On July 31 2024 07:33 aseq wrote: The people that thought up these rules are rather dumb as well. Let's kill the euphoria for thousands of fans because of some stupid post-race regulations. Just weigh that car without tyres or fuel before the race and you're set! The weight of the driver is already compensated at this stage, should be easy to fix the weight of the car at this point as well.
Driving around the track to pick up loose pieces of rubber in order to make weight just feels ridiculous. This sport is over-regulated as it is...
This specific rule is a leftover from when teams brought their own tyres, necessitating counting them as part of the car. It simply hasn't come up all that often for them to bother changing it. Not saying I don't agree, just giving a history on how it came to be.
Knowing FIA though, they won't bother changing it unless it happens another 5 times
Weighing the car empty in Parc Fermé before the race would be the simplest solution, yeah, but then they won't necessarily catch anyone trying to cheat by adding weights before weighing and removing them before driving out, which is the main reason they keep doing random weight tests during qualy, and race (And sometimes even during practice, for whatever reason)
Is it possible to do a weight test on the track itself as they're lined up just before they go out and do their warmup lap ahead of a race? I guess a driver could theoretically do a pit stop and have the team take off something to reduce weight later.
Idk, if George really lost this race on a technicality because he lost too much rubber from this tire strategy, that's just awful and the rule definitely needs to be changed.
Here's Jolyon Palmer's analysis of what the problem was. Given that it only happened for one driver, and other drivers doing 1 stops didn't run into the issue, it's a Merc problem. I don't see any reg changes coming out of this, the rule is black and white.
I'm not disputing that the rule is black and white and that he should be DQed. I'm saying that the rule is dumb and should be changed though. It punishes teams who want to try to run a 1-stopper no? Because now they need more weight on their car which would cause tires to degrade faster. I want to encourage teams trying different strategies rather than trying to force them into 2-stoppers. Hence why weighing of the cars should be done without tires on imo.
On August 01 2024 04:16 FlaShFTW wrote: I'm not disputing that the rule is black and white and that he should be DQed. I'm saying that the rule is dumb and should be changed though. It punishes teams who want to try to run a 1-stopper no? Because now they need more weight on their car which would cause tires to degrade faster. I want to encourage teams trying different strategies rather than trying to force them into 2-stoppers. Hence why weighing of the cars should be done without tires on imo.
It doesn't hurt a 1 stopper any more than it hurts a 2 stopper. The tires have a finite amount of tread. You can either burn it all quickly pushing every lap or ease up and it'll go long enough for a 1stop. It's not going to be any less tread at the end of the stint if you've done it right.
On August 01 2024 04:16 FlaShFTW wrote: I'm not disputing that the rule is black and white and that he should be DQed. I'm saying that the rule is dumb and should be changed though. It punishes teams who want to try to run a 1-stopper no? Because now they need more weight on their car which would cause tires to degrade faster. I want to encourage teams trying different strategies rather than trying to force them into 2-stoppers. Hence why weighing of the cars should be done without tires on imo.
It doesn't hurt a 1 stopper any more than it hurts a 2 stopper. The tires have a finite amount of tread. You can either burn it all quickly pushing every lap or ease up and it'll go long enough for a 1stop. It's not going to be any less tread at the end of the stint if you've done it right.
This is not true. Yes, drivers will push and use up as much as they can of their tyres before coming in either for a pit stop or the end of the race, but drivers that stop more will have more rubber left, simply because if they used it all as you suggest, they'd be as slow as the 1-stoppers. The benefit that 1-stoppers have is that they gain 20-30 seconds from not having to do an extra pit stop. They'll then go long on their tyres, and lose valuable lap time as the rubber wears down, but banks on the time lost from having worn tyres not being longer than what they gained. Meanwhile, the drivers who did an extra stop have to gain back that extra time, and if their tyres was as worn as the guys who did the 1-stop, they simply be just as slow.
So yes, pitting one time less than your opponent will wear down your tyres a lot more than them, even if they are pushing harder on their fresher sets of tyres to catch back up to you.
Now calling it a Merc problem is also taking it a bit lightly. Not every car is weighed after the finish, only those on the podium + a few at random. We simply don't know if the other 1-stoppers also ended up underweight here. But even if they didn't, it's still a problem that exists because of rules that straight up limits possible strategies. This is not what we as fans wants from the sport. We want the possibility of someone running a bonkers left-field hail-mary strategy, even if it's at Spa where you can't then pick up extra rubber at the end of the race. It's not productive to simply blame Merc for trying something different, when the rules should be changed to allow this possibility in the future.
The footage from Max' car not being able to turn is insane. How did he finish 2nd in that thing? How did the car suddenly get so shit? Perez struggling suddenly makes more sense now.
I'm sure there's going to be differing opinions on this, but I think Piastri is showing himself a poor team player again here. I understand wanting to fight and show yourself, but Norris has a legit possibility to fight for the WDC this year. Attacking your teammate and pushing him so hard that he ends up further down the grid is not how you help your team and teammate fight for the WDC. Not to mention the risk of that move crashing both cars out.
Edit: Thinking a bit more about it, I think the fault lies more with McLaren than Piastri. They should have made it clear from the start to not fight like that if they are 1-2. While letting your drivers fight is commendable in some ways, it keeps putting them in awkward positions by not being strict on it. They make the races much more difficult for themselves, in what should have been an easy 1-2. And it hasn't dawned on them at all that they are actually fighting for the WDC
Edit2: and there you have it. Strategy wasn't the greatest either, tbf, but Piastri diving Norris in the beginning is a direct contribution to McLaren not easily driving into a 1-2 sunset today. McLaren needs to stop dilly dallying like this if they want to be taken seriously
On September 01 2024 23:21 LennX wrote: Leclerc masterclass covering a Ferrari disastrous decision
I am still unsure about Mclaren letting Piastri and Norris fight. They may still have enough time
No they 100% should've swapped for a 2/3. Piastri has to know he's not in a fight for the WDC.
Norris has to get 8 points a race to win, and he just barely got that today. McLaren still don't seem like they want to win the championship. Could've been eating into Max's lead even more than average.
McLaren is not Red Bull, is not Mercedez, and is not Ferrari.
The McLaren team has been around forever, with the exception of Ferrari, is the oldest actual team with more experience in formula1. There is a reason behind what they do, they are not cold blooded like Mercedez, or extreme like Red Bull, or grama style like Ferrari. They do what they do and they know that they do what they do. They will win the constructors championship no sweat, the will rule as kings. If Norris wants to be a king as well, he needs to prove it by putting piastri in a corner. As of today, he was barely able to pass verstappen. That is up to him. If he wishes he will grow a pair.
50 years of racing are more important than a Monza weekend.
Edit: honorable mention for Williams, huge respect for them
That's today's weird take. McLaren has been around forever so they're not like Ferrari..? The literal only team on the grid that has been in F1 since the beginning? And what does this have to do with anything? McLaren today isn't the same team it was in 1980. Heck, it's not the same team it was 3 years ago. Engineers, drivers and management comes and goes. It's a really weird take to claim that because a team has existed for a long time, they know what they're doing.
GP Brawn existed for one season, and they won it. Talent, hard work, cleverness and a lump of luck is what makes a team good. Not history.
Right now, McLaren are looking like amateurs by continuously putting their drivers in awkward situations, and losing out on both WDC and WCC points because of it. None of their history is shining through. There is zero security in them winning the WCC. Red Bull could easily find out what's troubling their car and find pace again. You can't just give up half way because you're confident. There's no guarantee you'll continue to outpace the other teams for the rest of the season. Every race weekend is important. We don't know if they'll easily win the WCC by a country mile, or lose it to Ferrari by 2 points at the end of the season because Leclerc took Victory today
Edit: Also, I should point out, the WDC is also for the team, not just the driver. It's what every team is fighting for. The WCC is a secondary trophy to the WDC. Everyone remembers that Max won in 2021, no one cares that Mercedes took the WCC, if they even know at all.
I can see why they would make Lando prove it on track and permit the overtake, and I was a bit concerned they would force a swap in the event of a 1-2, so I'm glad to see that put to bed.
However, I can't see any reason not to switch the cars in a 2-3. The points aren't particularly valuable to Piastri and the ego difference for P2 vs P3 is surely not high enough on its own, especially when it's obvious who was the better driver on the day either way. He's made his statement, why not throw Lando a bone?
It's obviously a tricky dance for McLaren. They have two extremely hot drivers, and they clearly believe that being hands-off is the best way to manage the situation. They have to be angling for one of these drivers to carry the team for the next five years, but they probably don't know which, so they are trying to white-glove both as much as possible.
Personally, I'd value the WDC in shooting distance a lot more highly, but I guess they're angling for the medium term instead.
On September 03 2024 22:39 Belisarius wrote: I can see why they would make Lando prove it on track and permit the overtake, and I was a bit concerned they would force a swap in the event of a 1-2, so I'm glad to see that put to bed.
However, I can't see any reason not to switch the cars in a 2-3. The points aren't particularly valuable to Piastri and the ego difference for P2 vs P3 is surely not high enough on its own, especially when it's obvious who was the better driver on the day either way. He's made his statement, why not throw Lando a bone?
It's obviously a tricky dance for McLaren. They have two extremely hot drivers, and they clearly believe that being hands-off is the best way to manage the situation. They have to be angling for one of these drivers to carry the team for the next five years, but they probably don't know which, so they are trying to white-glove both as much as possible.
Personally, I'd value the WDC in shooting distance a lot more highly, but I guess they're angling for the medium term instead.
Weirdest part is that I don't think Piastri is especially hot headed. He's had no problems playing the team game before. And whilst I appreciate his eager to show himself worthy, there's zero shame in saying "Hey, you've improved strides this year. But it took you a bit at the start of the season to build up to it, and now you're behind Lando in points, and we have a real shot at the WDC, so he'll get preferential treatment until the end of the season". They did this at Mercedes every year. Bottas was never the driver Hamilton was, of course, but each year started with clean slates. Only once one of the drivers started pulling away did they start giving him preferential treatment to secure the championship. They still do it with George.
I meant hot in the sense of hot property, but I do think he must also be less chill than it looks from the outside.
That turn 1 jump was as much an assertion of dominance as I've ever seen. That's not a driver accepting their role as wingman, no sir not one bit. And the only plausible explanation for holding 2-3 is if Piastri has pushed back very hard in some pre-brief, despite the smile and the shrug for the cameras.
I expect him to be fairly well behaved for the rest of the season, and probably for the "papaya rules" to ban turn 1 overtakes from now on, but if McLaren are still at the front next year we might have some serious fireworks coming.
EPT
