On December 17 2012 04:08 Azoryen wrote: Instead of over analysing why mech doesn't work and coming up with solutions, people should realize that Blizzard apparently has no intention of making mech work anymore and try to analyse that instead.
I mean, Blizzard has the knowledge and power to make mech viable, they don't need any more suggestions from anyone. If they haven't done it this far into the BETA, is simply because they prefer not to.
If I had to guess, I'd say they tested it internally and realized that T can't ever have very strong lategame compositions because of MULEs, which make possible for T armies to exceed in size the opposing army by 50 supply. And since they have huge resistance to changing basic mechanics like MULEs, that's the end of any hope of T ever being allowed to reach lategame compositions that can match Z and P.
Blizzard has consistently been mentioning how they're trying to make mech in TvP work. Might you want to elaborate why you think they gave up? We just got a huge patch recently and then another buff to widow mines, so maybe they want to do things slowly. After all we still have about 2 months left of beta, so we can still see a few more patches.
These aren't even recent posts, so I don't know why you guys are wasting your time with this.
Also, you mentioned yourself the problem of MULE scaling and I might add the even more complex problem of how MULEs allow T to have 40% more army supply into his max. This forces ZvT and PvT match-ups to be all about Z and P not allowing T to ever get to that situation, so even if you have fancy lategame mech (or air) compositions, your evenly matched opponents will not let you get to them. And for the game to be balanced, Blizzard must give Z and P the means to do exactly that.
Terrans need to understand that you can't have strong lategame compositions + be allowed to reach them + be able to match 80 drones economy with 30 scvs + MULEs and have a 170 supply army against a 120 supply army. That will never happen.
The big difference you seem to completely ignore is the fact that even with a smaller supply army, both Protoss and Zerg can remax a HELL of a lot faster than a terran can. It's not even close.
Also Terran need the 170 supply army to be EVEN with the other races late game armies.
Not with a mech army. In BW equal supply mech was already pretty hard to deal with, now imagine 170 vs 120 supply.
Also, I'm not ignoring the differences in remax speed, why you say that? All I'm saying is that mechanics like the 170 vs 120 supply AND slower remaxing speeds (like you mentioned) dictate pretty much everything in the dynamics of any lategame involving terran. So don't ever expect HotS to be much different to WoL with respect to that... unless Blizzard was willing to change those fundamental mechanics, for example, by limiting total number of MULEs in play... not going to happen.
I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
I want any of the people defending mech is possible to see this VOD and tell me their opinion.
As you can see its a TvP from BW.Flash vs Bisu.I can see pretty big differences between BW and SC2 and identified from my Platinum T POV,so excuse me if its not as good as whould be.
1.Zealots got no Charge= they take 2 tanks shots instead of 1 or nothing in Sc2 2.Dragoons got no blink=the maybe die before even see tanks close 3.Hellion/Vulture got 3!!! free mines which cost 0,0000 supply so you can fill the map with 3 killing units free for the cost of only 75 mins and 1 suply(vulture).In SC2/HotS mines cost 2 supply and 75 mins 25 gas.Hellion is 100.Make your numbers please. 4.Tanks are only 2 supply instead of 3. 6 sieged tanks with less damaga and splash still make more than 4 with more damage. 5.No Colossus or Tempest to outrange tanks till Star Gate tech,which on 3 base P is almost impossible as caster said 6.No warp in on the battlefield,so if T army wins a single battle with few units remaining,there is no possibility of 10 zealots warping to finish them. 7.Harassing P late game still impossible due to lot of cannons,but P got no warp prism so he cant as well.He also must try sneak some Shuttle but there are only 4 units(DTs,HTs or Zealots) and ITS NOT THE SAME as warping 20 units in your main base.We got turrets and SEnsor towers as well to see warp prism coming,so I consider it well balanced in SC2 from this POV. 8.To EMP army you need a Science Vessel.So as you need mobile detection.In SC2 you need both ghost and Raven.Much more investment of Mineral,gas and supply. 9.Immortals doesnt exist,so P cant amove massing them. 10.There is stassis and mobile recall for P,but it requires lot of APM and skill.Actually no needed in SC2 and nonexistent.
If I am wrong with some point,feel free to correct.I never played BW,so I am maybe wrong with everything,so my apologize if the case.
My personal POV is that almost every P change in SC2 was made to hardcounter mech and actually is impossible to make work.Lyyna,I am waiting for you to show I am so damn wrong.
Notice how he's in some real danger of suffering a lot of damage from two stalkers and a zealot WHILE the protoss is expanding. There are big differences at every step of the game, not just how the high tech comps stack up against each other.
On December 17 2012 04:08 Azoryen wrote: Instead of over analysing why mech doesn't work and coming up with solutions, people should realize that Blizzard apparently has no intention of making mech work anymore and try to analyse that instead.
I mean, Blizzard has the knowledge and power to make mech viable, they don't need any more suggestions from anyone. If they haven't done it this far into the BETA, is simply because they prefer not to.
If I had to guess, I'd say they tested it internally and realized that T can't ever have very strong lategame compositions because of MULEs, which make possible for T armies to exceed in size the opposing army by 50 supply. And since they have huge resistance to changing basic mechanics like MULEs, that's the end of any hope of T ever being allowed to reach lategame compositions that can match Z and P.
Blizzard has consistently been mentioning how they're trying to make mech in TvP work. Might you want to elaborate why you think they gave up? We just got a huge patch recently and then another buff to widow mines, so maybe they want to do things slowly. After all we still have about 2 months left of beta, so we can still see a few more patches.
These aren't even recent posts, so I don't know why you guys are wasting your time with this.
Also, you mentioned yourself the problem of MULE scaling and I might add the even more complex problem of how MULEs allow T to have 40% more army supply into his max. This forces ZvT and PvT match-ups to be all about Z and P not allowing T to ever get to that situation, so even if you have fancy lategame mech (or air) compositions, your evenly matched opponents will not let you get to them. And for the game to be balanced, Blizzard must give Z and P the means to do exactly that.
Terrans need to understand that you can't have strong lategame compositions + be allowed to reach them + be able to match 80 drones economy with 30 scvs + MULEs and have a 170 supply army against a 120 supply army. That will never happen.
Hm, I think our interpretation of what he means might differ.
I'll just talk about the first one, since the second doesn't seem to be as relevant (just their current thoughts at the time).
So the first thread, the OP is saying that just as you can throw in non-biological units into Bio and still play a "bio style" (mobile, harass, aggressive, etc.), you can also throw in non-mechanical units into Mech and still play a "mech style" (defensive, positional, immobile, strong). And that because of this, people should stop wanting blizzard to make full, pure mech to work (pure as in like, 90% supply or more -- which was seen in BW, because the Goliath was good anti-air against anything, and tanks/vultures worked against anything on the ground). So when David says they're going this direction, i think that's more of an explanation of why they took out the warhound (as explained in the second post); making "pure mech" work was something they tried out but decided not to do.
So in other words I still see it that they are trying to make TvP mech work, they just don't want you to be able to make pure compositions throughout the whole game, just like you can't go pure marine marauder ghost in every game (you COULD, but there is more and more incentive to add more support units like vikings/medivacs later in the game).
Only he knows what he means and you may be right. But I must say that the puristic "mech style" that you refer to seems very distant from ever happening in HotS. There isn't one single new unit / balance change in that directiom and if you combine that with quotes like the ones I posted and others, like them saying they want the widow mine to have a central role... sorry, but not looking good.
They do a lot of internal testing and I believe (this is speculative of course) that at some point they must have realized that with SC2 mechanics you can't really let terran play that ·defensive, positional, immobile, strong· style because the synergy with MULEs would be too good. That puristic mech would be perfect to allow terran to slowly build his army of 170 supply supported by zero-supply-energy-mining.
On December 17 2012 08:27 Resistentialism wrote: Part of what made mech TvP in bw balanced was that the highly mobile TvP styles where pretty bad. Protoss doesn't have the options to do econ/pressure builds in the mid game because the danger is that you'll lose your army in the middle of the map to bio or lose to drops. Protoss generally has to all-in or turtle. The other thing is that terran vulture harass was primarily shut down with core units and this harass denial was mostly efficient, so long as the protoss could get the right positioning.
Maybe with protoss' new scouting options, and the couple extra gimmicky harass options, you could say that protoss ought to be able figure out the difference between a primarily bio and primarily mech terran composition a little easier.
I don't know, if I had to paint a small vignette of what made PvT v mech right it was small numbers of dragoons taking pot shots at a bunker they outranged, forcing the terran to get siege mode earlier than they really wanted to. Against a bio opening in WoL this is pretty much suicide 90% of the time.
It's hard to imagine how to balance a terran style that can turtle super hard til they can out-muscle the best protoss units, while also being able to harass with hellions to punish protoss greed, while all the while the protoss is worried about being killed by bio until 12 minutes into the game. (Please Note: This is NOT what the game is like at the moment, for the record.)
Isnt hallucination like practically free atm so scouting isnt an issue? Also stargate play is also really good and viable against mech compare to BW. A phoenix opening is in no way bad at all by denying hellion drop and scouting so you should be able to tell if he going for what imo.
If this is the way it actually works out, then ya, it could be good. What I'm wondering about is maybe you can do something like open with just a couple of barracks into factory starport, then instead of getting a medivac, an extra ebay and 1/1 for bio, you drop some extra factories and an armory and turtle hard on 3 base. Not to say that that's a truly realistic build. It's hard to shoehorn in the style of BW mech and give it the same kind of power when protoss is dealing with a lot other threats from builds that were laughably bad in BW. There are lots of people in this thread that are saying SKT style or it's not real mech.
Hm I think I see what you are saying. If they are goingot make mech viable then there is the possibility of bio mech and therefore it hard to scout what terran is truely going. But I dont believe this is a problem since the terran cant spread himself too thin otherwise he become very weak. Also dont forget that terran upgrade are more diverse then protoss. No matter, the general response form protoss is generally the same. Also, what is stoping the protoss from actively scouting the terran unit composition with hallucination phoenixes and countering that? If terran is turtling then why dont protoss just mass expand forcing the terran to push for an engagement since he will be force to either fight an overwhelmingly easy to remax army with superior economy if he turtle. It rather easy to tell what a terran going by just looking at this unit composition.
On December 17 2012 09:48 avilo wrote: I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
That's so sad. Looks like Terran still needs work even in HotS.
When blizzard stops thinking the immortal belongs in the game as is, mech will be good. It's a ridiculously dumbed down hard counter that destroys an entire composition. Blizzard forcing the immortal down P's throats is a huge issue because it limits variety of play for terran, while not being critical for toss.
I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
HA HA
As you see is totally possible.You need at least 7 EMPS to kill Archons and Vikings to kill Warp Prism or Thors focusing it.The 4 immortals are just kidding us.You killed 20 probes and still lose to amove.
Anyways I think there will be major balance changes and maybe the warhound or its haywire missile will be back at some point of the BETA.If not,I dont understand the SG buff for the P army.I only hope,its because of future mech buff and P need to have good answer to this.Maybe I am wrong and they want to see SG late game only in PvZ or PvP??
As you can see its a TvP from BW.Flash vs Bisu.I can see pretty big differences between BW and SC2 and identified from my Platinum T POV,so excuse me if its not as good as whould be.
1.Zealots got no Charge= they take 2 tanks shots instead of 1 or nothing in Sc2 2.Dragoons got no blink=the maybe die before even see tanks close 3.Hellion/Vulture got 3!!! free mines which cost 0,0000 supply so you can fill the map with 3 killing units free for the cost of only 75 mins and 1 suply(vulture).In SC2/HotS mines cost 2 supply and 75 mins 25 gas.Hellion is 100.Make your numbers please. 4.Tanks are only 2 supply instead of 3. 6 sieged tanks with less damaga and splash still make more than 4 with more damage. 5.No Colossus or Tempest to outrange tanks till Star Gate tech,which on 3 base P is almost impossible as caster said 6.No warp in on the battlefield,so if T army wins a single battle with few units remaining,there is no possibility of 10 zealots warping to finish them. 7.Harassing P late game still impossible due to lot of cannons,but P got no warp prism so he cant as well.He also must try sneak some Shuttle but there are only 4 units(DTs,HTs or Zealots) and ITS NOT THE SAME as warping 20 units in your main base.We got turrets and SEnsor towers as well to see warp prism coming,so I consider it well balanced in SC2 from this POV. 8.To EMP army you need a Science Vessel.So as you need mobile detection.In SC2 you need both ghost and Raven.Much more investment of Mineral,gas and supply. 9.Immortals doesnt exist,so P cant amove massing them. 10.There is stassis and mobile recall for P,but it requires lot of APM and skill.Actually no needed in SC2 and nonexistent.
If I am wrong with some point,feel free to correct.I never played BW,so I am maybe wrong with everything,so my apologize if the case.
My personal POV is that almost every P change in SC2 was made to hardcounter mech and actually is impossible to make work.Lyyna,I am waiting for you to show I am so damn wrong.
Regarding emp and detection in both game, in BW it wasnt really necessary. You can choose to get vessel or you can ignore it until very very very late game or you can just invest that gas into more tanks, golliath or faster upgrades. Also scan isnt that big of an issue in sc2 if you play mech since you will generally want to save scan because mineral dont really mean much to you anyways because you rather scan and used the gas for more factory unit rather then making a raven.
Also regarding stalkers with blink, they arent that bad. Early game they can be really dangerious due to all-in and not enough seige tanks to handle them but later on when you have more tanks, it not an issue. In fact, you might even want him to blink in because then he cant escape afterward.
On December 17 2012 09:48 avilo wrote: I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
I watched you play that game on stream. While I agree with you that the protoss win was bullshit I don't think you describe things completely fair. There are similar situations where you would just outright lose vs protoss if you go bio. Herp derp immortal pushes owning up bio placed in 5 bunkers comes to mind ...
You opened the game with a hellion drop vs a 1 gate expand. Your harass did little or no damage and you lost the medivac directly. This should put you behind. Right before his final push you suicided a bunch of hellions to kill probes. You crippled his economy, but I think that you would have held his push if you had retained those hellions. You had your 3rd cc up while he was only on 2 bases. The decision to trade those hellions for probes was maybe not that good. Also, you should question that opener you did. Vs archon immortal and zealot pushes I find it very useful to have cloaked banshees and turrets. The turrets kill observers and acts as extra road blocks for the clunky protoss units. Consider opening with cloak banshees and make sure not to lose them. 3-4 banshees would have turned the battle in your favor.
I still share your frustration about TvP mech though. Imo it comes down to stuff like the opening build orders. The problem I think is the fact that there are very few solid mech openers in TvP. 1 rax expand into tech is very hard due to MsC play with blink. Especially on antiga. This opener also shits on banshee openers. It is not fair that protosses can fast expand into tech and basically be safe while the terran has to hope that opponent doesn't BO counter him.
This is the more general problem. In all cases I have seen mech work in the GSL it has been off 1 rax expands into mech, which is not a safe standard opener. This is the primary issue that needs to be fixed. Your game is just an example of what can happen when you open with aggression that fails.
On December 17 2012 09:48 avilo wrote: I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
This is such a bunch of whining...
Yes I agree mech is too weak still but this replay as 'proof' is just awful. Terran opens up very poorly in this game and as a result is quite a bit behind because he hardly does economic damage at first while protoss got a fairly early expand. This causes terran to be way behind in army count when protoss decides to get aggresive just as terran is finishing his third. That push is delayed a little bit though by a hellion runby which kills 12 probes but loses all hellions which doesn't help much. Terran at the point of attack has only half the army worth of protoss, of course protoss rolls over terran then especially considering there is no critical mass of mech units at all really...
All in all this is a terrible argument for a good case. Yes mech is probably too weak still against protoss but don't mess up the argument with false proofs like these please..
If they really want to make mech viable in TvP they need a drastically different approach. Buffing terran mech options is a terrible route because it makes all other terran matchups way too mech focussed, which is already happening. Just nerf some protoss anti-mech options.. Two things specifically from protoss should be nerfed imo which can improve the fun of the game: - the immortal needs to be drastically reworked to be not be so super damn strong against tanks anymore. Hardened shield is practically only a tank/thor counter. In PvP or PvZ it hardly reduces damage as most attacks do 20 max anyway there, only exception being the ultralisk. For example if the immortal was just given +40 hitpoints but hardened shield was removed it would function practically the same but not be such a hard mech counter anymore. As it stands mech dies or lives way too much by a good EMP or not.. - blink stalker attacks are too strong now since sentry and/or MsC give free vision up ramps. This is ruining PvP at the moment and hurts mech very much in TvP. 1 base or 2 base blink attacks are crazy good now and virtually risk free to try since the MsC makes you immune to all-out attacks early on and stalkers are good anyways. Terran has to expand very carefully and can't really rely on chokes etc to keep him safe as much and mech especially can't stop blink attacks well because the only great mech unit against stalkers is a sieged tank. It's however pretty difficult to have tanks sieged up against blink plays...
The power of tempest/carrier + ht is perhaps a bit too strong too but that's a lategame problem and can probably be fixed if mech is just good enough before that. Mech having to be aggresive enough to prevent terran from dying to lategame air, like in BW, is a good thing. Terran just doesn't want to do mech at all though, it's not strong at ANY point in the game against protoss and the lategame air switch still cripples you.
On December 17 2012 09:48 avilo wrote: I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
I watched you play that game on stream. While I agree with you that the protoss win was bullshit I don't think you describe things completely fair. There are similar situations where you would just outright lose vs protoss if you go bio. Herp derp immortal pushes owning up bio placed in 5 bunkers comes to mind ...
You opened the game with a hellion drop vs a 1 gate expand. Your harass did little or no damage and you lost the medivac directly. This should put you behind. Right before his final push you suicided a bunch of hellions to kill probes. You crippled his economy, but I think that you would have held his push if you had retained those hellions. You had your 3rd cc up while he was only on 2 bases. The decision to trade those hellions for probes was maybe not that good. Also, you should question that opener you did. Vs archon immortal and zealot pushes I find it very useful to have cloaked banshees and turrets. The turrets kill observers and acts as extra road blocks for the clunky protoss units. Consider opening with cloak banshees and make sure not to lose them. 3-4 banshees would have turned the battle in your favor.
I still share your frustration about TvP mech though. Imo it comes down to stuff like the opening build orders. The problem I think is the fact that there are very few solid mech openers in TvP. 1 rax expand into tech is very hard due to MsC play with blink. Especially on antiga. This opener also shits on banshee openers. It is not fair that protosses can fast expand into tech and basically be safe while the terran has to hope that opponent doesn't BO counter him.
This is the more general problem. In all cases I have seen mech work in the GSL it has been off 1 rax expands into mech, which is not a safe standard opener. This is the primary issue that needs to be fixed. Your game is just an example of what can happen when you open with aggression that fails.
I'm wondering if they could find a way to make Protoss vs mutas playable, while taking away stalkers' ability to blink over cliffs. Later in the game, you could bring a warp prism with you to elevator up a cliff, which would take more micro and etc. etc.
The widow mines help a little and with some more tweaking could be even better, but I still think most openers are too weak/unviable vs P simpy because of the possibility of a blink all in.
And there are hopefully other ways to address other all-ins, like you say I feel there is too much BO countering.
Also someone else mentioned this, and I like the idea. If we are to nerf the immortal and/or buff mech in TvP, we could simply lower the Immortal's shield but give it more HP. Because of the MSC and improved stargate tech, maybe they could reduce the dependence on immortals vs roaches in ZvP.
On December 17 2012 09:48 avilo wrote: I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
This makes me sad. Sieged tank lines should be scary. A-moving into sieged tank fire should be brutally punished.
If a-moving into sieged tank positions is not a monumental mistake then why the hell should tanks have a siege function at all? Tanks are designed to be weak when unsieged but powerful when sieged and in this way they're their own counter. Except it's just becoming more and more apparent that the lack of sieged tank firepower means that unsieged is weak, and so is sieged.
I'm of the opinion that no ground army should be able to take land off of comparable sieged tank lines. Those tanks give up mobility and air defense in order to be superior on the ground. Alternate strategies should be needed to overcome sieged tanks and regular ground forces should get thoroughly stomped. This is why blink/air/charge is in the game, but at the moment it's just not needed.
Thormech is amazing now. Even immortals do not feel like a problem when you use enough of banshees and offensive widow mines when engaging. Air switches are very weak to a +2 armor timing push. Banshees are amazing since you get the armor upgrades for them for free, you force a ton of stalkers that barely scratch your thors. Flank their army with 8-10 widow mines when the big engagement comes, sometimes its enough to kill most of their army by itself. The style is best used for timing pushes, in longer games tempests can become very difficult to counter.
I'm playing high masters/GM opponents in the beta, and my TvP winrate has never been higher. Tank-based mech on the other hand feels completely dead to me.
On December 17 2012 09:48 avilo wrote: I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
This makes me sad. Sieged tank lines should be scary. A-moving into sieged tank fire should be brutally punished.
If a-moving into sieged tank positions is not a monumental mistake then why the hell should tanks have a siege function at all?
This. This so much.
It's kind of like a-moving into a Siege Tank line is the same as a-moving into any other kind of army. When you see a Terran Siege Tank line you don't think "Oh shit! I better not cross that line without a good plan. I really need to strategically innovate now this making this game more indirectly interesting! Thanks Blizzard!" you think "I love it when Terran makes tanks. I'll just make another round of lings/zealots and a-move".
On December 17 2012 09:48 avilo wrote: I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
I watched you play that game on stream. While I agree with you that the protoss win was bullshit I don't think you describe things completely fair. There are similar situations where you would just outright lose vs protoss if you go bio. Herp derp immortal pushes owning up bio placed in 5 bunkers comes to mind ...
You opened the game with a hellion drop vs a 1 gate expand. Your harass did little or no damage and you lost the medivac directly. This should put you behind. Right before his final push you suicided a bunch of hellions to kill probes. You crippled his economy, but I think that you would have held his push if you had retained those hellions. You had your 3rd cc up while he was only on 2 bases. The decision to trade those hellions for probes was maybe not that good. Also, you should question that opener you did. Vs archon immortal and zealot pushes I find it very useful to have cloaked banshees and turrets. The turrets kill observers and acts as extra road blocks for the clunky protoss units. Consider opening with cloak banshees and make sure not to lose them. 3-4 banshees would have turned the battle in your favor.
I still share your frustration about TvP mech though. Imo it comes down to stuff like the opening build orders. The problem I think is the fact that there are very few solid mech openers in TvP. 1 rax expand into tech is very hard due to MsC play with blink. Especially on antiga. This opener also shits on banshee openers. It is not fair that protosses can fast expand into tech and basically be safe while the terran has to hope that opponent doesn't BO counter him.
This is the more general problem. In all cases I have seen mech work in the GSL it has been off 1 rax expands into mech, which is not a safe standard opener. This is the primary issue that needs to be fixed. Your game is just an example of what can happen when you open with aggression that fails.
I'm wondering if they could find a way to make Protoss vs mutas playable, while taking away stalkers' ability to blink over cliffs. Later in the game, you could bring a warp prism with you to elevator up a cliff, which would take more micro and etc. etc.
The widow mines help a little and with some more tweaking could be even better, but I still think most openers are too weak/unviable vs P simpy because of the possibility of a blink all in.
And there are hopefully other ways to address other all-ins, like you say I feel there is too much BO countering.
Also someone else mentioned this, and I like the idea. If we are to nerf the immortal and/or buff mech in TvP, we could simply lower the Immortal's shield but give it more HP. Because of the MSC and improved stargate tech, maybe they could reduce the dependence on immortals vs roaches in ZvP.
I actually came with that very suggestion about the immortal in another thread today. +50 hp and -50 shields.
Another thing that should be fixed is the widow mine. It could help vs blink allins if it worked more like an actual mine. If it did more splash damage you could counter blink play with good mine placement while still getting a reasonably early expand,
I am just a master league terran and I can come up with a number of fixes local to TvP which would improve mech greatly. How come Blizzard cant identify these problems and do sth about them?
On December 17 2012 09:48 avilo wrote: I'm officially done test/trying mech in HOTS beta. It still sucks balls, blizzard has done nothing to address anything in terms of the tank sucking TvP and the immortal basically being the most hardcounter unit in the game that is the other problem.
Here is the replay for those interested that has made me 100% quit mech TvP for now until blizzard does something (if they're going to at all):
http://drop.sc/285085 Ignore that he dropped from the game, he actually got disconnected at the end.
a) lots of probes dead protoss on 2 base b) protoss proceeds to get immortal/archon/chargelot c) supply depot wall in + bunker + raven + 4 tanks pre-sieged + battle hellions + 20-30 SCVS what happens?
Protoss 1A's up the ramp into a tiny choke, and literally obliterates a PRE-SIEGED ARMY without any micro, no anything. Ok, if this was not enough to convince you now...
Look at the upgrades on my units. Look at the upgrades on his units...
THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'm done with mech TvP. Blizzard has horrendously failed on doing anything with it.
GL to all that are still trying/attempting it though, like i said, this game above is the last straw on the camel's back for me. I had to re-watch the game 2-3 times and just sigh.
So yes, mech is still indeed not viable TvP. Or you have to be a lot better than the Protoss to make mech work, in which case you should have played bio because you could have saved yourself half an hour of playing time.
I watched you play that game on stream. While I agree with you that the protoss win was bullshit I don't think you describe things completely fair. There are similar situations where you would just outright lose vs protoss if you go bio. Herp derp immortal pushes owning up bio placed in 5 bunkers comes to mind ...
You opened the game with a hellion drop vs a 1 gate expand. Your harass did little or no damage and you lost the medivac directly. This should put you behind. Right before his final push you suicided a bunch of hellions to kill probes. You crippled his economy, but I think that you would have held his push if you had retained those hellions. You had your 3rd cc up while he was only on 2 bases. The decision to trade those hellions for probes was maybe not that good. Also, you should question that opener you did. Vs archon immortal and zealot pushes I find it very useful to have cloaked banshees and turrets. The turrets kill observers and acts as extra road blocks for the clunky protoss units. Consider opening with cloak banshees and make sure not to lose them. 3-4 banshees would have turned the battle in your favor.
I still share your frustration about TvP mech though. Imo it comes down to stuff like the opening build orders. The problem I think is the fact that there are very few solid mech openers in TvP. 1 rax expand into tech is very hard due to MsC play with blink. Especially on antiga. This opener also shits on banshee openers. It is not fair that protosses can fast expand into tech and basically be safe while the terran has to hope that opponent doesn't BO counter him.
This is the more general problem. In all cases I have seen mech work in the GSL it has been off 1 rax expands into mech, which is not a safe standard opener. This is the primary issue that needs to be fixed. Your game is just an example of what can happen when you open with aggression that fails.
I'm wondering if they could find a way to make Protoss vs mutas playable, while taking away stalkers' ability to blink over cliffs. Later in the game, you could bring a warp prism with you to elevator up a cliff, which would take more micro and etc. etc.
The widow mines help a little and with some more tweaking could be even better, but I still think most openers are too weak/unviable vs P simpy because of the possibility of a blink all in.
And there are hopefully other ways to address other all-ins, like you say I feel there is too much BO countering.
Also someone else mentioned this, and I like the idea. If we are to nerf the immortal and/or buff mech in TvP, we could simply lower the Immortal's shield but give it more HP. Because of the MSC and improved stargate tech, maybe they could reduce the dependence on immortals vs roaches in ZvP.
I actually came with that very suggestion about the immortal in another thread today. +50 hp and -50 shields.
Another thing that should be fixed is the widow mine. It could help vs blink allins if it worked more like an actual mine. If it did more splash damage you could counter blink play with good mine placement while still getting a reasonably early expand,
I am just a master league terran and I can come up with a number of fixes local to TvP which would improve mech greatly. How come Blizzard cant identify these problems and do sth about them?
I think they can identify these problems, they're just slow to fix it. Maybe overly careful, or maybe they lack the skills, but either way I think and hope they'll get there eventually.
That's a nice idea... what if they just buffed window mines... but not exactly buff them? If they have for example, 160 damage and much more splash (perhaps distributed by % intervals instead of just a flat number), it could defend harass much better (blink stalkers). It would add more micro, forcing the protoss player to, if he wants to blink in, not blink them all in 1 clump or else possibly lose them all to a a couple mines.
By making them very strong individually, just like tanks in BW, they could hold ground much better (supported by a couple tanks behind them, to prevent a couple protoss units from just tanking all the mines there, so that whatever the protoss sends, the mech player will at least trade somewhat well). But making them very strong might not make them overpowered, before you can splash yourself, and thus you may not want to clump them all up to each other, and you may not even want to have that many with your main army.
Well there's still plenty of time left, i'm excited to see what they'll do next.
The widow mines help a little and with some more tweaking could be even better, but I still think most openers are too weak/unviable vs P simpy because of the possibility of a blink all in.
And there are hopefully other ways to address other all-ins, like you say I feel there is too much BO countering.
This is exactly how I feel right now. Protoss has so much freedom and Terran is so constrained. So stressful to try and play a safe style right now
Mech sucks as an opening. You have to open bio, or stuff that requires ghost to counter (Archon/immo) will roll you in the midgame. Without ghost, mech cannot fight cost effectively, and you generally can't afford ghost until way later.
Late late game, though, mech is a viable ground army. The composition is 25tanks/25hellion/6-8 ghost. The question is if you can get there, and how much you had to invest in bio. Maybe it depends on how aggressive/not aggressive the P is planning to be on that map.
EPT
