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Join the TLnet's F1 Fantasy before the season begins!  https://fantasy.formula1.com/ Code: ce956688bf Thank you KobraKay for making the league. :D | ||
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Excludos
Norway8250 Posts
On July 01 2024 03:05 Penev wrote: Sure. I'm not going to respond anymore cause you're just going to put words into my mouth, again. Where did I put words in your mouth? | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
Russel was the goat: i was looking at the screens and saw them fighting, and i was dreaming that maybe, possibly, a crash could happen, and then it did, and i was there to pick up the pieces, so yeyyyyyyyy. | ||
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Aristodemus
England2010 Posts
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pebble444
Italy2503 Posts
The real question I ask myself is, is Lando Norris capable of passing verstappen in a clean cut scenario with both drivers on same rubber, same pace? Because until now the answer to that question for me is no, at least not yet. He is the one and only challenger this season to max and his Red Bull. Who else has the pace? I think Mercedes do not, Ferrari do the Ferrari thing, so who else? Oscar Piastri? Perez of course is in the gutter at the moment, so Norris is the only one who can challenge for the drivers championship. For the constructors, well, that is another pair of gloves, could go anywhere | ||
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Penev
28524 Posts
Verstappen squeezing Norris (2024) v Sainz squeezing Verstappen (2023) | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On July 01 2024 06:14 Penev wrote: Here an interesting comparison to put things a bit more in perspective. Not only to point out that it really wasn't that egregious as some people have claimed but also Lando could've reacted better and didn't make most of the opportunity: Verstappen squeezing Norris (2024) v Sainz squeezing Verstappen (2023) I'm kinda old school and thus still a firm believer in more information being preferable to less information, so to contrast the reddit gifs I present the highlights video of Austria 2023: + Show Spoiler + We have the following situations in which drivers left space on the outside for competitors going wheel to wheel with them into corners: Lap 17 - Sainz for Norris Lap 20 - Perez for Sainz Lap 42 - Perez for Alonso (Alonso actually fell back but Perez still left space) Lap 47 - Norris for Sainz Lap 60 - Perez for Sainz (There is also an instance in which De Vries squeezed Magnussen out and got a penalty for it) There are also a couple instances in which drivers chose to fall back instead of going wheel to wheel on the outside into the corners: Lap 1 (x2) - Leclerc Lap 26 - Verstappen (this is the situation from the gif) Lap 59 - Perez (managed to overtake in identical fashion to Verstappen in Lap 26) Lap 61 - Perez (again managed to overtake in identical fashion to Verstappen in Lap 26) I'd say, if anything, Austria 2023 shows us that when fighting wheel to wheel, one can expect to be left some room on the outside of the corner. And to put things even more into perspective, Austria 2023 was during the Red Bull rocket ship era when both Verstappen and Perez could do whatever and still easily overtake anyone else... Perez fumbled the quali and still managed to finish 3rd despite starting 15th... Verstappen not only won 5 sec ahead of 2nd place and 17 sec ahead of 3rd, but did so by doing one more pit stop than anyone else (4 vs 3) and despite skipping out on the pit stop under VSC that basically everybody else utilized (laps 14&15) + Show Spoiler + To top it of, Verstappen's decision in lap 26 during the overtake was arguably under the presumption that he not only had the better car but also the tyre advantage (2 laps old hards vs 11 laps old mediums) | ||
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LennX
4568 Posts
Looks like Sainz was right. The older Ferrari's setup was better Haas finishes as the best Ferrari powered car  It's a Merc 1 2 !! | ||
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Excludos
Norway8250 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8250 Posts
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LennX
4568 Posts
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Penev
28524 Posts
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Penev
28524 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10373 Posts
This race still shows Lando's inexperience as a championship-level driver. The car is great, best car in the field right now, he's got the speed to win races, but his decision making and tire management is lacking. I'm sure he's learning a lot from this season and hopefully if Mclaren can be as good if not better next season, he might be in contention for a WDC. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8250 Posts
On July 08 2024 08:50 FlaShFTW wrote: LEWISSSS GET INNNNNN!!! This race still shows Lando's inexperience as a championship-level driver. The car is great, best car in the field right now, he's got the speed to win races, but his decision making and tire management is lacking. I'm sure he's learning a lot from this season and hopefully if Mclaren can be as good if not better next season, he might be in contention for a WDC. What do you mean decision making? His engineer is setting him up for failure by asking "Should we take mediums and cover Max, or take softs and go for Lewis?" When mediums was the obvious right choice to go for Lewis as well. Lando made the choice based on the information given to him, which was straigt up false. Not that the choice should have been left up to Lando in the first place. This is not common behaviour, and something McLaren needs to stop. Their drivers don't sit on the same information they do, so they should be making these choices. Notice how often Mercedes overrules Hamilton when it comes to these decisions. They're not always right, but at least they're making decisions and not just leaving it to the driver. And that's just the last of the many many wrong choices McLaren made in that race. Their pit stop strategies was a masterclass in making every bad decision possible in a race. I don't see how any of this reflects on Lando | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4275 Posts
On July 08 2024 13:55 Excludos wrote: What do you mean decision making? His engineer is setting him up for failure by asking "Should we take mediums and cover Max, or take softs and go for Lewis?" When mediums was the obvious right choice to go for Lewis as well. Lando made the choice based on the information given to him, which was straigt up false. Not that the choice should have been left up to Lando in the first place. This is not common behaviour, and something McLaren needs to stop. Their drivers don't sit on the same information they do, so they should be making these choices. Notice how often Mercedes overrules Hamilton when it comes to these decisions. They're not always right, but at least they're making decisions and not just leaving it to the driver. And that's just the last of the many many wrong choices McLaren made in that race. Their pit stop strategies was a masterclass in making every bad decision possible in a race. I don't see how any of this reflects on Lando Norris made 2 calls that race that cost him: - choice of when to box (boxed one lap latter than he should) - choice for softs. The first one needs to be on the driver 100% in those conditions and the second one almost as well, he is the one thinking about the grip level and if there is any difference in going x laps pushing with mediums or softs (while on this second one some attempt to overrule from the team should happen). But they did gave him the information they had, lewis on softs, max on harder tyre. Mclaren did kill Piastri's race though, that is for sure. A double stack would have cost him some 4 seconds, but a full lap was near 12 IIRC. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8250 Posts
On July 08 2024 18:08 KobraKay wrote: Norris made 2 calls that race that cost him: - choice of when to box (boxed one lap latter than he should) - choice for softs. The first one needs to be on the driver 100% in those conditions and the second one almost as well, he is the one thinking about the grip level and if there is any difference in going x laps pushing with mediums or softs (while on this second one some attempt to overrule from the team should happen). But they did gave him the information they had, lewis on softs, max on harder tyre. Mclaren did kill Piastri's race though, that is for sure. A double stack would have cost him some 4 seconds, but a full lap was near 12 IIRC. I don't think you understand how much more information the engineers are sitting on. I haven't checked, but I'm confident neither Lewis nor Max chose their own pit-time either. The engineers can see when the lap times on each tyre becomes higher or lower than expected lap time of the new ones. Even the commentators knew it, down to the second. Engineers sit on the information on each tyre, how long they'll last, expected lap times, wear, etc. The driver is busy driving. He shouldn't be making these decisions to begin with. Lumping a ton of decisions on the driver, that he shouldn't be expected to make in the first place, and then also give him the wrong information, and then expect him to make the right decisions, is insane to me. Especially when you give leading questions such as "should we do this and try to save P2, or do this and try to get P1?". There's not a driver on the grid who doesn't choose the latter. This is far from the first time they do this either. Remember Russia? When Lando got shit on for choosing the wrong tyre? The race Lewis won? When he was told to pit whilst he was going "Are you sure? I don't think this is the right time". Meanwhile McLaren dumps it all on the driver so he be left out to dry | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4275 Posts
But norris is young and still learning. There was one communication on RB asking max to call the moment for pit entry and one asking if it had already turned to inter conditions if im not remembering this wrongly. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8250 Posts
On July 08 2024 23:41 xM(Z wrote: i choose to believe that the pilots had at least a 67% stake in the decision of when to pit else the argument becomes but, but ... maths and cloud reading makes pilots irrelevant. I mean, of course it's a partnership, not a one-way street. Pilots are in the seat, and gives continuous feedback on the conditions. But it's also true that the engineers are sitting on all the information, whilst the drivers are busy mainly focusing on driving, not calculating lap times between different sets of tyres in their heads on the fly. Engineers should always make decisions when they are the ones sitting on the information, such as not choosing soft tyres when there's 14 rounds left in a race on a track that mainly consists of high speed corners. What I'm saying is, it makes no sense to blame Lando for a decision that Lewis and Max' engineers knew better than to let them make in the first place. McLaren's engineers are setting Lando up for failure by letting him make bad decisions that they could easily have made without involving him. I'm genuinely dumbfounded by the fact that anyone in the paddock would even consider softs to be a reasonable compound to go on there, when they had mediums available, and even stated themselves that they would be the best only a lap earlier. Why pretend they could "go for Lewis" by putting on softs? Absolutely mindboggling. Putting Lando aside, they also completely threw Piastri under the bus as well. How they couldn't predict that he'd lose 20 seconds by sending him around again, instead of 2-3 seconds by double stacking (And also possibly pushing back any competitor with equal amount, giving more breathing room to Norris), is beyond me. They're doing the Ferrari 2022 strategy of just letting an 8-ball dictate their decisions, and it shows by how many times they've manage to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory this season. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
car vs car, the McLaren was the superior one so what happened?(sure there were those 5ish seconds that Lewis had on Lando but still...). (i don't think anyone doubts that Piastri was sacrificed for nothing) Edit: Piastri was also asked about the tire choice and he chose mediums | ||
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