On October 02 2018 00:59 sneirac wrote: How in the world is moving the ball forward faster gonna help if the opponent parks 10 men in the box?
In general it isn't 10 men literally in the box they still move to close people down, if you can move the ball quickly then the defence doesn't have as much time to reorganise and pockets of space can appear.
But in that case the opponent isn't parking the bus as hard as they did against Peps Barca.
On October 01 2018 23:23 Pandemona wrote: They got to the edge of the box, did not shoot and went backwards, this was caused by them playing to slowly yes, that was at its peak in 2009. It felt like they kept the ball because they needed to keep it away from the opponent which is Pep 101 but did not shoot or move it as quick as teams move it now. In peak 2009 Barca they played it across the opponents box side to side and everyone was bored. Or at least so the people i spoke to in England xD
Sarri/Klopp versions of this and Pep Bayern/Man City side played the ball way faster, not at the beginning of Bayern era but defo towards the end of that stint. The speed was crazy.
Stuff like this is what i mean, they just played so slow. This is what i remember from "peak 2009" Barca. Then now when i look at a Pep team i see fast paced, lots and lots and lots of off the ball movement added in with crazy formations and beautiful passing at pace.
On October 01 2018 23:15 Rebs wrote:
On October 01 2018 22:40 Pandemona wrote: Difference with Mayweather analogy is the people calling him boring do not understand the sport.
There is no difference, I would say that people who consider teams that smash scoring records or win trophies styles "boring" to not understand the sport either.
Again this is irrelevant and wrong. The results determines the success, Mayweather winning without getting hit and jabbing his way to victory compared to Pacqiao is chalk and cheese. Mayweather was more successful, Chelsea had these point records and goal records before the Pep man city record by parking the bus.....
Regarding the video, is it completely lost on you that the centreback is camping the edge of the opponents half ?
Making a risky play at that point is a gauranteed counter attack and no one is trying to press or take the ball on the other side. What is it that you propose they do ? Make a dumb through ball thats get intercepted and releases a counter?
And the ball is moving quickly, I am not sure what you mean by slow here.
And regarding your comment about it being irrelevant and wrong I dont understand the point you are trying to make, the syntax is confusing.
You said you don't understand football if you think that smashing scoring records and winning trophies is boring....yet the records are there from bus parking times as well in terms of goals and teams still win major trophies by bus parking...
You cannot compare boxing to anything like football in terms of end goal. The goal isn't to knock your opponent out, that is just a win condition. The idea of boxing is to score a blow on your opponent to help earn the points to win you the round. Watch Amateur/Olympic boxing to understand what boxing is, it isn't Deontay Wilder windmilling his way to a victory because he has a god given gift of granite hands. It's the ability to hit and not get hit. That is the skill and art of boxing.
The aim of football is to out score your opponents, how you do that is up for debate. Bus parking into counters and set pieces or keeping the ball and starving your opponent of said ball so you have more chances to score yourself. Yet the peak 2009 Barca was more keeping the ball whilst not creating as many chances as they could have, for me at least. That was due to the ball moving to slowly, like in the above clip i linked. Its moving side to side slowly without much off the ball movement.
Now if you see City version of this, it is way quicker and always going forward not as much side to side. That is what i am saying the evolution from Pep was, ok you might risk losing the ball more, but if you move it faster and quicker with even more off the ball movement (yes barca pep did lots of off the ball movement as well) then their is more chances to score. That is what right now Chelsea struggling with and Liverpool took time learning under Klopp too. The ability to move the ball quickly and fast, if you do not, it is easy for teams to sit in and park the bus against you. See Chelsea 0-0 vs West Ham.
No, there are no goalscoring records from Parking the bus times. If you are referencing his first stint in Chelsea I would hardly call that bus parking. It wasnt an aggro style by any means but it wasnt bus parking. No one ever called it that back then either because there was no reason to.
Regarding the movement.. there is plent of off the ball movement.
All it seems to me is that your idea of fast ball movement is just making alot more risky and low percentage plays. at the cost of more turnovers and dealing with the outcome. And thats fine if you have contingencies for it, which I think City do
but thats not a "faster' play style. That's just a more direct one.
It was bus parking, it was the exact same the reason you dont think its bus parking is because instead of Chelsea parking bus for 10 games a season when the league was a top 6, it was vs just 6 as there was only really 4 teams competing for the league. Every game in the champions league under Mourinho is the same defense first style, the game vs Liverpool are just this sum it all up.
The going forward faster like Kelsier said is what i mean and i guess like you said rebs it is more "direct" route but it is how you break a park the bus team more than how you do otherwise. Of course is more risk in it like you also mention but that is what Pep teams did that i noticed under Bayern last season or 2 and his time at Man City
Again, how in the world will going forward faster help against teams that truly park the bus. Think 10 man in the box and hoof it to Drogba. The only reason faster attacks work for City and Klopppool is because opponents play them way more openly than anyone ever dared to play against Peps Barca.
They were only 10men in box when Barca was on their side, wasn't it? When the ball was on Barca's side they werent all waiting in the box or do I remember incorrectly?
In the video Pande linked as an example the grand total time their opponent spends with the ball in Barcas half is 0. The only time there actually aren't 10 men behind the ball is when they come to midfield, lose the ball, Barca has space and Xavi takes a shot.
You can still play forward and fast vs that, they are not 10 men in box, they are playable through the lines etc. Speed kills in this game and new pep is speed with the ball and even more movement than before.
Probably low, the documents that are most damning would have to be admissible first and then he would have to be somewhere the US can actually get to him.
On October 02 2018 03:50 Pandemona wrote: You can still play forward and fast vs that, they are not 10 men in box, they are playable through the lines etc. Speed kills in this game and new pep is speed with the ball and even more movement than before.
Again you say fast but all you are calling for is trying to hit some of the runs those players make into channels that have 2 man coverage on them. Basically a low percentage hail mary,. Its not that easy bro come on you know better than to expect people to make shit plays and turn the ball over when your centerbacks are camping the other teams half of the line.
Always feel this kind of possession based football requires technically good players. You need players who can dribble past defenders, creating space and panic to unlock otherwise tight defences. Otherwise hogging possession and passing left centre right will do nothing.
Most of the tiki taka videos I see involves players like messi/iniesta drawing defenders towards them, thus creating the opening for other players to move be found.
Right now for Chelsea, we only have hazard capable of doing that. That is why our attack is not so in tune yet. That's why I give so much shit to Barkley early on when all I see him do is be a Henderson. Still feel kovacic/Barkley/rlc have much more to contribute, but work in progress.
Probably low, the documents that are most damning would have to be admissible first and then he would have to be somewhere the US can actually get to him.
At least the police has the evidences from when the woman first reported about the rape back in 2009. She did went through the medical examination, with DNA swabbing and injury being examined back then. And if the DNA matched with Ronaldo, that is going to be admissible.
On October 02 2018 16:18 DucK- wrote: Always feel this kind of possession based football requires technically good players. You need players who can dribble past defenders, creating space and panic to unlock otherwise tight defences. Otherwise hogging possession and passing left centre right will do nothing.
Most of the tiki taka videos I see involves players like messi/iniesta drawing defenders towards them, thus creating the opening for other players to move be found.
Right now for Chelsea, we only have hazard capable of doing that. That is why our attack is not so in tune yet. That's why I give so much shit to Barkley early on when all I see him do is be a Henderson. Still feel kovacic/Barkley/rlc have much more to contribute, but work in progress.
Wasn't barkley playing the central mid-field role rather than the wide attacking role that hazard plays. Furthermore wasn't sari playing kante almost like a No.10 , meaning Barkley had to be more disciplined. I haven't watched chelsea for a while so that might have changed.
I agree that you need technically good players to play the system but I don't think barkley was being asked to replace hazard.
Probably low, the documents that are most damning would have to be admissible first and then he would have to be somewhere the US can actually get to him.
At least the police has the evidences from when the woman first reported about the rape back in 2009. She did went through the medical examination, with DNA swabbing and injury being examined back then. And if the DNA matched with Ronaldo, that is going to be admissible.
Well yeah, but Ronaldo doesn't deny having sex with her, but he claims it was consensual. So unless there were injuries making it clear that she was not consenting to anything, it'd be a tough case to prove. That said, RM must be glad they got rid of him, proven or not, a rape allegation is a PR nightmare. And if he did it, its presumably career ending. So RM cashed out just in time.
Probably low, the documents that are most damning would have to be admissible first and then he would have to be somewhere the US can actually get to him.
At least the police has the evidences from when the woman first reported about the rape back in 2009. She did went through the medical examination, with DNA swabbing and injury being examined back then. And if the DNA matched with Ronaldo, that is going to be admissible.
Well yeah, but Ronaldo doesn't deny having sex with her, but he claims it was consensual. So unless there were injuries making it clear that she was not consenting to anything, it'd be a tough case to prove. That said, RM must be glad they got rid of him, proven or not, a rape allegation is a PR nightmare. And if he did it, its presumably career ending. So RM cashed out just in time.
Well.... If the "I heard her saying "No" multiple times but she made herself available, so I continued anyway" stuff can be used... This can cause massive troubles for him. But how relevant this is certainly depends a lot on the local laws. And I have no clue about how those are in this special case.
But pretty sure this whole case will again be settled with some massive payments. That's how it always goes.
Yeah unless the friend of the defendant can testify and give a good background info to what happens, their might be enough for it to go to court. Then like you say its a he said she said case. Whoever has best case will win with a jury i guess.
Probably low, the documents that are most damning would have to be admissible first and then he would have to be somewhere the US can actually get to him.
At least the police has the evidences from when the woman first reported about the rape back in 2009. She did went through the medical examination, with DNA swabbing and injury being examined back then. And if the DNA matched with Ronaldo, that is going to be admissible.
Well yeah, but Ronaldo doesn't deny having sex with her, but he claims it was consensual. So unless there were injuries making it clear that she was not consenting to anything, it'd be a tough case to prove. That said, RM must be glad they got rid of him, proven or not, a rape allegation is a PR nightmare. And if he did it, its presumably career ending. So RM cashed out just in time.
Well.... If the "I heard her saying "No" multiple times but she made herself available, so I continued anyway" stuff can be used... This can cause massive troubles for him. But how relevant this is certainly depends a lot on the local laws. And I have no clue about how those are in this special case.
But pretty sure this whole case will again be settled with some massive payments. That's how it always goes.
Im pretty sure in a UK court that will not be able to be used in this trial, not sure about US laws though.
On October 02 2018 16:18 DucK- wrote: Always feel this kind of possession based football requires technically good players. You need players who can dribble past defenders, creating space and panic to unlock otherwise tight defences. Otherwise hogging possession and passing left centre right will do nothing.
Most of the tiki taka videos I see involves players like messi/iniesta drawing defenders towards them, thus creating the opening for other players to move be found.
Right now for Chelsea, we only have hazard capable of doing that. That is why our attack is not so in tune yet. That's why I give so much shit to Barkley early on when all I see him do is be a Henderson. Still feel kovacic/Barkley/rlc have much more to contribute, but work in progress.
Wasn't barkley playing the central mid-field role rather than the wide attacking role that hazard plays. Furthermore wasn't sari playing kante almost like a No.10 , meaning Barkley had to be more disciplined. I haven't watched chelsea for a while so that might have changed.
I agree that you need technically good players to play the system but I don't think barkley was being asked to replace hazard.
Erm not saying Barkley is replacing hazard. Think hazard as messi, and Barkley being iniesta. But Barkley has been channeling a Henderson instead, at least at the start. Kovacic has been better, but I think they both can offer much more offensively/driving forward instead of just retaining possession.
EPT
