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[D][G] Vipers - flying and unnerving casters - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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Tedde93
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden169 Posts
September 16 2012 10:50 GMT
#21
On September 15 2012 21:40 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2012 21:38 Solarist wrote:
Whats the range on blinding cloud? From the looks of the destiny videos you'd have to send your vikings into fungal range, and we all know what that means.

1.5, same as EMP and Storm


That is not range, it is radius.
Patiance is the element of succes"
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
September 16 2012 11:06 GMT
#22
On September 16 2012 19:28 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
Vipers won't have enough time to refill energy.

They have. Consume

No, they won't... I know that they have Consume, but it isn't the same as Consume from BW where you instantly get 50 energy and where EMP was a waste. Blinding Cloud costs 100 energy, that means that Viper will have to use Consume on buildings 2 times to have the energy for 1 Blinding Cloud and you need 20 seconds to replenish 50 energy, while Terran can push and destroy Zerg whole army in that time.
And even if they are spread, you can snipe them, and kill one Viper for 75 energy with Snipe.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
September 16 2012 11:08 GMT
#23
On September 15 2012 21:08 Existor wrote:
Probably nothing special or unique. Viper just consumes 200 HP from any building and getting 50 energy during 20 seconds. So it's a 2.5 energy/10 HP per second. Cause Viper's mineral cost is low (only 100 minerals), it's not really true. They're taking HP from buildings that cost minerals too, and why it's better to consume Extractor or Evolution Chamber, but never consume Spine/Spore Crawler, I'll write below. But first some stats about Zerg buildings, that costs only minerals.

I don't think it really makes any difference what buildings you take energy from if you just have a Queen or two for transfuse. All you're doing then is transferring energy.
Solarist
Profile Joined September 2011
291 Posts
September 16 2012 11:18 GMT
#24
So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
September 16 2012 11:21 GMT
#25
On September 16 2012 20:18 Solarist wrote:
So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank



And why wouldnt Terran do that?
I dont see the problem really
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
September 16 2012 11:27 GMT
#26
On September 16 2012 20:21 Foxxan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2012 20:18 Solarist wrote:
So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank



And why wouldnt Terran do that?
I dont see the problem really

Yeah seriously. And just rofl at the statement "that requires a lot of gas", of course, Vipers are completely free, right? And on top of that, are Hive tech. You have the option to counter Vipers, you don't want to do it, then just stop whining and keep losing.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
September 16 2012 11:39 GMT
#27
I don't think it really makes any difference what buildings you take energy from if you just have a Queen or two for transfuse. All you're doing then is transferring energy.

The difference that you can lose Greater Spire, when it was consumed a bit, and then killed by drop, or lose Evolution Chamber. See difference?

So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank

Just make more vikings and ghosts, and EMP vipers and/or snipe them? Also Yamato for 100 energy allows you to oneshot some enemy units. Excluding ultras, because they have more, than 300 hp

No, they won't... I know that they have Consume, but it isn't the same as Consume from BW where you instantly get 50 energy and where EMP was a waste. Blinding Cloud costs 100 energy, that means that Viper will have to use Consume on buildings 2 times to have the energy for 1 Blinding Cloud and you need 20 seconds to replenish 50 energy, while Terran can push and destroy Zerg whole army in that time.
And even if they are spread, you can snipe them, and kill one Viper for 75 energy with Snipe.

1) You're right. Thats the weakness of Vipers, that they take some time to consume. And I like the there are some weakness of those great units. It's boring to play with units that have no weak sides.

2) Snipe deals 50 damage to Psionics only. Vipers are not psionics. Well, EMP still works against vipers. But snipe can help a bit with 25 damage against heavily damaged Vipers
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
September 16 2012 11:47 GMT
#28
On September 16 2012 20:39 Existor wrote:
1) You're right. Thats the weakness of Vipers, that they take some time to consume. And I like the there are some weakness of those great units. It's boring to play with units that have no weak sides.

2) Snipe deals 50 damage to Psionics only. Vipers are not psionics. Well, EMP still works against vipers. But snipe can help a bit with 25 damage against heavily damaged Vipers

I know, I also like the Vipers too, I just say that they have counters, EMP is one of them, especially in combat where they can't use consume.

Also, I forgot completely that Vipers aren't psionic, it is strange they are spellcasters, they should be psionic units. Maybe they will add in the later stages of the game.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Novalisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Israel1818 Posts
September 16 2012 11:53 GMT
#29
Blinding Cloud doesn't seem that impressive TBH. Very similar to Disruption Web except you can utilize your melee with it. Abduct seems much more attractive, and while it looks silly it adds a lot to a stalemate scenario.
/commercial
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
September 16 2012 11:59 GMT
#30
Very similar to Disruption Web except you can utilize your melee with it. Abduct seems much more attractive, and while it looks silly it adds a lot to a stalemate scenario.

Both abilities are good in different scenarios.
ssregitoss
Profile Joined September 2004
Turkey241 Posts
September 16 2012 12:09 GMT
#31
i will be happy if blizzard change the energy for abduct to 100 mana.it makes key units like collos useless which costs more then a viper.
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
September 16 2012 12:12 GMT
#32
i will be happy if blizzard change the energy for abduct to 100 mana.it makes key units like collos useless which costs more then a viper.

Feedbacks works well against Vipers, also use Phase Shield more often.
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
September 16 2012 13:06 GMT
#33
On September 16 2012 20:39 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
I don't think it really makes any difference what buildings you take energy from if you just have a Queen or two for transfuse. All you're doing then is transferring energy.

The difference that you can lose Greater Spire, when it was consumed a bit, and then killed by drop, or lose Evolution Chamber. See difference?

Show nested quote +
So 9 range spell that instantly makes tanks completely useless. Same range as vikings and fungal so you're gonna have a hard time defending against them as mech. And dont start with herp derp just make ghosts. That requires ALOT of gas, so unless every map is metropolis i think blinding cloud will counter mech to hard. Unless ofc terran spreads his tanks out with 1.5 radius between every single tank

Just make more vikings and ghosts, and EMP vipers and/or snipe them? Also Yamato for 100 energy allows you to oneshot some enemy units. Excluding ultras, because they have more, than 300 hp

Show nested quote +
No, they won't... I know that they have Consume, but it isn't the same as Consume from BW where you instantly get 50 energy and where EMP was a waste. Blinding Cloud costs 100 energy, that means that Viper will have to use Consume on buildings 2 times to have the energy for 1 Blinding Cloud and you need 20 seconds to replenish 50 energy, while Terran can push and destroy Zerg whole army in that time.
And even if they are spread, you can snipe them, and kill one Viper for 75 energy with Snipe.

1) You're right. Thats the weakness of Vipers, that they take some time to consume. And I like the there are some weakness of those great units. It's boring to play with units that have no weak sides.

2) Snipe deals 50 damage to Psionics only. Vipers are not psionics. Well, EMP still works against vipers. But snipe can help a bit with 25 damage against heavily damaged Vipers


Again, it doesn't matter what you consume if you transfuse immediately after...
If Viper's are not psionic it's a bug...
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
September 16 2012 13:10 GMT
#34
Again, it doesn't matter what you consume if you transfuse immediately after...
If Viper's are not psionic it's a bug...

Overseer is not psionic too.

Also, I meant that other buildings can have less HP or they're more expensive. And you will not always have transfusions. Plus to save some time you can send drones and build some extractors and it will be very cheap and have a lot of HP.

Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-16 19:18:33
September 16 2012 19:14 GMT
#35
On September 16 2012 22:10 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
Again, it doesn't matter what you consume if you transfuse immediately after...
If Viper's are not psionic it's a bug...

Overseer is not psionic too.

Also, I meant that other buildings can have less HP or they're more expensive. And you will not always have transfusions. Plus to save some time you can send drones and build some extractors and it will be very cheap and have a lot of HP.


Overseer isn't pure caster, it is an scouting unit. Viper is pure caster, same as Infestor, High Templar and Raven...
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
September 16 2012 19:29 GMT
#36
Um...

Abduct mothership then neural it?
SC2 Mapmaker
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-16 20:35:44
September 16 2012 20:25 GMT
#37
Ground units [that normally attack air] can still shoot air units while under blinding cloud, right?

Also to those talking about transfuse, while not useless, it's not necessary anything particularly great.

Queens can transfer energy over to vipers via transfusion–consume combination, but it's very inefficient (62.5%). You'll need nearly 2 queens to provide the same energy that a viper generates on it's own (4 supply. 300 minerals vs 3 supply 100m/200g)

Also, I think you'd need to have the queen(s) for at least 666 seconds before they break even cost-wise to just using drones and extractors (this is not counting the value of a larva which aren't needed for queens to be built, but are for drones. There's other complications too though such as extractor down-time making for slower consumes and/or slower gas mining)
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
joyeaux
Profile Joined May 2005
United States169 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 14:47:16
September 17 2012 14:46 GMT
#38
On September 16 2012 20:47 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Also, I forgot completely that Vipers aren't psionic, it is strange they are spellcasters, they should be psionic units. Maybe they will add in the later stages of the game.


Not every mana-spending spellcaster is psionic. Ravens and oracles aren't psionic. Why should zerg be the only race with a non-psionic spellcaster? The viper just kicks up dust and licks things, how is that psionic?
joyeaux
Profile Joined May 2005
United States169 Posts
September 17 2012 14:51 GMT
#39
On September 17 2012 04:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2012 22:10 Existor wrote:
Again, it doesn't matter what you consume if you transfuse immediately after...
If Viper's are not psionic it's a bug...

Overseer is not psionic too.

Also, I meant that other buildings can have less HP or they're more expensive. And you will not always have transfusions. Plus to save some time you can send drones and build some extractors and it will be very cheap and have a lot of HP.


Overseer isn't pure caster, it is an scouting unit. Viper is pure caster, same as Infestor, High Templar and Raven...


Raven isn't psionic...
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
September 17 2012 15:24 GMT
#40
Ground units [that normally attack air] can still shoot air units while under blinding cloud, right?

Their weapon range under Blinding Cloud lowers to Melee, no matter, can they atack air or ground.

Queens can transfer energy over to vipers via transfusion–consume combination, but it's very inefficient (62.5%). You'll need nearly 2 queens to provide the same energy that a viper generates on it's own (4 supply. 300 minerals vs 3 supply 100m/200g)

Also, I think you'd need to have the queen(s) for at least 666 seconds before they break even cost-wise to just using drones and extractors (this is not counting the value of a larva which aren't needed for queens to be built, but are for drones. There's other complications too though such as extractor down-time making for slower consumes and/or slower gas mining)

Thats why I've decided to not look at buildings+transfuse and start with buildings, that are "cheaper" to consume, and those buildings costs only minerals and some drones. Extractor and Evolution chamber - two most effective to consume buildings, they have a lot of HP per cost. And Extractor can be build anywhere. When Evo-chamber is just fatty building with 750 hp, but only on creep. Hatchery is a more expensive compromisse between Extractor and Evo Chamber, but it gives other bonuses like another expand or big creep field around it
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