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Carrier Micro - Page 12

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
Post a Reply
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Xerxes Wrath
Profile Joined September 2012
48 Posts
September 17 2012 13:00 GMT
#221
I also want interceptors healing mechanic back, they're just too fragile
Throw away those useless emotions of yours, I'll teach you how to use everything, everyone
nebula.
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Sweden1431 Posts
September 17 2012 13:10 GMT
#222
I really wish Tyler the best, he's so fucking cool and smart
I miss you July ~~~ I was in PonyTales #7 wooho!
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
September 17 2012 13:22 GMT
#223
really nice video. hope they reintroduce the new "old" carrier instead of the tempest.

keep going!
Mataza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany5364 Posts
September 17 2012 13:24 GMT
#224
On September 17 2012 20:56 Plexa wrote:
Moved to HotS to get more attention

Lolled.
In my mind it goes something like this
Tyler: "Imma write a blog"
Plexa: "No, it should be a discussion topic"
Tyler: "But I..."
Plexy "F*** you, it´s a discussion topic now"

If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
September 17 2012 13:34 GMT
#225
I'd definitely like to see how a Brood War-esque Carrier would do in HotS.

Right now, Protoss still lacks the proper air support and the tempest is meh. Carriers with their micro tricks would be much more sufficient.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
September 17 2012 13:37 GMT
#226
On September 17 2012 21:39 Don.681 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 21:16 i)awn wrote:
Great post and video Nony. I can't believe they destroyed such an amazing unit and to even think about removing it without re-introducing these mechanics. This is the kind of units we want to see in SC2. Let's start fixing things with the carrier.


In Blizzard's defense, I don't think they "destroyed" the carrier in WOL.

The thing is, most micro mechanics in BW like carrier micro, vulture micro, bad pathing, etc were accidents by the engine programmers. They were like mini bugs that made the game interesting, but they were not deliberately put in the game.

I think Blizzard has not been moving towards things like these because they have to deliberately re-program the game engine to do these changes. They coded an new engine specifically for SC2, they did not just make the old 2D engine into 3D. In a sense, its a lot like us asking Blizzard to "break" the game instead of us asking for a new feature to be put in.

So, this lack of micro is not really blizzard "destroying" a unit (unlike LAN support, now THAT was deliberate). Its more like, the programmers, especially the pathing guys were doing too much of a good job.

I think the best way to convince Blizzard to do this is for some of the Galaxy Editor experts here in TL to try and code this into the game via the Triggers. Without breaking/hacking/re-programming the engine. This should get Blizzard's attention.



Blizzard missed the mark with a lot subtleties when it came to path finding and the A.I. in the game.

Yes, it's a completely new engine.
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
September 17 2012 13:39 GMT
#227
Really well done Tayler.
Maybe you could do some more writing and showing for blizzard to see

Iam talking about other stuff from broodwar. Shoot while moving is what i have in mind, but more things also probably iam not sure as of now.
Now is the time to change the game drastically, it would Only be for the better except the balance. But the balance arrives later and in the meanwhile makes the game better.
And more FUN, more EXCITING.

Maybe its offtopic, i dont know where to write this really.
Or maybe its ontopic.

baikor
Profile Joined April 2008
Bulgaria28 Posts
September 17 2012 13:42 GMT
#228
You are a genius, sir!
valaki
Profile Joined June 2009
Hungary2476 Posts
September 17 2012 13:44 GMT
#229
I don't think blizz devs (the current ones) are even aware of these mechanics.
ggaemo fan
pNRG
Profile Joined February 2012
United States333 Posts
September 17 2012 13:53 GMT
#230
On September 17 2012 22:44 valaki wrote:
I don't think blizz devs (the current ones) are even aware of these mechanics.


This.

While Tyler explained the difference very well, I don't think the mechanics were left out or changed in SC2 as a concious effort - I just think these amazing micro moves of SC1/BW were never really a scripted game design but more of a nuance of the engine/mechanics. While I don't think these nerfs were fully intentional, it would be nice to see carriers viable and have the ability to be micro'd.
"He's like a Kakuna with Flamestrike." - Artosis 25.7.2014 \\ "Sometimes you gotta' be manly to get out of the group stage, Reynad." -Artosis 17.10.2014 \\ “There goes your dream of a frivolous lawsuit with a brewing company.” – Tasteless 26.8.2015
Wout
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands76 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 13:57:22
September 17 2012 13:56 GMT
#231
I would love to see these BW mechanics in SC2, I didn't know exactly how they worked before, thanks a lot for the video. The whole "keeping the interceptors out after a stop command" thing could even be tied into the Graviton Catapult upgrade if it's something Blizzard wants to make available after an upgrade only, with the interceptors swarming closely around the Carrier as a visual indication of combat readiness, ready to engage the opponent without being relaunched.
Zorgaz
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2951 Posts
September 17 2012 13:58 GMT
#232
Man that BW carrier micro is SO much cooler, SC2 really got the worse end of so much thanks to ''smarter ai'' T_T
Furthermore, I think the Collosi should be removed! (Zorgaz -Terran/AbrA-Random/Zorg-Dota2) Guineapigs <3
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
September 17 2012 13:58 GMT
#233
Great video, really shows everyone how it worked before (in BW).

Even until recently I recall in almost all late-game BW PvT games with carriers (in SPL/OSL and also MSL) the commentators always caught how the P player "attacked his own nexus and/or carrier" to get the interceptors ready for the incoming battle. Sounds silly without knowing how the deployment mechanics work, but makes perfect sense knowing the reason why.
[TLMS] REBOOT
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
September 17 2012 14:02 GMT
#234
On September 17 2012 22:58 OpticalShot wrote:
Great video, really shows everyone how it worked before (in BW).

Even until recently I recall in almost all late-game BW PvT games with carriers (in SPL/OSL and also MSL) the commentators always caught how the P player "attacked his own nexus and/or carrier" to get the interceptors ready for the incoming battle. Sounds silly without knowing how the deployment mechanics work, but makes perfect sense knowing the reason why.


People sometimes do that now when they go Voidrays, they'll attack rocks or own units to maintain charge.
MMA: The true King of Wings
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
September 17 2012 14:04 GMT
#235
On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.

I've been trying to explain how "taxing" mechanics can add to strategic and tactical depth. You've done it perfectly here.
YourGoodFriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2197 Posts
September 17 2012 14:15 GMT
#236
That is really insightful and good to know. Like many others here I had no idea about the carrier micro in BW
anonymous is the most famous author that anyone can be
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 14:24:38
September 17 2012 14:16 GMT
#237
On September 17 2012 21:39 Don.681 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 21:16 i)awn wrote:
Great post and video Nony. I can't believe they destroyed such an amazing unit and to even think about removing it without re-introducing these mechanics. This is the kind of units we want to see in SC2. Let's start fixing things with the carrier.


In Blizzard's defense, I don't think they "destroyed" the carrier in WOL.

The thing is, most micro mechanics in BW like carrier micro, vulture micro, bad pathing, etc were accidents by the engine programmers. They were like mini bugs that made the game interesting, but they were not deliberately put in the game.

I think Blizzard has not been moving towards things like these because they have to deliberately re-program the game engine to do these changes. They coded an new engine specifically for SC2, they did not just make the old 2D engine into 3D. In a sense, its a lot like us asking Blizzard to "break" the game instead of us asking for a new feature to be put in.

So, this lack of micro is not really blizzard "destroying" a unit (unlike LAN support, now THAT was deliberate). Its more like, the programmers, especially the pathing guys were doing too much of a good job.


That argument can be made for some other units, but it's definitely not the case with the Carrier.

The changes made to the Carrier have nothing to do with the standard unit behavior or pathing algorithms. It had to be a deliberate design choice to make Interceptors some sort of a unique pseudo-unit that doesn't have the standard unit behavior. The fact that they even introduced the upgrade to boost Interceptor launch speed is an evidence enough that they were very much aware of what they were doing.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more difficult to implement the Carrier as it is now than it was to strictly follow the "container" unit pattern.

Moreover, even though much of unit behavior in BW was accidental, the game owes much of its fame and success to these "accidents". That should be a reason enough to not only make an effort to reproduce them with as much fidelity as possible, but also to consider actively designing other/new units with similar new control tricks in mind. The latter has been notably absent from SC2 development so far, and that's much more worrisome than specific units not having the exact same behavior they did in BW.

The fault here is not with the engine and programming end, the fault is with the design philosophy that streamlines units into very rigid and specific roles, making them purely a strategic choice rather than a tool to execute strategies with.
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
September 17 2012 14:17 GMT
#238
I really hope this was sent to David Kim and DB as well. I want carrier micro in SC2!!
Trotim
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany95 Posts
September 17 2012 14:27 GMT
#239
Simple question... why does the Carrier have 2 armor in WoL when it had 4 armor in BW?
niladorus
Profile Joined September 2011
Greece116 Posts
September 17 2012 14:30 GMT
#240
I think that blizz should hear this suggestion and give it a try.I mean its beta there is no "risk" in balance.
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