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I preach it, but losing the weight is huge. At that weight you're giving up at least a minute on 5k from ideal racing weight.
Do you have any idea what you can run from 800 or for a mile? I'd be curious to know what you're anaerobic cap is. A good, hard mile time trial would be informative, and it's not a bad way to get a little speed.
Either way, I'd recommend 40-50mpw, although if you've been running 30mpw now that's a big step up especially combined with greater intensity. If you know you're pretty injury resistant, you could probably gradually build towards 45mpw over the next 4-5 weeks. If you have a history of injuries, especially when increasing training load, then I'd recommend staying in the low to mid 30s range.
Workout wise, that mile TT would be helpful, because it gives an idea where you're at cap wise and where to focus effort, but my assumption is given your training and race distances you're aerobic side is probably relatively high relative to your VO2 and anaerobic cap. Which has me thinking 3 workouts a week looking like:
- 3x1k @ 4:00/km, with 1 min easy jog recovery. This progresses to 4x1k, 5x1k, then 6x1k, then 7x1k, then 8x1k. If the first 4x1k is very hard, we'd need to adjust.
- 3x10' @ 7:30 pace. 2' slow jogging in between. Progress a little bit each time, e.g. 3x12', 3x14', 3x16', 3x18'.
- 6x800 @ 6:10 pace/95s per 400. 3' easy jog. Try to take a second or two off each 400 per week.
These are just guesses though without really having your fitness pegged. If you're anaerobic cap is higher those 800s could start faster. I know when I ran 17:56 I was doing 6x800 at 2:35 average, so that's like 40s/mile faster than 5k fitness, but I have a huge anaerobic capacity. I doubt somebody like Bonham, when he is in peak 5k shape could run something similar relative to his fitness like 6x800 in 2:10 w/2:30 recovery.
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Damn. I was looking back at that to see what I was doing and shit that last workout I did a year and a half ago makes me so sad:
Went
6:07
6:04
4:24
4:22
3:36
3:32
2:43
2:37
71
69
Took 1' jog between all the reps. 2xMile, 2x1200, 2x1000, 2x800, 2x400. That's like 5:45 pace for 10k of work, and I noted that other than the last 69 I didn't feel like I was pushing anything too hard.
Then I got injured about 4 days later only a week out for a good, quick 5k race.
Just need to get back in shape weight wise, I was pushing 66-67kg at that time.
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8751 Posts
My quick update: I decided to start training for the mile now. I'm still gonna do those races (a few half marathons, a 10k) but I won't be specifically training for them. For now I'm dropping mileage a bit and making sure I get in a good VO2Max and LT every week. And then I plan to see how much mileage I can build without negatively affecting my quality days.
It went pretty well at the start but for some reason my left calf really tightened up and that achilles is really tight. After running through it for a while, it doesn't seem to be getting better (or worse) so I'm gonna bite the bullet and take some rest. I was pleased with where I started out with my VO2Max work. I did 6x1k averaging 3:04 and I felt smooth and strong. I think I could've done 8 reps just fine but I want to be conservative and my calf was hurting.
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On July 28 2018 03:02 L_Master wrote:I preach it, but losing the weight is huge. At that weight you're giving up at least a minute on 5k from ideal racing weight. Do you have any idea what you can run from 800 or for a mile? I'd be curious to know what you're anaerobic cap is. A good, hard mile time trial would be informative, and it's not a bad way to get a little speed. Either way, I'd recommend 40-50mpw, although if you've been running 30mpw now that's a big step up especially combined with greater intensity. If you know you're pretty injury resistant, you could probably gradually build towards 45mpw over the next 4-5 weeks. If you have a history of injuries, especially when increasing training load, then I'd recommend staying in the low to mid 30s range. Workout wise, that mile TT would be helpful, because it gives an idea where you're at cap wise and where to focus effort, but my assumption is given your training and race distances you're aerobic side is probably relatively high relative to your VO2 and anaerobic cap. Which has me thinking 3 workouts a week looking like: - 3x1k @ 4:00/km, with 1 min easy jog recovery. This progresses to 4x1k, 5x1k, then 6x1k, then 7x1k, then 8x1k. If the first 4x1k is very hard, we'd need to adjust.
- 3x10' @ 7:30 pace. 2' slow jogging in between. Progress a little bit each time, e.g. 3x12', 3x14', 3x16', 3x18'.
- 6x800 @ 6:10 pace/95s per 400. 3' easy jog. Try to take a second or two off each 400 per week.
These are just guesses though without really having your fitness pegged. If you're anaerobic cap is higher those 800s could start faster. I know when I ran 17:56 I was doing 6x800 at 2:35 average, so that's like 40s/mile faster than 5k fitness, but I have a huge anaerobic capacity. I doubt somebody like Bonham, when he is in peak 5k shape could run something similar relative to his fitness like 6x800 in 2:10 w/2:30 recovery.
I should be able to handle a bump up to 45mpw over the next month or so, those workouts might be tough but doable, I’ll run the mile TT on Monday
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On July 28 2018 10:00 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2018 03:02 L_Master wrote:I preach it, but losing the weight is huge. At that weight you're giving up at least a minute on 5k from ideal racing weight. Do you have any idea what you can run from 800 or for a mile? I'd be curious to know what you're anaerobic cap is. A good, hard mile time trial would be informative, and it's not a bad way to get a little speed. Either way, I'd recommend 40-50mpw, although if you've been running 30mpw now that's a big step up especially combined with greater intensity. If you know you're pretty injury resistant, you could probably gradually build towards 45mpw over the next 4-5 weeks. If you have a history of injuries, especially when increasing training load, then I'd recommend staying in the low to mid 30s range. Workout wise, that mile TT would be helpful, because it gives an idea where you're at cap wise and where to focus effort, but my assumption is given your training and race distances you're aerobic side is probably relatively high relative to your VO2 and anaerobic cap. Which has me thinking 3 workouts a week looking like: - 3x1k @ 4:00/km, with 1 min easy jog recovery. This progresses to 4x1k, 5x1k, then 6x1k, then 7x1k, then 8x1k. If the first 4x1k is very hard, we'd need to adjust.
- 3x10' @ 7:30 pace. 2' slow jogging in between. Progress a little bit each time, e.g. 3x12', 3x14', 3x16', 3x18'.
- 6x800 @ 6:10 pace/95s per 400. 3' easy jog. Try to take a second or two off each 400 per week.
These are just guesses though without really having your fitness pegged. If you're anaerobic cap is higher those 800s could start faster. I know when I ran 17:56 I was doing 6x800 at 2:35 average, so that's like 40s/mile faster than 5k fitness, but I have a huge anaerobic capacity. I doubt somebody like Bonham, when he is in peak 5k shape could run something similar relative to his fitness like 6x800 in 2:10 w/2:30 recovery. I should be able to handle a bump up to 45mpw over the next month or so, those workouts might be tough but doable, I’ll run the mile TT on Monday
If the first round of them is tough we will probably want to adjust slightly easier, but we can find that out as we go. I generally think most workouts should be a good effort, but clearly under control and not draining the reserves.
For the mile, just make sure your first 200 is 45s and first 400 is 90s. Third lap is where you have to dig, and fourth you just throw whatever you got left at it. I think going out at 6:00 pace is reasonable. If it's a bit easy you'll close hard, and there is no way you can't run close to 6:10-6:20 at absolute worst.
On July 28 2018 10:00 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2018 03:02 L_Master wrote:I preach it, but losing the weight is huge. At that weight you're giving up at least a minute on 5k from ideal racing weight. Do you have any idea what you can run from 800 or for a mile? I'd be curious to know what you're anaerobic cap is. A good, hard mile time trial would be informative, and it's not a bad way to get a little speed. Either way, I'd recommend 40-50mpw, although if you've been running 30mpw now that's a big step up especially combined with greater intensity. If you know you're pretty injury resistant, you could probably gradually build towards 45mpw over the next 4-5 weeks. If you have a history of injuries, especially when increasing training load, then I'd recommend staying in the low to mid 30s range. Workout wise, that mile TT would be helpful, because it gives an idea where you're at cap wise and where to focus effort, but my assumption is given your training and race distances you're aerobic side is probably relatively high relative to your VO2 and anaerobic cap. Which has me thinking 3 workouts a week looking like: - 3x1k @ 4:00/km, with 1 min easy jog recovery. This progresses to 4x1k, 5x1k, then 6x1k, then 7x1k, then 8x1k. If the first 4x1k is very hard, we'd need to adjust.
- 3x10' @ 7:30 pace. 2' slow jogging in between. Progress a little bit each time, e.g. 3x12', 3x14', 3x16', 3x18'.
- 6x800 @ 6:10 pace/95s per 400. 3' easy jog. Try to take a second or two off each 400 per week.
These are just guesses though without really having your fitness pegged. If you're anaerobic cap is higher those 800s could start faster. I know when I ran 17:56 I was doing 6x800 at 2:35 average, so that's like 40s/mile faster than 5k fitness, but I have a huge anaerobic capacity. I doubt somebody like Bonham, when he is in peak 5k shape could run something similar relative to his fitness like 6x800 in 2:10 w/2:30 recovery. I should be able to handle a bump up to 45mpw over the next month or so, those workouts might be tough but doable, I’ll run the mile TT on Monday
My concern isn't the bump itself. I'm sure doing your normal routine you could handle that no problem. It's the bump combined with adding in some faster running. That's often on skating on thin ice with injuries. The good news is you've been their before, but be careful. Only add mileage to the easy days if you feel good and recovered, and keep stuff on the easy side of easy. Assuming a typical Tue/Thu/Sun hard run split, then I would say M/W should be very easy, not longer than 4M and not faster than 9:45 pace. Friday probably should start that slow, but if you're feeling good you could get down to 8:xx range by the end. Saturday if not feeling well keep above 9, but if you feel recovered averaging 8:15-8:45 is ok.
No non workout runs should be quicker than 8:00 pace.
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8751 Posts
6 weeks is not enough time for a mileage bump to benefit you much. I would vary the mileage a lot over the 6 weeks. Start where you know you're comfortable and then do an aggressive build up to a big peak week and then come down again from there. Running big mileage the 2 weeks before the race won't help you in your race -- it can only sabotage the workouts that would help you and sabotage the race itself. Do a big week 3 weeks out, and then reduce mileage for the final 2 weeks so that you stay sharp and continue to have good workouts. That's the best thing for your race. If you want to continue training after the race, then take a few easy days recovery from the race and then build your mileage back up.
Also I'd stress that your easy days can't be too easy. I'm an extreme case with how slow I like to do my easy days, but I think I'm in about 15:30 5k shape right now and 3 days a week I run 7:50-8:30 pace. There are elites who can run low 13:00 5k and even they utilize 8:00 pace sometimes.
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On July 28 2018 05:19 NonY wrote:
My quick update: I decided to start training for the mile now. I'm still gonna do those races (a few half marathons, a 10k) but I won't be specifically training for them. For now I'm dropping mileage a bit and making sure I get in a good VO2Max and LT every week. And then I plan to see how much mileage I can build without negatively affecting my quality days.
Whoa, far out! What made you change your distance? Do you have a goal time or race in mind? Outside of school and Diamond League/WC/Olympic-level racing, the mile is pretty niche. Really curious to follow your training and see what you can do!
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On July 29 2018 02:46 NonY wrote:
6 weeks is not enough time for a mileage bump to benefit you much. I would vary the mileage a lot over the 6 weeks. Start where you know you're comfortable and then do an aggressive build up to a big peak week and then come down again from there.
I agree that the mileage bump won't benefit him for the 5k, but I'm assuming he is going to seguway this straight into his build for his next half, of adding a little mileage if his body handles it isn't bad.
With that in mind, I also don't see the need for an aggressive build up. Just good, steady, consistent progression gets it done with less injury risk and leading right into his HM/M work.
Running big mileage the 2 weeks before the race won't help you in your race -- it can only sabotage the workouts that would help you and sabotage the race itself.
For a guy that's done 50-60mpw I wouldn't consider 40-45 mpw big mileage. I agree with the principle though, but that's why I encourage him to pay attention to his body and his recovery, and if a few extra easy miles are hurting recovery back off on them.
Do a big week 3 weeks out, and then reduce mileage for the final 2 weeks so that you stay sharp and continue to have good workouts. That's the best thing for your race.
This training he is doing is going to be on 30-45mpw for a guy used to 50+. The global volume is not high. He's not going to be struggling with a large build up of fatigue. In this context, I disagree with the need to reduce mileage at all, at that mileage and volume relative to what he has run, backing down in the last 2 weeks will only cause a loss of fitness. At 40mpw, if you have a goal race on Saturday with a Tue/Thu workout scheme you might want to take Thursday as an easy day. Solid workouts in race week, with a subtle reduction in volume of the Tuesday workout (think 4x800, 4x400 or something) is MORE than enough to be 100% sharp for a runner like LF.
This is a different situation from a very serious collegiate runner pushing a big cycle at 70-100mpw with a major meet coming up, where I agree two weeks would be highly advisable.
If you want to continue training after the race, then take a few easy days recovery from the race and then build your mileage back up.
Yep. I would take 1-2 days off after your race, 1-2 days recovery, then back into training cycle for HM/M.
Also I'd stress that your easy days can't be too easy. I'm an extreme case with how slow I like to do my easy days, but I think I'm in about 15:30 5k shape right now and 3 days a week I run 7:50-8:30 pace. There are elites who can run low 13:00 5k and even they utilize 8:00 pace sometimes.
Agree strongly, tried to emphasize this with the paces I gave. Until you're running 100+ mpw with great workouts and other variables in place, running your easy runs fast just doesn't serve a purpose other than to make it harder to recovery from and execute good workouts.
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8751 Posts
On July 29 2018 04:09 Bonham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2018 05:19 NonY wrote:
My quick update: I decided to start training for the mile now. I'm still gonna do those races (a few half marathons, a 10k) but I won't be specifically training for them. For now I'm dropping mileage a bit and making sure I get in a good VO2Max and LT every week. And then I plan to see how much mileage I can build without negatively affecting my quality days.
Whoa, far out! What made you change your distance? Do you have a goal time or race in mind? Outside of school and Diamond League/WC/Olympic-level racing, the mile is pretty niche. Really curious to follow your training and see what you can do!
I enjoy the training for mid distance more. I'm equally open to doing the 1500. I'm not gonna actually only do mile races. I haven't picked out any particular meets yet but there are a bunch in my area so I'm just planning to train for the 2019 spring and summer track season and I'll figure out the details later. I'll have to see what kind of shape I'm in and pick an appropriate meet.
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On July 29 2018 06:56 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2018 04:09 Bonham wrote:On July 28 2018 05:19 NonY wrote:
My quick update: I decided to start training for the mile now. I'm still gonna do those races (a few half marathons, a 10k) but I won't be specifically training for them. For now I'm dropping mileage a bit and making sure I get in a good VO2Max and LT every week. And then I plan to see how much mileage I can build without negatively affecting my quality days.
Whoa, far out! What made you change your distance? Do you have a goal time or race in mind? Outside of school and Diamond League/WC/Olympic-level racing, the mile is pretty niche. Really curious to follow your training and see what you can do! I enjoy the training for mid distance more. I'm equally open to doing the 1500. I'm not gonna actually only do mile races. I haven't picked out any particular meets yet but there are a bunch in my area so I'm just planning to train for the 2019 spring and summer track season and I'll figure out the details later. I'll have to see what kind of shape I'm in and pick an appropriate meet.
Open College meets or do you actually have track meets for the public where you live?
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8751 Posts
On July 29 2018 07:28 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2018 06:56 NonY wrote:On July 29 2018 04:09 Bonham wrote:On July 28 2018 05:19 NonY wrote:
My quick update: I decided to start training for the mile now. I'm still gonna do those races (a few half marathons, a 10k) but I won't be specifically training for them. For now I'm dropping mileage a bit and making sure I get in a good VO2Max and LT every week. And then I plan to see how much mileage I can build without negatively affecting my quality days.
Whoa, far out! What made you change your distance? Do you have a goal time or race in mind? Outside of school and Diamond League/WC/Olympic-level racing, the mile is pretty niche. Really curious to follow your training and see what you can do! I enjoy the training for mid distance more. I'm equally open to doing the 1500. I'm not gonna actually only do mile races. I haven't picked out any particular meets yet but there are a bunch in my area so I'm just planning to train for the 2019 spring and summer track season and I'll figure out the details later. I'll have to see what kind of shape I'm in and pick an appropriate meet. Open College meets or do you actually have track meets for the public where you live?
There are actual open meets, like Cal Berkeley has 3 of them in January-February. Ideally I'll do one of those to have an official time that can get me into a better meet later in the season.
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Mile TT done in 6:03
Went out a bit fast maybe, I had literally nothing left for the 4th lap but managed to at least hold it together for the most part, splits were around 1:27, 1:29, 1:32, 1:34
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On July 31 2018 09:56 LuckyFool wrote:
Mile TT done in 6:03
Went out a bit fast maybe, I had literally nothing left for the 4th lap but managed to at least hold it together for the most part, splits were around 1:27, 1:29, 1:32, 1:34
Attabe, LuckyFool! If those splits are accurate, I'd say you ran a very respectable race. Everyone talks a lot of sugar about negative splits, but there's this to be said in favor of their opposite: when you run a positive split, you know you had nothing left in the tank.
What was the field like? Was it a solo effort? If you raced anyone, did you grab any scalps in the last lap?
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I've been running at the Beach in fire island where my family goes for vacation and that's been very fun and fitness enhancing, with slopes and challenging and moving terrain beneath your feet. Great way for me to train as a runner and endurance athlete after being dormant/retired/lazy for far too long of a while.
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On July 31 2018 12:15 Bonham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 09:56 LuckyFool wrote:
Mile TT done in 6:03
Went out a bit fast maybe, I had literally nothing left for the 4th lap but managed to at least hold it together for the most part, splits were around 1:27, 1:29, 1:32, 1:34 Attabe, LuckyFool! If those splits are accurate, I'd say you ran a very respectable race. Everyone talks a lot of sugar about negative splits, but there's this to be said in favor of their opposite: when you run a positive split, you know you had nothing left in the tank. What was the field like? Was it a solo effort? If you raced anyone, did you grab any scalps in the last lap?
Solo effort, mainly to judge where my current fitness is for those workout paces L_Master was recommending a couple days ago 
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On July 31 2018 12:15 Bonham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 09:56 LuckyFool wrote:
Mile TT done in 6:03
Went out a bit fast maybe, I had literally nothing left for the 4th lap but managed to at least hold it together for the most part, splits were around 1:27, 1:29, 1:32, 1:34 Attabe, LuckyFool! If those splits are accurate, I'd say you ran a very respectable race. Everyone talks a lot of sugar about negative splits, but there's this to be said in favor of their opposite: when you run a positive split, you know you had nothing left in the tank. What was the field like? Was it a solo effort? If you raced anyone, did you grab any scalps in the last lap?
I agree with Bonham. Those split's aren't "ideal" pacing, but they aren't way off either. Yea, maybe you gave away 5s over an optimum race, but it wasn't like you did 78, 98, 98, 96 or something. As he said, also the kind of effort you know you left nothing in the tank for. Good effort!
Makes it clear you're not an anaerobic monster, I'd say that's a pretty typical mile time for a guy who is in 20:xx range.
I would also say that I think you've got a decent shot of running sub 20, and almost a certain chance of it if you also drop 5-10 of those pounds you were talking about having just gained.
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I'm pretty confident you'll be fine with the 800s (they will hurt though) and the longer, aerobic workout.
The k repeats might be a bit too hard, but let's see how the first one feels and adjust from there.
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Feck.
Crash today in Crit race. Smashed into a brick wall with my left side going about 40kph. All things considered feeling pretty fortunate, no breaks or serious injuries...just some deep bruising. Will be a painful next week but should be able to at least get on the training hopefully tomorrow and at worst by weekend.
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On August 01 2018 12:32 L_Master wrote:
Feck.
Crash today in Crit race. Smashed into a brick wall with my left side going about 40kph. All things considered feeling pretty fortunate, no breaks or serious injuries...just some deep bruising. Will be a painful next week but should be able to at least get on the training hopefully tomorrow and at worst by weekend.
Glad to hear the damage isn't too serious. What caused the crash? Was it your fault or someone else's? Reminds me of those few times when I've gone 50 kph+ on my bike going downhill or whatnot. When that happens I always find myself thinking, "you know, if I sneezed right now, I would lose an awful lot of skin."
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On August 02 2018 02:38 Bonham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2018 12:32 L_Master wrote:
Feck.
Crash today in Crit race. Smashed into a brick wall with my left side going about 40kph. All things considered feeling pretty fortunate, no breaks or serious injuries...just some deep bruising. Will be a painful next week but should be able to at least get on the training hopefully tomorrow and at worst by weekend. Glad to hear the damage isn't too serious. What caused the crash? Was it your fault or someone else's? Reminds me of those few times when I've gone 50 kph+ on my bike going downhill or whatnot. When that happens I always find myself thinking, "you know, if I sneezed right now, I would lose an awful lot of skin."
Guy 5 or 6 wheels up took a bad line or hit something, ended up going wide towards the wall, clipped it and causes a pile-up. Video coming later.
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EPT
