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On September 29 2012 19:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Basically turn widow mines into absurdly expensive spider mines. As they consume 2 food instead of 0.33 food, and more mins and gas than one vulture.
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No. Just no.
What are you talking about now?
The current state of the widow mine is exactly what you describe: an expensive spider mine that consumes 2 supply.
The vulture was 75 minerals if I recall correctly though.
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I like this new idea a lot. Fingers crossed.
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On September 29 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 19:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Basically turn widow mines into absurdly expensive spider mines. As they consume 2 food instead of 0.33 food, and more mins and gas than one vulture.
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No. Just no. What are you talking about now? The current state of the widow mine is exactly what you describe: an expensive spider mine that consumes 2 supply. The vulture was 75 minerals if I recall correctly though.
Spider mines cannot hit air.
Spider mines can be destroyed before detonation.
Spider mines cannot be redeployed.
Spider mines had terrible AI and an entire field of spider mines could be theoretically cleared by sacing a mobile low cost unit.
Spider mines do less damage (120 vs. 160) but have a more powerful splash damage (120 vs 60).
Spider mines ≠ widow mines.
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On September 29 2012 16:25 avilo wrote:
Or instead of throwing out all these crazy insane ideas and concepts they could simply make the widow mine 0-1 supply. And then you know, test it in this thing called the beta.
Widow mines are cool, they just will never work with a supply cost, that's all.
But the supply cost isn't the only (or even the worst) problem with the widow mine. What I hate most about the spider mine is how it feels. It feels like a baneling that only works when burrowed. It overlaps conceptually with the baneling, and even then, it doesn't feel like a full-fledged unit. Nobody would like the baneling if you could ONLY burrow it and cross your fingers that someone would run over it. And then there's the hitting air issue with the widow mine and how it discourages air and drop harass, but does so in a luck-based, binary way.
Sometimes you have to recognize that the unit's design is the problem and come back with a better idea before you worry about balance. It's worked for the mothership core (and the warhound if you count "nothing" as a better idea).
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widow mine feels like that unit from broodwar u wanted to play around with and control... but could not do!
like a metalic spider dog to the marines. but in BW they only borrowed ran a bit and exploded. no control no play...
so now for the first time we get to play with 2 fooded mech spider mine. that we dreamed of in all these years!
would be great if they gave it more - whatever that made them more interesting than the banelings!..
-my image of banelings: banelings runs toward spreading marines... teran scans over ground to move over
-my image of spidermines: alone in the dark desert someone poops a mine, someone else walks there maybe someday
if the mines could be used active in micro. maybe do some tanking
speed/acceleration... just so good terrans can micro there marines and then run in there mines to make stuff intressting
health so they can "tank up" unfocused splash damage and burrow under that (battlecruiser to BOOM)
self resurection after explode, heal from 1 hp? needs to reburrow and cooldown to attack again
what if the widowmine crawls around and then jumps in to do the attack goes BOOM and sits on cooldown and 1 hp? without burrow...
ability to individualy upgrade widow mine to carry effects
-PSI minie..
-mine controll mine
-stun mine...
-mini trackers that jumps on units and let u know thoose units location for some time
-give each mine ability to build a new mine for the same cost as from the factory :D
-mini shredding
widowmine that idea.....its currently a luker who create burrowed banelings, like the original idea in this post, i think that sounds cool for the singleplayer. not the best for HOTS MP...!
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On September 29 2012 16:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 16:25 avilo wrote:
Or instead of throwing out all these crazy insane ideas and concepts they could simply make the widow mine 0-1 supply. And then you know, test it in this thing called the beta.
Widow mines are cool, they just will never work with a supply cost, that's all. Or instead of pretending they are not working, we could acknowledge that pepole do have some success with them as they are now.
No one is arguing that they aren't decent in the 6-10 minute mark. Beyond though they are worthless due to their supply cost.
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They're good for discouraging drop and air harass play at all stages of the game.
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That sounds really boring, with widow mines you can atleast target what units you wan't to kill and there is atleast some micro involved, for this it is only burrow and forget.
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On September 30 2012 08:58 Tedde93 wrote:
That sounds really boring, with widow mines you can atleast target what units you wan't to kill and there is atleast some micro involved, for this it is only burrow and forget.
The unit would build multiple widow mines. You could do everything you can do with a widow mine, except you'd have more of them, and you'd have a unit to protect.
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Initial impressions:
It has to be semi expensive and 2 supply. I cant imagine how it being cheap and spammable would be balanced at all.
I'm glad it does not target air. Mech i think should have some vulnerability to air units.
So the shredder sets up a cone area where mines deploy into... are the mines deployed in the area randomly or do we individaully tell it where to set the mines? Do we control the mines afterwards, or are they on an autocast attack? Is there any bonus dmg attributes? Will the AI function the same?
Theory Crafting:
Howling Peaks -- TvP -- 13-16 minutes in. 3v3 Base (Howling peaks was the one with the XelNaga Caverns style natural right?)
90ish supply of Tank Hellion pushing up through middle to ATK protoss 3rd. /// 100ish supply Protoss Zealot Archon swings left for a counter attack, hoping to recall back to natural after damage dealt. /// Terran scans Protoss comes down from top left. /// 4 shredders guard the 3rd from the top. /// They were pre set up about 10 (ingame) seconds before, allowing all 5 widow mines to deploy. //// Zlot Archon has no observer with it, so it runs headlong into minefield.
"ITS A TRAP!"
Mines auto cast detonate -> priority target on the big clumps of units (AI rework). /// 20ish supply is killed almost instantly by 10/20 mines. Protoss backs off a bit... hesitates... then decides to go for it anyways. 4 mines get replenished (1 by each shredder) during hesitation. /// Loses another 15ish supply (about 5 zlots and an archon or so...) ///
Mean while Terran Mech has had just enough time to siege: kill third: unsiege: and is on way back home. He loses his third, but protoss has been so stilted by the mines/ the planetary (lol), the just built reinforcements, and the returning army that he loses 70/100ish supply of his zlot archon. /// Protoss proceeds to die to counter attack.
(Also, shredders repositioned and replenished mines, denying the protoss last desperate counter).
I am liking the way this is playing out in my head 
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On September 28 2012 11:17 PiPoGevy wrote:
So basically, a mine which is a mine layer, acts like a creep tumor?
Thats what I got out of it haha.. Cool concept but its already in the game with crepe tumors (the spreading at least). I'd like a timer back (2 seconds on detonation) and a crazy amount of damage. The time damage ratio NEEDS to reward the better player who is paying more attention to their army movement.
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On September 30 2012 13:50 Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:17 PiPoGevy wrote:
So basically, a mine which is a mine layer, acts like a creep tumor? Thats what I got out of it haha.. Cool concept but its already in the game with crepe tumors (the spreading at least). I'd like a timer back (2 seconds on detonation) and a crazy amount of damage. The time damage ratio NEEDS to reward the better player who is paying more attention to their army movement.
I just don't understand how do you guys even come up with such ideas that unit that is burrowed and that doesn't do anything except producing Mines in a short range cone is a Creep Tumor.
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I could live with a widow mine being a mine factory that let me lay/maintain minefields. Not sure how it'd work though.
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On September 30 2012 13:37 Doominator10 wrote:
Initial impressions:
It has to be semi expensive and 2 supply. I cant imagine how it being cheap and spammable would be balanced at all.
I'm glad it does not target air. Mech i think should have some vulnerability to air units.
Why should mech be vulnerable to all air units? A huge reason why we go bio is because it is somewhat effective vs both ground and air via the Marine in all 3 matchups.
Remove that strategic flexibility and mech would need to absolutely *dominate* on the ground in order to be at least somewhat competitive with bio. I'm afraid that's where they're going with the widow mine+battle hellion right now, and I don't think that would be healthy for the game at all. Those types of hard counters are really boring to watch, and pro players will avoid them like the plague. That's why we don't see Carriers in PvT or Ghosts in TvZ.
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United Kingdom12047 Posts
On October 01 2012 01:25 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 13:37 Doominator10 wrote:
Initial impressions:
It has to be semi expensive and 2 supply. I cant imagine how it being cheap and spammable would be balanced at all.
I'm glad it does not target air. Mech i think should have some vulnerability to air units. Why should mech be vulnerable to all air units? A huge reason why we go bio is because it is somewhat effective vs both ground and air via the Marine in all 3 matchups. Remove that strategic flexibility and mech would need to absolutely *dominate* on the ground in order to be at least somewhat competitive with bio. I'm afraid that's where they're going with the widow mine+battle hellion right now, and I don't think that would be healthy for the game at all. Those types of hard counters are really boring to watch, and pro players will avoid them like the plague. That's why we don't see Carriers in PvT or Ghosts in TvZ.
I think I could live with Mech not being very good against air if it was the best option against ground, it'd make it more like Broodwar (which for me as an all matchup mech player it would be perfect). TvT for example would be much less dependant on deathballs and more dependant on map control with tanks/mines if mech was better against ground. The reason why mech vs bio TvT is so damned hard is that if you seperate your tanks badly or not with the perfect amount, you get instantly run over and it leads to deathballing.
Also mech being stronger against ground would mean you could spread out more over the map against both zerg and protoss leading to much more dynamic mech engagements than we have right now (as a meching player you basically have to ball ALL your tanks quite close as if you're spread out even a little you get run over by every other ground army).
Mech being bad against air also gives Skyterran and Airtoss a place in the game, which IMO would be a lot better as it adds more options to the other races as well as Terran late game.
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On September 28 2012 11:14 Crawdad wrote:DB's reply is even more interesting: Show nested quote +This would allow the mine layer to effectively do unlimited damage, so long as the mine layer survives. As opposed to now where the Widow Mine sacrifices itself and will only ever do so much damage before it must be replaced. Obviously a buff, but we could balance for this ability.
Interesting idea. Thanks for the post. He seems receptive.
LOL DB's bnet username is Rock and his avatar is collapsing rocks.
Interesting idea, by the way.
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On September 29 2012 21:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:On September 29 2012 19:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Basically turn widow mines into absurdly expensive spider mines. As they consume 2 food instead of 0.33 food, and more mins and gas than one vulture.
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No. Just no. What are you talking about now? The current state of the widow mine is exactly what you describe: an expensive spider mine that consumes 2 supply. The vulture was 75 minerals if I recall correctly though. Spider mines cannot hit air. Spider mines can be destroyed before detonation. Spider mines cannot be redeployed. Spider mines had terrible AI and an entire field of spider mines could be theoretically cleared by sacing a mobile low cost unit. Spider mines do less damage (120 vs. 160) but have a more powerful splash damage (120 vs 60). Spider mines ≠ widow mines.
125 damage, 0.66 supply(the most important thing for a mines imho) and 125 splash, still better than widow mines
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Just give us a firebat and the vulture...
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This would be very interested to see how it plays out, and definitely something new that would breath some life into the game.
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Wow this is an amazing idea. I'm glad d browder saw the post. I hope this gets impelmented for Terran. Would add so many dimensions to gameplay.
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EPT
