Edit: For skill-level I am an 1100 diamond zerg player, my only terran experience is from the campaign and a few 3v3 or 4v4 games.
I said I'd try it in the original Brutal No upgrade run thread, and I've now had the time to knock a few of these out.
The rules: The only units that may be trained are marines and SCVs (this includes not being allowed to summon mercenaries) No between mission armoury upgrades or research may be used Difficulty is obviously Brutal Protoss missions, only zealots are allowed to be built. This means my primary unit will be marines without stim, combat shield, or medics to heal them.
I am able to build bunkers and turrets though, so i expect to be using plenty of those... I also can use the units granted to me at the start of the mission, or as rescues throughout(this does not mean I can build more of those though)
So far I've done:
1 - Liberation Day (no VOD) 2 - The Oulaws (no VOD) 3 - Zero Hour (no VOD) 4 - Smash and Grab 5 - The Devil's Playground 6 - Welcome to the Jungle 7 - The Great Train Robbery 8 - Cutthroat 9 - The Dig 10 - Engine of Destruction 11 - Media Blitz 12 - Breakout (no VOD) 13 - Moebius Factor 14 - Piercing the Shroud (no VOD) 15 - The Evacuation 16 - Outbreak 17 - Safe Haven 18 - Supernova 19 - Maw of th Void 20 - Whispers of Doom (No VOD) 21 - A Sinister Turn 22 - Echoes of the Future 23 - In Utter Darkness 24 - Gates of Hell 25a - Shatter the Sky 25b - Belly of the Beast (No VOD)
I have gotten camtasia working adequetly and have begun uploading to youtube. It will be a bit before I get all of the one's I've done so far uploaded. I started getting huge lag spikes during the dig, so those may appear in the video too...
All In will be easy if you allow yourself to use the zerg mind control tower. Otherwise it'll be completely impossible. Maw of the Void might be impossible.
Beside the obvious All In problem, think for just one second about Maw of the Void. There's clearly no way to kill all the shield generators with just marines+dts or 1 battlecruiser.
I think Maw of the Void will be absolutely impossible. I guess the marines can't even reach the generators before dying. All in... maybe with enough planetary fortresses, yeah. The Dig has quite some Colossi in the later stages so I don't see how you can tell that it will be so easy? :D Haven's fall on the other hand doesn't sound too hard to me.
Seriously though, I'm interested in watching the vids of your successes. It sounds like a fun and interesting (though extremely frustrating) challenge.
Haven's Fall doesn't seem like it would be too bad, and if you're not going for 29/29 do Safe Haven instead and it should be really easy. I did it with pure Medic/Marine once and it was really easy, like the first three losing Medics shouldn't change much. The Nexuses were obviously trivial, and for the Purifier you just keep all your Marines clumped together and run directly up to the Mothership, run into the Vortex once it pops, then right click the Mothership afterwards. With ~100 Marines it evaporates in about 2 seconds.
I would say due to certain map mechanics like.... kill-everything-in-this-radius in Maw, your proposed marine-play will go unfinished. Colossi on The Dig will completely f you up unless you bunker up like crazy. Without being able to get any research either... you're boned. But best of luck to you in your bloody marine struggle!
Maw is going to be insanely difficult, though the DTs and starting BCs might be able to manage it somehow?
Gates of Hell should be no problem really, so many rescued units and marines work great in general for blasting through to the nydus worms.
All-in should be impossible. You won't be able to kill the nydus worms consistently and ultras should have their old stats of generic damage meaning they'll rip apart marines. You can go air but... lol hahahahaaha good luck with that. I guess if you can keep the 2-3 BCs you start with alive you have a shot, but I kinda doubt it.
What about the mobius mission (the one with Kerrigan rampaging through a city). You'll have what, 2 medivacs to complete the mission with? Seems very impractical.
Haha, I thought the Brutal NUR thread was going to be stupid hard on All-In, this takes the cake. Marines against mass Ultra? No tanks? Marines against mass Brood Lord? No Medic support? Rofl, glhf with that!
I have a plan for maw that will be fucked up if it works, otherwise I'm planning on doing it very slowly with yammato cannon from the original BC to kill detection.
The dig will be easy, but take a while. My plan is to just bunker up and snipe off all the immortals+colossus with the laser.
Gates of hell I think will be easier then i first thought, my concern was that without upgrades the marines may be torn apart and unable to get to the rescue points.
Supernova, my concern is the HTs that will rape a marine force, I'll probably end up doing this by cheesing the last base by letting the fire kill everything and then hoping to last-hit the temple.
Mobius I'm not too worried about, enough rescue troops, and I think I know a quick and dirty way to get the last base.
For All-in, I have a few different plans for fucked up strats that may work, I'm tossing between which version will be easier(less impossible), as I have cheese strats going through my head for both right now. I'll probably need to do the ground version because of broodlords though.
When(if?) I get to all-in I'll probably start streaming if it doesn't mess with fraps (total video capture noob here)
On September 23 2010 20:53 The Touch wrote: Good luck on the Ihan Crystal missions :p
Seriously though, I'm interested in watching the vids of your successes. It sounds like a fun and interesting (though extremely frustrating) challenge.
Heh, I could probably do zealot only, utter darkness would be the killer, I'd need to micro the troops given nearly perfectly...
A lot of people saying it's impossible, I think there are enough cheesy strats that I can do this.
I'm seriously not worried at all about The Dig, maybe I should be, but the laser is just such a beast at destroying things I'm not ready to take-on with my bunker wall. If I find I can't do it the normal way I'll resort to flying swarms of barracks over the enemy bases and sniping all their buildings with the laser...
On September 24 2010 04:11 Shiladie wrote: A lot of people saying it's impossible, I think there are enough cheesy strats that I can do this.
I'm seriously not worried at all about The Dig, maybe I should be, but the laser is just such a beast at destroying things I'm not ready to take-on with my bunker wall. If I find I can't do it the normal way I'll resort to flying swarms of barracks over the enemy bases and sniping all their buildings with the laser...
Remember perdition turrets work suprisingly well =)
NUR means no research, so no p-fortresses or perditions allowed :/
The problem with The Dig is that at the >30,000 health point, they send so many templars and colossi, that without stim I think they would just overrun you ><. The drill is just not fast enough to take out 10 different targets
On September 24 2010 04:11 Shiladie wrote: A lot of people saying it's impossible, I think there are enough cheesy strats that I can do this.
I'm seriously not worried at all about The Dig, maybe I should be, but the laser is just such a beast at destroying things I'm not ready to take-on with my bunker wall. If I find I can't do it the normal way I'll resort to flying swarms of barracks over the enemy bases and sniping all their buildings with the laser...
Remember perdition turrets work suprisingly well =)
Remember perdition turrets require research and are thus not part of a NUR playthrough.
On September 24 2010 04:11 Shiladie wrote: A lot of people saying it's impossible, I think there are enough cheesy strats that I can do this.
I'm seriously not worried at all about The Dig, maybe I should be, but the laser is just such a beast at destroying things I'm not ready to take-on with my bunker wall. If I find I can't do it the normal way I'll resort to flying swarms of barracks over the enemy bases and sniping all their buildings with the laser...
Remember perdition turrets work suprisingly well =)
Remember perdition turrets require research and are thus not part of a NUR playthrough.
Yea, it's interesting to see people's reaction when they realise how much of the stuff they used a tonne isn't allowed. There are a few techs I would kill to be allowed to have, like the drop pods, orbital commands, planetary fortress, etc.
It's been interesting to run around with 40-50 marines with varying levels of low hp that they can never get back...
On September 24 2010 06:43 Dental Floss wrote: If the regular NUR hasn't been done yet I don't really see a point in even trying this. Have you tried all in with NU but more than marines?
No, because I would need to get a campaign there with no upgs 1st, If I get indefinitely stuck on it with the marine restriction I'll go for doing it with simply no upgrades if it hasn't been done yet. I don't see having problems with a simple NUR all-in though...
On September 24 2010 06:43 Dental Floss wrote: If the regular NUR hasn't been done yet I don't really see a point in even trying this. Have you tried all in with NU but more than marines?
The regular NUR has been done and it's not very difficult.
I don't think this is possible, though. With enough patience you might be able to do most of the missions, but I just don't see how you can hold off all the waves while downing every nydus worm on all-in. You also might run out of money on that space mission with the big mothership at the end.
I actually tried something similar, but abit easier: Only marine medic and base recerch allowed, and made it to all in np, but there it gets kinda tricky... but not impossible. Are you gonna use the artifact in all in? i ask cus the real issue i had in that mission was the fact that kerrigan takes 2 much of your marines DPS so enemie forces have a chance to get closer to your army.
Also i think you will have a big problem in some missions. Dont forget that the biggest threat in ALL in is actually banelings combined with ultralisk to tank your DPS.
P.S: i didnt see anyone actually answer to your question about a good encoder, nice to see that as everywhere ppl like to talk about what they want, not what is asked :D. Id tell you one but dont know any 8(.
I gave engine of destruction a try, knowing it would be hard, and sloppy play meant I died on the 4th base. I didn't keep up a solid scv production to sustain the streams of dieing scvs at the front, so i didn't have the econ to keep pumping marines.
The dig got annoying, but wasn't too bad in the end, about as hard as the great train robbery. cutthroat was easy as hell.
On September 24 2010 06:43 Dental Floss wrote: If the regular NUR hasn't been done yet I don't really see a point in even trying this. Have you tried all in with NU but more than marines?
The regular NUR has been done and it's not very difficult.
I don't think this is possible, though. With enough patience you might be able to do most of the missions, but I just don't see how you can hold off all the waves while downing every nydus worm on all-in. You also might run out of money on that space mission with the big mothership at the end.
On September 24 2010 06:43 Dental Floss wrote: If the regular NUR hasn't been done yet I don't really see a point in even trying this. Have you tried all in with NU but more than marines?
The regular NUR has been done and it's not very difficult.
I don't think this is possible, though. With enough patience you might be able to do most of the missions, but I just don't see how you can hold off all the waves while downing every nydus worm on all-in. You also might run out of money on that space mission with the big mothership at the end.
Why are you linking me to a thread that you didn't read? I posted the entire strategy of how to beat it on the last page a few days ago. Don't get me wrong, you have to put in some work to win, but it's not an ultra-challenging task that beats you 999 times out of 1000. Once you get the correct strategy down, it's just a matter of timing the novas correctly and making sure to put some meat between the zerg and the artifact at the end. In fairness, I was a fairly high level iccup player in BW, so what I call "easy" might be a bit skewed. I don't think it's too difficult for any average diamond level player though.
On September 25 2010 08:25 Mastermind wrote: maw of the void will be impossible wont it??
They give you a BC that you can give yammato, and DTs, it may be enough!
uploading the great train robbery now, Cutthroat and The dig soon to follow it.
Oh missions with islands you should allow medivacs as long as you don't heal with them
I can float barracks... Also youtube rejected my latest 3 uploads due to length (you can tell how noob I am at this video stuff) so I'm gonna have to cut em up and re-upload...
On September 23 2010 23:15 ohlala wrote: why are you people doing this to yourself?
No doubt these kinds of "challenges" are due to a fear of playing the ladder. When faced with fearful challenges people can create all sorts of obstacles for themselves such as "I'll start laddering as soon as I beat the campagin with only marines". This, of course, is an impossible task and so not laddering is somehow rationalized.
On September 23 2010 23:15 ohlala wrote: why are you people doing this to yourself?
No doubt these kinds of "challenges" are due to a fear of playing the ladder. When faced with fearful challenges people can create all sorts of obstacles for themselves such as "I'll start laddering as soon as I beat the campagin with only marines". This, of course, is an impossible task and so not laddering is somehow rationalized.
So no person could clearly like playing single player (w/ or w/o handicaps)? I don't see why you are even making a reference to the multiplayer here, since it is irrelevant. Some people go straight to multiplayer, its their thing, great. Some people have little to no interest in it and instead like playing single player. They don't have to be driven by fear of laddering to want to play the campaign. These challenges are merely another difficulty rating to people who like the campaign but thought that Brutal wasn't challenging enough. Basing your argument on fear is pretty dismissive, because if that were the case, why even play Brutal if you could just beat the campaign on Casual and then proceed to multiplayer? why play the campaign at all?
On September 23 2010 23:15 ohlala wrote: why are you people doing this to yourself?
No doubt these kinds of "challenges" are due to a fear of playing the ladder. When faced with fearful challenges people can create all sorts of obstacles for themselves such as "I'll start laddering as soon as I beat the campagin with only marines". This, of course, is an impossible task and so not laddering is somehow rationalized.
I actually ladder a decent amount(read the top of the first post), but when i get tired of laddering this is a fun diversion. So really I'm doing this because god forbid, IT'S FUN. My god, somebody having fun playing starcraft that's absurd, the game is entirely made to grind ladder ratings on, everything else is just done "due to fear of playing ladder"
On September 23 2010 23:15 ohlala wrote: why are you people doing this to yourself?
No doubt these kinds of "challenges" are due to a fear of playing the ladder. When faced with fearful challenges people can create all sorts of obstacles for themselves such as "I'll start laddering as soon as I beat the campagin with only marines". This, of course, is an impossible task and so not laddering is somehow rationalized.
Engine of Destruction uploading, gotta catch up on all the new TV from the weekend (new dexter and new supernatural...) so I may not finish up media blitz tonight.
edit: finished media blitz, extremely easy also did breakout, but didn' record it, because there's no challenge there. (it's the tosh only mission)
You could try to do supernova the speedrun way. You could have your SCVs load up into your Command Centre and somehow try to fly them to the top right corner with your Banshees.
On September 30 2010 02:42 Draconicfire wrote: You could try to do supernova the speedrun way. You could have your SCVs load up into your Command Centre and somehow try to fly them to the top right corner with your Banshees.
what exactly is the speed-run way? I'd assume since you mention speed you don't mean waiting until the fire gets the temple low and then trying to last-hit it...
I will probably have buildings floating on the right side of the map while I sneak in with marines as the base is 70% destroyed by the fire...
On September 30 2010 02:42 Draconicfire wrote: You could try to do supernova the speedrun way. You could have your SCVs load up into your Command Centre and somehow try to fly them to the top right corner with your Banshees.
what exactly is the speed-run way? I'd assume since you mention speed you don't mean waiting until the fire gets the temple low and then trying to last-hit it...
I will probably have buildings floating on the right side of the map while I sneak in with marines as the base is 70% destroyed by the fire...
Pretty sure he means to sneak Banshees around the top of the map and down the right side, kill the 3-4 cannons giving vision around the temple, and then snipe it with impunity. Takes about 7 minutes. BUT normally you need to amass a good number of Banshees before doing this, since some will die on the way. Maybe you could use floating buildings to soak damage until you got there safely, and enough micro to keep at least one alive after the cannons are dead, but I think banking on the fire killing the Protoss bases is probably your best bet anyway.
This thread seemed too epic to pass up, so I just started a Brutal NUR marine only run of my own. So far I've gotten through:
Liberation Day - easy The Oulaws - easy Zero Hour - easy Smash and Grab - easy, had to use bunkers to protect vs the stone guardians though The Devil's Playground - easy The Great Train Robbery - tough, need bunkers to watch the tracks and micro to keep all the diamondbacks alive. Barely killed the last train with no army left and all resources gone. Cutthroat - easy The Dig - took some reloads, but not too bad overall The Evacuation - easy Outbreak - easy
At this point things are starting to get dicey. Although I haven't tried it yet, Engine of Destruction seems like it will be extremely difficult. How did you get through that? Like Shiladie, I also foresee problems with Supernova and Haven's Fall. I might be naive, but I think Maw will be doable as long as I can keep my starting BCs alive. Of course, I am 99% sure that All In will be impossible, but it will be fun just getting that far.
heh, good to see others giving this a try, Engine of Destruction has been the hardest that I've completed so far, by a fair margin. Trying out supernova, but my computer slows to an absolute crawl when fraps is recording, anyone know how to fix this?
worked wonders for me , allthough i didn't have the bunker upgrade so i built a engineering bay where he built the bunkers and then 2 turrets , it required some extra mining before lift off and i lost 3 banshees so i had to kill the artifact with 1 banshee, it took a while but you have ages before the wall hits you so it's not so bad
Yea, I'll be giving that method a shot. I've been lagging to hell whenever I start fraps recording SC2, even with the lowest settings, I got torn apart by the colossus in the 2nd base cause I couldn't micro... I'll reboot my whole machine and see if that helps it.
Just finished supernova, the lack of medivacs makes that trick very very difficult to try and pull off, I did a varient with a decent amount of success. Maw of the void, I did a bit of testing, and buildings DO take damage from ripfield gens, so those strats are out the window, you start with 3 BCs with yammato though, so it shouldn't be too hard to sloyly pick away at their base, as long as I can defend without too many problems...
Finished Welcome to the Jungle (hard) and Breakout (easy ofc), now I'm working my way through Supernova (impossible). I concluded that trying to cheese it with 4 banshees right at the start was impossible, and I couldn't use Pelister's trick due to lack of medivacs, so I'm doing it the hard way, inch by inch with plenty of blood and marines screaming. After much reloading, I made my way through all the bases with all my banshees still alive, but I'm stuck at the final base. The fire wall is way too close for comfort, and I can't seem to build up enough marines to take the place by storm, archons + templar eat right through me.
If I can't get it after another 5 or 10 tries, I might start over and try the SCV trick using my CC as a transport :D
I did it the first time with my CC as transport , you just need to get the barrack + factory to get all the hits or even the starport if you don't have tha cash to build additional banshees at the turret point up the corner.
just focus on 60 seconds on extra mining and use the mules aswell, so you get that fast income....hmm i just realised something, no upgrades ean no research aswell i presume so you don't have the automated refineries.
should put 2 scv's on gas for that little extra when repairing the banshees.
On October 02 2010 04:07 Pelister wrote: I did it the first time with my CC as transport , you just need to get the barrack + factory to get all the hits or even the starport if you don't have tha cash to build additional banshees at the turret point up the corner.
just focus on 60 seconds on extra mining and use the mules aswell, so you get that fast income....hmm i just realised something, no upgrades ean no research aswell i presume so you don't have the automated refineries.
should put 2 scv's on gas for that little extra when repairing the banshees.
Correct, no auto refineries, no orbital command, no additional banshees from the starport. You start off the post saying you did it first time with using CCs, but really if you have all the bonus's from tech+building banshees it's a walk in the park anyways...
Alright, got through the end of Supernova on my first try today Funny how you can try the same thing for hours, then come back with a clear head and get it right the first time.
Now I'm doing Maw, and not having as much trouble with it as I was afraid of. The first few generators were a snap, just a matter of sniping photon cannons with my yamato and cleaning up with my DTs. When there were air units guarding a place, I'd either snipe them with my battlecruisers or try to draw them back outside the warp field to my clump of marines. As for defense, missile turrets + clumps of marines do surprisingly well against carriers, since it's easier to kill interceptors than in the old SC1 days. Ground forces can easily be cleaned up with DTs.
That strategy worked well until I hit their main base, at which point I have to deal with observers and the mothership. Observers can't be killed since I don't have detection and can't build turrets in the warp field, so no more DT cheese. I've picked off a lot of buildings around the edges and there's only one generator left; however I'm running out of minerals due to constant waves of carrier attacks. Stalled for now; I'm going to take a break and try from an earlier save later.
I'd think Maw of the Void should be easy. I did the entire thing just leaving my base at the original spot and using a couple BCs and DTs. I used an orbital for scans to find Cannons though, but if you prepare ahead of time you should just know where all of these are already. You should be able to just fly in, Yamato all the cannons and observers, and fly away. Almost every Void prison and Rip Field Generator is easily accessible this way either flying on the edge or using DTs after cannons have been Yamatod. At the last one on the bottom left, some carriers could come, so you have to spend two Yamatos to take em down. Be careful not to get near the mothership as it spawns a ton of flying units. In the end, I'd bet that you should be able to suicide the BCs past the mothership and take down the objective before they die.
Yeah, it wasn't so bad once I actually went for the goal I spent all my time messing around on the edges picking stuff off that I ran out of minerals the first time, but after reloading I got through it without too much trouble.
I'm doing the protoss missions now --- is the consensus that we're supposed to only use zealots? I don't think this will be even remotely possible on Utter Darkness, so maybe I won't bother.
Dunno what the rules are for In Utter darkness , but incase no rules apply , do the DT trick where you wall off all the chokepoints and focus on killing the observers that come with each wave before they get close to that wall, keep 2 collossus on each chokepont and mass tons of air.
place masses of cannons around the base for nydus worms , and SAVE after each successfull wave.
On October 03 2010 20:26 Pelister wrote: Dunno what the rules are for In Utter darkness , but incase no rules apply , do the DT trick where you wall off all the chokepoints and focus on killing the observers that come with each wave before they get close to that wall, keep 2 collossus on each chokepont and mass tons of air.
place masses of cannons around the base for nydus worms , and SAVE after each successfull wave.
the insane micro for that map, oh god i fear for your life, leep the cellphone close for a fast 911 call for a ambulance when your brain start to melt.
On October 03 2010 20:26 Pelister wrote: Dunno what the rules are for In Utter darkness , but incase no rules apply , do the DT trick where you wall off all the chokepoints and focus on killing the observers that come with each wave before they get close to that wall, keep 2 collossus on each chokepont and mass tons of air.
place masses of cannons around the base for nydus worms , and SAVE after each successfull wave.
Rules are only zealots made, so no DT trick
You can build cannons right? Maybe you can do it just by building cannons since I don't see zealots being more useful than cannons anyway.
I think if I mass cannons and zealots with fast armour+shields upgs, and then get air upgs for the stuff they give you it MAY be possible to barely make it, but you'd need to keep every single thing they gave you alive, I forsee a lot of quicksaves and reloads when units are lost...
On October 04 2010 19:58 Shiladie wrote: I think if I mass cannons and zealots with fast armour+shields upgs, and then get air upgs for the stuff they give you it MAY be possible to barely make it, but you'd need to keep every single thing they gave you alive, I forsee a lot of quicksaves and reloads when units are lost...
I am sure you know all of this . . . but just in case:
You will need to get the gold expansion early, and I wouldn't worry about the gas. You will have plenty for upgrades.
And use pylons to block the two base entrances on the upper platform, then double or triple stack cannons. I assume you are forgetting about the archives - would seem impossible to keep those.
I think building placement and attempting to abuse and funnel the ai will be key to having a chance of winning. Kinda like a tower defence heh. gl. I dont know how you would protect the gold. I thought you would be retreating to high ground immediately.
Medics actually aren't needed for any of the missions, just bunkers and an endless supply of marines for cannon fodder. I've gotten through almost all the main missions now and I'm not at all worried about Gates of Hell or Shatter the Sky. I do think In Utter Darkness and All In will be impossible with zealots/marines only, but if Shiladie can do it I will be duly impressed.
In Utter Darkness is very timed and methodical, if you take it one fight at a time, it is less daunting. I'm gonna finish it before I move on to char though.
what Thefinalword said about building placement is spot on, I've been experimenting with what kinda walls they attack vs which they try to walk around...
On October 06 2010 20:15 Shiladie wrote: In Utter Darkness is very timed and methodical, if you take it one fight at a time, it is less daunting. I'm gonna finish it before I move on to char though.
what Thefinalword said about building placement is spot on, I've been experimenting with what kinda walls they attack vs which they try to walk around...
Very cool. I saw one Video where a guy used Gateways to block the two entrances and the gold expansion.
I would think you could take the gold and defend it once with your army - second wave attacks it I believe and then it's left alone for awhile. Get several cannons to defend it behind the gateways.
Once the next wave from the NW hits it, yiu would have to give it up. I don't know, it might not be possible to make it with your time. I would just think those minerals would help get you a lot of extra cannons and zealots.
Regarding brood lords, I would have to assume that the phoenix and void rays you get will have to take care of those quickly.
I suggested pylons as fodder because I believe the AI attacks those only after hitting other targets, plus they can be rebuilt quickly.
Anyway, you have probably already thought of all this. Good luck.
Just beat In Utter Darkness, and it wasn't even close, no reloads of saves, I got the archives, and I got 2750 kills, not just the 2500 required. Overall a LOT easier once I figured out a very basic strat...
On October 07 2010 20:42 Shiladie wrote: Just beat In Utter Darkness, and it wasn't even close, no reloads of saves, I got the archives, and I got 2750 kills, not just the 2500 required. Overall a LOT easier once I figured out a very basic strat...
It seems to be very different skills... I'm actually kind of worried about what this will do to my ladder play, because I'm getting too used to ignoring gas and ignoring tech, which is not really sustainable against a half decent player. It works against the AI because with a few exceptions, you can be confident that the computer will never try to overwhelm you with everything he's got, so you can steadily build lines of bunkers towards the goal with no fear of retaliation. That strategy simply isn't viable in multiplayer.
I will be seeing how All in with nydus is first, I may go back and do belly of the beast to try the air version later. Shatter the Sky showed just how effective marines can be vs zerg T3 if microed correctly.
Hopefully my 1000 post can be saved for a MISSION COMPLETE in the next few days!
Hmm, are you going to finish missions like Heaven's Fall, and Ghost of a Chance? I realize GoaC isn't any different from regular brutal, you are just not listing it in the OP.
All in shouldnt be impossible. Well it might be, but kerrigan won't be the problem. 20 marines kill kerrigan no problem, even when she has the storm. Marines are actually my prefered method of dealing with her. Of course I did have stim but sucks to be you I guess.
Unfortunately my 1000th post is not a report of my victory, but I figured I should come by to update on my progress.
I began working with All-In Nydus. What I found out with my initial research is upsetting. While all of the regular zerg attacks are 100% reliable and predictable, the nydus worms are not. If you save before a nydus worm wave or a kerrigan wave, see where they spawn/which direction she goes, and then reload the save, they will spawn in different locations and she can choose the different path. What this means is that my initial plan of having 10-15 marines at each nydus spawn as it happens is MUCH more difficult to pull off. I also found that nydus worms are unable to spawn where there's a building or unit (situational evidence that the worms never destroy buildings or push units out of the way when they spawn). What I now need to work out, is if a nydus is blocked by a worm, does it fail to spawn, or choose a different location? If it fails to spawn, I've found an easy and surefire way of controlling them. If they spawn in a different location instead, then it is the most difficult situation. I also believe that the nydus spawn locations are fixed, but that there are simply a relatively large number of them. This is something I will need to test by mapping out all of the nydus worm locations to the square, and see if there are consistancies game to game. In the case that they have fixed spawn locations, and fail to spawn if they are blocked, then I can block as many locations as possible, and reload my save until I get a managable number of them at once. If they simply always choose spawn locations that are not blocked, then I will need to have packs of units at as many spots as I can without spreading thin, and then reload until they spawn at those spots.
Another thing I noticed with the Nydus worms, though i will need to look again more closely to be sure of numbers, is that there are always ~3 nydus outside your base, and 1 inside, on each spawn wave.
I then gave all-in air a try, during which time I believe I have perfected my wall-ins, which will help a lot if I swap back to Nydus. No more then 1 broodlord comes from the back, and the mutas always arrive well in advance, allowing 3 turrets and 1 BC that heads down 20 seconds in advance, enough to hold the back. The mutalisk waves really thin the herd of marines each time, while not immediately noticable, it was notably harder to hit the 200/200 mark then it was in the Nydus varient. BCs are bad at killing broodlords without using yammato. My original plan was to kite in as many as I could, and then yammato the rest; this plan appears to be impossible, as even before the leviathan comes out, I am fighting waves that include 6 purple broodlords, between a kerrigan push and an orange muta wave soon after.
While over-all more controllable, the air varient simply causes far too much attrition to be sustainable, especially once the leviathan comes out.
In conclusion I believe the Nydus varient will indeed be the way to go, and success will hinge on whether I will be able to control the worms in some way, or not.
The deadliest threat I have yet to find a good response to other then using the nova, is the Hunter Killer's that come with Kerrigan. They 3 shot marines (no combat shield) and have 1 base armour (zerg stays ahead in upgs, so until lvl 3, marines do 4 damage a shot to them) and any tanks or BCs that come within range of kerrigan INSTANTLY get one-shot by her one-shotting ability. whenever I come through a kerrigan wave without using the nova it is with extreme extreme losses.
My hairbrained plan for the nydus worms, if they work like I hope, is to clear the areas around where they can spawn with the banshees so there's no creep, and then start construction on bunkers in as many spots as I can (if it requires a building, just run a marine there otherwise) and then cancel them all (salvage any I have the luxery to complete, but this is not likely) Any spots that I can't get due to other zerg present, I'll have the banshees and maybe the BCs there and ready to kill any that spawn, hopefully cutting it off before the hydra wave comes out.
TLDR I will be continueing whole haul on all-in Nydus with a new simcity since I last tried it, and a new plan for the nydus worms.
I also made it to 1100 diamond playing zerg in the ladder, though i have about 300+ bonus pool I'm still eating through, I'll have enough time to mass-game it once I beat this challenge run!
Edit: I realise some people may want to know %s 55% is the furthest I've gotten, though the combined waves on All-in Air crush me at this point. I was not keeping track of %s for nydus, as it was mostly research, no hardcore attempts yet (ballpark 40%)
If the nydus worms don't spawn where there's buildings, you could try to fill up your whole base area with supply depots (which you can lower so that they won't hinder your movement), spaced one square apart (possibly two, if it still shuts out the nydus worms), so that there's no room for the nydus worm to dig through without destroying any buildings. Alternately, you could leave a couple of areas unbuilt, so that you'll "force" the nydus worms to spawn in roughly the same place each time.
Are you allowed to open the maps in the editor to check how the triggers are? I haven't done that, so it won't be cheating if I continue to speculate
Anyway, the nydus worms might be programmed to spawn at a random point in certain regions, and if there are several regions which overlap, there might be good or bad spots to leave unbuilt, in order force a single spawn point instead of one for each area. When I played through All in, I remember having the nydus worms mostly spawn by the cliff by the artifact, so that might be a good spot to leave unbuilt, possibly being an overlap area for several areas in your base. Keep in mind, though, I only played through All in on Normal...
And if you want to save money, you could possibly fill your base with tech labs instead of supply depots, as they're cheaper...
It seems I was too quick to jump the gun on the fact that the spawns are random every load of a save, it seems there are a few things that can 'cause' a spawn to be different, but if nothing changes, it will spawn in the same location. This allows for some pre-positioning of troops at nydus worms as they spawn, but with some random elements as well.
If a worm is blocked, either by unit or building, it will simply shift where it spawns until it finds a spot to spawn within it's spawn zone. (this means if you drop a building where it will spawn, it will instead spawn right next to that building)
As far as I can tell there are 4-5 spawn zones fot the nydus worms, with I believe the number spawning in each zone being set per wave. There is at the very least a distinction between in-base and outside of base.
Over the course of a run on casual I gathered these results. While there is some varience with what I believe to be a low random chance that a designated outside worm spawns on the artifact highground these are fairly consistant: 0-50% 1 inside 2 outside 50-75% 1 inside 3 outside one wave at around 85 was 2 inside 4 outside all waves after that were 1 inside 4 outside after 95% worms continually spawn on the artifact highground until 100%
Other info I gathered: All events were 100% predictable for what artifact % they occured at, this includes all nydus waves, all kerrigan waves, and the overlord invasion. Each % takes 18 seconds of game time, totalling the nice 30 minute total game time for 100% The artifact can nova roughly every 12.5% Hydras cut apart marines if the marines are stuck behind a wall, as only a few marines can attack at a time. Zerglings cut apart marines if there is no wall Siege tanks out-range kerrigan's one-shot spell, but only by a small amount. kerrigan will not use her one-shot spell on medics mauraders marines or SCVs at 50% a wave of banelings comes Ultralisks don't come until after 75%
Is there a way for us to try the all in NUR MO without having to redo the whole campaign again? i mean like using a save game or something? I doubt it but i thought i would ask before I give this a go sometime later.
Maybe you should be testing this on Brutal with terribleterribledamage on rather than Casual, to make sure you have the timings right. Also, perhaps Bunkers would work against both Zerglings & Hydras (with a possible wall in front of the Bunkers)?
EDIT: Also, a semi-wild idea: have you considered setting up a bunker teleporter between the two sides of your base - then you could position all your marines at the entrance and 'teleport' them elsewhere if the need arises.
what if you structure your buildings in the base so that there isn't room for a nydus to spawn, build turrets, tech lab addons, ect. They need room to spawn, don't they? on the high ground where there are lots and lots of nydus worms at the end, you could just fill it all with bunkers. Make room so that your can funnel your marines back and forth though.
No idea if this will work or not, but at least you wouldn't have the worms inside your base.
what if you structure your buildings in the base so that there isn't room for a nydus to spawn, build turrets, tech lab addons, ect. They need room to spawn, don't they? on the high ground where there are lots and lots of nydus worms at the end, you could just fill it all with bunkers. Make room so that your can funnel your marines back and forth though.
No idea if this will work or not, but at least you wouldn't have the worms inside your base.
I did a test where I filled my base with bunkers and such, it shunted the worm to where my forces were on the enterences, while this is a possible strat, it took a LOT of money to do so. I still will be building my depots so they get shunted closer to my armies, but it won't be a focus of my strat.
I remembered cheat codes after the fact, I guess since I already have every achievement in there there's no harm in it, I'll probably do a run through with that once before trying for real, just to make sure it's all the same.
GL with all-in, I messed around and did most of the missions marine only with upgrades but never cared enough to really try all-in.
You can load the campaign maps in the editor and check out everything about them FYI. Get exact Nydus timings and good knowledge of their likely placement (they spawn in preset far/mid/short/in base/deep in base distances, at which point it randomly chooses one of the possible spawn locations) , wave compositions, everything.
An amusing note: never attempt to go anywhere near the enemy bases. They instantly get 6 Ultras, 30 Hydras, 20 Roaches, and 5 Banelings in addition to their already decent defense if you do so. And if I'm reading the triggers right, their defenders will come back within 16 seconds of dieing .
Brutal has more nydus spawning per wave, so generally you have to deal with 3 outside your base(pre 50%). Nydus worms inside the very short range of the artifact can be 1-shot by it, but there are a LOT of positions just slightly outside the range. Ultras come at around 35% It is possible to have a nova up for every kerrigan wave, and with a bit of micro, you can use it just after she arrives to catch the nydus waves that come right after her each time
There is a randomizer in where the nydus worms spawn, but it is based on your troop position in some way. This means if you don't move anything since a save, they will be in the same spots 100% of the time, if you start moving units you have a chance some will spawn in different locations. I originally though they simply were not spawning where lots of units were sitting, but this is incorrect, as they have spawned in the middle of a pile of units I moved there numerous times. This leads to a lot of sending troops all over the map to the possible spawn locations for that wave, and getting lucky.
On October 15 2010 23:57 Shiladie wrote: Nydus worms inside the very short range of the artifact can be 1-shot by it, but there are a LOT of positions just slightly outside the range.
Put supply depots up on top there then?
Put them on the spot that just slightly outside the range, and work your way in.
You have to build them anyway, so why not where they can defend from the Nyduses (Nydii?)
On October 15 2010 23:57 Shiladie wrote: Nydus worms inside the very short range of the artifact can be 1-shot by it, but there are a LOT of positions just slightly outside the range.
Put supply depots up on top there then?
Put them on the spot that just slightly outside the range, and work your way in.
You have to build them anyway, so why not where they can defend from the Nyduses (Nydii?)
He means outside the range of the artifact. The artifact has a range higher than the perimeter of the base.
On October 15 2010 23:57 Shiladie wrote: Nydus worms inside the very short range of the artifact can be 1-shot by it, but there are a LOT of positions just slightly outside the range.
Put supply depots up on top there then?
Put them on the spot that just slightly outside the range, and work your way in.
You have to build them anyway, so why not where they can defend from the Nyduses (Nydii?)
He means outside the range of the artifact. The artifact has a range higher than the perimeter of the base.
Oh. my bad. Regardless, I'd recommend put supply depots up there anyway, because if you're getting to the last few seconds you can wall off effectively and buy some time if the Marines are getting overwhelmed.
On October 15 2010 23:57 Shiladie wrote: There is a randomizer in where the nydus worms spawn, but it is based on your troop position in some way. This means if you don't move anything since a save, they will be in the same spots 100% of the time, if you start moving units you have a chance some will spawn in different locations. I originally though they simply were not spawning where lots of units were sitting, but this is incorrect, as they have spawned in the middle of a pile of units I moved there numerous times. This leads to a lot of sending troops all over the map to the possible spawn locations for that wave, and getting lucky.
This isn't entirely correct, actually. If you open the map in the editor, you can see that the nydus worms are actually spawned at random points one of 5 regions, chosen according to distance from base (worms spawn farther away as you increase difficulty and get farther into the level). The reason it changed if you moved units is (i think) because numbers in the RNG got used, leading to new ones for the spawn points.
Spoiler: The nydus spawns are actually very scripted; the only random aspect is the physical location, and even that is pretty constrained. For example, + Show Spoiler +
the first nydus spawn for brutal comes at exactly 4:50, and will contain one worm either by the artifact or in the areas around the starting two bunkers, 1 worm near your merc camp, one just past the barricades on the outskirts of your base, and one a fair distance outside of your base, easiest described as right before the ramp entrances to the zerg bases. The second wave will come at exactly 6:50 and will have the same parameters. The worms will also spawn in that order. Similarly, once the artifact hits 25%, it stops spawning in the artifact area and by the starting bunkers, then starts spawning in the artifact area again after the artifact hits 75%. Someone should also correct me if I read the triggers wrong.
How many more brave marines must die to your stupid bestial urges?!?!?!
In all seriousness though, no stim or shields? That's pretty ridiculous. Better get that 10rax reactor pumping out ASAP. Are you allowed to use planetary fortresses?
On October 16 2010 04:51 OfficerTJHooker wrote: How many more brave marines must die to your stupid bestial urges?!?!?!
In all seriousness though, no stim or shields? That's pretty ridiculous. Better get that 10rax reactor pumping out ASAP. Are you allowed to use planetary fortresses?
No upgrades, including PF, bunker turrets, perdition turrets, etc.
My first serious attempt got me to 79%, where a compound of lost troops meant I didn't have the forces to kill 1 of the nydus from the wave at 69%, or any from 73% This map gives you next to no downtime to rebuild anything, as you always need to be moving to be in position for the next wave of nydus worms.
Things that caused the first loss/things I'm doing differently Letting medics/marauders die by not pulling them out during kerrigan waves, as well as keeping a more watchful eye on them as a whole. 2 additional barracks positioned in the middle, serving both as more troops production and nydus blockers additional engineering bay for faster armour upgs, also positioned for nydus blocking Using a trick i found with kerrigan near the end of last attempt(I gotta keep some secrets here, or the video won't be as interesting...) Additional SCVs mining, there are 14 patches to mine from, so 28-42 SCVs on minerals at all times will be required. This as well as pulling 2 out of gas after I have started the lvl 3 upgs, leaving just enough to repair BC/banshee/tanks. Not building turrets for the overlords, marines can cover it, especially with the earlier +3 armour upg helping vs the infesteds that drop.
For people suggesting cute strategies, thank you, I do appreciate it, and if you have ideas I'd love to hear them, but a lot of the strats that you think may be great for the situation are simply too expensive both in resources and in APM to feasibly use.
Just had an idea, though I'm not sure it will work - what if you wall off with buildings but leave a small gap, and have tanks behind. It might allow you to funnel units through an artificial choke point.
On October 18 2010 23:40 Tohron wrote: Just had an idea, though I'm not sure it will work - what if you wall off with buildings but leave a small gap, and have tanks behind. It might allow you to funnel units through an artificial choke point.
I toyed with this for a while, but unfortunately at brutal level difficulty units that can't move forward to get to what's attacking them look for something in range that they can attack instead of just sitting there unable to get forward.
For some reason my lag issues have gone away completely while doing all-in, I think it was very map dependent. Right now I'm doing 60 FPS framerate locked (don't actually know how that check affects things)
For an update to my progress, I recently found the ladder to be a lot more fun again, so my play time has been split a bit more. I currently have a save game at 72% that I am happy with, (did 52-72 tonight) I'm sitting at 177 supply after dropping to 155 from the first kerrigan that does razerswarm, definitely an annoying challenge. There are 4 more waves of Nydus, and 1 more kerrigan before the endgame last 5% hits, and I've got the nova timed so I have 1 more use, and then have it up going into the endgame, as I believe it will be required then.
What I'm wondering now is when/how to transition into losing my entire fucking base. essentially when i move to the highground and let the zerg kill everything below. I'm thinking it may be after the next kerrigan wave, as she would rape my face if I were clumped on the highground at the time.
I've currently not lost any of my starting non-marine/scv units, which is why I'm confident I can pull this off, as long as I don't hit some kind of brick wall where it's impossible to kill the nydus in time.
I can barely keep up with your strat in Utter Darkness... by 800 kills i'm already having issues keeping them away from my vault
EDIT: Had some problems towards the last part until I realised the AI stops spawning anti-ground once there isn't any buildings left. That can be a problem with raking numbers cause zerglings are easy kills. I finally beat it with just a 100 to spare by trying to keep as many buildings up as possible.
I have it in my mind that you'll be floating ALOT of Rax and CC's throughout all these missions. Maw of the Void should be possible, but painstakingly slow. I think the bigger problem with Maw of the Void will actually be the lack of minerals. You'll be using SCVs to repair your BCs right? It's going to be a pain trying to snipe all those Rip Field Generators.
On October 30 2010 13:56 Conrose wrote: I have it in my mind that you'll be floating ALOT of Rax and CC's throughout all these missions. Maw of the Void should be possible, but painstakingly slow. I think the bigger problem with Maw of the Void will actually be the lack of minerals. You'll be using SCVs to repair your BCs right? It's going to be a pain trying to snipe all those Rip Field Generators.
Still, I would love to see the vids.
Shiladie has had Maw of the Void done for about a month now, video has been posted for a while, you can check it for yourself.
I have spent a LOT, of time on All-In, more then the rest of the campaign combined. My best run so far is uploading to Youtube as we speak.
I fail at 89.7%
To anyone who watches it, I am open to any tips and pointers, each spot where the F10 menu comes up I have a saved game, so if you think there are spots where something done differently would have changed things to make it possible, let me know the % that it is at and the details (my saved games are named by %, so that makes it easy to find)
The most obvious spot that will probably be pointed out is the time period around 80% 80% and onward is the period I spent the most time on, trying different variations on nova timing to where troops are located to where to use yamato. The version you see in the video is my most recent attempt and may seem a little sloppy past 82% as I didn't hunt through my vids for the most impressive looking death at 89% instead just going with the most recent.
So as I said, while I have nto given up, I have determined that it is near impossible due to 3 units:
Baneling: makes trying to repair behind a wall-in extremely difficult, future attempts will only see sucess if I can micro to kill them before they hit the wall-in
Ultralisk: at 6 armour fully upgraded marines do an astounding 3 damage a shot to them, at the 600 health they have in the campaign version, this means it takes 200 shots to take one down, late game you are faced with over 8 at a time. They also still do their full damage to marines, with their larger splash, groups of marines without combat shield die in 3 fast hits.
Hunter killer: 26 damage means they 2-shot even 3/3 marines, while their 4 armour and 180 hp makes them tanks unto themselves. They only come with kerrigan, but the 5 that do come each time essentially force a nova eery time kerrigan comes by, otherwise your losses to them are simply too high.
Another pet peeve is the nydus worms that are 'just' out of range of the nova, I used a trick of delaying kerrigan a little so that she arrives just as the nydus wave after her spawns, allowing me to clear out the hunter killers at the same time as all but a few of the nydus worms, I can pick off 1 out of range worm with my air units, but things get dicey when there are more.
Kerrigan's insta-kill is anothing annoyance, as it has a rediculous range, forcing you to move your tank way way back from the side she ends up attacking, as well as keep your air units away from her entirely. From what I can see, the moment a mehcanical unit comes within range 10 of her, it is instantly targeted and killed.
Things I realized afterwards that I will improve upon if/when i try again: removing 2 of the scvs off gas after getting the marine upgrades, I kept them there for repairs, but grossly overestimated how much those cost. Possibly moving onto the highground before the 79% kerrigan spawn, as I was unable to hold off without a nova even without her arriving. Possibly getting ground or air mech upgrades for the few units I had, though i don't know if it would be worth it...
I am confident that with the use of one of any of the following I would be able to crush it without much problem: 1) Research, mind control towers would make this easy-mode, not to mention planetary fortress, 15% faster attack speed, double scv production, faster gas (only need 2 scv on one gas to get enough) more energy on BCs, allowing for 2 yamato's each before running out of energy 2) Upgrades, combat shield + stim would make kerrigan waves a LOT nicer to deal with, as the hunter killers would 3-shot marines instead of 1-shot, and the entire thing would be over faster from stim, suped up medic healing wouldn't hurt. Double scv repair rate+self repairing buildings would be an absolute godsend, as would orbital command for extra minerals. The tanks upgrades would make my 2 tanks a rediculous amount more useful, as would the aoe upgrade for my banshees 3) Mercs, do I even need to say anything here, 4 super tanks + 4 super banshees + 1 super BC would have made this level a cakewalk in comparison to what is is now, if onyl for the extra airforce to kill worms with. The marauders would also have made the late-game ultras easier to deal with.
A thought- why not use a regular CC to have the center of the wall off? They're big, they're bulky, although they might not take aggro thinking about it, at least it might deal with the ultralisk issue. It's been awhile, but they should be pretty easy to repair.
I noticed that Kerrigan (and maybe the zerg units too) will always prioritize killing your buildings over the artifact if they are in range, unless they are already attacking the artifact. It was enough turn several 99.5-99.9% attempts into a kill for me on brutal/air in a normal run by floating all my surviving buildings to the artifact in the last 20 seconds. If you get through your current difficulties and need just a little more for a kill at the end, it might be useful.
Watched your attempt and here are my thoughts - Air weaps would probably be useful to kill of those Nydus worms quicker, particularly at the end where a number of banes were able to get out of a worm - I feel like you lost control of the mission when you had to pull the scvs to repair the wall. I know you had to so you didn't get overrun, but once you lose your income you can't macro. You might consider adding extra SCVs specifically for repair seeing as you are about 30 supply short for the 2nd half of the attempt. That way you shouldn't have to cut your income - Perhaps massing bunkers on the high ground might be useful. I feel as though once you are forced back to the highground it is all about stalling for as long as possible before you are overrun. Bunkers seem like a really good way to stall
have you tried double-layered bunkers? the back bunkers will be full of units, while the front ones only have a marine inside. kerrigan will waste her time on the front bunkers, so she'll kill the bunker, and then the lone marine inside all while taking lots of damage from the full bunkers in the back.
also, maybe you can try making a second command center early on so that you can have more mules/scvs. you'll need to replace a lot and need a lot to repair, so its good to have a lot of them just in case. and its easier to replace them when you pull them off minerals for repair.
People keep mentioning bunkers, but I believe bunkers are an extreme waste of space, while not being tanky enough to be on the front lines. Without all of the different upgrades available to bunkers through between mission upgs/research, they are really quite bad...
upgs that affect bunkers: +150 hp or auto turret +2 capacity +1 range auto-repair below 50% SCV repair twice as fast
People really dismiss the value of the research/upgs while doing a marine only run, thinking there isn't much bonus, since you arn't allowed the units that would benefit anyways. This is very very wrong, being allowed even a few choice researches/upgs would change everything up...
edit: also, no mules, that's an upgrade at the armoury to get orbitals...
On November 10 2010 19:52 vaahto wrote: I noticed that Kerrigan (and maybe the zerg units too) will always prioritize killing your buildings over the artifact if they are in range, unless they are already attacking the artifact. It was enough turn several 99.5-99.9% attempts into a kill for me on brutal/air in a normal run by floating all my surviving buildings to the artifact in the last 20 seconds. If you get through your current difficulties and need just a little more for a kill at the end, it might be useful.
haha yeah this was how i did it too
man to have done all this marine/scv only nur is insane! good luck!
On October 15 2010 11:14 Cyclon wrote: GL with all-in, I messed around and did most of the missions marine only with upgrades but never cared enough to really try all-in.
You can load the campaign maps in the editor and check out everything about them FYI. Get exact Nydus timings and good knowledge of their likely placement (they spawn in preset far/mid/short/in base/deep in base distances, at which point it randomly chooses one of the possible spawn locations) , wave compositions, everything.
An amusing note: never attempt to go anywhere near the enemy bases. They instantly get 6 Ultras, 30 Hydras, 20 Roaches, and 5 Banelings in addition to their already decent defense if you do so. And if I'm reading the triggers right, their defenders will come back within 16 seconds of dieing .
I've done this before while playing MMM Macro, and let me tell you, the number for "Zerg Kills" you see at the end is absolutely absurd after you clean out the first two bases are and start pressing into Kerrigan's camp.
Just another wild idea - maybe you could try building 1-2 extra Command Centers, then lift and drop SCVs into baneling waves while tanking some of the other units. In between baneling attacks they could make SCVs to keep your base fully saturated and repair your buildings.
On December 08 2010 00:57 Tohron wrote: Just another wild idea - maybe you could try building 1-2 extra Command Centers, then lift and drop SCVs into baneling waves while tanking some of the other units. In between baneling attacks they could make SCVs to keep your base fully saturated and repair your buildings.
On December 08 2010 00:57 Tohron wrote: Just another wild idea - maybe you could try building 1-2 extra Command Centers, then lift and drop SCVs into baneling waves while tanking some of the other units. In between baneling attacks they could make SCVs to keep your base fully saturated and repair your buildings.
Heck... Make OCs and drop Mules into Banelings.
Can't have an OC in a NUR.
It was hard enough doing this with no upgrades or tech, I can't imagine how you could do this with just marines.
I haven't got a clue if this can be made to work, but can you soak up damage by building lots of bunkers (with or without marines in them) and salvaging them just before they die? It sounds hard to do, but it would be free extra defense: it costs no supply and hardly any minerals. Free hitpoints.
Heh, I swath of new subscribers on my youtube channel caught my attention that this thread had probably been bumped. I unfortunately have not had time to continue attempts, as I am between work contracts, and thus spending most of my time looking for new work. I promise once I get a new job I'll be back at this...
On December 10 2010 13:29 Shiladie wrote: Heh, I swath of new subscribers on my youtube channel caught my attention that this thread had probably been bumped. I unfortunately have not had time to continue attempts, as I am between work contracts, and thus spending most of my time looking for new work. I promise once I get a new job I'll be back at this...
I will be looking forward to it. You inspired me to do a Mercenary only run.
On December 10 2010 13:29 Shiladie wrote: Heh, I swath of new subscribers on my youtube channel caught my attention that this thread had probably been bumped. I unfortunately have not had time to continue attempts, as I am between work contracts, and thus spending most of my time looking for new work. I promise once I get a new job I'll be back at this...
I will be looking forward to it. You inspired me to do a Mercenary only run.
Wait, what? On brutal? I don't see how that's possible.
Shiladie, don't worry, we're patient! Good luck for when you DO start trying again. =)
On December 10 2010 13:29 Shiladie wrote: Heh, I swath of new subscribers on my youtube channel caught my attention that this thread had probably been bumped. I unfortunately have not had time to continue attempts, as I am between work contracts, and thus spending most of my time looking for new work. I promise once I get a new job I'll be back at this...
I will be looking forward to it. You inspired me to do a Mercenary only run.
Wait, what? On brutal? I don't see how that's possible.
Shiladie, don't worry, we're patient! Good luck for when you DO start trying again. =)
I know someone has gotten it on hard, been to busy to go at it myself.
About doing this with Marines only though, this is a tough one.
How about this suggestion, can this mission be done vs air? One would have to use BCs alone to take care of the Broodlords, unless they get to close. Marines do pretty well vs mutas as is. The biggest problem vs air though would seem to be the Leviathan, I can not think of a practical way to take it out. Yamato, then clear the area with Nova, then go at it with 3/3 supply cap of Marines? This is just a suggestion. Perhaps mass repair a Barracks wall in front of the artifact to hold off the Broodlords, with Marines behind it to kill the Broodlings?
Does anyone have any other suggestions to do this vs air?
I was telling my friends IRL about this run and they all thought it was super awesome, and wanted to see it completed, so I just thought to throw out the vs air possibility. Perhaps this will breathe some fresh ideas into this thread.
@undyinglight: I did the thread about mercs only, I was probably the second person to complete it on hard. (I edited that thread so it now credits you for this idea). It is tricky but a lot easier than brutal NUR marines It may well be doable on brutal, the most substantial difficulty will be in the first ten or so missions.
Wrt all-in air: great, some fresh ideas. I'm sceptical though: if you don't have the hive mind emulators I think it's pretty much just harder than all-in ground.
Here's another idea. I haven't got a clue if it would work, but here goes.
Starting point is the notion that buildings bunkers may in fact not be optimal for this mission. You can only put four marines in an unupgraded bunker, which limits the maximum number of marines per surface area. This means you can deal less damage per second, giving attacking forces the time to do substantial damage.
You could consider simply not building the bunkers, but instead macroing out the largest crap ton of 3/3 upgraded marines imaginable (double eng bay). In place of a bunker with 4 marines firing, you would simply have 9 marines firing. Sure they would fall quickly, but they would kill stuff a lot faster. You also have the resources to replenish pretty quickly.
As usual in starcraft, make sure that at all stages you have the maximum possible number of marines, as having more marines will reduce the number of losses in every engagement. If you have spare time, use it to position marines closer together so that they can really do the most insane amounts of damage possible, and/or to move damaged marines to the back of the "wall". You also may need to micro a bit to deal with hydras, and, obviously, the nydus worms.
On January 24 2011 19:58 shoop wrote: @undyinglight: I did the thread about mercs only, I was probably the second person to complete it on hard. (I edited that thread so it now credits you for this idea). It is tricky but a lot easier than brutal NUR marines It may well be doable on brutal, the most substantial difficulty will be in the first ten or so missions.
Wrt all-in air: great, some fresh ideas. I'm sceptical though: if you don't have the hive mind emulators I think it's pretty much just harder than all-in ground.
Here's another idea. I haven't got a clue if it would work, but here goes.
Starting point is the notion that buildings bunkers may in fact not be optimal for this mission. You can only put four marines in an unupgraded bunker, which limits the maximum number of marines per surface area. This means you can deal less damage per second, giving attacking forces the time to do substantial damage.
You could consider simply not building the bunkers, but instead macroing out the largest crap ton of 3/3 upgraded marines imaginable (double eng bay). In place of a bunker with 4 marines firing, you would simply have 9 marines firing. Sure they would fall quickly, but they would kill stuff a lot faster. You also have the resources to replenish pretty quickly.
As usual in starcraft, make sure that at all stages you have the maximum possible number of marines, as having more marines will reduce the number of losses in every engagement. If you have spare time, use it to position marines closer together so that they can really do the most insane amounts of damage possible, and/or to move damaged marines to the back of the "wall". You also may need to micro a bit to deal with hydras, and, obviously, the nydus worms.
Could this be made to work?
Thanks for the credit man, been to busy with work and school to get far with my own concept, plus my computer is very slow so even on lowest settings any kind of screen-cap will kill my fps. Have you seen the video where Shiladie attempts all in vs worms, he actually attempts what you are suggesting behind a Barracks wall. It seems he can hold off reasonably well until the final waves spawn, there just seem to be to many units attacking his base to fend off even if he had a supply cap of 3/3 Marines. The Nova hasn't recharged from the last Kerrigan attack either. Perhaps he could somehow beat one of the Kerrigan attacks without a Nova? As Shiladie said earlier in the thread though it is the Hunter Killers that are the problem, they basically 2 hit Marines with 0.83 attack speed. Perhaps if he moved both of his Siege Tanks to the side Kerrigan was coming from and used some SCVs as cannon fodder he might possibly hold off Kerrigan without a Nova? Perhaps he could try to use his Banshees/BCs and reload if Kerrigan kills them. Those are some thoughts vs worms anyways. Any suggestions are welcome vs Worms or Air.
On January 25 2011 05:58 undyinglight wrote: Have you seen the video where Shiladie attempts all in vs worms, he actually attempts what you are suggesting behind a Barracks wall. It seems he can hold off reasonably well until the final waves spawn, there just seem to be to many units attacking his base to fend off even if he had a supply cap of 3/3 Marines. The Nova hasn't recharged from the last Kerrigan attack either. Perhaps he could somehow beat one of the Kerrigan attacks without a Nova? As Shiladie said earlier in the thread though it is the Hunter Killers that are the problem, they basically 2 hit Marines with 0.83 attack speed.
I have to admit I haven't watched it, ok so that doesn't work I'm now out of ideas.
Shiladie, you seem to have lost quite a few Marines at the 65.3% save when you fought Kerrigan. Do you think that you could attempt from there and try to save a few more Marines? It seems to do this, if it is possible you would have to attempt to have as close to 200/200 as possible and prepare your high ground defenses surrounding the artifact well ahead of time. Perhaps even remain on the low ground but build Barracks on either side of your Marines so they can't even climb the ramp to the artifact? On top of this with a Nova saved from earlier? Perhaps more SCVs mining so you can have more minerals. This may just do the trick but it is sounding like you would need impeccable micro/macro and 300 APM to pull it off. Mass repair is a must no matter where you decide to hold out.
Second Edit:
This maybe a little impractical but I am trying to give any input I can about how to accomplish this. Do you think you could possibly set up a bunker system across your base and quickly move Marines from side to side using this tactic:
It seems like much more trouble than it could possibly be worth but I figured why not throw it on the table as brainstorming is what we need right now.
Another suggestion, many strategies I see players try to move their defenses inward, however this guy had the interesting idea of moving his base outward. Although this was done on hard and not brutal perhaps his simcity can be effective in helping to destroy some of the worms as they come up, and can be a shorter retreat route back to safety for sniping off some of the far off worms. This could possibly have some promise to it.
Gl with all-in. Man that shit was hard even without any constraints lol, i always kept dying at 99%. Also you're gonna need to control your marines really well when kerrigan shows up since if you get caught in the psi storm you lose them all, i guess loads of bunkers and splitting them up is the best way. Waiting for the vods ^^!
I now have a steady job again for a while, and I have 2 nights a week on average that I can be playing SC2, I'll probably get at least a couple hours of attempts in a week now, and keep people posted with details. I might look into streaming that + my high diamond zerg laddering for the 1-2 people that may be interested
Shiladie, you seem to have lost quite a few Marines at the 65.3% save when you fought Kerrigan. Do you think that you could attempt from there and try to save a few more Marines? It seems to do this, if it is possible you would have to attempt to have as close to 200/200 as possible and prepare your high ground defenses surrounding the artifact well ahead of time. Perhaps even remain on the low ground but build Barracks on either side of your Marines so they can't even climb the ramp to the artifact? On top of this with a Nova saved from earlier? Perhaps more SCVs mining so you can have more minerals. This may just do the trick but it is sounding like you would need impeccable micro/macro and 300 APM to pull it off. Mass repair is a must no matter where you decide to hold out.
I'll give this positioning a look, I found I needed to be close enough inwards that my marines would be near enough to pull back to deal with worms in the base as well though.
Perhaps if he moved both of his Siege Tanks to the side Kerrigan was coming from and used some SCVs as cannon fodder he might possibly hold off Kerrigan without a Nova? Perhaps he could try to use his Banshees/BCs and reload if Kerrigan kills them. Those are some thoughts vs worms anyways. Any suggestions are welcome vs Worms or Air.
Kerrigan has an ability that has a range a LITTLE shorter then a tank's range that 1-shots a mechanical unit, and has about a 5-8 second cooldown. If there are any mechanical units in her range, she'll cast that and insta-kill them. On top of that high damage shots get lowered due to a hardened shield type mechanic, so marines actually are fairly good vs her.
In response to other bits I'm not gonna bother quoting: air is nearly impossible, not just due to broodlords, but because of critical mass of mutalisks, I made it to 40ish% the couple times I tried, and at that point the muta waves are big enough that if ALL your marines aren't in 1 spot firing at just mutas you get wiped out. And this is before the leviathan comes at all.
I killed the leviathan in the shatter the sky mission, but it isn't spawning broodlords/mutas constantly, and also isn't out overtop of hard to navigate no-mans-land where the marines or my base would get swarmed in the meantime anyways.
If I cannot end up doing this as stated, what do you guys think would be the 1 concession that would end up making this do-able but still as epic as possible: Allowing merc marines (this is the one I'd try first, though I don't think it would be enough on it's own, perhaps combined with the combat shield+stim upgrades?) Allowing marine upgrades (combat shield+stim) Allowing marine/medic upgrades (still not building medics Planetary fortress Drop pods
If I do end up using one of these, I won't have given up on doing it without it, just that it would be worth having done first while still doing further attempts.
Congrats on the job man. I would say that if you totally hit a wall you should start making concessions in more or less the order that you posted them, although combat shield/stim would probably be the biggest boost for you so maybe try that last?
On March 08 2011 08:47 thedirtyleg wrote: Congrats on the job man. I would say that if you totally hit a wall you should start making concessions in more or less the order that you posted them, although combat shield/stim would probably be the biggest boost for you so maybe try that last?
I think PF would be the biggest boost TBH, but I understand what you're saying. I don't know how good stim will be with the limited medic energy available though, I'd need to be very careful. It would be great for dealing with kerrigan though. Combat shields would be very very sexy though, when considering 130 or so food is in marines, that's 1300 more hp right there...
I suggest giving it a shot with War Pigs before using any other upgrades as this will not undermine the "NUR" of the thread title. If War Pigs are still not viable, attempt it with upgrades to your non marine units/buildings that way you can still say you did it with no upgrades on the Marines.
Perhaps try to position both of your tanks at the magic spot just outside of the range of her range. The tanks would be more for Hunter Killers than Kerrigan herself. I assume she won't waste her ability on SCVs? since they are mechanical. The SCVs would be to absorb the hunter-killer hits anyway.
Right now I am attempting a Single player units only brutal run before I try to do my mercs brutal run.
On March 08 2011 10:09 undyinglight wrote: I suggest giving it a shot with War Pigs before using any other upgrades as this will not undermine the "NUR" of the thread title. If War Pigs are still not viable, attempt it with upgrades to your non marine units/buildings that way you can still say you did it with no upgrades on the Marines.
Perhaps try to position both of your tanks at the magic spot just outside of the range of her range. The tanks would be more for Hunter Killers than Kerrigan herself. I assume she won't waste her ability on SCVs? since they are mechanical. The SCVs would be to absorb the hunter-killer hits anyway.
Right now I am attempting a Single player units only brutal run before I try to do my mercs brutal run.
mercs brutal should be fairly easy, unless you're going NUR
One I want to try is upgrades+research allowed, but only building SCVs. Essentially using the units I started with + PF
I don't think merc marines are worth the time: if you can do it with those, then you can also do it with regular marines. It's only 12 of them.
You could consider getting some of the bunker upgrades and use bunkers, but that would totally change all your planning.
Instead of PFs you could get perdition turrets to make it awesomer.
You could get psi disrupters.
Of all these options, I don't like marine upgrades, because they're too much like an admission of defeat. "Need to make them a bit stronger..." It's better if you get some weird and glaringly obvious advantage that is also less powerful. I like the idea of using drop pods best, but I don't know if that is enough help.
@undyinglight and shiladie: if you get ahead with these other runs you're talking about, please keep us informed at the fun constraints and mercs only threads. The mercs only brutal run should be tricky but doable, but the most difficult bit will be in the first couple of missions, and in the protoss missions where there are no mercs. Shiladie: did you see my post about the no-units run I did? Sounds very close to what you're planning, except that I didn't build scvs. You are obviously more skilled than I am - perhaps you can do a no units run on brutal, i.e. without the scvs?
Thinking about the no-unit runs, the mission that would destroy you would be engine of destruction due to the need to consistantly attack vs constant waves of troops, no time to really slow-push with PF You could do the block strat I did in this run-through, and then try and simply out-last the attacks to see if they ever stop, though that would be very ridiculous to try...
On March 08 2011 10:09 undyinglight wrote: I suggest giving it a shot with War Pigs before using any other upgrades as this will not undermine the "NUR" of the thread title. If War Pigs are still not viable, attempt it with upgrades to your non marine units/buildings that way you can still say you did it with no upgrades on the Marines.
Perhaps try to position both of your tanks at the magic spot just outside of the range of her range. The tanks would be more for Hunter Killers than Kerrigan herself. I assume she won't waste her ability on SCVs? since they are mechanical. The SCVs would be to absorb the hunter-killer hits anyway.
Right now I am attempting a Single player units only brutal run before I try to do my mercs brutal run.
mercs brutal should be fairly easy, unless you're going NUR
One I want to try is upgrades+research allowed, but only building SCVs. Essentially using the units I started with + PF
I will be using upgrades, just been to busy to play StarCraft 2 recently, so many things going on in my life. Which is a good thing that I always have alot of things going on.
On March 08 2011 10:09 undyinglight wrote: I suggest giving it a shot with War Pigs before using any other upgrades as this will not undermine the "NUR" of the thread title. If War Pigs are still not viable, attempt it with upgrades to your non marine units/buildings that way you can still say you did it with no upgrades on the Marines.
Perhaps try to position both of your tanks at the magic spot just outside of the range of her range. The tanks would be more for Hunter Killers than Kerrigan herself. I assume she won't waste her ability on SCVs? since they are mechanical. The SCVs would be to absorb the hunter-killer hits anyway.
Right now I am attempting a Single player units only brutal run before I try to do my mercs brutal run.
mercs brutal should be fairly easy, unless you're going NUR
One I want to try is upgrades+research allowed, but only building SCVs. Essentially using the units I started with + PF
I will be using upgrades, just been to busy to play StarCraft 2 recently, so many things going on in my life. Which is a good thing that I always have alot of things going on.
Yea, that's how im feeling lately, and whenever I get the drive/time to play SC2, it's all about laddering.
On April 30 2011 04:46 Chill wrote: Sorry to bump this, but you completed the entire brutal campaign this way? When I started reading this I never thought it was possible. Congrats!
I don't think he's completed all in yet, but still very impressive
Has anyone talked to him since he updated this last? Would be majorly cool to see something like this finally completed. Not to say what he's already done isn't an amazing achievement.
He posted a couple times in the trolling the campaign thread. He's just busy with other things. He said that it's his intention to finish it, but time is the restraining factor.
Wow, good to see people still care. I've been trying to get 5 1v1 ladder wins a weekday around my work schedule which has kept me busy (trying to break from top 8 diamond into masters)
I'll look into setting up a new twitchtv account, if I don't have to fraps things then it suddenly gets logistically easier, also more clips of me failing, as I didn't upload the hours and hours of that...
If I had to look back at the missions I've done, engine of destruction, the great train robbery, and maw of the void are the 3 hardest apart from all-in.
- Build an additional CC at the start and pump scvs more to saturate the minerals. - Cut down gas more, I thought I'd need more then I did for repairs. - with the additional minerals setup defences on the hill before the end - try to snipe banelings once bunkered on hill to prevent the extreme damage they did in previous attempts - micro better vs kerrigan's razor swarm
I've improved a lot (at least I think so) since i last did serious attempts, so I should be able to make SOME progress, whether it will be enough or not we'll see. I'll work out streaming and such some time before next week.
As a TL lurker, this is kinda the only thread I post in, so I care that it gets it's Cinderella ending. In any case, it's good to see you didn't abandon the project!
New stream, working on getting onto the TL sidebar and such soon. streaming will generally be between 6 and 11Pm PST mon-thurs (will probably be streaming 50-75% of those days) http://www.justin.tv/shiladie
Existor, which part are you talking about? if it's keeping stuff close to the walls in the all-in attempts, the reason i kept them back a space or so most of the time was to pull their ranged units closer in or force them to attack just the barracks.
I did Shatter the Sky just for fun. But All-In...I don't know if it's possible. I mean, damn, there's not really any good way to kill nyduses, and bunkers are so damn flimsy without any upgrades. If you at least had a planetary fortress it'd be semi-possible.
Why do people think the dig wil be hard? All you do in that mission is turtle up and use the laser on anything scary. Keep in mind the laser from that mission is given to you thus your allowed to use it.
On August 17 2011 11:29 Orcasgt24 wrote: Why do people think the dig wil be hard? All you do in that mission is turtle up and use the laser on anything scary. Keep in mind the laser from that mission is given to you thus your allowed to use it.
He's long done the dig. All-in is all that is left.
What would really get me to give this more tries would be a faster load time for saves. You end up spending 50% of your time staring at load screens because if ANYTHING goes wrong you have to reload.
after reading some of the post regarding marines and nydus timers - what about to disable nydus and fight mutas + broodlords instead? marines should be way better just defending against mutas instead of running like mad to kill the worms. if you insist on doing the both versions, nvm though
On August 19 2011 16:02 Smajdalf21 wrote: after reading some of the post regarding marines and nydus timers - what about to disable nydus and fight mutas + broodlords instead? marines should be way better just defending against mutas instead of running like mad to kill the worms. if you insist on doing the both versions, nvm though
Unupgraded no-stim marines die extremly fast to big muta flocks and broodlords
On August 19 2011 16:02 Smajdalf21 wrote: after reading some of the post regarding marines and nydus timers - what about to disable nydus and fight mutas + broodlords instead? marines should be way better just defending against mutas instead of running like mad to kill the worms. if you insist on doing the both versions, nvm though
Unupgraded no-stim marines die extremly fast to big muta flocks and broodlords
I may end up giving it a try again, the problem I ran into was once the leviathan comes out there is, as far as I can tell, NO WAY to kill it with these restrictions (edit: I killed it in shatter the sky because it had no ground support and terrain that allowed marines to get in close, also it doesn't use it's uber fungal in that mission). Without levi dead there are flocks of 4 BL + 15=20 mutas hitting the hill consistently.
On August 19 2011 16:02 Smajdalf21 wrote: after reading some of the post regarding marines and nydus timers - what about to disable nydus and fight mutas + broodlords instead? marines should be way better just defending against mutas instead of running like mad to kill the worms. if you insist on doing the both versions, nvm though
Unupgraded no-stim marines die extremly fast to big muta flocks and broodlords
I may end up giving it a try again, the problem I ran into was once the leviathan comes out there is, as far as I can tell, NO WAY to kill it with these restrictions (edit: I killed it in shatter the sky because it had no ground support and terrain that allowed marines to get in close, also it doesn't use it's uber fungal in that mission). Without levi dead there are flocks of 4 BL + 15=20 mutas hitting the hill consistently.
and i can't imagine having to stim out to nydus worms being any better
On August 19 2011 05:35 Shiladie wrote: What would really get me to give this more tries would be a faster load time for saves. You end up spending 50% of your time staring at load screens because if ANYTHING goes wrong you have to reload.
I just googled "buy cheap ssd drive" and half of the hits were titled "Why you should NOT buy cheap SSD drives". Oh, well, scrap that.
I really understand your frustration with the loading screens, though. But if you've read any Pratchett, you'll know that due to Narritivium, you're absolutely going to make it in the end. We just need to find that one strategy that has a chance of one in a million to work
On August 19 2011 16:02 Smajdalf21 wrote: after reading some of the post regarding marines and nydus timers - what about to disable nydus and fight mutas + broodlords instead? marines should be way better just defending against mutas instead of running like mad to kill the worms. if you insist on doing the both versions, nvm though
Unupgraded no-stim marines die extremly fast to big muta flocks and broodlords
I may end up giving it a try again, the problem I ran into was once the leviathan comes out there is, as far as I can tell, NO WAY to kill it with these restrictions (edit: I killed it in shatter the sky because it had no ground support and terrain that allowed marines to get in close, also it doesn't use it's uber fungal in that mission). Without levi dead there are flocks of 4 BL + 15=20 mutas hitting the hill consistently.
and i can't imagine having to stim out to nydus worms being any better
no stim
but yea I know what you mean. The key to the nydus one is having a pack of stuff already there ready to kill the worm.
On September 08 2011 09:06 Autofire2 wrote: OK I have a request: how about from now on PLEASE no one bump this thread till our hero does. Seriously, it breaks my heart
lol I feel bad whenever it gets bumped to the top and I don't have progress to show now that summer chaos is ending I should have more time to give this some more serious attempts.
God maw of the voids will be so difficult.. i wonder if somehow you could rsh to the dts and try to snipe ripfileds..... also, u need medis to expo on MOV
On September 19 2011 00:34 zlgrube wrote: God maw of the voids will be so difficult.. i wonder if somehow you could rsh to the dts and try to snipe ripfileds..... also, u need medis to expo on MOV
He has completed Maw of the Void. From what I can tell he has completed every mission save All-In.
I want you to take a moment and think about what you've done so far. You've beaten every mission up to allin without upgrades. On Brutal. Using only marines. You have done a feat which will be heralded as "omg look at this" forevermore.
You will have created a legacy. A masterpiece. A proof that no matter what, marines are enough to take down the entire swarm.
That is, if you succeed. You are at a crossroads, Shiladie. You reached 90% on All in. You were so fadoodling close.
And there were things you could've done. Your gas was at 2000 while your money was at 50. Imagine if that gas could've been minerals. That's 40 more marines, right there.
Concaves weren't as effective as they could've been. There were still minerals to be mined when you lifted your command center. More scvs could've been built. Nydus worms could've been killed faster, but you waited precious seconds to split your banshees and battlecruisers, preferring instead to take one out at a time in many cases.
It's possible Shiladie. Look into your heart and you know you can do it.
The time is now to finish it. To end the task which has taken a year. To beat the final mission, Allin.
Set aside time. Work on this. Stream it and ask for help. I believe in you shiladie.
Take heart in Braveheart. Watch this scene, or the whole movie. Get your spirit going. Play epic music while you play.
OK so I make an exception on my "please don't update till Shiladie does" request. That above post was awesome. So many of us have been waiting so long to punch the air and shout 'HE DID IT! IMMA SHOW ALL MY FRIENDS!"
Some other players are still attempting crazy campaign challenges. Interestingly enough there is some discussion in that thread about a no marine run. I am still so eager to see this be done. I honestly think that this will be the most impressive run ever done in any game once it is complete.
On November 02 2011 09:08 DoomBox wrote: Looking forward to HotS, Zerglings only NUR ^^
To be honest I don't know if Zerglings only will be viable as in some missions you might be required to use anti-air, say if a rogue Leviathan is fighting the swarm. Queens only maybe...
EPT
if you manage it though!
.
