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On June 30 2021 23:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2021 23:28 WombaT wrote:On June 30 2021 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, Lineker is speaking about the tackle that resulted in a red card in Sweden vs Ukraine. I think that was a clear red card. Swedish pundits agreed. Prolly the only ones that don't are people who grew up watching or playing English football back when Vinnie Jones was a thing.
I also agree with mahrgell on England. They might not have been dazzling, but they've been convincing. While there are many teams I support to varying degrees, England is the one I support the most this EC, and I'm totally pleased with their performance so far. Sure - I'd like to see more flashy players than Rice and Phillips, but they seem really balanced. Ah. That looked very much a red to me, but in general accidents happen and not everything that causes injury is a foul. And vice versa, something isn’t not a terrible foul just because a bloke’s leg isn’t broken. I agree with this - and I think the 'attacker's punishment should match the length of injury' suggestions are pretty dumb for just this reason. People can get injured from tackles that weren't horrendous, and someone like Danilo can get his neck broken but keep playing. One of the key determiners is, and should be, whether the leg is straight or not. A slightly bent knee and suddenly the tackling player ends up absorbing a lot of the impact, while a straight leg leaves the victim of the tackle absorbing the entirety of it. People can still survive straight legged tackles - but the probability of an injury increases to the point where I think a straight red will usually be justified.
As much sense as that makes it does seem rather difficult to implement in practice. You would need VAR to check pretty much everything. They kinda have to make the rules more general and apply them as such in order for the refs to stand a chance. I really don't see the problem with the "anything with the bottom of the foot above the ankle is a red" rule. It seems the occasions of it being applied inappropriately are very rare. And players will learn to adjust to these things - if you know certain tackles have a risk of getting you sent off you'll learn to not use them. (but some players won't and will then be sent off more frequently, which is great for the general safety of players)
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On June 30 2021 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, Lineker is speaking about the tackle that resulted in a red card in Sweden vs Ukraine. I think that was a clear red card. Swedish pundits agreed. Prolly the only ones that don't are people who grew up watching or playing English football back when Vinnie Jones was a thing.
I also agree with mahrgell on England. They might not have been dazzling, but they've been convincing. While there are many teams I support to varying degrees, England is the one I support the most this EC, and I'm totally pleased with their performance so far. Sure - I'd like to see more flashy players than Rice and Phillips, but they seem really balanced.
Not just the old players tho, on Dutch TV vd Vaart (who I don't consider an old player as he didn't retire that long ago) was arguing about it not being a red card either. He feels the player went 100% for the ball and didn't even see the other guy, so there was no intent. Personally I thought it was a red card. When you go for a ball like that you do risk injuring another player and not in some freak accident kinda way, but just because of what we've seen happen.
Other than that, I support Italy, despite their bad showing in the 1/8 finals, I hope they manage to find their good form and play some good football. Not a big fan of the English team in general, just not very many likeable players in my opinion. I think they have a good shot at the final victory though.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 01 2021 00:59 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2021 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, Lineker is speaking about the tackle that resulted in a red card in Sweden vs Ukraine. I think that was a clear red card. Swedish pundits agreed. Prolly the only ones that don't are people who grew up watching or playing English football back when Vinnie Jones was a thing.
I also agree with mahrgell on England. They might not have been dazzling, but they've been convincing. While there are many teams I support to varying degrees, England is the one I support the most this EC, and I'm totally pleased with their performance so far. Sure - I'd like to see more flashy players than Rice and Phillips, but they seem really balanced. Not just the old players tho, on Dutch TV vd Vaart (who I don't consider an old player as he didn't retire that long ago) was arguing about it not being a red card either. He feels the player went 100% for the ball and didn't even see the other guy, so there was no intent. Personally I thought it was a red card. When you go for a ball like that you do risk injuring another player and not in some freak accident kinda way, but just because of what we've seen happen. Other than that, I support Italy, despite their bad showing in the 1/8 finals, I hope they manage to find their good form and play some good football. Not a big fan of the English team in general, just not very many likeable players in my opinion. I think they have a good shot at the final victory though.
They changed the rules, not sure when, but all these "professionals" don't follow the changes.
It's the same as if you would ask retired doctor of medicine for a help and they would recommend you a procedure which was replaced 10 years ago because it was too dangerous. The sad thing is that red card was never foggy like a handball.
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As a child to teenager, I played football, day in day out. Although I wasn't good enough to be a professional, I had aspirations playing at amateur level (school, district, college).
When I was 16, I played in friendly game. I was a right winger. A long ball hoofed forward towards my team's half. I positioned myself between the running attacker, to let the ball trickle out of play. Routine stuff. The player suddenly lunged into a desperate tackle from behind to win the ball. He clattered me instead. The ball still went out.
I was out for 9 months. And I was never the same player again. I struggled to regain my pace and fitness (and other players just got better during my absence). Worst still, the injury was recurring, so I had to play more cautiously than before. I can't fight for 50-50 balls anymore. I had to reinvent my playstyle, playing as right-back or defensive midfielder.
I've played with peers from England and Spain. English players tend to be reckless and rough. Spanish players are so much more technically better - they can rob the ball off you cleanly with the barest of physical contact (as we have seen in this Euro). Sometimes, the trick is not even to make any tackle. Just press the player, cut off his passing angle, and force him to make a mistake (over-hitting a dribble or a pass). Point is, winning the ball is a skill itself that should be rewarded. When dangerous tackles don't get punished, it just dilutes the quality of the game (any skill-less idiot can body check and make sliding tackles), and above all, put players at risk of life-changing injuries.
My personal anecdotal experience may not count for much. But believe me, a lot of my friends suffer the same injury problems, to different degrees. If you've never played competitive football before, I guess it's hard to appreciate the difference between a good tackle and bad tackle.
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On July 01 2021 00:59 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2021 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, Lineker is speaking about the tackle that resulted in a red card in Sweden vs Ukraine. I think that was a clear red card. Swedish pundits agreed. Prolly the only ones that don't are people who grew up watching or playing English football back when Vinnie Jones was a thing.
I also agree with mahrgell on England. They might not have been dazzling, but they've been convincing. While there are many teams I support to varying degrees, England is the one I support the most this EC, and I'm totally pleased with their performance so far. Sure - I'd like to see more flashy players than Rice and Phillips, but they seem really balanced. Not just the old players tho, on Dutch TV vd Vaart (who I don't consider an old player as he didn't retire that long ago) was arguing about it not being a red card either. He feels the player went 100% for the ball and didn't even see the other guy, so there was no intent. Personally I thought it was a red card. When you go for a ball like that you do risk injuring another player and not in some freak accident kinda way, but just because of what we've seen happen. Other than that, I support Italy, despite their bad showing in the 1/8 finals, I hope they manage to find their good form and play some good football. Not a big fan of the English team in general, just not very many likeable players in my opinion. I think they have a good shot at the final victory though.
This just show how bad a professional Vd Vaart was. Especially in the end of his karriere. Not knowing rules aa professional and even worse TV expert is disgraceful.
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On July 01 2021 01:25 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2021 00:59 Kaolla wrote:On June 30 2021 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, Lineker is speaking about the tackle that resulted in a red card in Sweden vs Ukraine. I think that was a clear red card. Swedish pundits agreed. Prolly the only ones that don't are people who grew up watching or playing English football back when Vinnie Jones was a thing.
I also agree with mahrgell on England. They might not have been dazzling, but they've been convincing. While there are many teams I support to varying degrees, England is the one I support the most this EC, and I'm totally pleased with their performance so far. Sure - I'd like to see more flashy players than Rice and Phillips, but they seem really balanced. Not just the old players tho, on Dutch TV vd Vaart (who I don't consider an old player as he didn't retire that long ago) was arguing about it not being a red card either. He feels the player went 100% for the ball and didn't even see the other guy, so there was no intent. Personally I thought it was a red card. When you go for a ball like that you do risk injuring another player and not in some freak accident kinda way, but just because of what we've seen happen. Other than that, I support Italy, despite their bad showing in the 1/8 finals, I hope they manage to find their good form and play some good football. Not a big fan of the English team in general, just not very many likeable players in my opinion. I think they have a good shot at the final victory though. This just show how bad a professional Vd Vaart was. Especially in the end of his karriere. Not knowing rules aa professional and even worse TV expert is disgraceful.
I'm sure he would also reckon de Jong kung-fu kicking Xabi Alonso in WC2010 Final vs Spain as legit 100% going for the ball 
Edit: Oh yeah, VDV actually played in that game as sub
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 01 2021 01:18 RKC wrote:
As a child to teenager, I played football, day in day out. Although I wasn't good enough to be a professional, I had aspirations playing at amateur level (school, district, college).
When I was 16, I played in friendly game. I was a right winger. A long ball hoofed forward towards my team's half. I positioned myself between the running attacker, to let the ball trickle out of play. Routine stuff. The player suddenly lunged into a desperate tackle from behind to win the ball. He clattered me instead. The ball still went out.
I was out for 9 months. And I was never the same player again. I struggled to regain my pace and fitness (and other players just got better during my absence). Worst still, the injury was recurring, so I had to play more cautiously than before. I can't fight for 50-50 balls anymore. I had to reinvent my playstyle, playing as right-back or defensive midfielder.
I've played with peers from England and Spain. English players tend to be reckless and rough. Spanish players are so much more technically better - they can rob the ball off you cleanly with the barest of physical contact (as we have seen in this Euro). Sometimes, the trick is not even to make any tackle. Just press the player, cut off his passing angle, and force him to make a mistake (over-hitting a dribble or a pass). Point is, winning the ball is a skill itself that should be rewarded. When dangerous tackles don't get punished, it just dilutes the quality of the game (any skill-less idiot can body check and make sliding tackles), and above all, put players at risk of life-changing injuries.
My personal anecdotal experience may not count for much. But believe me, a lot of my friends suffer the same injury problems, to different degrees. If you've never played competitive football before, I guess it's hard to appreciate the difference between a good tackle and bad tackle.
One of my first memories of an adult football was an incident with an open broken leg injury. Good thing is that I wasn't able to realize how bad it was because I was just 5 years old. What a memory to have! I really don't get why people are defending ruthless play. If they wanna see more tackles - there's rugby, american football, ice hockey. If they wanna see more blood - there's plenty of sports for that as well. If they wanna see plenty of leg injuries, there are places on the interwebz with blood & gore.
And I really get that the players don't want to hurt each other but these kind of tackles can do that. Protecting health makes the game better, not worse.
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Sky Sports and the Athletic are both reporting that Patrick Viera will soon be announced the the new Crystal Palace manager.
Oh wut I'm a high templar now. Man I'd been DT for like 8 years, not sure how I feel about this
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On July 01 2021 01:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2021 01:18 RKC wrote:
As a child to teenager, I played football, day in day out. Although I wasn't good enough to be a professional, I had aspirations playing at amateur level (school, district, college).
When I was 16, I played in friendly game. I was a right winger. A long ball hoofed forward towards my team's half. I positioned myself between the running attacker, to let the ball trickle out of play. Routine stuff. The player suddenly lunged into a desperate tackle from behind to win the ball. He clattered me instead. The ball still went out.
I was out for 9 months. And I was never the same player again. I struggled to regain my pace and fitness (and other players just got better during my absence). Worst still, the injury was recurring, so I had to play more cautiously than before. I can't fight for 50-50 balls anymore. I had to reinvent my playstyle, playing as right-back or defensive midfielder.
I've played with peers from England and Spain. English players tend to be reckless and rough. Spanish players are so much more technically better - they can rob the ball off you cleanly with the barest of physical contact (as we have seen in this Euro). Sometimes, the trick is not even to make any tackle. Just press the player, cut off his passing angle, and force him to make a mistake (over-hitting a dribble or a pass). Point is, winning the ball is a skill itself that should be rewarded. When dangerous tackles don't get punished, it just dilutes the quality of the game (any skill-less idiot can body check and make sliding tackles), and above all, put players at risk of life-changing injuries.
My personal anecdotal experience may not count for much. But believe me, a lot of my friends suffer the same injury problems, to different degrees. If you've never played competitive football before, I guess it's hard to appreciate the difference between a good tackle and bad tackle. One of my first memories of an adult football was an incident with an open broken leg injury. Good thing is that I wasn't able to realize how bad it was because I was just 5 years old. What a memory to have! I really don't get why people are defending ruthless play. If they wanna see more tackles - there's rugby, american football, ice hockey. If they wanna see more blood - there's plenty of sports for that as well. If they wanna see plenty of leg injuries, there are places on the interwebz with blood & gore. And I really get that the players don't want to hurt each other but these kind of tackles can do that. Protecting health makes the game better, not worse.
Thanks for understanding. And it's not that we're against tackles and defensive play. In fact, one positive side of the injury is that I began to learn the art of passive positional defending. Italian defenders are the gold standard. Cannavaro rarely even needs to make a tackle, whilst Nesta's tackles are always well-timed and doesn't break anyone's leg.
It's really sad if modern football still allows skillful players like KDB to get kicked out of the pitch on a constant basis. It's no coincidence that some of the dangerous tackles don't even happen in the penalty box but in the middle of the park where there's no real danger (just like in my situation where the attacker had almost 0% chance of getting the ball). It's just reckless play - plain and simple.
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So with this development one would think it wise that UEFA/FIFA ban fans from viewing the game in person.
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On July 01 2021 01:25 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2021 00:59 Kaolla wrote:On June 30 2021 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, Lineker is speaking about the tackle that resulted in a red card in Sweden vs Ukraine. I think that was a clear red card. Swedish pundits agreed. Prolly the only ones that don't are people who grew up watching or playing English football back when Vinnie Jones was a thing.
I also agree with mahrgell on England. They might not have been dazzling, but they've been convincing. While there are many teams I support to varying degrees, England is the one I support the most this EC, and I'm totally pleased with their performance so far. Sure - I'd like to see more flashy players than Rice and Phillips, but they seem really balanced. Not just the old players tho, on Dutch TV vd Vaart (who I don't consider an old player as he didn't retire that long ago) was arguing about it not being a red card either. He feels the player went 100% for the ball and didn't even see the other guy, so there was no intent. Personally I thought it was a red card. When you go for a ball like that you do risk injuring another player and not in some freak accident kinda way, but just because of what we've seen happen. Other than that, I support Italy, despite their bad showing in the 1/8 finals, I hope they manage to find their good form and play some good football. Not a big fan of the English team in general, just not very many likeable players in my opinion. I think they have a good shot at the final victory though. This just show how bad a professional Vd Vaart was. Especially in the end of his karriere. Not knowing rules aa professional and even worse TV expert is disgraceful.
Well they already had the opinion of a pro ref before vd Vaart began talking (iirc), who said it was a red card. He was just arguing that he felt it shouldn't be. So it's not so much about not knowing the rules, he just felt that foul shouldn't be a red card because there was no intent to hurt the player and he was just going for the ball.
From what I read on another forum, in Belgium the commentators also were not 100% agreeing on whether it should or shouldn't have been red (haven't seen that, but I assume it's probably similar to vd Vaart's reasoning). Anyway, I guess the opinions in TV land are not 100% one-sided on this. Personally I felt it was pretty damn clear though.
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Hm... maybe it's a matter of stricter crowd control? I'm somewhat surprised to see so many spectators allowed in some stadiums (especially in Budapest, and Wembley for Eng-Ger). Some venues seem to have better social-distancing rules than others.
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On July 01 2021 02:05 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2021 01:25 Sapaio wrote:On July 01 2021 00:59 Kaolla wrote:On June 30 2021 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, Lineker is speaking about the tackle that resulted in a red card in Sweden vs Ukraine. I think that was a clear red card. Swedish pundits agreed. Prolly the only ones that don't are people who grew up watching or playing English football back when Vinnie Jones was a thing.
I also agree with mahrgell on England. They might not have been dazzling, but they've been convincing. While there are many teams I support to varying degrees, England is the one I support the most this EC, and I'm totally pleased with their performance so far. Sure - I'd like to see more flashy players than Rice and Phillips, but they seem really balanced. Not just the old players tho, on Dutch TV vd Vaart (who I don't consider an old player as he didn't retire that long ago) was arguing about it not being a red card either. He feels the player went 100% for the ball and didn't even see the other guy, so there was no intent. Personally I thought it was a red card. When you go for a ball like that you do risk injuring another player and not in some freak accident kinda way, but just because of what we've seen happen. Other than that, I support Italy, despite their bad showing in the 1/8 finals, I hope they manage to find their good form and play some good football. Not a big fan of the English team in general, just not very many likeable players in my opinion. I think they have a good shot at the final victory though. This just show how bad a professional Vd Vaart was. Especially in the end of his karriere. Not knowing rules aa professional and even worse TV expert is disgraceful. Well they already had the opinion of a pro ref before vd Vaart began talking (iirc), who said it was a red card. He was just arguing that he felt it shouldn't be. So it's not so much about not knowing the rules, he just felt that foul shouldn't be a red card because there was no intent to hurt the player and he was just going for the ball. From what I read on another forum, in Belgium the commentators also were not 100% agreeing on whether it should or shouldn't have been red (haven't seen that, but I assume it's probably similar to vd Vaart's reasoning). Anyway, I guess the opinions in TV land are not 100% one-sided on this. Personally I felt it was pretty damn clear though.
Intent should be irrelevant. Recklessness is enough to constitute dangerous play. Obviously every player 'intends' to get the ball when making a tackle.
Let's just say I have the ball at my feet. There's no way I can completely shield the ball from all angles. The opponent slides in two-footed from behind at a small space between my legs. As he tackles through, my leg moves and catches the tackle*. He breaks my leg. Clearly a foul, yes?
But what if my leg didn't move. His feet reaches the ball first, and his momentum hits me to the ground. My leg is fine this time. No real harm done. But still should be a foul, yes?
A play is dangerous by the very act itself, not the intent nor even result. So long as an act is highly likely to cause serious harm, it's a foul. The tackler getting the ball first in such situation is irrelevant (nor even a mitigating factor, in my view).
* It's ridiculous that in justifying such a tackle, some people go as far as effectively saying that the player in possession moving the leg is to be blamed and absolve the attacker from blame. By that logic, every time I have the ball at my feet and the opposing player makes a tackle aimed at the ball (even if my body is in the way), I should just jump away and let him get the ball.
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For those wondering why people don't support England as much, this may be one of the reasons
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Northern Ireland26292 Posts
‘Cry more slut’ I mean… what?
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Ah yes, lets link social media posst and generalize a mass population, oh how i love the internet these days.....
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On July 01 2021 02:47 Pandemona wrote:Ah yes, lets link social media posst and generalize a mass population, oh how i love the internet these days.....
Considering the way they booed everything german in the stadium at every opportunity I would hazard a guess that there are more than a few English fans like that...
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On July 01 2021 02:05 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2021 01:25 Sapaio wrote:On July 01 2021 00:59 Kaolla wrote:On June 30 2021 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, Lineker is speaking about the tackle that resulted in a red card in Sweden vs Ukraine. I think that was a clear red card. Swedish pundits agreed. Prolly the only ones that don't are people who grew up watching or playing English football back when Vinnie Jones was a thing.
I also agree with mahrgell on England. They might not have been dazzling, but they've been convincing. While there are many teams I support to varying degrees, England is the one I support the most this EC, and I'm totally pleased with their performance so far. Sure - I'd like to see more flashy players than Rice and Phillips, but they seem really balanced. Not just the old players tho, on Dutch TV vd Vaart (who I don't consider an old player as he didn't retire that long ago) was arguing about it not being a red card either. He feels the player went 100% for the ball and didn't even see the other guy, so there was no intent. Personally I thought it was a red card. When you go for a ball like that you do risk injuring another player and not in some freak accident kinda way, but just because of what we've seen happen. Other than that, I support Italy, despite their bad showing in the 1/8 finals, I hope they manage to find their good form and play some good football. Not a big fan of the English team in general, just not very many likeable players in my opinion. I think they have a good shot at the final victory though. This just show how bad a professional Vd Vaart was. Especially in the end of his karriere. Not knowing rules aa professional and even worse TV expert is disgraceful. Well they already had the opinion of a pro ref before vd Vaart began talking (iirc), who said it was a red card. He was just arguing that he felt it shouldn't be. So it's not so much about not knowing the rules, he just felt that foul shouldn't be a red card because there was no intent to hurt the player and he was just going for the ball. From what I read on another forum, in Belgium the commentators also were not 100% agreeing on whether it should or shouldn't have been red (haven't seen that, but I assume it's probably similar to vd Vaart's reasoning). Anyway, I guess the opinions in TV land are not 100% one-sided on this. Personally I felt it was pretty damn clear though.
OK guess I misunderstood other post. Thought I argued that it was legal, just saying it should be. Everybody have the right to a view, I disagree. Glad they ban/red tackles that have high probability of injuring other players. I am surprised a offensive smaller player feel that way,
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this is so fucking pathetic holy shit. what the fuck goes through your head to write shit like that on a public forum? literal oxygen thieves
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I'm happy I don't use twitter anymore.
Anyway, don't worry English people, we don't support you too much outside of England, but you are not hated like the French NT.
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EPT
