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On the idea that "To play Mech" doesn't mean only make units from the Factory: We're starting to go this direction too. Putting so much focus on mech units only hasn't really worked out well, and we think it's better to think of the race as a whole.
Huh, well than I really, really hope they'll, and the players as well, will take a closer look at how the Raven works with mech styles. I've been thinking about this and the Raven essentially works and supports classical mech-styles of play. Has stationary/positional restrictions, provides support in protection and can pack quite a punch and helps out with some very important holes in the current mech composition. (namely mass, clustered, air compositions)
(Than again, maybe my trail of thoughts may be totally wrong.)
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On September 21 2012 05:14 Fungal Growth wrote:I don't get it... Why is it that David Kim thinks it is bad for terran play to revolve around one or more mech units (like the siege tank god forbid), but it is perfectly ok for for terran play to revolve around and depend on tier 1, a-move units for early, mid and late game? The siege tank is fun and rewards strategic positioning. The marauder/marine is not fun and rewards tedious and boring build order wins and losses. Why is this so obvious that most everybody can see this except David and Dustin
this so much.
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I think David Kim is turning into Jay Wilson, which is the last thing we need.
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On September 21 2012 05:38 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 05:22 TheDraken wrote: why does david kim hate the siege tank? honestly what makes him hate the unit so goddam much? to fix mech: buff the tank.
it's that simple.
it's my fucking right to sit back in my base with 30 tanks if i want to. ain't nobody gonna stop me. Apparently blizzard thinks you shouldn't be able to because they said so. They're far too controlling about how they want the game to be played, and don't seem to want more community driven solutions to evolve. I'd hate to think how this current staff would micromanage brood war.
I know, I want to build all voidrays as protoss and blizzard just won't let me. I have to build zealots, which is terrible, because I only want units that shoot beam weapons. Blizzard is way to controling.
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On September 21 2012 06:44 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 05:14 Fungal Growth wrote:I don't get it... Why is it that David Kim thinks it is bad for terran play to revolve around one or more mech units (like the siege tank god forbid), but it is perfectly ok for for terran play to revolve around and depend on tier 1, a-move units for early, mid and late game? The siege tank is fun and rewards strategic positioning. The marauder/marine is not fun and rewards tedious and boring build order wins and losses. Why is this so obvious that most everybody can see this except David and Dustin this so much.
I have to agree. The tank was the cornerstone of BW mech play and people didn't call it wrong. And it's not just about that 1 unit, you have other units to be mobile and make it non-passive and exciting.
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For fuck's sake, somebody fire this moron.
Honestly, just do the following:
*buff tank *remove thor *add goliath *remove transformer hellion *remove widow mine *give mines to hellions
There! Now mech is viable against every race and plays the way mech should.
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On September 21 2012 06:53 Starshaped wrote: For fuck's sake, somebody fire this moron.
Honestly, just do the following:
*buff tank *remove thor *add goliath *remove transformer hellion *remove widow mine *give mines to hellions
There! Now mech is viable against every race and plays the way mech should. That would mean blizzard would have to admit their predecessors did mech much better than they could.
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You guys continue to use the term "mech" when you actually mean "positional play" - yes the SC slang term is "mech" but by perpetuating this term you have confused the community. It's clear Blizzard don't 'get' the intentions of your posts regarding mech and I strongly recommend people on teamliquid and the community at large STOP perpetuating the word for your own sakes.
Davids post makes it absoloutely clear that they actually thought the warhound was a mech unit (and it is, in the literal sense of the word!)
Just stop, sorry your word has been misinterpreted but it's doing you all NO favours Fin.
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On September 21 2012 06:53 Starshaped wrote: For fuck's sake, somebody fire this moron.
Honestly, just do the following:
*buff tank *remove thor *add goliath *remove transformer hellion *remove widow mine *give mines to hellions
There! Now mech is viable against every race and plays the way mech should.
I would be laughing so much if they tried this. It would never work, but it would be so cool to see all BW fanboys crying and trying to find excuses.
I could say that Immortals would own this alone, the same with Roaches and Marauders, but, even before that, people have to understand that SC2 doesn't rely on bad UI/AI and glitches to be balanced, so BW Mech would be fucking imbalanced (even overpowered or underpowered). The point is the things that worked on BW and that were cool won't necessarily be cool/work on SC2. The game is too different. These comparisons between direct units and mechanics are pointless.
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On September 21 2012 06:53 Starshaped wrote: For fuck's sake, somebody fire this moron.
Honestly, just do the following:
*buff tank *remove thor *add goliath *remove transformer hellion *remove widow mine *give mines to hellions
There! Now mech is viable against every race and plays the way mech should.
Thor should stay, just remove his AA and make his ability worth a shit (channeling AOE on a targeted area seems good, since it takes a while to start shooting, you just have to balance the damage and put a decent range on it and no stun) so it's role is splash damage, SLOW and being a hard hitting unit. Then add warhound again, give it some kind of anti-light AA, no splash, and upgrades to increase it's range and balance it's damage to be average. The unit didn't need to be tanky, it needed a role and thors SUCK as an anti-light solution, biohellions should be your tanky units, not amazing but rewarding for positional gameplay.
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On September 21 2012 07:06 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:53 Starshaped wrote: For fuck's sake, somebody fire this moron.
Honestly, just do the following:
*buff tank *remove thor *add goliath *remove transformer hellion *remove widow mine *give mines to hellions
There! Now mech is viable against every race and plays the way mech should. I would be laughing so much if they tried this. It would never work, but it would be so cool to see all BW fanboys crying and trying to find excuses. I could say that Immortals would own this alone, the same with Roaches and Marauders, but, even before that, people have to understand that SC2 doesn't rely on bad UI/AI and glitches to be balanced, so BW Mech would be fucking imbalanced (even overpowered or underpowered). The point is the things that worked on BW and that were cool won't necessarily be cool/work on SC2. The game is too different. These comparisons between direct units and mechanics are pointless.
1. The best and most interesting units are taken over directly from bw 2. These changes wouldn't be the only things, you'd obviously change other things to the other races etc 3. Practically half of the new units in HOTS are raped ideas from brood war. Unless you think the widow mine, the 'battle hellion (now especially since it's biological) , the viper (disruption web, consume, guttling hook), swarm host (lurker + broodlord) are new originial ideas? Cause they're not. 4. The other units, like the tempest, war hound, oracle are about the stupidest shit I've ever seen in my life.
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This just shows that Blizzard has no clear vision on Terran diversity. What's wrong with wanting to sit back and defend a very long time? Zergs are already doing this with their hive rush in WOL and Blizzard isn't addressing that. Turning Battle Hellions into biological status just shows how obsessed Blizzard is with the bio versatility, which is starting to take up roles that other tech trees should be taking.
At this rate, bio will be the only core option and factory and starport will just be producing support units.
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United Kingdom12012 Posts
On September 21 2012 07:15 Woizit wrote: This just shows that Blizzard has no clear vision on Terran diversity. What's wrong with wanting to sit back and defend a very long time? Zergs are already doing this with their hive rush in WOL and Blizzard isn't addressing that. Turning Battle Hellions into biological status just shows how obsessed Blizzard is with the bio versatility, which is starting to take up roles that other tech trees should be taking.
At this rate, bio will be the only core option and factory and starport will just be producing support units.
I think the main issue is nobody in the beta at a high level outside of Morrow is even bothering to try mech so they can't see that the tank is really bad and that buffing it would fix "THE REAL MECH STYLE - POSITIONAL PLAY" is impossible.
Either that or they refuse to make it work despite it being what everyone wants.
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I've just remembered something. I think back in the alpha phase of WoL they tried beefier firebats, which were made in factory, but could be healed by medivacs. For some reason, it wasn't put into the final build, not even into the beta I believe.
Yet, after two years of brainstorming for HotS, the best idea they could come with is basically the some old shit?
While I'm at it, the "Thor as a one super unit" was also tried during the alpha of WoL, but was considered failure. Yet they tried it again in HotS and failed - again.
Are you fucking kidding me Blizzard? Put some effort into new terran ideas, they deserve it just like protoss an zerg...
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1. All mech revolving around Siege Tanks makes Terran want to sit back and defend for a very long time. We're not sure what the correct ratio of this sort of play would be against how Terran players play now.
This makes me quite sad. If mech does not revolve around the siege tank, what will it revolve around? Certainly not the battle hellion, it was already decided the thor is not (and should not) be the core of mech. You can't revolve mech around the widow mine either.
I cannot think of any other mech unit that it could revolve around, therefore, I am genuinely confused D=. They have stated they have no replacement for the warhound as of yet, so perhaps they hope to revolve it around its future replacement? "Sigh" If they do hope to revolve mech around it, I sincerely hope it is an interesting, well designed unit.
What I am afraid of occurring is that mech becomes a slightly slower, but slightly more powerful version of bio, where tanks are nice to have in a few places, but not vital.
What I would like to occur is for blizzard to decide they want siege tanks and positional play to be the core of mech. Id like them to Design mech with the full intention of complimenting tank play, not being a substitute for them. Many people argue for a siege tank buff, many people do not want that. But it's something you could ask yourself after having this design plan to make siege tank play (Theoretically, from a design perspective) more interesting, and more viable. Perhaps the replacement for the war hound combined with the final widow mine, battle hellion, or other existing units (ie. raven) compliment the siege tank enough that no buff or only a small buff is needed. However, if they design mech haphazardly, non-elegant solutions are more likely to be employed. I for example, am very impressed with the viper, however, I can easily see it being very good against positional tank play. My hope is that they design mech well enough that things like severely nerfing abduct, or making blinding cloud not effect sieged tanks does not occur.
An elegant solution would also have to be devised to somehow make the immortal not completely hard counter mech. Whether this involves adding spells, changing stats, altering the immortal, I have no idea and I have nowhere near the skill or expertise to know the solution. But either way, I really enjoy watching positional play and hope it has a nice, skillful, and interesting place in Heart of the Swarm.
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I am afraid David Kim doesn't know what made mech interesting. Yes Terrans should be turtling with tanks and harassing with a fast units. That's one of the thing that makes mech what it is.
If you change its fundamentals too much it's not mech anymore, you can call that something else like hydrid push or whatever but it's not MECH.
Hellions are now a combination of vultures and firebats while the mines are not laid from hellions, they are built separatly. When they said they didn't want to make a copy of BW with better graphics, they are pretty much just reusing the BW gameplay but they are mixing it up so badly that we don't know what's mech and what's bio anymore. There are things that shouldn't change because they are not broken.
Combining a hammer and a screwdriver sounds really cool on paper but it's a really dumb idea and it will never work. That's Bliz trying to sell more of their... things... but being clumsy as fuck at it.
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Think part of the problem is that Blizzard thinks that we think we hate long games. This is wrong. I would much rather play one long satisfying game than three stupid rock/paper/scissors game that I won or lost becuase I hit or missed a 20 second window with my bio push.
They probably believe we are ADD Call of Duty clods who like gimmicks and 'fast-food' gameplay.
Pay close attention to to Dustin and David's language and you'll always seem them always emphasis 'exciting/fast paced' options over cerebral/stategic game play.
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it is scary how out of touch david kim is.. how can you say yoiu dont want tanks to be the main part of mech lol that is what mech is
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On September 21 2012 07:40 Fungal Growth wrote: Think part of the problem is that Blizzard thinks that we think we hate long games. This is wrong. I would much rather play one long satisfying game than three stupid rock/paper/scissors game that I won or lost becuase I hit or missed a 20 second window with my bio push.
They probably believe we are ADD Call of Duty clods who like gimmicks and 'fast-food' gameplay.
Pay close attention to to Dustin and David's language and you'll always seem them always emphasis 'exciting/fast paced' options over cerebral/stategic game play. It's like they're trying to market what they're saying rather than rationally explain why it helps the game. I don't know, seems like they see a certain crowd and want to slowly warp the gameplay to pander to it.
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Now bio has 5 units, (marine, marauder, reaper, ghost, battle hellion) and you can count medivac as one as well since it's basically a healer for bio units.
Mech has only 4.
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