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On January 09 2018 02:55 JimmiC wrote:
I think this is what twinkle toes point was. What is people expectations. If it he will be a top 10 player id say you are right it is highly unlikely he will get there.
If it is fringe allstar i think he will likely get there (his d alone is improving tons since butler showed up)
So when people are calling him bad and a wasre is it because they think hes actually bad, as in not worth a starter spot? Or bad as in wont be a superstar?
The closest comparable star that I can find for Wiggins' box score numbers is Klay Thompson, who is notorious for NOT stuffing the stat sheet and having much lower stats on advanced defensive metrics versus his defensive reputation. The difference is that Thompson makes up for his lack of box score stuffing with really good shooting.
I think he can still become an Andre Iguodala or Richard Jefferson type of player on a contender. However, the people preaching patience should also realize that many NBA players are one-and-done nowadays. He is not alone in his youth and his growth is agonizingly slow for such a hyped player.
His hustle stats are pretty low for a player whose game is based on athleticism. I was trying to compare his rebounding rates with other players and came up mostly with players who take more 3-pt shots than 2s.
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For an example of the kind of improvement expected of a top prospect in his early 20s... just check out Tyus Jones.
the Minnesota defense is night-and-day different since Teague got hurt and Jones is playing full time minutes.
and Jones is way way better than he was last year.
On January 09 2018 06:58 MassHysteria wrote:8D From Woj on Trade Deadline: Show nested quote +Two years ago this week, the Denver Nuggets fetched two first-round picks to send modestly talented center Timofey Mozgov to the Cleveland Cavaliers. It is unlikely the Clippers will get that for their All-NBA center, largely because the dynamics of trading picks for players has changed. Crazy to think how that was just 2 years ago. And sounds so ridiculous now.
it seems like the NBA having its own developmental league has changed the value of draft picks.
its all about "draft and develop".
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what is with "Hickory" on the Indiana Pacers uniforms?
pacers look night-and-day different with Oladipo back.
On January 09 2018 08:47 JimmiC wrote:
East winning that many games is also meaningless.
re ductio ad absurdum.
every NBA game has meaning.
which is why NBA.com publishes this blurb every week.
On January 09 2018 08:47 JimmiC wrote:
Sentence 3: Are you insinuating that there for Taj is better then Ingram?
don't make up stuff. if i didn't say it don't start claiming i said it. i copy-pasted the "+/- heroes and losers" from NBA.com.
source provided in my previous post.
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On January 08 2018 18:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2018 13:44 BlackJack wrote:
Vince Carter was an absolute phenom in the early 2000s. Rookie of the Year, Slam Dunk champion. He was everywhere, Nike commercials, Gatorade commercials, Sports Illustrated covers. Everybody was wearing his jersey. He definitely put Toronto on the map. I'm not sure what exactly DeRozan has done to surpass that but congrats I guess. Individual success and fame, yes VC might well be the very best Raptor. But I think the point of the article is that DD has done more for the success of the team than any other Raptor has. And if he stays as a Raptor in his prime, with help from Lowry and some key acquisitions, the Raptors may find meaningful success soon.
"May find meaningful success soon" should not even enter into the argument of who the most notable player is now. The question is if DeRozan retired tomorrow would he go down as the greatest Raptor ever? Granted, we're comparing 2 different things - flashiness, fame, fandom, vs team success, but Raptors haven't been THAT successful. They've won a few playoffs series, but their overall playoff record is 17-24 with DeRozan. That's about as successful as Melo's Nuggets at this point. If it's me I'd take exceptional flashiness over mediocre success.
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2nd best raptor moment ever.
the building was shaking.
+ Show Spoiler +
Oladipo > Derozan.
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On January 09 2018 09:27 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2018 18:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On January 08 2018 13:44 BlackJack wrote:
Vince Carter was an absolute phenom in the early 2000s. Rookie of the Year, Slam Dunk champion. He was everywhere, Nike commercials, Gatorade commercials, Sports Illustrated covers. Everybody was wearing his jersey. He definitely put Toronto on the map. I'm not sure what exactly DeRozan has done to surpass that but congrats I guess. Individual success and fame, yes VC might well be the very best Raptor. But I think the point of the article is that DD has done more for the success of the team than any other Raptor has. And if he stays as a Raptor in his prime, with help from Lowry and some key acquisitions, the Raptors may find meaningful success soon. "May find meaningful success soon" should not even enter into the argument of who the most notable player is now. The question is if DeRozan retired tomorrow would he go down as the greatest Raptor ever? Granted, we're comparing 2 different things - flashiness, fame, fandom, vs team success, but Raptors haven't been THAT successful. They've won a few playoffs series, but their overall playoff record is 17-24 with DeRozan. That's about as successful as Melo's Nuggets at this point. If it's me I'd take exceptional flashiness over mediocre success.
Yes, and I didnt mean to include "May find meaningful success soon" as a factor in DD's greatness in comparison to VC. So essentially, we are comparing VC's entire Raptor career vs. DD's until now... so who's better?
If it boils down to flashiness vs. mediocre success, then we have to agree to disagree what we mean by mediocre and greatest.
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VC went to his college graduation ceremony and barely made it in time to the most important game in Raptors history.
Chris Childs the "blood and guts" leader of that Raptor squad would not back up Carter's choice that day.
'nuff said.
Carter considered that making it into the 2nd round was "going deep into the playoffs". Its no surprise that some 17 years later VC has zero rings to his name and has never been to an NBA final.
has VC been to a conference finals?
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This Minnesota starting lineup jones//butler//wig//taj//kat has now totally mangled 4 of its last 6 opponents in the 1st quarter.
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On January 09 2018 09:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
has VC been to a conference finals?
2009/2010 with Orlando.
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Spencer Dinwiddie is damn good.
Lowry looked badly hurt and had to be carried off the floor. Lowry is quoted as saying he is headed in for x-rays "on my ass".
i got no idea how Teague holds on to his starting job the way Tyus Jones is playing.
https://streamable.com/13g6y
Here is the play that got Isaiah Thomas ejected tonight. The Cavaliers lost their composure.
https://streamable.com/3lqfx
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On January 09 2018 07:12 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2018 06:51 Ace wrote:On January 08 2018 22:52 Twinkle Toes wrote:On January 08 2018 22:34 Ace wrote:On January 08 2018 13:11 Twinkle Toes wrote:On January 08 2018 05:31 A3th3r wrote:
ya but Wiggins is like 21 years old, I hardly think he would be a potential game changer at that age. Butler is the reason the T-Wolves are winning games and are out of the pit of despair a.k.a. the wild-card playoff race that they probably will be in next year This is what Wiggin's hater miss. Sure he might have been overvalued on draft night, but he is a good player with a lot of upside. 4 years in and you're still talking upside. You are easily duped. Serious questions. I'm not a Wolves fan at all, and I'd be lucky to watch a Wolves game in a season, even in the playoffs unless vs. Spurs or Mavs or Kobe-Lakers. I speak of "upside" blindly, mostly based on the stray Wiggins highlighs. 1. Is he bad according to how high he got drafted? 2. Is he bad for his age/years in the league compared to contemporaries? 3. Is he hopelessly bad, like there is no chance he can improve and be good at all? If you could explain why, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. All 3 Do you mind explaining why? Thanks
Wiggins failed as a lead guard.
He failed as the lead scorer.
He is a terrible facilitator. Terrible defender. Terrible rebounder. Terrible scorer.
He has 0 portability. You can't just put Wiggins with other good players and get things to work.
The nonsense by guys like JimmiC or whatever his name is is that they don't look at growth curves. Wiggins growth is extremely bad. As in 4 years in some of your skill sets should translate to even the basic boxscore. The fact he believes anyone asked him to be a "1 dimensional scorer" shows how easily duped he is.
But give yourself this test. Wiggins came in the 2014 draft: Embiid, Aaron Gordon, Jabari, Payton, Lavine, Saric, Julius Randle, Gary Harris, TJ Warren, Capela, Nurkic and Jokic. All drafted that year. How many of these guys can you say for sure Wiggins is comfortably better than? Imo Parker, Randle, and maybe Saric are the only 3 that Wiggins is arguably more valuable than. Other than that every single of these guys blow him out of the water. Again - this is Year 4. Look at the growth curve. Let the sheep rant on and on about his age while you watch the better players that make actual leaps from Wiggins' draft class. He's garbage.
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Wolves just trashed Cavs 127-99, lead was up 41 at one point.
Wiggins had 25 out of 9-19/5-6/2-6... Notwithstanding the harsh words about his growth curve, would this be a good number for Wiggins? If what Ace says is true, then I'd be watching more Wolves games from now on.
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Dwane Casey: "Spencer Dinwiddie is playing like a big time point guard.. his contract is the bargain of the league".
and lo and behold he has got a big time Real Plus Minus. Only PGs Harden, Curry and Westbrook have a better Real Plus Minus.
so that means he has a better Real Plus Minus than Kyle Lowry.
last few games Brooklyn has...
lost to the Celtics by 3 in a game that was within 5 with 2 minutes left and within 2 with 18 seconds left.
beat Orlando.
beat Minnesota.
lost to teh Celtics in a game that went down to the last possession.
lost to the Raptors in overtime by 1 on a last possession play.
the Brooklyn Nets are playing very well and Spencer Dinwiddie is making a believer out of me.
On January 09 2018 13:25 Ace wrote:
But give yourself this test. Wiggins came in the 2014 draft: Embiid, Aaron Gordon, Jabari, Payton, Lavine, Saric, Julius Randle, Gary Harris, TJ Warren, Capela, Nurkic and Jokic. All drafted that year. How many of these guys can you say for sure Wiggins is comfortably better than? Imo Parker, Randle, and maybe Saric are the only 3 that Wiggins is arguably more valuable than. Other than that every single of these guys blow him out of the water. Again - this is Year 4. Look at the growth curve. Let the sheep rant on and on about his age while you watch the better players that make actual leaps from Wiggins' draft class. He's garbage.
you forgot about Spencer Dinwiddie. the guy has been fucking awesome this year and was part of the 2014 draft.
Dinwiddie > Wiggins.
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Yes let's wait 9 years to see if Wiggins is good. Lol you are a mark through and through.
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EPT
