Hey all, this is part 2 of my three part series on Race and Design in SC2. This is for all of my fellow fans of the Swarm who might feel that their numbers a bit thinner than they used to be.
Identity:
“Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright; know that I am the Overmind, the Eternal Will of the Swarm and that you have been created to serve me.”-Among the Ruins
Zerg are the creator's first success, and final error. They are Purity of Essence made manifest. Labeling Zerg as a hivemind species is inadequate. Calling them a contagion, insulting. They are more. In Starcraft, the Overmind was an ascendant god-entity bent on finishing its creator's work. To the Zerg, evolution is not just a tool, it is a divine process with a manifest destiny: the assimilation of all worthy life in creation. Nature's grandest design. This is what separates Zerg from so many hivemind creatures in other games. Warhammer's Tyranids simply hunger, Ridly Scott's Aliens seek to survive. Zerg strive to become perfect. The Swarm is not merely a nasty bunch of critters; it is an engine of a terrible and inevitable vision. This identity is clear in Zerg's clashes with the other races. Terran are a series of moving parts to be given purpose. Protoss, a single will to be subjugated and incorporated. Thus, against the typhoon of the Eternal Swarm, Terran fight for their survival, Protoss fight for their very souls. Mechanically, this is reflected by the Zerg's ability to adapt to change, to thrive at any given opportunity, and to overwhelm their enemies in an inevitable tide of flesh, claws, and teeth.
Supply and Zerg: Costs and Bodies
Zerg units pound for pound are the most fragile and numerous of the three races. However, due to their numbers and their virility (production ability) they are able to wear down or outright break their enemies. Therefore, of all the races, their unit supply should be the least. Lets look at early Tier Zerg Units and their Counterparts in Brood War.
Unit Name Cost: Supply: HP/Shields Damage BW Zergling 25/0 .5 35 5 BW Hydra 75/25 1 80 5 (+3 Med +5 Large) BW Zealot 100/0 2 100/60 16 BW Dragoon 125/50 2 100/80 10 (+5 Med+10 Large) BW Marine 50 1 40 6 BW Firebat 50/25 1 50 4 (+4 vs Med +12 vs Small)
Here we see a distinct relationship between Zerg units and their tier 1 counterparts. Zerglings will always lose on a unit to unit basis. However 2 Zerglings will eat a Marine, and 4 Zerglings will overwhelm a Zealot. Cost for cost, Zerglings are the most efficient ground unit in terms of damage. However, having its health pool split up into 35 health chunks make their power fragile. The Hydralisk has a similar relationship with the Dragoon. One dragoon will destroy a Hydra with relative ease. However, for each Dragoon a Protoss player has, a Zerg player can have two Hydralisks. Meaning that on open ground, Dragoons would lose to the the greater supply efficiency of hydras with no micro. However, Zerg generally loses units in this process, making reinforcement necessary. Let's look how things have changed in Starcraft 2.
Unit Name Cost Supply HP/Shields Damage WOL Zealot 100/0 2 100/50 8x2 WOL Stalker 125/50 2 80/80 10(+4 Armored) WOL Zergling 25/0 .5 35 5 WOL Roach 75/25 2 145 16 WOL Marine 50 1 45+10 6 WOL Marauder 125/25 2 125 10(+10 Armored)
The relationship between Zerglings and their tier 1 counterparts remain largely intact. (In fact, a 150 HP zealot goes down a little bit faster.) The relationship between Roaches and Marauders are markedly different. Roaches cost the same supply as both the Stalker and the Marauder, and narrowly loses to both (Marauder survives with 35 HP and the Stalker survives with 20 HP.) The issue here is when Zerg commits to making forces, they severely limit their supply. A Broodwar Zerg could spend 1 supply on a Hydra and 1 supply on a drone for a balanced approach to mining vs military. The trade off of this half and half approach being that the zerg player is fighting more on a unit to unit basis rather than supply to supply basis and is thus at a disadvantage. Roaches as they are implemented do not allow for this gradient macro gameplay because they take up as much supply as their opponent's units. Spawn Larva offsets this considerably, however, the dynamic and feel of Zerg as the Eternal Swarm is undermined by the inflation of supply of both SC2 Roaches and Hydralisks (both are 2 supply.)
This is not to say that Blizzard has drifted away from Zerg as a Swarm conceptually. Spawn Larva is a fantastic macro mechanic in that it produces the feeling of a rising tide of units. Creep providing mobility and points of sight gives a sense of inevitable conversion and corruption of the battlefield. Infestors can spit out effectively 8 supply of free units, and Brood Lords and Swarm Hosts literally generate Swarms of free units. This is fantastic design that sets Zerg apart from the other races. I take issue with only 2 units: The T 1.5 Roach and the Tier 2 Hydralisk because their current implementation actively takes away from the Swarm's identity as a unit that is supply efficient but more fragile in exchange.
Suggestions: These suggestions are focused advancing the feel of the Swarm in Starcraft 2. Change Set #1 attempts to do so by giving Zerg a tier 1.5 Unit that costs 1 supply. Change Set #2 adds more unit utility to units that currently suck up supply (Corruptors.) Again, these changes are not about balance, but achieving a gameplay dynamic that feels more consistent with Zerg identity.
Change Set #1
-A Tier 1.5 Hydralisk
-Hydralisk Den now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. -Muscular Augments now requires a Lair. -Hydra Den cost reduced to 150/25 -Hydralisk damage reduced to 7+3 to Armored. -Hydralisk cost reduced to 75/25 -Reduced Supply to 1.
Projected Effects: With a Tier 1.5 Hydra, Zerg has the ability to get more aggressive early on, without necessarily going all in. Additionally, Zerg gets a powerful means of early AA, allowing for fewer binary game states. This increased utility does come at a cost, Hydralisks are more fragile individually than Roaches, allowing the Zerg's supply to be sniped by quick enemies. This makes Zerg's positioning more important in the early game. As the game progresses, Hydralisks will become increasingly vulnerable to Area of Effect damage and units that can close the gap (like chargelots, stim bio, or speedlings) incentive the adaptation and evolution of the Swarm. Additionally, the ability for Zerg to have mobile AA allows for Protoss and Terran units to be stronger, allowing for more versatile openings versus Zerg.
-A Tier 2 Roach
-Roach Warren now requires a Lair to be built. -Roach Warren now costs 125/75 -Increase Life to 150. -Increase Base armor to 2 from 1. -Increase Cost to 100/50 -Increase Burrow Move speed to 2.
Projected Effects: Roaches have a more clearly defined role as a disposable shock troop for heavy fortifications, allowing Z to break through moderate defenses. Making Roaches a Tier 2 unit allows Zerg to have some real punch in the mid game if they commit their supply to it. However, for every Roach they make, they are losing over all damage per supply and the ability to to ward off air units. The Roach fills the gap between fragile hydras and neigh invulnerable Ultras. It represents a transition in Zerg evolution, a response to the increased firepower of its enemies.
No AA Queen -The Queen no longer has an air attack.
Projected Effects: Between Tier 1.5 Hydras and Mobile Spore Colonies (Crawlers) Zerg has enough stability in the early and mid games for defending against airborne threats. The Queen can still influence air fights with transfuse and spreading creep, allowing zerg units and structures to answer threats quickly and efficiently.
Change Set #2 (The design changes proposed here are more radical and should be taken lightly, I am not advocating that these changes be implemented, merely that something COULD be done to emphasize existing dynamics.)
A more Specialized Infestor.
-Reduced Cost to 100/100 -Fungal Growth changed. Fungal Slows affected units movement' and attack speed by 50% for 8 seconds. Fungal Growth no longer does damage. (It does reveal cloaked and burrowed units.) -Units affected by Fungal Growth may not use abilities. New Reseach: Viscous Musculature Cost: 150/150/80 Seconds. Requires Hive Infestors may cast Fungal Growth and Neural Parasite while Burrowed.
Projected Effects: With the Inclusion of the Viper, the Infestor no longer bears the mantle of being Zergs only true caster. Therefore, the Infestor can now specialize as a unit that supports the swarm in a different way. The new Fungal Growth focuses on a more defensive application. By slowing attack speed, movespeed, and preventing abilities, the Infestor can either stall advances, allowing the Swarm to muster, or it can disable key units like unsieged tanks, ghosts, or High Templar for a short period of time. With Vicsious Musculature researched, the Infestor's sinister role as an infiltrator or ambush caster becomes better defined, further differentiating it from the airborne, army-hugging Viper. These changes make the Infestor an addition to the Swarm, not a replacement.
A Swarm Friendly/More Support Oriented Corruptor -Corruption ability changed to Corruption Egg. -Corruption Egg starts on cooldown and gains 1 charge counter every 60 seconds. Storing up to 2 charges. -Range: 4 Target loses 100 health over 10 seconds and is marked. This damage cannot reduce the target's hp to less than 1. If the target dies while Corrupted, it spawns broodlings equal to the unit's supply at that location. (Air units spawn Broodlings under them.)
Projected Effects: Current design of non-zerg SC2 AA units is actually quite good. Vikings can land to support ground engagements or harass enemy mineral lines. Phoenix can lift and snipe individual ground units. Both of these units can be made with the intention of a strategy rather than a strict response an enemy's composition. Corruption Egg is an attempt to allow the Corrupter to have a more pronounced and readable effect on the ground without breaking them. Additionally, the ability communicates what the Corruptor is (a giant space squid that fires parasite eggs into the enemy) and foreshadows it evolution path. (The Broodlord hatches and launches broodlings directly at the enemy.) This is a fun and slightly more meaningful ability that allows the Zerg to feel more supply efficient.
Why Supply for Change #1? Again, these changes are about facilitating a discussion that produces more meaningful and proactive gameplay. Ideally, the advantage of Zerg is lots of damage per supply with lower HP pools than their enemies. This means that a zerg army on paper does more damage than Protoss or Terran compositions, however, because that supply is split up amongst more bodies, it takes up more physical space and there fore is spread over a wider area, meaning that if Zerg doesn't fight in an open field, their supply efficiency decreases significantly. Having a low-tier 1 supply Hydra helps makes this dynamic more pronounced without ruining the mid game utility of the Roach. It also brings early game larva efficiency more in line with Toss and Terran Production, given that you have to spend 2 larva for 2 supply worth of units, rather than 1llarva for 2 supply. This smooths the gradient between aggression and all in.
Hydralisk's have had their damage increased and their attack damage decreased as well as some tweaks to their attack animation to allow them to stutterer-step. This is in an ongoing effort to encourage micro with T 1.5 units. Hydralisks currently require Grooved Spines (range upgrade) to attack air. It is cheap 100/100 and requires a Spawning Pool to research, but it has a long research time. This change is being tested because Phoenix and Banshees are high risk low reward ventures. This gives a 120 second window for Air harass to be effective or allow for some defensive transitions to go underway before a hoard of Hydras come knocking. Queens have 7 range AA again to compensate.
One Voice Mod Update 11/26/2012 Roaches have been getting a good deal of love lately to better define them in the mid and late game. Roaches currently have 160 HP and base 2 armor. Do 16 damage with a slightly slower attack speed 2.2. Additionally, they move at 2.0 while borrowed. This week we will be testing a new Hive research for Roaches called Corrosive Pheromones, which applies a stack of Corrosive Pheromones to any unit that shares space with or is attacked by the Roach. Each stack reduces the armor of the target and reveals it for 10 seconds. This effect can stack up to three times and has a visual indicator. A special note, this debuff is applied when units are on top of burrowed roaches, allowing Zerg to better keep tabs on an army with a handful of roaches.
Infestors are getting a new research unlocked at hive called Resonance Chitin that allows them to use their spells while burrowed. This allows Infestors to use Neural Parasite while still allowing counterplay. Fungal's current state (slow instead of root) makes surprise Fungal Growths dangerous, but not devastating in the late game. The Infestor now feels very different from the Viper, focusing more on the element of surprise rather than prowling the skies looking for tasty units to pull.
I would really like changes to the corruptor to make them more interesting. In their current incarnation they are somewhat boring. I'm not sure if a direct damage spell is the way to do it but it's true that so far it's support spells have been lacking so maybe that's something to try.
Thanks for the read! I have posted the link on reddit. Again, the more visibility this stuff gets, the more likely Blizzard will respond to it. Spread the word and Upvote!
I've always been a huge advocate of switching the tech tiers of hydra and roach, its still one of my biggest desires for zerg. I really like the infestor ideas too, slowing enemy damage would be a nice trade for fungal damage.
These are fantastic. Your analysis and writing are top notch. Keep doing this.
As an aside, what about making the Roach and the Hydralisk both T1.5 and 1 supply? And opening up the possibility of these two units morphing at lair tech? I think having the roach be T1.5 and having it morph into the Swarm Host at lair tech, requiring a research from the Roach Warren (possibly titled Swarm Host Aspect) would be good. Ideally a 2 supply Swarm Host, but I doubt Blizzard is going to seriously consider the type of across-the-board supply cost reduction that SC2 needs. This also leaves the possibility of a lair tech hydralisk morph into a 2 supply power unit.
In any case, you are one thousand percent on point about the zerg units' supply cost being far and away too high, especially for the roach as compared to marauders and stalkers. Zerg units should be numerous and highly efficient, but with serious attrition from battle requiring resource expenditure to replenish.
On October 12 2012 08:24 ledarsi wrote: These are fantastic. Your analysis and writing are top notch. Keep doing this.
As an aside, what about making the Roach and the Hydralisk both T1.5 and 1 supply? And opening up the possibility of these two units morphing at lair tech? I think having the roach be T1.5 and having it morph into the Swarm Host at lair tech, requiring a research from the Roach Warren (possibly titled Swarm Host Aspect) would be good. Ideally a 2 supply Swarm Host, but I doubt Blizzard is going to seriously consider the type of across-the-board supply cost reduction that SC2 needs. This also leaves the possibility of a lair tech hydralisk morph into a 2 supply power unit.
In any case, you are one thousand percent on point about the zerg units' supply cost being far and away too high, especially for the roach as compared to marauders and stalkers. Zerg units should be numerous and highly efficient, but with serious attrition from battle requiring resource expenditure to replenish.
Thanks for reading! I intend on doing a write up for Terran tonight. I was intrigued by three T 1.5 units in Z's tech tree. In fact, there are old pictures of such things in the early-mid alpha. I think it provided Z with a large number of options that required different compositions to effectively deal with. Just a guess though. Making the Swarm Host 2 supply is interesting, as would making it from an existing unit would further the idea that Zerg is constantly evolving. For what they offer, I would argue Swarm Hosts are a great example of a 3 supply unit. They are powerful, and provide Z with an effective multiplier on the effective supply of the Zerg Swarm. If a Swarm Host has 3 generations of locusts trade effectively, then it has payed for itself (200/100 a heavy cost for a zerg unit). I would love to see how it works out at 2 supply, however.
Usually, when people make threads like these, there is a diamond among a giant pile worthless rocks. With this and your protoss thread, you have been shiting gold, diamonds and platinum in such quantities, mere rocks are now a rarity.
TLDR: Great ideas, hopefully blizzard would implement these, the game would have a great feel. Lets see a Terran thread? :D
On October 12 2012 11:56 RedDragon571 wrote: Usually, when people make threads like these, there is a diamond among a giant pile worthless rocks. With this and your protoss thread, you have been shiting gold, diamonds and platinum in such quantities, mere rocks are now a rarity.
TLDR: Great ideas, hopefully blizzard would implement these, the game would have a great feel. Lets see a Terran thread? :D
If you are looking for a Terran thread, you should check around noon tomorrow.
Switching roach and hydra has long been a dream of mine in sc2. I really, really like the infestor and corruptor changes however 100 dmg over 10 seconds seems too strong. Obviously the numbers don't mean anything but the core ideas are simply breathtaking. Thank you for sharing these!
I think you should try to make a map with your changes and see how well they work out and if they do. Show blizzard that they are worthy of being implemented in to the real game.
I dont think it was blizzard's design to encourage a less swarm like Zerg, in fact their actually trying to encourage it if you look at the new hydra and the viper. It may not be successful, but I genuinely think that they want to see more of a swarm rather than a infestor/broodlord deathball.
However, it is quite obvious it was blizzard's intent to 'standardize' the races more. The Marauder, Roach and Stalker are extremely similar in terms of their tech position and roles of being an early tanky, mobile, ranged dps. They however receive ability upgrades around the same timing that diversifies them.
BW Protoss was the only race that had an early tanky, mobile dps, you didn't need to make a lot of them for it to be efficient. It lowered the macro requirement for Protoss. It was evident that a lot casual players tended towards Protoss because tanky, mobile, ranged dps units are just easier to use.
The roach and marauder was probably blizzard's attempt at fixing this issue but at the cost of creating more 'standardized' races. The problem with BW Zerg's extreme emphasis on 'swarm play' was that it took better macro than a Protoss player since you need to crank out a lot more units. It also made flank/global play a lot more necessary. This was something that more casual/normal players weren't as good at. Dustin Browder has already stated they value players of all skill levels. It will be unlikely that the early tanky, mobile, ranged dps of zerg will be pushed to a higher tier and be replaced with an early ranged(but not tanky) dps that requires more 'swarm like' play. Alot of my friends that didn't play BW and i encouraged to play SC2 had a lot of complaints of Zerg being more difficult than Terran or Protoss when they first started multilayer despite this 'standardization'.
I love your analysis however and the changes that you suggest could make games a lot more entertaining at the pro level.
The idea is right (roaches and hydras are too supplyinefficient), the changes just won't work out at all. Your T2 roach concept is not strong enough for its costs, the hydralisk probably too strong.
Basically you shift all powers and roles from the roach and the infestor to the hydralisk.
Some of these proposed changes have been suggested way b in WOL beta, blizz has shown no sign to implement drastic changes such as these, hell they wont even implement the carrier micro mechanics from bw. On top of that, the fundamental system of sc2 is that all races requires a t1 armored unit, hydra ling would get owned by reaper hellion, thats the fundamental flaw of its system where it only has 2 types of units, light and armored whereas bw had 3 small, med and large.
On October 12 2012 14:29 reminisce12 wrote: Some of these proposed changes have been suggested way b in WOL beta, blizz has shown no sign to implement drastic changes such as these, hell they wont even implement the carrier micro mechanics from bw. On top of that, the fundamental system of sc2 is that all races requires a t1 armored unit, hydra ling would get owned by reaper hellion, thats the fundamental flaw of its system where it only has 2 types of units, light and armored whereas bw had 3 small, med and large.
Not actually true. Sc2 has light, armoured and plain biological (eg banelings).
Totally agree with much of the OP. As I posted earlier: T and P units have or gain more staying power with the ability to regenerate quickly between battles (medivacs, blink + regenerating shields). For zerg, only the roach gains this ability, which means all other units need to be disposable OR tanky OR highly mobile harass units OR spellcasters to be worth making. The current hydra is none of these.
For positional units like swarm hosts and siege tanks, the quantity you can actually field is incredibly important, as having a larger number gives you more possible ways to divide your army across positions. If you can only possibly have 33 swarm hosts (or tanks), you have far fewer options for how to divide that army than you do if you have 50.
In fact, especially for a unit like the swarm host, having greater quantity with weaker individuals is far more interesting than having a huge unit that costs more. Smaller, cheaper swarm hosts allow you finer control over how much you invest in them, and gives you more options about how to use their ability. Especially for spawning locusts, having greater quantity of swarm hosts allows the player to set up staggered waves at more varied intervals, apply constant pressure, or switch into a single concerted wave. Having more swarm hosts in more locations is also critical.
Not to mention having a higher cost per supply compared to more mobile units, allowing them to be stronger, but less tactically flexible. Using powerful positional units gives you a lot of power, provided you play methodically and well. Playing with slow units requires far more thought, and vastly superior mechanics, hand speed, and overall skill than using fast units.
I for one would massively enjoy having positional interplay between badass 2 supply tanks and amazing 2 supply swarm hosts (morphed from 1 supply roaches perhaps?). In this schema I am talking about a massive across-the-board supply cost drop for a huge number of units, not just these two. Small colossi, small ultras, small thors.... I can dream, can't I?
Sadly, the Hydralisk in SC2 is so bad that its only buff from BW is +2 attack damage. In exchange for which it became a lair tech unit, costing twice as much supply, and also 25 more minerals and gas. Most likely the hydra could become a 1 supply unit with only a slight damage nerf without issue.
On October 12 2012 13:10 I_Destroy wrote: I think you should try to make a map with your changes and see how well they work out and if they do. Show blizzard that they are worthy of being implemented in to the real game.
Designing a game around timings is a mistake. Timings are emergent. The game should be designed around unit interactions and mechanics, and making those interactions fun and interesting for the player. Specific timings, strategies, and builds should be created in response to the structure of the game. The structure of the game should not ever respond to the strategies in vogue, or common builds and timings. Players should invent these things in response to the game, not the other way around.
I like the OP very much and I do believe that the proposed changes would help in the issues with zerg, but I think there are also very large assumptions that aren’t being addressed.
One, is the fact that Blizzard has constantly stated that they DO NOT WANT BROOD WAR UNITS in SC2. Regardless of how much it would help balance the game, they want this game to be unique with its own unique tech trees and units. So this concerns the proposed Hydralisk which is basically a BW hydralisk. As much as I’d love to see BW hydras back in the game, I just don’t think it’s happen.
I, personally, have been thinking about this also. (I am a Protoss Player so take this with a grain of salt) The issue I’ve always had with the Zerg design is the roach and how it just isn’t Zerg-like. On top of that, it’s just a really awesome, but boring unit. It’s a tank that has high health, high damage, as well as incredible speed. The only things holding it back are its range and attack speed to an extent. Did anyone know that with the speed upgrade, roaches are faster than stalkers… OFF CREEP.
If I could propose some tweaks to the OP that are more probable because of how Blizzard wants the game to be unique and have its own identity. I think the Corrupter changes are great.
Roach speed should be cut out and moved to the Hydra Den so that hydras can get speed faster (from hive to lair) This gives zerg a power damage dealer in the mid game and makes more sense as Hydras are the damage dealers and should be able to kite with their range.
Make Roach tunneling claws give Roaches a speed buff while burrowed, maybe to 2.75. This way roaches can still retreat, and since they will be healing while burrowed, that speed doesn’t need to be huge. The skill ceiling will rise because opposing players will need to target fire to actually kill roaches underground. As a result of roaches losing their early speed upgrade, it would be required to be buffed in another aspect. I would suggest increasing attack speed slightly, or increasing range +1 again to compensate. This, I feel will create new, innovative play with burrow being used more effectively and knowing when to unburrow to attack. It gives Zerg their speedy Hydras without reverting back to BW hydras, plus hydras keep their insane new damage, now being worth the new cost.
Addressing the issue that the roach is 2 supply… I don’t really have too much of an opinion here, but to say that decreasing the supply to 1 would need nerfs to damage and health significantly to the roach, possibly even losing its role as a tank because roaches would be so incredibly overwhelming.
On giant, giant maps, sc2 is actually starting to look more like BW. I've always maintained that the biggest difference is that units in SC2 move too fast.
On a totally related note, awesome thread. Loved the 'history' and identity you presented.
Along with the previous part in the series (and probably the coming), this was such a great read and great propositions. Love the corruptor changes you proposed, and even the hydra roach switch (which of course would have to be balanced). Infestor change seems pretty good as well. I never liked the rooting of fungal growth to be honest. Anything that prevents micro is a bad thing, I'm pretty sure.
Also, with the early hydras, protoss air could be buffed in order to make it more viable. Which I think is great.
Great thread, and I'm, looking forward to reading your upcoming terran counterpart.
if this was implemented I would start playing again. Great ideas, not over the top stupid like some of the stuff I've read. The only problem I see is that you would open with 2 light units, making Hellions super strong against you early game army.
Love the ideas, though perhaps the T1 hydra is a bit too similar to the Marauder and Stalker with having a large unit bonus. Obviously the Queen losing its anti-air follows from that.
I think I'd actually go further and give the Roach its passive regeneration ability back if it was at T2. Make it a bit weaker than proposed so it's not just an Ultralisk-lite, so they die in battle, but those that survive get back to combat effectiveness rapidly.
On October 12 2012 19:24 eu.exodus wrote: if this was implemented I would start playing again. Great ideas, not over the top stupid like some of the stuff I've read. The only problem I see is that you would open with 2 light units, making Hellions super strong against you early game army.
Then you havent thought about 30min long baneling wars ot +1 7gate zealot
Just a quick tip - when you compare the damage of BW units and WOL units - please compare the dps, not the damage - someone pointed this out in your previous post.
On October 12 2012 20:07 Tankz123 wrote: Just a quick tip - when you compare the damage of BW units and WOL units - please compare the dps, not the damage - someone pointed this out in your previous post.
The problem is, that DPS is only half the story or not even. How fast a unit shoots and how high the dmg is, is just as important as the actual DPS and more important when it comes to its "character".
To do another BW to SC2 comparison.
The Dragoon feels nothing like the Stalker or Immortal because it's attack rate/dmg was sooo different. IT "felt" vastly stronger than other somewhat similar units like the Hydra or.. Marine... But it's DPS was iirc VERY suppar per cost (but not much per supply). This is also because only Toss had the strong AE-Spells which made Goons seem WAY more long lasting than comparable amounts of Hydras or Marines. Same with the Zealot and Zergling... That gave the whole race it's identity, which just isn't really there anymore in SC2 due to weaker AE and less diffrences between Stalker <-> Roach (and Hydra) <-> Marauder. The untis in SC2 in general just feel way too similar.
Nice article. I agree with most changes though I would not like for the Queen to lose its anti air. The only reason I say that ks because of the mothership core which comes into the game very early, so you HAVE to get hydras very quickly every single game, which would suck. For the other races it doesn't matter that much, because their anti air is in every tech path anyway.
Further, yes Hydra as tier 1 would be cool, but there are a few things to consider as well. First, if you want hydras to actually play out like in BW, the attack animation would have to be changed as well, since atm you can't kite with hydras or they'll lose half their attack.
Further, something that obviously can be changed/balanced, but the hydra damage is quite high. In BW the hydra is balanced due to the fact that it did only small amounts of damage to small units. Here it would suddenly get a 50% damage increase versus Zealots and Marines. While cool, it shouldn't be like that that the hydra can counter ALL other tier 1 units.
Balance can be so annoying. Roach started out at 1 supply but it didn't worked out. I wouldn't mind if they would nerf them so that 1 supply works at the end. Zerg would have their swarmy feel a harder to control and more expensive unit. Doubt the hydra can be fit into a t1 unit. But i wouldn't really mind. At the end it would be just a model exchange. And wow 8 super marines for 100/100, thats a steal.
On October 12 2012 22:29 Velr wrote: The problem is, that DPS is only half the story or not even. How fast a unit shoots and how high the dmg is, is just as important as the actual DPS and more important when it comes to its "character".
Yes DPS is not really useful. But so is damage, knowing the damage doesn't help you if you don't know the attack speed. Roach and Zealot basically do the same damage, but the Zealot almost attacks twice as fast. Range and movement speed also play a role etc. But if you use Damage as an argument and disregard the attack speed it is pretty bad. Then DPS is actually better ... and DPS doesn't say alot.
DPS is an important statistic, but it I would argue that damage values are more important due to their interaction with armor. The lower the damage value, or the more the attack volley is split, the more effective armor becomes at mitigating it. DPS is a hard statistic to read into other than "man, if I leave this thing in my base, I will take X damage as Y seconds pass."
I definitely like the idea of corrupters having a different ability! Although I wouldnt mind if their current ability gets splash. That alone I feel would make their use more viable. But corruption egg seems interesting... :D
good thoughts, and you get respones; i wish i got responses like that. Also note that zealots do better vs 4 lings than in BW, you didnt' account for the significant differences in attack speed between BW and sc2. I strongly agree with switching the roach and hydra tech tree positions, it's one i've been favoring for quite awhile too. The roach you propose would be quite weak for its cost,so it would truly need to be supplemented by other units.
On October 12 2012 19:24 eu.exodus wrote: if this was implemented I would start playing again. Great ideas, not over the top stupid like some of the stuff I've read. The only problem I see is that you would open with 2 light units, making Hellions super strong against you early game army.
Then you havent thought about 30min long baneling wars ot +1 7gate zealot
Hydras are pretty good vs non-charge zealots, and in zvz no one makes roaches before lair anyway. The Queen vs Mothership Core is actually an issue i believe.
Liked the other 2, seem the series ran kinda out of steam.
Switching of Roach and Hydra was said so often, I don´t believe in it anymore. By having no mobile T1, Zerg have the freedom to have stronger anti ground capabilities. zerg are about speed and counter attacking. When enemies take to the air, just overwhelming them at the ground in such high numbers they can´t be killed by air units in time is a very zerg like move to me. Even comparably high numbers of banshees can´t protect a base from dying against a banelingbust.
What I would like, however, is to have both Roaches(and maybe Hydras) made into smaller 1 supply units. 1 supply 90 hp roaches that do 12 damage every 2.5 seconds. An actual speed upgrade for hydras that puts them on par with roaches or faster. Increase hydra hp to 90-100(armor stays 0), maybe do something to damage but by god, please, make them move a lot faster. Much faster. Right now roaches and hydras are fucked up on the scale of slow & strong ->fast & fragile Roaches are fast and strong, Hydras are slow and fragile, which is just flat out wrong.
at the start i disagreed on all your changes, since they seemed silly. But now i don't even know what to think of it. The changes are so big that it would be an entirely different game.
The hope is that some of these tweaks would make Starcraft 2 shine as its own game while still incorporating the lessons learned from Brood War. I really admire the mechanics and design in Starbow, but the the game's architecture relies too heavily on Brood War units for Blizzard to be able to adopt it.
If this were a lesser website where silly images were considered acceptable responses, I'd post one of a very please seal pup with the caption "Seal of Approval" underneath it.
Conceptually, there is no argument that Zerg playstyle should be defined by its tendency to aggressiveness to gain territory; this is reinforced by "insect" stereotypes across various movies and games including starship troopers, world of warcraft (AQ40, Mantid), natural selection etc.
Zerg units, as mentioned in the OP, are defined by their cheapness on a 1-to-1 basis (supply and cost wise), and have a reasonably mobile yet powerful army which allows them to take control of large swathes of the map quickly. The essential drawback of Zerg units are their frailty and extreme vulnerability to powerful AOE, as well as their short range. This means that they require a high level of technical finesse to control, perhaps just as much so as Terran. Zerg units must be spread out across a long line ("front" in military terminology) or in small groups. Rushing all of them in a ball will result in most of them derping around and dying without doing anything. The popular "Zerg Rush" cannot and should not be performed into a choke against someone with a brain; it has to be done intelligently and carefully, with spread out forces across multiple selection groups to trap and cut off the retreat of an enemy and also to maximise surface area.
Failure to surround with zerglings, failure to babysit defilers, failure to control the muta ball properly, failure to clone scourges, failure to burrow/unburrow lurkers, forgetting about burrowed lurkers and a-moving huge clumps of hydras into storms/tanks are common mistakes that still happen in many OSL level games...long story short, controlling the Zerg army is very, very difficult and miscontrolling them is very, very punishing. In an even game there is no such thing as 1a2a3a. If you do that then Zerg is terrible.
Additionally, the more bases a Zerg acquires, the harder it gets to defend them all because their forces will be spread thin, and Zerg units perform terribly when Terran/Protoss players drop a crack squad into a perfect position. This makes the preservation of mutas and patrolling scourges very important throughout the game.
Practically, this is not the case in SC2. The Zerg player is seldom aggressive, preferring to stay on 3-4 bases which are designed to be easy to defend. Predictably, it is difficult to stop 3 base play without an all-in. There are very few scenarios that will gain you an strategical advantage by pressuring the Zerg around the 10-12 minute mark. Meaning that if you attack perfectly in the midgame and the Zerg defends perfectly, you will gain nothing out of it.
Similarly, if any attack is made by the Zerg on lair tech, it is also going to be an all-in. So "standard play" has devolved into a rush to hive tech and infestor/BL blockades, which are incidentally so slow, it is hard to be aggressive with them. It becomes more like the lategame of other races, where you simply make a doom push across the map and trade to win.
This is quite anti-zerg play. In fact it sounds a lot like BW PvZ where you 2 base and tech, turtle against hydra busts, creep out to take a 3rd before making a powerful high tech army to steamroll the enemy. Or TvZ mech play. In other words, it sucks.
If this is to change, I think that spawn larvae should be nerfed and supply costs should go down, allowing the Zerg to make a bigger army but forcing them to take more bases overall. Infestors are a horrible unit overall and promote turtling, and it is far too easy to use fungal growth to stop entire armies in their tracks so that BLs can fire with impunity and screw up pathing. In general I feel that powerful AOE spells (storm, fungal, EMP, HSM, the new dark swarm, the "grab" mechanic) should never be on smart cast and be buffed to compensate.
I would also welcome a more mobile hydralisk that swaps tiers with the roach, which should be a "specialist" unit instead of a dragoon with extraordinarily high health and extraordinarily weak DPS.
A reversion to the previous idea of the roach, an average unit with below average DPS but very high regeneration, could be interesting. This may help in defending additional bases where the enemy could be forced to choose between killing the hatch or killing the roaches - in other words, a delaying tactic.
On October 12 2012 19:24 eu.exodus wrote: if this was implemented I would start playing again. Great ideas, not over the top stupid like some of the stuff I've read. The only problem I see is that you would open with 2 light units, making Hellions super strong against you early game army.
the very simple fix to this would be to make hydras non light. they already have such a small HP pool that it would not affect them too much and solve the problem of having too much early anti light damage available
So I've been thinking on these issues for a long time.
Essentially, the balance structure of SC2 demands a T1.5 Armoured Unit. Otherwise Banelings/Reapers/Hellions just wreck Zerg. However, the Roach just doesn't feel right in this position. Nor does the Hydra feel right at Tier 2. In mirror matchups, there is a requirement for a rock-paper-scissors mechanic or otherwise the matchups degenerate fairly promptly.
In effect, the Roach is required at T1.5. Or something like the roach which is a point a lot of people seem to be missing.
If I were to design the Roach from the ground up, the following would design would apply (NOTE I AM NOT SUGGESTING THESE CHANGES, merely remarking on what a characterful roach might look like):
This unit is designed to be annoying/threatening Failure to get detection is a mistake In its final form, it moves faster underground than above ground (it is not a main army unit, it is harrass or detachment) Focus fire is a must It has to still be a threat while burrowed
Specifics: 1 Food. Average Health (60-80 range) with 2 Armour. Average above-ground movement. Slow burrowed movement by default. Upgradeable to movement faster than above-ground movement. Fast regeneration while burrowed (upgradeable to grant super fast undeground and fast-ish above ground regen) Immediate access to burrow (suggests a tier 2 unit). Damage, low DPS in a straight confrontation which suggests perhaps a DOT would work. Eg. maybe 8 per shot (long cool-down) plus 1 DPS for 8 seconds after (Or 2 for 4).
Theoretical use: I tech to roaches in the same way I might tech to DTs or Banshees. This fellows sneak around, pop up, let off a few shots and wait for the DOT to deal damage while regenerating underground. The faster underground movement makes micro a must. However they are pretty weak to things like tanks or immortals (2-shotted) and detection seriously limits their effectiveness.
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So if this were the roach, then what would be at tier 1, because it's clearly not a tier 1 unit. Hydra fine, but then all light would be very vulnerable. Maybe a different tier 1 armoured unit which feels a bit more zergy, that can stand up to zealots, reapers, hellions and banelings... It might require the baneling to become Tier 2 instead. If so burrow could be Tier 1 again.
So a different lineup might look like Tier 1: Zergling/Armoured Unit/Hydra. Tier 2: Baneling/Roach
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As for the Corruptor, why don't just have its ability that it can periodically drop some broodlings as a spell. Get 4 corruptors, drop 8 broodlings on the opposing mineral lines. Something like annoying vikings/phoenixs
the lurker mutated from the hydralisk (tier1.5) the guardian evolved from the mutalisk the devourer evolved from the mutalisk
all units that arent available from larvae but are evolved from existing primary attack units (the hydra and mutalisk)
these units had supporting roles the their predecessors and greatly enhanced the feel of the zerg as a selectively constantly mutating army that reacts to it's opponents army composition on the go.
Acid Spittle (same as current roach for visuals) range:4 (same as roach) Damage: 12 (+1/upgrade) (reduced by 4 and 1 less dmg/ upgrade than roach) cooldown: 2 sec (same as roach)
Projected Change: This new mini roach still fills the role of early game meat shield and ranged support to zerglings but no longer is a burrow specialist. with it's new upgrade it heals for an average of 2.5 HP/sec in combat making it a great damage absorbing unit. due to the nature of its healing ability it is weakest when retreating.
now we have a tier 1.5 unit that is massable, feels zergy and retains the roach's role in the early game.
now for the fun part:
new upgrade at roach warren available at lair tech:
Evolve Roach
costs 200/200 90 seconds
gives mini roaches the ability to mutate into the new powerful Tier 2 Roach
[NEW TIER 2 ROACH]
visuals: 1.2x the size of the current roach with much larger melee claws and a segmented carapace
Roaches move at 90% speed while burrowed (upgrades to 120% speed)
Burrow movement upgrade is available at the roach warren for 150m150g/60sec
Projected Change: This new Roach mutation is sturdier and is specialized as a burrow infiltration unit and mid game front line beef unit. its passive poison damage promotes hit and run tactics to gain the most dps and while it's above ground speed is quite bad it makes up for it by being able to effectively stealth at will with little cost to mobility and even increased mobility with upgrades.
now we have a weaker tier 1.5 roach and a specialist mutation available at tier 2
Zerg Suggestion #2 Another change i would like to see but is not tied to the above roach changes is the increase substantially the number of selective mutations available to the zerg using the existing units.
Now there are only 7 units created from larvae as basic building blocks to your swarm from these units you mutate selective broods into the supporting roles your army needs depending on the situation
Projected change:
with this structure you would see larger fodder armies support but specialized "mutations" leading to a much more swarmy zerg. all zerg casters (apart from queen) are now created from basic warrior broods (mini roach and mutalisk). i feel like this brings home the true feeling of being a giant living swarm of constantly evolving organisms.
PS: sorry for hijacking your threads i just love your ideas so much and want to contribute my thoughts. i just made my account here so i cant start my own threads for another day
I like the idea of having the Roach as an upgrade from a earlier-tier roach. Life-steal is also a neat idea for adding durability without creating serious imbalances.
Still, it is such a 'large' change as to be unviable.
On October 22 2012 13:29 Goobahfish wrote: I like the idea of having the Roach as an upgrade from a earlier-tier roach. Life-steal is also a neat idea for adding durability without creating serious imbalances.
Still, it is such a 'large' change as to be unviable.
wtb starcraft 3
edit: i wish that they made larger sweeping changes with each starcraft 2 patch instead of add better graphics and 2 units per race hurr durr new game.
making larger sweeping changes that build upon the previous build would be alot of work but i would shell out an extra 10 bucks an expansion for it.
With such a "wall of text" you should really put a lot of effort into formatting to make reading it easier.
I dont like the Corruption Egg spell for the simple reason that it deals damage. Spellcasters which deal damage are very very powerful and since they are an air unit AND pretty tough themselves you can pretty much vaporize enemy air units on their own. (You didnt say it was "ground target only", which seems intended by the broodling spawning.) Corruptors are a great and useful unit because they can morph into Broodlords and are pretty tough AA flyers. That should be enough!
The change to Fungal Growth is nice and it is a good alternative version. However I dont like the "8 seconds duration" which is AGES in SC2. Instead of this it should create a cloud that lasts 8 seconds and if you move out of it you get rid of the effect.
Sadly you mentioned the "free infested Terrans" but didnt decide to get rid of it. This would be a good thing, because you try to make Zerg "more swarmy" (which I approve) with lower supply units.
The Zerg race *should be* all about requiring to rebuild units and wearing down the enemy as you said, BUT since they can "trade equal or better" (just get a few lucky/skilled hits with Banelings against Marines) and the opponent has to become a Zerg himself the whole thing is kinda not balanced between the races. Thus some more drastic measures are REQUIRED to give them back this feeling (see below).
All in all I think these pipedreams are pretty much useless, because you focus too much on the UNITS and forget to look at the MECHANICS which make the races terrrible to balance and limited.
The good old days 1. Production as in BW/SLOW = GOOD; FAST =/= automatically GOOD Getting rid of all production speed boosts for all races and all economic boosts will make the game slower and thus increase the importance of the individual unit. The game would also benefit from reducing the density of ground units, because they are the key reason why air units are pretty useless (10-20 tighly packed and stimmed Marines or Stalkers or Hydras shoot down very expensive air units easily) for example and why defensive structures are not a huge stumbling block in an attackers path. I always wonder why commentators say "he is safe because he built ONE Spine Crawler" ... which doesnt do much on its own.
2. Unit movement and clumping The way to improve the game and have an easier way to balance the game is NOT forward, but backwards! BW had overpowered units but it didnt matter, because you didnt lose all your army when you ran into a Lurker or Siege Tank with a few of your units. People say that the tight formations is a "technological improvement", but thats a stupid reason to keep it, because "logic" is not a requirement in such a game and thus certain limitations can be introduced to make the game easier to balance. Limitations on the number of units in a group AND each ground unit requiring more space will make the game better not only for viewers, but also for casuals who arent going to be overrun that easily by every opponent who simply chooses to go aggressive instead of economic.
3. Pacing and battles BW had a nice pacing of the game compared to SC2, because it was a WAR where you had lots of battles and engagements everywhere instead of two maxed armies dancing forwards and backwards until they annihilate each other in a 20 second engagement. This is the real culprit why SC2 is kinda boring ... it is over too quick and battles between two Zerg forces are terrible to watch. TLO vs Nerchio yesterday gave just such an example, because everything gets fungaled and you cant tell one Zerg side from the other; lots of green Roach shots add to the general "greenness" of the screen. In any case the battle is over after a few seconds. Boring to watch and I will remember their "friendly banter" at the start of the match much more than the games themselves.
+10 this is awesome. The changes are about right what the swarm needs. What about a lair/hive tech option to give hydras a passive attack when in contact with enemy melee units (they do have spines afterall) so that hydras have a soft counter to chargelots/burrow ultras/lings and they are viable late game?
I love this thread. I simply cannot express my disdain for the Roach though. It's not a Zerg-like unit at all. It's badly designed given its output and cost, boring to watch, predictable in matches, irritating to fight against because it's so resilient as a Tier 1.5 unit, and can be way too cost-effective until the late game. There is basically no other unit in PvZ that you can be like "What do I do I might be screwed because I was too greed? I wait, I'll just spam this one with Lings." besides the Mutalisk than the Roach and Mutalisks are a considerable investment at least. I simply feel that it was just a bad design choice to fill that second-tier Zerg role before the weak Hydra we have now.
Therefore, after reading your suggested changes for the Roach and Hydra, I absolutely agree with you. The tech levels simply need reversing and I love that you see the Roach as a stepping ladder to Ultras in the evolution chain. It's not so much that I hate the Roach's concept, it's just that its design as a Tier 1.5 unit is pathetic and simply out of place. If the changes ever did happen, I'd be glad to say that upon seeing Roach tech I'd be like "Oh snap, he's going for Roaches" rather than "Ugh. Roaches."
So how do we feel about a delicate lithe flying unit with little flappy wings called Viper pulling units weighing tons such as siege tanks (even in siege mode) across a long distance using its tongue (?) without any visible physical exertion?
I know it's got its uses, but I wonder why it couldn't be made more believable.
On October 31 2012 12:19 Proseat wrote: So how do we feel about a delicate lithe flying unit with little flappy wings called Viper pulling units weighing tons such as siege tanks (even in siege mode) across a long distance using its tongue (?) without any visible physical exertion?
I know it's got its uses, but I wonder why it couldn't be made more believable.
I think the distance that it pulls should decrease based on if the unit is Massive or Aerial. It does look really silly and kind of craps on gameplay to an extent.
" Here we see a distinct relationship between Zerg units and their tier 1 counterparts. Zerglings will always lose on a unit to unit basis. However 2 Zerglings will eat a Marine, and 4 Zerglings will overwhelm a Zealot. Cost for cost, Zerglings are the most efficient ground unit in terms of damage "
isn't really true. This statement only applies on low count of units, because 20 marines will destroy 40 lings in matter of seconds
I've been trying, very inarticulately, to discuss your proposed changes to the hydra and the roach. I'd like to just bump the thread to say that the hydra changes are brilliant and make the hydra a viable unit early game to late, and the tier 2.5 roach so well suits the design of the unit, and addresses the metagame which revoles around needing force multipliers (or significant harassment options) after lair. Not to mention this makes sense roach abilities of burrowed regen and burrow-movement.
An early game ranged attacker would allow zerg to pressure Terran or Protoss wall-ins if they are fast expanding, and a weak-vs-light hydra would be chased off by small numbers of units in the early game.
So in lore the hydralisk evolves to the lurker so why not switch the tiers of the hydralisk and the roach and then move the Swarm Host to an evolution of the roach? nerf Queens to make them want to run or burrow to air harass that the earlier hydras would make up for in defense.
This gives the roach better transitional play instead of, 'Oh, I need to make room for corruptors for my broodlords, better make a good attack and let them all get killed'. this would promote a roach/swarm host army while producing infestors to then corruptor/broodlord/swarm host/infestor army which basically gives the zerg every unit that produces energy units to swarm the opponent. If a terran or protoss let the zerg get that far they will have to find a way to deal with the impending swarm. but as mentioned earlier here in this thread switcing the roach and the hydra promotes harass and anti-light builds early game against zerg so it gives plenty of opportunities for smart harassing players to cripple the zerg enough to move out their army before the zerg can get up the units he'd like most to have, which from a spectator view point will make sure that all ZvX early games are exciting since it would be advantagious for the terran or protoss to start slowing the swarm's build up.
OP: I very much agree with switching the tiers of roaches and hydras. While your numbers may need some tweaking, the reasoning behind them is more than solid. I have a set of changes that I believe remains true to your ideas but might attain the goal of switching the tiers of roaches and hydras just as well as yours :D If they're terrible feel free to criticize :D
~Hydra Den: 150/0; 40s; Req. Spawning Pool ~Muscular Augments: 125/125; 90s; Req. Lair; Increases Hydralisk off-creep movespeed to 3.375. (Same as on-creep) ~Remove Grooved Spines * ~Change Hydralisk rotation time to that of a marine, because being able to micro is cool. ~Hydralisk: 65/25; 25s; 75 Life; 0 armor; 5 Range; 8 (+3 Armored) / 0.87 DPS; 1 supply; Biological. This makes hydras viable against Hellions and makes them not insta-die to speedbanes. 8 base damage makes Hydras larva-effective vs lings by 5-shotting them (as they're not cost-effective until higher numbers), which, combined with the attribute change, prevents ZvZ from becoming endless banewars and causes it to tend more towards hydra-ling for the midgame. Additionally, 8 base damage increases their effectiveness against Marines before CS (7 -> 6 shots). However, the small(er) health pool of 75 makes hydras die in two shots to +1 tanks assuming no armor upgrades on the hydras. Changing the damage to +armored makes the hydra a more clear counter to the stalker whilst being relatively terrible vs the zealot. Decreasing rate of fire to .87 from .83 makes hydra v. marine battles more marine-favored. The mineral cost is not a multiple of 25, but 75/25 seemed too much while 50/25 seemed too little.
~Roach Warren: 175/50; 55s; Req. Lair ~Tunneling Claws: 150/150; 70s; Req. None. Drastically reduced research time to account for build time of the warren itself, which can't be started until Lair. ~Spawning Seeds: 50/50; 40s; Req. None. (Researched @ Infestation Pit) Allows Roaches to morph into Swarm Hosts for 100/75 and 1 supply. ~Roach: 100/25; 30s; 175 Life; 2 armor; 3.5 Range; 19 / 2 DPS; 3 Movespeed; 2 supply; Armored Biological. The increased life enables Roaches to survive 3 tank shots, and 19 base damage allows Roaches to 3-shot CS marines on equal or lesser upgrades (Until +2 attack for roaches). Range reduced so as to decrease role overlap and increase synergy between Roach and Hydra. The swarm host research kind of helps the infestation pit become a kind of second-tier upgrade structure a la twilight council. This would also make it more appealing to build the pit despite the weaker fungal you've suggested. Perhaps more could be done with this.
*Or, remove muscular augments, increase hydra base movement to 2.5 (3.75 on creep), and change the range increase to +2. Because paying 150/150 for +1 range is stupid.
Just a friendly update on what is going on with Zerg this week in OneVoice:
Hydralisk's have had their damage increased and their attack damage decreased as well as some tweaks to their attack animation to allow them to stutterer-step. This is in an ongoing effort to encourage micro with T 1.5 units. Hydralisks currently require Grooved Spines (range upgrade) to attack air. It is cheap 100/100 and requires a Spawning Pool to research, but it has a long research time. This change is being tested because Phoenix and Banshees are high risk low reward ventures. This gives a 120 second window for Air harass to be effective or allow for some defensive transitions to go underway before a hoard of Hydras come knocking. Queens have 7 range AA again to compensate.
Roaches have been getting a good deal of love lately to better define them in the mid and late game. Roaches currently have 160 HP and base 2 armor. Do 16 damage with a slightly slower attack speed 2.2. Additionally, they move at 2.0 while borrowed. This week we will be testing a new Hive research for Roaches called Corrosive Pheromones, which applies a stack of Corrosive Pheromones to any unit that shares space with or is attacked by the Roach. Each stack reduces the armor of the target and reveals it for 10 seconds. This effect can stack up to three times and has a visual indicator. A special note, this debuff is applied when units are on top of burrowed roaches, allowing Zerg to better keep tabs on an army with a handful of roaches.
Infestors are getting a new research unlocked at hive called Resonance Chitin that allows them to use their spells while burrowed. This allows Infestors to use Neural Parasite while still allowing counterplay. Fungal's current state (slow instead of root) makes surprise Fungal Growths dangerous, but not devastating in the late game. The Infestor now feels very different from the Viper, focusing more on the element of surprise rather than prowling the skies looking for tasty units to pull.
No AA Queen seems really bad, I mean it's going to be 1-1-1 heaven in ZvT, because no AA queens mean invest heavily into spores and that means less drones -> less eco -> less units
I don't see this become a viable option
Also T1.5 hydra means really week against early hellions runby if there isn't a sim-city and it disables the roach pressure openings and violet push-like builds so less pressure from Z.
On November 26 2012 18:36 GregMandel wrote: No AA Queen seems really bad, I mean it's going to be 1-1-1 heaven in ZvT, because no AA queens mean invest heavily into spores and that means less drones -> less eco -> less units
I don't see this become a viable option
Also T1.5 hydra means really week against early hellions runby if there isn't a sim-city and it disables the roach pressure openings and violet push-like builds so less pressure from Z.
You are right, no AA on the Queen was bad, and we reverted it. Hellions are not as strong as Hydras as you might think! Hydras have Medium armor, meaning they take half damage from light and armored bonuses (Like Brood War). This makes Hydras vs Hellions depend on upgrades and positioning. If the Hydras can keep the hellions at bay with good splits, their superior dps will drive away the Hellions. However, it the Hydras clump up a bit too much, Hellions can swing in and use their overlapping AoE to wipe them out. Having seen players better than me go about it, I can say that it is REALLY cool to watch.
EPT
