It's a guide+discussion thread. Everyone can argue here, post facts and discuss with others about Vipers. I've just gave a discussion theme with some initial known facts and ideas about Vipers
Vipers - new Zerg casters, that are available from Larva on Hive, gives some new strategies and adds some dynamic into old Zerg gameplay. I want to write a small guide with listing some knowing for me facts and some ideas, how to use abilities and when it's more or less effective.
Probably nothing special or unique. Viper just consumes 200 HP from any building and getting 50 energy during 20 seconds. So it's a 2.5 energy/10 HP per second. Cause Viper's mineral cost is low (only 100 minerals), it's not really true. They're taking HP from buildings that cost minerals too, and why it's better to consume Extractor or Evolution Chamber, but never consume Spine/Spore Crawler, I'll write below. But first some stats about Zerg buildings, that costs only minerals.
Note. You can't consume buildings, that are in building process. Bronze note. You can't consume enemy Zerg buildings.
Extractor * can be built anywhere on any Vespene geyser * Fastest building time - 30 seconds * HP count - 500 (enought for 2,5 consumes) * Full cost - 75 minerals (25 + Drone) * If too far from base, you can't heal with queens. Or send queen too, but it's not effective
Evolution Chamber * can be built anywhere on creep * building time - 35seconds * HP count - 750 (enought for 3,75 consumes) * Full cost - 125 minerals (75 + Drone) * Can be healed with queens, because mostly on home base nearby queens
Hatchery * can be built anywhere * building time - 100 seconds * HP count - 1500 (enought for 7,5 consumes) * Full cost - 350 minerals (300 + Drone)
Spore Crawler * can be built only on creep * building time - 30 * HP count - 400 * Full cost - 125 (75 + drone) * can be Consumed while uprooted
Spine Crawler * can be built only on creep * building time - 50 * HP count - 300 * Full cost - 150 (100 + drone) * can be Consumed while uprooted
What to consume first?
The most efficient building in terms of cost and HP is Extractor. For 225 minerals (75*3) you can get 1500 HP, like from Hatchery. But it requires 3 drones instead one, but at same time it can be built everywhere on Geysers and very quickly - just 30 seconds.
Second candidate to Consume is Evolution Chamber - it can be consumed, it has a lot of HP - 750, and cheap too. For 250 minerals (125 * 2), including 2 drones lost, you can get exactly same amount of HP (1500), like hatchery.
The worst candidate to Consume is Spine Crawler. It's very expensive and has low amount of HP per cost. Well, I've placed above all mineral buildings in order, what to Consume first. Extractors are the best, and Spine Crawlers are the worst.
Try to consume as many buildings at time, as you can. Like one building per Viper. Because average health regeneration will be higher, than regeneration of one building.
Under term "Average regeneration" I mean summarized regeneration of 2+ buildings. Two and more Zerg buildings will regenerate slowly more HP, than one at same time. If you consume one building with many Vipers, that building will regenerate always at same speed which is slow. Try to consume more buildings at same time and you will have more regenerating buildings, more than one.
In other word, try to consume as many buildings, as many Vipers you have. Also try to consume buildings that are maxed at health, so later they will regenerate too!
Cost - 100 energy
Turns all ranged units into Melee in 2.5 radius (same as Fungal Growth)
Works vs defensive structures too, like Planetary Fortress, Spine/Spore Crawlers, Rocket Launchers and Photon cannons. Instead Melee it decreases radius of defensive buildings to 1, so those buildings still can atack units, that are very close, like Zerglings around PF.
Does not blinds Bunker
Blinding cloud does not prevents from using spells and abilities
Blinding cloud not works vs air
Blinding cloud also lowers radius of Ultralisk atack from 1 to Melee. It can be used to make them glitching more when they're trying to reach their target
Blinding cloud totally shutdowns Siege Tanks
For now, blinding cloud still works under Phase Field (Oracle's ability)
Blinding Cloud is also effective with a big number of Zerglings. They can block enemy movement and don't allow to enemy to leave Blinding Cloud. This combo with lings+cloud is also good on ramp, and adding Ultralisk burrow charge can make this scenario more deadly to enemy, because ultralisk can easily burrow charge into enemy masses on the ramp and deal a lot damage, because half of enemy units are blinded and can't atack ultralisk. Demonstration of ling+cloud+ultralisk combo you can see on 2nd video below
Blinding cloud significantly increases effectiveness of Swarm Hosts against tanks. Probably, scenario unfolds at 180 degrees. Without blinding cloud, Siege Tanks fully counter Swarm Host locust waves without any damage. But with Blinding Cloud locusts can reach Siege lines and destroy them with some waves. Well, Abduct is less effective in this scenario, but it's good too. Lets look at Abduct ability.
Cost - 75 energy
You can not Abduct Larva. Also you can't abduct units if you have unpassable terrain under viper.
Abduct can be used on your units, that opens some gameplay features like saving some units or transporting them over cliff.
Ultralisks can be Abducted too. So if someone thinks that Frenzy effect prevents from Abducting - they're wrong
Mothership and M-Core can be abducted too
If you Abduct burrowed units, they become unburrowed. Probably this is a reason, why Vipers officially considered good versus Swarm Hosts
When using Shift for multiple commands, like Abduct and then move back, here are an interesting moment. Viper starts move back during Abduct process, but Abducted unit will be pulled to a location, where Viper started to Abduct. In result, if use Shift-Abduct-move command, Viper will move away from Abducted target for a ~3-4 cells.
You can not abduct uprooted Spine/Spore crawlers
Targets for Abduct
Abduct Ultralisk over cliff. You can "transport" your units via Abduct and pull them to higher ground. It's a new Zerg answer to cliff-jumping Reapers and Colossies
Abduct enemy units to your baneling field.
Abduct enemy units closer to your Locusts to save time and allow for Locusts to kill more
Abduct your Drone and some units to island, like on Metropolis.
Abduct enemy Immortals and Sentries to kill them faster and/or eliminate mass force fields
Abduct enemy drop that is flying away
Abduct enemy drop away from your base to get some time untill your forces come to defend base against drop
Abduct enemy Vikings to kill them quickly
Abduct enemy Oracle that quickly flying away
Abduct your Queen to high/low ground to place creep tumor under Overlord. Not need for Ovie-transport upgrade!
Abduct your Drone to high/low ground to start build proxy-Spines or Hatchery. Nit much viable at Hive-tech
Abduct away enemy SCV that is building something
Abduct your overlord to save it from ground aa units
Crazy idea. Abduct your overlord with transport upgrade but without speed upgrade.
Blinding cloud looks so retardedly OP vs terran. Just fly in put it on siege tanks and continue to amove to victory. They should really go back to having it only affect bio units or something. because with that ability mech is even worse than it allready is. Imagine mech without siege tanks lol
On September 15 2012 21:29 Solarist wrote: Blinding cloud looks so retardedly OP vs terran. Just fly in put it on siege tanks and continue to amove to victory. They should really go back to having it only affect bio units or something. because with that ability mech is even worse than it allready is. Imagine mech without siege tanks lol
On September 15 2012 21:29 Solarist wrote: Blinding cloud looks so retardedly OP vs terran. Just fly in put it on siege tanks and continue to amove to victory. They should really go back to having it only affect bio units or something. because with that ability mech is even worse than it allready is. Imagine mech without siege tanks lol
Use vikings and ghosts to shutdown Vipers.
Exactly.
Also if they made the tank more powerful we could spread them against zerg again meaning binding cloud doesn't cover everything in one go.
Also if they made the tank more powerful we could spread them against zerg again meaning binding cloud doesn't cover everything in one go.
True! One blinding cloud can cover 3-4 tanks. Spread them a bit and one cloud will cover only one tank. So there will be more vipers and consumes and less standart units. Because Viper supply requirement is 3, not 2.
Whats the range on blinding cloud? From the looks of the destiny videos you'd have to send your vikings into fungal range, and we all know what that means.
On September 15 2012 21:38 Solarist wrote: Whats the range on blinding cloud? From the looks of the destiny videos you'd have to send your vikings into fungal range, and we all know what that means.
On September 15 2012 21:38 Solarist wrote: Whats the range on blinding cloud? From the looks of the destiny videos you'd have to send your vikings into fungal range, and we all know what that means.
On September 15 2012 21:38 Solarist wrote: Whats the range on blinding cloud? From the looks of the destiny videos you'd have to send your vikings into fungal range, and we all know what that means.
9 according to liquipedia.
Ah, he meant range of ability. I thought it was range of cloud itself. Yes, it's 9, same as Fungal
The viper ability is really good for the game imo It forces more micro, more focus from the players, it make it much more intersting overall. And not just for the players, but also for the crowd. It requires more skill overall from all players, evne the zerg to use it well and so on.
As u said, terran need to spread tanks. Just one example. Iam a protoss user and i will be happy fighting against the viper. If i compare it to the fungal growth ability, damn, really really boring ability to fight against.
On September 15 2012 21:29 Solarist wrote: Blinding cloud looks so retardedly OP vs terran. Just fly in put it on siege tanks and continue to amove to victory. They should really go back to having it only affect bio units or something. because with that ability mech is even worse than it allready is. Imagine mech without siege tanks lol
Use vikings and ghosts to shutdown Vipers.
Exactly.
Also if they made the tank more powerful we could spread them against zerg again meaning binding cloud doesn't cover everything in one go.
sorry, but vikings and ghosts wont prevent cloud. they kill 1-2 viper and after that remaining vipers will cloud all terran army (they're flying, so they wont be blocked) and ofc after that vipers will be killed and etc - but tanks will be under cloud and ur army will be lost
sorry, but vikings and ghosts wont prevent cloud. they kill 1-2 viper and after that remaining vipers will cloud all terran army (they're flying, so they wont be blocked) and ofc after that vipers will be killed and etc - but tanks will be under cloud and ur army will be lost
Spread tanks and only 1-2 tanks will be under clouds
I don't think it fits the unwritten naming conventions. Vipers are a family of venomous snakes actually existing on Earth, not in another galaxy, or far away from our location.
I don't think it fits the unwritten naming conventions. Vipers are a family of venomous snakes actually existing on Earth, not in another galaxy, or far away from our location.
How about Vilisk?
I don't like Vilisk or any lisk'ish names. Viper is ok for me
Vipers will be from Zerus, planet with jungles and nature, so it's a good name for them, in my opinion.
On September 15 2012 21:29 Solarist wrote: Blinding cloud looks so retardedly OP vs terran. Just fly in put it on siege tanks and continue to amove to victory. They should really go back to having it only affect bio units or something. because with that ability mech is even worse than it allready is. Imagine mech without siege tanks lol
Use vikings and ghosts to shutdown Vipers.
Exactly.
Also if they made the tank more powerful we could spread them against zerg again meaning binding cloud doesn't cover everything in one go.
sorry, but vikings and ghosts wont prevent cloud. they kill 1-2 viper and after that remaining vipers will cloud all terran army (they're flying, so they wont be blocked) and ofc after that vipers will be killed and etc - but tanks will be under cloud and ur army will be lost
What are you talking about? EMP them, first... You have the cloak, you can send few of Ghosts to the Zerg army and EMP every single caster you see in sight, and then you can attack, Vipers won't have enough time to refill energy.
On September 15 2012 21:38 Solarist wrote: Whats the range on blinding cloud? From the looks of the destiny videos you'd have to send your vikings into fungal range, and we all know what that means.
No, they won't... I know that they have Consume, but it isn't the same as Consume from BW where you instantly get 50 energy and where EMP was a waste. Blinding Cloud costs 100 energy, that means that Viper will have to use Consume on buildings 2 times to have the energy for 1 Blinding Cloud and you need 20 seconds to replenish 50 energy, while Terran can push and destroy Zerg whole army in that time. And even if they are spread, you can snipe them, and kill one Viper for 75 energy with Snipe.
On September 15 2012 21:08 Existor wrote: Probably nothing special or unique. Viper just consumes 200 HP from any building and getting 50 energy during 20 seconds. So it's a 2.5 energy/10 HP per second. Cause Viper's mineral cost is low (only 100 minerals), it's not really true. They're taking HP from buildings that cost minerals too, and why it's better to consume Extractor or Evolution Chamber, but never consume Spine/Spore Crawler, I'll write below. But first some stats about Zerg buildings, that costs only minerals.
I don't think it really makes any difference what buildings you take energy from if you just have a Queen or two for transfuse. All you're doing then is transferring energy.
So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank
On September 16 2012 20:18 Solarist wrote: So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank
And why wouldnt Terran do that? I dont see the problem really
On September 16 2012 20:18 Solarist wrote: So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank
And why wouldnt Terran do that? I dont see the problem really
Yeah seriously. And just rofl at the statement "that requires a lot of gas", of course, Vipers are completely free, right? And on top of that, are Hive tech. You have the option to counter Vipers, you don't want to do it, then just stop whining and keep losing.
I don't think it really makes any difference what buildings you take energy from if you just have a Queen or two for transfuse. All you're doing then is transferring energy.
The difference that you can lose Greater Spire, when it was consumed a bit, and then killed by drop, or lose Evolution Chamber. See difference?
So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank
Just make more vikings and ghosts, and EMP vipers and/or snipe them? Also Yamato for 100 energy allows you to oneshot some enemy units. Excluding ultras, because they have more, than 300 hp
No, they won't... I know that they have Consume, but it isn't the same as Consume from BW where you instantly get 50 energy and where EMP was a waste. Blinding Cloud costs 100 energy, that means that Viper will have to use Consume on buildings 2 times to have the energy for 1 Blinding Cloud and you need 20 seconds to replenish 50 energy, while Terran can push and destroy Zerg whole army in that time. And even if they are spread, you can snipe them, and kill one Viper for 75 energy with Snipe.
1) You're right. Thats the weakness of Vipers, that they take some time to consume. And I like the there are some weakness of those great units. It's boring to play with units that have no weak sides.
2) Snipe deals 50 damage to Psionics only. Vipers are not psionics. Well, EMP still works against vipers. But snipe can help a bit with 25 damage against heavily damaged Vipers
On September 16 2012 20:39 Existor wrote: 1) You're right. Thats the weakness of Vipers, that they take some time to consume. And I like the there are some weakness of those great units. It's boring to play with units that have no weak sides.
2) Snipe deals 50 damage to Psionics only. Vipers are not psionics. Well, EMP still works against vipers. But snipe can help a bit with 25 damage against heavily damaged Vipers
I know, I also like the Vipers too, I just say that they have counters, EMP is one of them, especially in combat where they can't use consume.
Also, I forgot completely that Vipers aren't psionic, it is strange they are spellcasters, they should be psionic units. Maybe they will add in the later stages of the game.
Blinding Cloud doesn't seem that impressive TBH. Very similar to Disruption Web except you can utilize your melee with it. Abduct seems much more attractive, and while it looks silly it adds a lot to a stalemate scenario.
Very similar to Disruption Web except you can utilize your melee with it. Abduct seems much more attractive, and while it looks silly it adds a lot to a stalemate scenario.
I don't think it really makes any difference what buildings you take energy from if you just have a Queen or two for transfuse. All you're doing then is transferring energy.
The difference that you can lose Greater Spire, when it was consumed a bit, and then killed by drop, or lose Evolution Chamber. See difference?
So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank
Just make more vikings and ghosts, and EMP vipers and/or snipe them? Also Yamato for 100 energy allows you to oneshot some enemy units. Excluding ultras, because they have more, than 300 hp
No, they won't... I know that they have Consume, but it isn't the same as Consume from BW where you instantly get 50 energy and where EMP was a waste. Blinding Cloud costs 100 energy, that means that Viper will have to use Consume on buildings 2 times to have the energy for 1 Blinding Cloud and you need 20 seconds to replenish 50 energy, while Terran can push and destroy Zerg whole army in that time. And even if they are spread, you can snipe them, and kill one Viper for 75 energy with Snipe.
1) You're right. Thats the weakness of Vipers, that they take some time to consume. And I like the there are some weakness of those great units. It's boring to play with units that have no weak sides.
2) Snipe deals 50 damage to Psionics only. Vipers are not psionics. Well, EMP still works against vipers. But snipe can help a bit with 25 damage against heavily damaged Vipers
Again, it doesn't matter what you consume if you transfuse immediately after... If Viper's are not psionic it's a bug...
Again, it doesn't matter what you consume if you transfuse immediately after... If Viper's are not psionic it's a bug...
Overseer is not psionic too.
Also, I meant that other buildings can have less HP or they're more expensive. And you will not always have transfusions. Plus to save some time you can send drones and build some extractors and it will be very cheap and have a lot of HP.
Again, it doesn't matter what you consume if you transfuse immediately after... If Viper's are not psionic it's a bug...
Overseer is not psionic too.
Also, I meant that other buildings can have less HP or they're more expensive. And you will not always have transfusions. Plus to save some time you can send drones and build some extractors and it will be very cheap and have a lot of HP.
Overseer isn't pure caster, it is an scouting unit. Viper is pure caster, same as Infestor, High Templar and Raven...
Ground units [that normally attack air] can still shoot air units while under blinding cloud, right?
Also to those talking about transfuse, while not useless, it's not necessary anything particularly great.
Queens can transfer energy over to vipers via transfusion–consume combination, but it's very inefficient (62.5%). You'll need nearly 2 queens to provide the same energy that a viper generates on it's own (4 supply. 300 minerals vs 3 supply 100m/200g)
Also, I think you'd need to have the queen(s) for at least 666 seconds before they break even cost-wise to just using drones and extractors (this is not counting the value of a larva which aren't needed for queens to be built, but are for drones. There's other complications too though such as extractor down-time making for slower consumes and/or slower gas mining)
On September 16 2012 20:47 Ramiz1989 wrote: Also, I forgot completely that Vipers aren't psionic, it is strange they are spellcasters, they should be psionic units. Maybe they will add in the later stages of the game.
Not every mana-spending spellcaster is psionic. Ravens and oracles aren't psionic. Why should zerg be the only race with a non-psionic spellcaster? The viper just kicks up dust and licks things, how is that psionic?
Again, it doesn't matter what you consume if you transfuse immediately after... If Viper's are not psionic it's a bug...
Overseer is not psionic too.
Also, I meant that other buildings can have less HP or they're more expensive. And you will not always have transfusions. Plus to save some time you can send drones and build some extractors and it will be very cheap and have a lot of HP.
Overseer isn't pure caster, it is an scouting unit. Viper is pure caster, same as Infestor, High Templar and Raven...
Ground units [that normally attack air] can still shoot air units while under blinding cloud, right?
Their weapon range under Blinding Cloud lowers to Melee, no matter, can they atack air or ground.
Queens can transfer energy over to vipers via transfusion–consume combination, but it's very inefficient (62.5%). You'll need nearly 2 queens to provide the same energy that a viper generates on it's own (4 supply. 300 minerals vs 3 supply 100m/200g)
Also, I think you'd need to have the queen(s) for at least 666 seconds before they break even cost-wise to just using drones and extractors (this is not counting the value of a larva which aren't needed for queens to be built, but are for drones. There's other complications too though such as extractor down-time making for slower consumes and/or slower gas mining)
Thats why I've decided to not look at buildings+transfuse and start with buildings, that are "cheaper" to consume, and those buildings costs only minerals and some drones. Extractor and Evolution chamber - two most effective to consume buildings, they have a lot of HP per cost. And Extractor can be build anywhere. When Evo-chamber is just fatty building with 750 hp, but only on creep. Hatchery is a more expensive compromisse between Extractor and Evo Chamber, but it gives other bonuses like another expand or big creep field around it
I don't know why is there such big talk about what building are good and bad for consume. Vipers are units that are good even if you don't have 10+ of them. You won't need that many consumes... Just do one or two from every building except greater spire and defence structures. They will have their HP back eventually. And if need for more buildings come up, just make few macro hatches. More larva and place to spend inject is always good.
On September 26 2012 10:06 JmpEax wrote: I find it interesting how zerg can convert minerals into energy with consume, and terran can convert energy into minerals with mules.
And Protoss can convert energy into more energy with Mothership Core.
Try to consume as many buildings at time, as you can. Like one building per Viper. Because average health regeneration will be higher, than regeneration of one building.
Under term "Average regeneration" I mean summarized regeneration of 2+ buildings. Two and more Zerg buildings will regenerate slowly more HP, than one at same time. If you consume one building with many Vipers, that building will regenerate always at same speed which is slow. Try to consume more buildings at same time and you will have more regenerating buildings, more than one.
In other word, try to consume as many buildings, as many Vipers you have. Also try to consume buildings that are maxed at health, so later they will regenerate too!
Also, I think if I go the evo chamber route for vipers, I'm going to start spamming them around my production buildings like Greater Spire, Infestor pit, etc.
On September 26 2012 10:06 JmpEax wrote: I find it interesting how zerg can convert minerals into energy with consume, and terran can convert energy into minerals with mules.
And Protoss can convert energy into more energy with Mothership Core.
sorry, but vikings and ghosts wont prevent cloud. they kill 1-2 viper and after that remaining vipers will cloud all terran army (they're flying, so they wont be blocked) and ofc after that vipers will be killed and etc - but tanks will be under cloud and ur army will be lost
Spread tanks and only 1-2 tanks will be under clouds
Even in the best possible scenario, where the Terran has every single Tank spread out 1.5 range away from every other one (which is so far apart in some terrain that some of the tanks won't even be in range of the fight, mind you), a single 3 supply/200 gas Viper can still negate 2x 3 supply/125 gas Tanks. That's really cost effective for the Zerg. It's hard for Mech when it isn't cost-effective. And a full Energy Viper isn't a huge deal like it would be for other casters.
Not to mention spreading 12+ Tanks while trying to be offensive at all with them just isn't possible. It isn't a matter of good micro, it's a matter of the time it takes for Tanks to move 1.5 hexes AND Siege before an army has already closed the distance.
If Blinding Cloud is OP, and I'm definitely not saying it is, I think the best solution would be to make it a range deduction spell. That way it's just as effective against all other units, but the longest range units like Tanks aren't completely negated. If the spell made all tanks 6 range, that could be a lot more reasonable.
Even in the best possible scenario, where the Terran has every single Tank spread out 1.5 range away from every other one (which is so far apart in some terrain that some of the tanks won't even be in range of the fight, mind you), a single 3 supply/200 gas Viper can still negate 2x 3 supply/125 gas Tanks. That's really cost effective for the Zerg. It's hard for Mech when it isn't cost-effective. And a full Energy Viper isn't a huge deal like it would be for other casters.
I think Vipers are overpowered personally. The ONLY thing making them even remotely balanced is the HP. Vikings and such DESTROY them, as do thors etc. And they're very fast so they clump easily if you're not careful. Plus 200 gas is quite a lot. They're basically Ravens cost wise.
Even in the best possible scenario, where the Terran has every single Tank spread out 1.5 range away from every other one (which is so far apart in some terrain that some of the tanks won't even be in range of the fight, mind you), a single 3 supply/200 gas Viper can still negate 2x 3 supply/125 gas Tanks. That's really cost effective for the Zerg. It's hard for Mech when it isn't cost-effective. And a full Energy Viper isn't a huge deal like it would be for other casters.
Even in the best possible scenario, where the Terran has every single Tank spread out 1.5 range away from every other one (which is so far apart in some terrain that some of the tanks won't even be in range of the fight, mind you), a single 3 supply/200 gas Viper can still negate 2x 3 supply/125 gas Tanks. That's really cost effective for the Zerg. It's hard for Mech when it isn't cost-effective. And a full Energy Viper isn't a huge deal like it would be for other casters.
Blinding cloud now is 2.5 range
lol even worse.
Not 2.5 range, but 2.5 radius, range i am pretty sure it is 9
coolest unit in hots and possible in the game. Great design for a spellcaster and finally a spellcaster that you don't want to mass if you go for it.
It does seem to die to vikings a bit too easily, vikings can float a bit in front of the tanks while still being safe from fungal etc. and often kill a viper before they get to do anything.
I think it would make more sense to make it just psionic and not have be light or armored. Being armored it dies too quickly to vikings and stalkers i think
I think it would make more sense to make it just psionic and not have be light or armored. Being armored it dies too quickly to vikings and stalkers i think
It can be op then. Right now protoss stalkers and terran vikings can counter it, when it can do a lot damage, like shut down your siege tanks or grab some colossies.
I think it would make more sense to make it just psionic and not have be light or armored. Being armored it dies too quickly to vikings and stalkers i think
It can be op then. Right now protoss stalkers and terran vikings can counter it, when it can do a lot damage, like shut down your siege tanks or grab some colossies.
Perhaps, a small hp buff would be good too otherwise. 5 vikings instantly kill a viper pretty much before it lands a blinding cloud on your tanks which i think is a bit too squishy. The mech ball is so strong now I feel that you can easily afford a few vikings in it, the only thing you worry about really are vipers and broodlords since the new ultralisk is still a joke. I especially hate how vikings almost completely remove the abduct option. I feel blinding cloud should be the move if you want to go at it while abduct is the neat chipping away option. With a few vikings out abduct tends to become a trade of your viper for their tank and blinding cloud a hail mary too much.
Existor, as in all your stuff you post, I must say again, excellent thread!
I was really feeling like my use of the viper was lacking, and I'd like to start incorporating them more, except I just couldn't think of how to effectively use the guys without having godlike apm, for I find I have the apm to spend on maybe one caster type, e.g. the infestor, and I'm not sure if I can justify cutting infestors in favor of vipers, though I will say both would be nice to have, but omg the apm, to fungal and blinding cloud and get a concave with the army and pullback micro and abduct micro and hell maybe even transfuse micro, all the while macroing.... :S
But this definitely gives me food for thought... However, I had some thoughts.
1) Your suggestion of using the viper to abduct your own queen to drop a tumor in their base with an olord pee is nice, though in some (or arguably most?) circumstances it may be safer for this to be done simply by putting a tumor on the ground outside their base, but in range of the highground, then olord pee inside and expand the tumor up after its cooldown. If spotted, sure it will be stopped most likely, though hopefully you won't lose the queen, unless maybe if you're poised to abduct the queen right back out of there to a "safer" low ground to flee as fast as queens could possibly hope to go... lol
And with my method, your queen can start "fleeing" long before the opponent gets any visuals inside his own base, right after placing a tumor outside on the low ground.
2) The ultra abduct into their base is also nice, though I have another suggestion, if one were to plant a nydus outside the front out of vision for a basic, non-sneaky fast-reinforcement exit, but time it as the ultras are abducted into the main, it might drive the opponent to assume the ultras came out of a nydus exit in their base and pull their army inside (away from the front), after seeing ultras inside and hearing the nydus scream, all the while you push with your actual army at the now-lesser-defended front... > This way, you can also use the vipers to maybe blinding cloud the ramp to their natural once they realize their folly and try to go back down after dealing with the ultras, hehe!
3) I reallly really like the idea of bottle necking their army and blinding could the choke, with ranged units like roaches and hydras to attack the could victims, and naturally, more units will rally into the cloud as others die, in order to try and get up to within range of your units beyond the clouded choke. Sure, this takes some clever maneuvering, but that would definitely make it worth using.
4) Furthermore, the AI attempts to move enemy units through and out of the cloud in order to get into range of your units on the other side, which will encourage their units to clump. Perhaps playing with the positioning of clouds in an arc would encourage their units to move into a tighter formation beyond the clouds, allowing you to have a better concave and possibly better utilize aoes, so perhaps if using infestors and vipers, you should get them clumped with the cloud arc, then get the "money fungal(s)" on them after clumping up... :/
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QIN0H.png)
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