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On December 21 2017 00:37 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2017 00:32 evilfatsh1t wrote:On December 21 2017 00:23 Rebs wrote:On December 21 2017 00:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:On December 21 2017 00:02 Rebs wrote:On December 20 2017 17:57 Pandemona wrote:
But still that isn't fact Mourinho hasn't spent alot either i concede but he also won alot without spending it. Show me Pep winning champions league without Messi Xavi or Iniesta :D
How much did Pep spend on Xavi, Iniesta and Messi ? There are plenty of ways to discredit Mou's achievments aswell but doing that would make one just as bad as you. Here is an example of the kind of thing you are doing. See spoiler. + Show Spoiler +
Mou is great at making average teams good at winning against Monaco, fucking Monaco. In what is widely considered the weakest CL season. Also United got Cheated out of the Porto tie. Pretty sure Carvalho tore of enough knickers and shirts to clothe an african village for Charity.
For anyone who remembers, it was dirty and it was ugly. Just like Mou's philosophy about football in general.
but he lets all forget that and stare at the travesty that was Barca - Chelsea. Thats the real important one.
Well played bravo, he da best.
pep discovering great players at his club doesnt make him a great manager. a great scout or coach maybe, but your argument doesnt change the fact that he has only managed world class players and employs a style that can only be pulled off by such players. a very common characteristic in management in any industry is adaptability and pep has zero. in fact in whichever club he goes to the club and its players have to adapt to him and if you cant then youre cut. hes good at what he does when hes allowed to do it, but thats exactly why he is yet to prove himself as one of the greatest. hes never been in a situation where he wasnt allowed the freedom he requires That's a farcical argument at best. No one is arguing he doesnt need good players to play the way he plays. but he is also taken good players and made them great players. Unless you think Raheem Sterling was the best winger in the league coming into this season ? Dude's passing was as bad (if not worse) than Lukaku. By your logic Big Sam best manager of all time, followed closely by Claudio Ranieri. I am not sure what adaptability in other industries has to do with this situation, management in industry is quite different form managing a sports team. Also when your way of doing things is producing the best results, I see no reason to adapt. claudio ranieri is a manager i would definitely give special mention to. to do what he did with the kind of club he was at, theres no denial there was moments of genius from top to bottom at leicester city the entire season. and no one isnt saying hes a good coach or scout. thats not of a manager though so im not sure why youre reinforcing those points. again, pep has always had great players and massive resources at his disposal. also if you dont think management in a sports team requires adaptability then theres no point even discussing this any further. just shows you have zero clue what management even is and you have no idea what youre talking about I didnt say it didnt require adaptability. Not sure where you got that from. It shows you have zero reading skills. I said adaptability in other industries has nothing to do with the needs of a football team. You also talk as if you have a clue as to whether there is no adapting from this City side. Adapting doesnt have to be overt, it can be subtle. And if you dont know this then you have zero clue of what management even is and you have no idea what you are talking about. Adapting doesnt mean overturning everything you do inside it. Adapting means adjusting to the needs of a situation. The range of flexibility is upto the person who is in charge. Again if you dont know this then you have zero clue of what management even is and you have no idea what you are talking about. Finally coaching a football team is part of being a "football" manager. Where did this distinction suddenly pop up from. You cant be a bad coach or a bad scout and be a good "football"manager. As for no one is saying it. Nearly half of the discussion has been on how teams are coached to play so I dont know who you mean by no one. Just you is not no one. + Show Spoiler +Dont regurgitate bookish bullshit at me bro. I didnt say anything about your knowledge or lack thereoff. Arguments can be criticized but dont get personal. I will tear you to your first world, dont know shit about the world entitled ass to shreds and it will be embarrassing.. the second you start directing your argument at my person rather than my argument you are a child arguing with a man.
asking what adaptability in other industries has to do with football is the equivalent of asking how adaptability is relevant in general. management in any industry, football included, requires adaptability period. not that difficult of a sentence to understand mate.
explain to me what strict conditions pep had to work under which forced him to completely adjust his game. he took cruyffs base philosophy at la masia and refined it with the players he had at barca. then he went to bayern, splashed money and turned a treble winning side into a barca wannabe team when the players werent as well suited to the style. then he got completely wasted in europe and moved to city and oh what a shocker, he splashes cash and tries to turn city into an english barca also. like pande pointed out, teams dont fare too well with that kind of style without a deep enough squad and so they tanked last season. instead of adapting his style to fare better in the league better he dips his hands into city's infinite resources to deepen his squad. of course theres nothing wrong using resources that are available to you, but youre kidding if you think spending a couple hundred mil to get the best players to pull off your style makes you an all time great. arsenal was arguably englands most barca like team for a long time, and if you put pep there to replace wenger id say arsenal would still be without a title.
also yes, coaching is part of managing. you cant be a bad coach and be a good manager but you can be a good coach and be a bad manager. im not saying pep is particularly bad, but this is a discussion of whether hes the "greatest" like some of you are claiming. really i dont see how anyone could compare pep to saf in terms of managerial ability. if were talking about managers that are currently active only, then mou is still his rival and mou has made a name for himself with worse teams and funds.
every post you make you seem to think youre smarter than everyone else and you can destroy arguments with your aggression, arrogance and keyboard warrior skills. you need to calm down and take a look at yourself man, its getting embarrassing. heck, you may even be correct most of the time and could rightly think youre smarter than the rest, but if you think that im the child arguing with the man then you are solely mistaken rofl. this may be an anonymous forum but with the way you discuss your points, no one is thinking highly of you even when you are correct.
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Hmm isn't Ampadu a DM? Why is conte playing him in defence. Good to see him play though.
Batman is still rubbish it seems.
I remember when I first saw kenedy in his debut, he was a fearless kid amongst the washed up veterans in mourinho's stale squad. Quick and very good dribbling. He dared to attack and run at defences. It's sad that conte keeps putting him in left wing back. Just because the player is a left footed winger doesn't mean he excels in wing back. More so when the player's strength lies in his flair and dribbling, rather than physique and power like moses. Obviously kenedy will not shine because he is not a wingback at all. Should put him in Pedro's or willian position...
That said my observation of him is that he has all the skills of an attacker, but lacks the brain of a top player. He should really leave for other leagues and prove or reinvent himself.
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Haha this topic is still going on, nice. I think I'm fine knowing a lot of pundits/experts agree Pep is probably the best coach right now.
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On December 21 2017 15:28 WillyWanker wrote:
Haha this topic is still going on, nice. I think I'm fine knowing a lot of pundits/experts agree Pep is probably the best coach right now.
But its the same experts/pundits who criticized him at Bayern or last year. :p so they are all bandwagon fans!
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Pundits in England don't call him the best same with ex pros on the English screen so you can't use that argument Willy. I can link you Paul Merson who says what he is doing now is great, but he hasn't won anything yet nor has he cemented a legacy which is what a good coach does. HOWEVER, he can still do that and if he does hats off to him!
On December 21 2017 11:35 DucK- wrote:
Hmm isn't Ampadu a DM? Why is conte playing him in defence. Good to see him play though.
Batman is still rubbish it seems.
I remember when I first saw kenedy in his debut, he was a fearless kid amongst the washed up veterans in mourinho's stale squad. Quick and very good dribbling. He dared to attack and run at defences. It's sad that conte keeps putting him in left wing back. Just because the player is a left footed winger doesn't mean he excels in wing back. More so when the player's strength lies in his flair and dribbling, rather than physique and power like moses. Obviously kenedy will not shine because he is not a wingback at all. Should put him in Pedro's or willian position...
That said my observation of him is that he has all the skills of an attacker, but lacks the brain of a top player. He should really leave for other leagues and prove or reinvent himself.
He is a centre back yeah but obviously being 17 they normally and rightfully so play defensive midfield when they play. Was a huge show of face to play him centre, centre back and hats off to him because he was our best player. Minus the opening tackle in 90 seconds when he killed Defoe, he did nothing wrong as well.
What happened in this game i have no idea, they went in at half time after dominating the game playing great football to coming out and not being able to pass it 3 yards and get dominated back. Was like Conte said, go out there, do nothing the game is over boys. Then to have to use Hazard Morata Bakayoko was also embarrassing.
Kennedy did show signs of that though last night when he tried to flick the ball over the defenders head and get body checked when he tried to go round him in which imo was a clear penalty, but i know what you mean. Playing him further upfield would be where i would play him too. He is only 21 though.
On December 21 2017 07:57 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2017 07:33 Pandemona wrote:
So he made them better and won the treble the first time in there history? He did amazing with that side and after he left it went to shit and was awful. Big Rafa couldn't even pick up the pieces! Pep did the opposite to Bayern whilst spending more in an even easier league. Pep was at Bayern for three seasons, and spent £184m.. Mourinho was at Chelsea during two of those same seasons, and spent £319m. During his two seasons at Inter, Jose spent £139m. You make it sound like he was Eddie Howe taking over a bankrupt Bournemouth with a 17 point penalty in League Two.
No i make it sound like he spent small numbers to make a squad that dominated not only in his domestic league but in Europe by winning the holy grail. He had a very hard run that year too. Chelsea RO8, Barca Semi, Bayern Final. Yet he spent little, not major little no but to a big club who wins that competition it isn't that much no and compared to Bayern who were a treble winning side when Pep rolled up, spend another £184 million and makes them "result wise" worst. Mourinho in first Chelsea period made a fantastic side, we dominated domestically when our league was the best in Europe too as you know, we won the league by 22 points with the most ever points until now  We also would have done well in the champions league if we didn't get cucked by referees! Ghost goal anyone?!
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What do you think about Ligue1 and Bundesliga? I find them very boring because Bayern and PSG are too good. It would be a very different story if BvB didn't sell all top players 2013+...
"Bayern vs Dortmund" is not a top game anymore compared to few years ago.
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On December 21 2017 19:22 Dingodile wrote:
What do you think about Ligue1 and Bundesliga? I find them very boring because Bayern and PSG are too good. It would be a very different story if BvB didn't sell all top players 2013+...
"Bayern vs Dortmund" is not a top game anymore compared to few years ago.
It is, Bayern win the title every year and will continue to do so until they either hang on to a shitty coach longer or the rest of the league stops selling them every player that shows an ounce of promise.
Hoffenheim was great last year, sold Bayern two key players and embarrassed themselves in Europe, but today they sold them another (less important) player and will likely sell them their (very important) coach in summer.
I thought the miserable European performance was going to lift the fog and end the complacency with being talent development for Bayern, but it doesn't look like it.
That said everything else is still entertaining, but there is no way someone that hasn't always been interested in the Bundesliga will find a way to get into it with how overpowering the marketing of the PL is.
I think Ligue 1 has the same problem, except that instead of a traditional powerhouse it is oil money.
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Player-caretaker-manager hype!
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Bergkamp, Spijkerman and Keizer got sacked from Ajax. Big news! It isn't totally unexpected, but the exact moment is odd seeing as Ajax just beat PSV and AZ. Thrown out of the cup last night though by FC Twente.
I'm liking the news though. The circumstances in which Keizer (a relative nobody with zero experience managing a big club) was hired were pretty bad, as well as letting go of Bosz who did great last year with the Europa League final. Lots of Ajax fans blame Bergkamp for all the bad stuff happening the last couple of years. Keizer definitely wasn't experienced enough which showed in a lot of questionable decisions and lack of real direction. By December he still doesn't really have an idea of how he wants to play and there's simply too many line-up changes.
English source:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/5189174/arsenal-news-ajax-marc-overmars-dennis-bergkamp-sacked/
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On December 21 2017 17:47 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2017 07:57 city42 wrote:On December 21 2017 07:33 Pandemona wrote:
So he made them better and won the treble the first time in there history? He did amazing with that side and after he left it went to shit and was awful. Big Rafa couldn't even pick up the pieces! Pep did the opposite to Bayern whilst spending more in an even easier league. Pep was at Bayern for three seasons, and spent £184m.. Mourinho was at Chelsea during two of those same seasons, and spent £319m. During his two seasons at Inter, Jose spent £139m. You make it sound like he was Eddie Howe taking over a bankrupt Bournemouth with a 17 point penalty in League Two. No i make it sound like he spent small numbers to make a squad that dominated not only in his domestic league but in Europe by winning the holy grail. He had a very hard run that year too. Chelsea RO8, Barca Semi, Bayern Final. Yet he spent little, not major little no but to a big club who wins that competition it isn't that much no and compared to Bayern who were a treble winning side when Pep rolled up, spend another £184 million and makes them "result wise" worst. Mourinho in first Chelsea period made a fantastic side, we dominated domestically when our league was the best in Europe too as you know, we won the league by 22 points with the most ever points until now We also would have done well in the champions league if we didn't get cucked by referees! Ghost goal anyone?!
You're completely missing my point. I'm not trying to downplay Mourinho's achievements as a manager; my issue is this bizarre image being painted of him as David fighting against Goliath.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Wait, Van Der Sar is the CEO, Overmars director of football, Berkgamp was the coach. Wow talk about just throwing legends at a club and giving them job roles lol.
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To be fair Overmars earned his position by being really damn good at his job at Go Ahead before going to ajax. The others I'm not so sure.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On December 22 2017 00:25 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2017 17:47 Pandemona wrote:On December 21 2017 07:57 city42 wrote:On December 21 2017 07:33 Pandemona wrote:
So he made them better and won the treble the first time in there history? He did amazing with that side and after he left it went to shit and was awful. Big Rafa couldn't even pick up the pieces! Pep did the opposite to Bayern whilst spending more in an even easier league. Pep was at Bayern for three seasons, and spent £184m.. Mourinho was at Chelsea during two of those same seasons, and spent £319m. During his two seasons at Inter, Jose spent £139m. You make it sound like he was Eddie Howe taking over a bankrupt Bournemouth with a 17 point penalty in League Two. No i make it sound like he spent small numbers to make a squad that dominated not only in his domestic league but in Europe by winning the holy grail. He had a very hard run that year too. Chelsea RO8, Barca Semi, Bayern Final. Yet he spent little, not major little no but to a big club who wins that competition it isn't that much no and compared to Bayern who were a treble winning side when Pep rolled up, spend another £184 million and makes them "result wise" worst. Mourinho in first Chelsea period made a fantastic side, we dominated domestically when our league was the best in Europe too as you know, we won the league by 22 points with the most ever points until now We also would have done well in the champions league if we didn't get cucked by referees! Ghost goal anyone?! You're completely missing my point. I'm not trying to downplay Mourinho's achievements as a manager; my issue is this bizarre image being painted of him as David fighting against Goliath.
Oh yeah they weren't no weak team, but they were at best only a top "10" side in European competitions, no where near being able to go and beat european veteran teams like Bayern/Barca/Chelsea on their way with the likes of Muntari! But i still think it was a great achievement to win so much with them in a tough Italian era all be it Juventus were not around because of match fixing scandal. Still did good for me their, better than say winning it with the 3 best players of our generation xD
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On December 22 2017 01:11 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2017 00:25 city42 wrote:On December 21 2017 17:47 Pandemona wrote:On December 21 2017 07:57 city42 wrote:On December 21 2017 07:33 Pandemona wrote:
So he made them better and won the treble the first time in there history? He did amazing with that side and after he left it went to shit and was awful. Big Rafa couldn't even pick up the pieces! Pep did the opposite to Bayern whilst spending more in an even easier league. Pep was at Bayern for three seasons, and spent £184m.. Mourinho was at Chelsea during two of those same seasons, and spent £319m. During his two seasons at Inter, Jose spent £139m. You make it sound like he was Eddie Howe taking over a bankrupt Bournemouth with a 17 point penalty in League Two. No i make it sound like he spent small numbers to make a squad that dominated not only in his domestic league but in Europe by winning the holy grail. He had a very hard run that year too. Chelsea RO8, Barca Semi, Bayern Final. Yet he spent little, not major little no but to a big club who wins that competition it isn't that much no and compared to Bayern who were a treble winning side when Pep rolled up, spend another £184 million and makes them "result wise" worst. Mourinho in first Chelsea period made a fantastic side, we dominated domestically when our league was the best in Europe too as you know, we won the league by 22 points with the most ever points until now We also would have done well in the champions league if we didn't get cucked by referees! Ghost goal anyone?! You're completely missing my point. I'm not trying to downplay Mourinho's achievements as a manager; my issue is this bizarre image being painted of him as David fighting against Goliath. Oh yeah they weren't no weak team, but they were at best only a top "10" side in European competitions, no where near being able to go and beat european veteran teams like Bayern/Barca/Chelsea on their way with the likes of Muntari! But i still think it was a great achievement to win so much with them in a tough Italian era all be it Juventus were not around because of match fixing scandal. Still did good for me their, better than say winning it with the 3 best players of our generation xD
This would be a perfect post to end this nonsense on, because it shows once again that Mourinho fans and defenders have such a massive inferiority complex that they cannot enjoy his accomplishments without simultaneously trying to bash Pep.
e: Also brave of you to claim that Ronaldo is infact not one of the best 3 players of our generation =)
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Thats also my biggest complaint about pep. I dont want to see that a coach has 23 worldclass players. Pep loves that. I want to see them play and not sitting at the bench.
How do you feel when Robben, Boateng, Ribery, Hummels, Martinez, Thiago are sitting at the bench. I dont like it, then I prefer to see them at other team. 11-13 worldclass players are enough, not 23. we need those quality on the field, not at bench.
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Norway28798 Posts
That's a problem with money in top clubs, not with particular managers. All the teams that want to compete in all the competitions need 20 world class players and all the managers that manage those teams want full coverage.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Indeed i agree it is a problem for clubs who can afford to do so and somehow keep these players happy but it does hinder national sides for sure and play growth period.
13 world class players plus 5 up and comers and then some kids is what i would like, everyone loves seeing kids come through academy and playing because they really love the club. Ask a City fan im sure they would all be gushing over Foden and that centre back which i forget his name.
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EPT
