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On October 18 2012 17:37 Kaleidos wrote:
Great analysys about the forcefield and the spell caster role.
I don't necessarily agree with the removal of the Mothership ..what about the M.Core's destiny then?
You could merge the new unit you mentioned and the M.Core in one unit, but the problem with the Mamaship is called Vortex, not the unit it's self imho.
I think Blizzy already got the message about "we want fungal to change". The community voice hasn't been as much loud about forcefield tho, so i really hope they read this thread!
The point is you can do split vs Fungal and there is not many things vs FF that you can do. Sure you can try to flank but all they need is 2 more forcefields. You rely more on your opponent being bad with FF than you being good with anything else. I agree that Fungal is too unforgiving cause if you catch a clump once it almost surely will die. The problem with forcfield is that it stops the agression until you got BLs out which means late game in almost every ZvP.
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I totally agree that spell casters are op at the current state of the game. Units just clump up too much making those aoe spells just so much stronger. Lessening their affect would be a great change imo.
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Huh, the idea of forcefield being a slow effect rather than pathing block is intriguing to me. Namely because that's something you can balance tweak -- how slow do units move in the forcefield, forcefield effect radius, etc. It's much more malleable than the current binary state of forcefield, where it's either there or it isn't.
Gretorp you so smart.
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While I love the raven/ghost changes you proposed (even though I would be sad to never have seen HSM be incorporated in awsome strategies), I think removing the mothership entirely is to drastic a measure. Mothership is an awsome unit and I think if Vortex wouldn't hit air, the whole problem of archon toilet would have been solved. Think about it, when do you see archon toilet? Most of the time it's to kill brood lord. Since they are so slow, they can't disperse quick enough after an archon toilet and the splash damage from archons is massive.
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I'm a Protoss and I love both forcefields and the mothership. I do not consider them broken mechanics. Vortex was never even used until people realized how imbalanced infestor broodlord is without it. Therefore infestor broodlord is what should be tweaked, not the mothership. I love my damn hero unit!!!! As for forcefields it is an unperfectable mechanic. You can do bad, good, great, amazing, and then there's downright impossible stuff like encasing a pack of zerglings that would decimate your army but 5 well placed forcefields and they are all doomed forever. Sure it's relied upon vs the Zerg. And slightly vs the Terran. Vs the Terran they have utility even into the lategame. Vs Zerg not so much, why? You say it's broken Protoss mechanics, I can just as easily make the argument about it being broken Zerg mechanics. I don't know why you don't like guardian shield either. I think it's an amazing spell, and it's interesting to see how often in the lategame it's neglected, where potentially it has the highest amount of usefulness. Lose all your sentries in the midgame, forget to build 2 more for guardian shield. Or you can't, that's a big tradeoff. But anyway point is, while you don't like it. The only race I think these things you speak of are in any way a hindrance or nuisance is in PvZ. And I think the way to go about fixing that isn't by taking out the 2 coolest things in the whole Protoss arsenal, forcefields and mothership.
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I don’t see forcefields as game breaking as you make out. Terran gets to repair bunkers, stim then dropships and ultimately ghosts so forcefields in that matchup are fine as they progressively lose their power as the games go on which is a good thing in my opinion. Give Zerg something to help them against forcefields in mid game by giving them something in lair tech because at the moment hydras are useless other than for all ins.
The EMP/feedback dynamic is favoured for protoss in my opinion and blanket EMPing shouldn’t happen unless the protoss is the weaker player. However I do agree that it is unforgiving and a poor engagement will decide the game. This isn’t because of the EMP though more the insane dps of stimmed bio.
I agree with removing fungal though as it ruins late game in all matchups. Mass fungals and mass infested terrans make for a boring late game and when coupled with broodlords are too powerful.
In my opinion Roaches and Marauders are what hurts sc2 unit interactions and makes games uninteresting and should be removed. The units are boring and too strong for their cost, early availability and ease of use.
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On October 18 2012 17:39 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 17:37 Kaleidos wrote:
Great analysys about the forcefield and the spell caster role.
I don't necessarily agree with the removal of the Mothership ..what about the M.Core's destiny then?
You could merge the new unit you mentioned and the M.Core in one unit, but the problem with the Mamaship is called Vortex, not the unit it's self imho.
I think Blizzy already got the message about "we want fungal to change". The community voice hasn't been as much loud about forcefield tho, so i really hope they read this thread! The problem with a unit like the mothership is that it's either useless (PvT) or completely game breaking to the point where a matchup/situation is balanced around it (PvZ), and it's balanced in a very poor way at that.
I agree thet the current mothership role is bad for the game, but is not like it Has to have vortex by any god laws.
I'm sure they can design better spells for the unit.
I think the unit is in the game as a Hero unit because of warpins. Having both warpins and recalls on multiple "arbiters" would be probably too strong.
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Even if I don't agree with some of your points I think Blizzard DEFINITELY needs to rethink the fundamental units and spells that currently exist in WoL.
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Love to get your insight Gretorp. Hope someone from Blizzard reads this. As their hesitant to change anything except if it's "op" and they know it.
Blizzard doesn't really listen to constructive criticism. And they don't seem to change anything except the new units. Which makes it a lot harder to design the new units because of the old unit's restrictions.
Another thing I don't really understand is why Mothership is in the multiplayer. It is / was a singleplayer unit (story)
I understand that Protoss wouldn't stand a chance vs infestor / broodlord etc.
In my opinion this are the units which really needs a revamp / redesign.
Zerg
- Infestor (Fungal specifically)but naural is currently pretty useless.
- Swarm host ( This unit is basically a ground Broodlord. And micro denial unit.)
- Broodlord ( This might not be as critical, But I feel when you HAVE to have this unit lategame in any matchup, it makes the game very boring quickly..)
Protoss
- Sentry (you made a better point than I could because I'm just a high masters with toss and play Zerg. So I can't be totally unbiased, but forcefield and guardian shield is a must with Protoss. Which also makes the game boring quickly, and hard to innovate new builds because of it.)
- Mothership (Remove from multiplayer all together, Relying on 1 spell lategame for a win/loss is pretty much just bad design.)
- Carrier ( Make this unit more microable, or make tempest abit more expensive with some splash? Again, I'm not a Protoss.)
Terran
- Widow mine. (This unit seems way to cheap and good vs anything.)
- Tank ( Feel like Tanks need something more added to make Mech more viable. But I'm not exactly sure what.)
- Thor ( This unit is also a unit which in large numbers, force the opposing player to dedicate to long game where you need t3 to deal with. Which would be okey if Thors wasn't good vs anything T3 except Broodlord. (can also be "decent" vs broodlords if clumped up / paired with alot of vikings.))
I actually want the Thor Removed
- Goliath (This would add so much more dynamic gameplay to the race. Where mech could break a contain (mutas etc) in the early game to put pressure back on the other race.)
Again, this is just my opinion as a Programmer (not educated game designer but did make a Warcraft TD flash game when I was 14 with my dad. and made a few Mobile Games for Android / ios)
Then again making a few mobile games doesn't make me a game designer/balancer, but I've played the Starcraft series pretty much all my life (along with other RTS games). And I feel like I get the general idea of what might make the game more dynamic as well as fun.
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On October 18 2012 18:04 jworld wrote:
I don’t see forcefields as game breaking as you make out. Terran gets to repair bunkers, stim then dropships and ultimately ghosts so forcefields in that matchup are fine as they progressively lose their power as the games go on which is a good thing in my opinion. Give Zerg something to help them against forcefields in mid game by giving them something in lair tech because at the moment hydras are useless other than for all ins.
The EMP/feedback dynamic is favoured for protoss in my opinion and blanket EMPing shouldn’t happen unless the protoss is the weaker player. However I do agree that it is unforgiving and a poor engagement will decide the game. This isn’t because of the EMP though more the insane dps of stimmed bio.
I agree with removing fungal though as it ruins late game in all matchups. Mass fungals and mass infested terrans make for a boring late game and when coupled with broodlords are too powerful.
In my opinion Roaches and Marauders are what hurts sc2 unit interactions and makes games uninteresting and should be removed. The units are boring and too strong for their cost, early availability and ease of use.
You don't get it.
Forcefields "force" terrible maps because on interesting Maps with many chokes and stuff they become totally imbalanced.
Yes, for Protoss it feels awesome to have set nice Forcefields (so do Fungals for Zerg or an EMP carpet for Terran).
Yes, atm Protoss needs them (like Z needs Fungal and Terran needs EMP), but that could/should be fixed to make the game better as a whole.
The mechanic itself (for all these) aren't even bad, but they should be nowhere near as dominating as they are now. Especially Forcefield could be pretty cool if it would be something that you can only use very sparsely, it should not be the thing that everything Protoss early -> mid revolves around.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 18 2012 18:15 Kaleidos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 17:39 Teoita wrote:On October 18 2012 17:37 Kaleidos wrote:
Great analysys about the forcefield and the spell caster role.
I don't necessarily agree with the removal of the Mothership ..what about the M.Core's destiny then?
You could merge the new unit you mentioned and the M.Core in one unit, but the problem with the Mamaship is called Vortex, not the unit it's self imho.
I think Blizzy already got the message about "we want fungal to change". The community voice hasn't been as much loud about forcefield tho, so i really hope they read this thread! The problem with a unit like the mothership is that it's either useless (PvT) or completely game breaking to the point where a matchup/situation is balanced around it (PvZ), and it's balanced in a very poor way at that. I agree thet the current mothership role is bad for the game, but is not like it Has to have vortex by any god laws. I'm sure they can design better spells for the unit. I think the unit is in the game as a Hero unit because of warpins. Having both warpins and recalls on multiple "arbiters" would be probably too strong.
Having a single unit of a kind available means that the game is either balanced when it is in play, or when it isn't. In the first case it's gamebreaking, in the second it's useless. It's pretty much impossible to find a middle ground (see lategame pvz)
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Gretorp. I Love You.
+ Show Spoiler +The process that I'd do it?
Rebalance Protoss. Make forcefield a slow rather than an object. Empower the stalker and zealot a bit more. Along with the Immortal. Now you can actually incorpoarte a 3-4 range mid tier unit in HotS that can add to the ball since protoss needs a buff at larger supplies.
Make fungal growth a slight slow, but an attack speed slow as well. DOT as well and non instant/slower than EMP.
EMP is off of ghosts. It shouldn't be a standard, it should be a luxury at higher tier similar to Science Vessels. Remove HSM and put EMP on Raven.
Therefore, rework Ghost to have slightly higher DPS or ability to plant widow mines. This will make Ghosts not such a pigeonhole unit where they just emp and die. Now they support with DPS and spacing/positioning.
Take out Mothership altogether. Replace back with unit that can do cloaking field. This will be a main way Protoss can defend expos since you can make multiple at high gas cost. Will be balanced based on new Protoss .
I hope to encourage talk about this.
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On October 18 2012 18:25 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 18:04 jworld wrote:
I don’t see forcefields as game breaking as you make out. Terran gets to repair bunkers, stim then dropships and ultimately ghosts so forcefields in that matchup are fine as they progressively lose their power as the games go on which is a good thing in my opinion. Give Zerg something to help them against forcefields in mid game by giving them something in lair tech because at the moment hydras are useless other than for all ins.
The EMP/feedback dynamic is favoured for protoss in my opinion and blanket EMPing shouldn’t happen unless the protoss is the weaker player. However I do agree that it is unforgiving and a poor engagement will decide the game. This isn’t because of the EMP though more the insane dps of stimmed bio.
I agree with removing fungal though as it ruins late game in all matchups. Mass fungals and mass infested terrans make for a boring late game and when coupled with broodlords are too powerful.
In my opinion Roaches and Marauders are what hurts sc2 unit interactions and makes games uninteresting and should be removed. The units are boring and too strong for their cost, early availability and ease of use.
You don't get it. Forcefields "force" terrible maps because on interesting Maps with many chokes and stuff they become totally imbalanced. Yes, for Protoss it feels awesome to have set nice Forcefields (so do Fungals for Zerg or an EMP carpet for Terran). Yes, atm Protoss needs them (like Z needs Fungal and Terran needs EMP), but that could/should be fixed to make the game better as a whole. The mechanic itself (for all these) aren't even bad, but they should be nowhere near as dominating as they are now. Especially Forcefield could be pretty cool if it would be something that you can only use very sparsely, it should not be the thing that everything Protoss early -> mid revolves around.
I think its an interesting spell that takes skill to use. Zerg just needs the tools to deal with it. You can still have chokes in maps if the other races have tools to deal with the forcefields. Maybe Zerg should get a move to abduct their own units to pull them back to their side of the forcefields or something. I think the problem is one races susceptibility to the spell.
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HSM is fine imo. You need quit some research and it kosts 125 ennergy.
On the other hand FFs and Fungel cost less and they are already worth their costs when they spawn, so you can count on them earlier on.
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While I'm in favor of a complete redesign, even small changes along this vein might be instructive, and then we can make more small changes.
For instance, with the mothership core, Protoss now has an easier time defending. So they need sentries less to not die than they did before. Let's try making Force Field cost 75 energy. Just, see how that works.
Then, perhaps, more buffs to gateway units at Twilight Tech. I'd like to see some kind of "Undying Fury" type ability for zealots, where they could stay alive at 0 HP for a few seconds. Tank a bit more, get another hit in, actually contribute to battles.
Make Carriers micro like in BW, and rework the Mothership a bit.
And then just kind of see where we are. And from there, we can make further changes, hopefully in the direction Gretorp wants, or in another direction if Gretorp's wrong (I know he's really smart, but this is complicated!).
If nothing else, a series of small changes adding up to a rework of Protoss is probably an easier sell to Blizz than "scrap the sentry and start over".
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Some great Ideas and observations overall. But when it comes to balance Blizzard uses statistics from all the Ladders and from Major Tournaments. As long as all the matchup's are balanced (win/loss ratio) they consider it balanced. That's why i suggested #SaveHOTS that Blizzard creates a Task Force to use this vast resource called the community to collect idea's or shed some light on Issues that they might not have thought on their own.
It really hurts to see that Battlenet 2.0 to make it so hard to join a clan or to feel some sort of belonging, not to have a detailed Profile and being so limited on your Name. And ofcourse the death of Custom Games. It hurts all the more when I think how they did everything right in the past (BW, WC3)
Back to the basics would be my wish.
LAN atleast for tournaments. It's such a pain to have laggs when the best of the best compete and theres a huge spike in a main engagement...unbearable for me as a fan.
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A few random ideas:
Give forcefield to the mothership core, but only if it's within a certain range of a nexus. This would mean that protosses would no longer have to rely on forcefield offensively, but still be able to defend against baneling all ins and such. Since you can only get one mothership core, the energy cost would need to be lowered to 25. Maybe it could drain energy from a nexus to get more forcefields in an emergency.
With swarm hosts in HotS, the design of the broodlord seems redundant, not to mention how it ruins late game ZvP or even super late game ZvZ (Scarlett vs Miya, anyone?). To solve this, I suggest we look to a BW unit; the  Devourer. The devourer had an attack called "acid spores", which clinged to a unit and slowed its attack speed down, and made the unit take more damage from each following hit. With an attack like this, we could remove broodlings from broodlords and still have it be a powerful unit (although the name wouldn't make much sense anymore). This would of course require a change/removal of vortex, and possibly some stats buffs to the broodlord itself.
Make warpgate require twilight council, OR make it really expensive, like 200/200 or something like that. The removal of sentry forcefield would mean that zealots and stalkers would have to be buffed, but that would make early warpgate pushes a real problem. Warpgate is such a powerful ability that it should be a real investment to get it, not just a brainless auto research as soon as your cyber core finishes. The buff to gateway units would possibly mean that we could nerf collosi as well, which would only be good for the game, especially PvP!
Just my two cents.
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On October 18 2012 17:21 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 16:11 Razac wrote:
Sorry, i dont see how this will fix Protoss. I dont think Protoss needs fixing in the first place, forcefields are cool i dont see a problem at all with them. Some units need to be reworked / removed for sure in HOTS but the centry is not on that list.
Units needed to be tweaked/changed/removed:
-Thor
-Mothership
-BattleCruiser
-Widow Mine
-Tempest / carrier -> Remove tempest add micro for carrier
-Raven (tweaking in numbers)
-Infestor (fundell nerf)
-Swarmhost
-Tank (if you want mech to work in TvP (i want that badly) then this unit needs to change if only in stats)
I find it funny how you think a spell that negates micro from the other player is cool but imagine that you don't like fungel. Honestly both need to be modified, I would say the thing I miss the most about bw is not having to worry about a unit that prevents my units from moving. I would kill for both spells to be gone and both races balanced to compensate for it. Anti-micro spells are just so boring, I never see forcefields go down and think "oh my god that was so badass", same with fungel I never think "holy shit that was so awesome how he fungeled those units!" To bad I don't think anything will ever be done about those 2 :/.
Fundle can be dodged by splitting bio in TvZ or blinking in PvZ, it actually forces micro. Anyhow same for ForceFields, I don’t see how FF stops one from micoring? It actually forces more Micro... So besides the fact that both ability's use energy I don’t see much similarity’s. Fundle is imo just to strong, the 100% root makes it so any mismicro can be easaly punished.
I personally love watching people throw down amazing forcefields, but you are right in that FFare so essential for allot of build/strats it does narrow down the valid strategy’s.
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Couldn't this be posted at the hidden proforums for the HOTS beta?
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As much as I agree on most of things you said I know that Blizzard can't/won't change fundamentals of Protoss race. Rebalancing one race from scratch isn't an option on that stage of developing.
About the casters I belive it is easier to fix, AI in sc2 plus faster speed of the game then BW makes late game battles ALL ABOUT spellcasters. Also those units should focus more on defensive/support abilities as guardian's shield/pdd/transfusion rather then blanket EMPs, melting bio with storms or fungal growth which is abomination becouse of neglecting whole idea of micro.
Why are terran matchups consider the best to watch? They are consisted of most micro/multitasking from of all of the races. Terran race gains most from those things thus making it excited to watch/play.
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EPT
