and Forcefield are your biggest concern, I would recommend a solution that helps Protoss early game that does not come from the gateway. For example a unit straight from the Robo or Stargate (as in does not require additional tech) that deals splash damage. This way Protoss could be cost effective with a unit that still has to walk all the way across the map and requires more tech than Warpgate, so will be less effective in all-ins.

As for lategame PvZ I don't see much mention of the Broodlord, the reason why Archon toilets are used is because it is so ridiculously difficult to cost efficiently deal with Brood Lord + Infestor. With the introduction of the Swarm Host I seriously think that Brood Lords need to be reworked in some way, if they were changed to a projectile with a bit of an area of effect I think that would be fine as I feel that the broodlings capacity to "bug out" or attract fire of units is too powerful and not very spectator friendly. As it stands Zerg currently gets "free" units from Infestors, Brood Lord AND Swarm hosts, and I really think that is too much. Brood Lings + Infested Terran's are already potentially imbalanced as it is let alone giving Zerg even more free units to play with. So if my proposed change was made I would be happy to have Vortex removed.
[stranded]: http://www.indiedb.com/games/stranded
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