EPTSo good human management (except with super egos), great tactician, beautiful football, titles. What more do you need?
2017 - 2018 Football Thread - Page 151
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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
So good human management (except with super egos), great tactician, beautiful football, titles. What more do you need? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28873 Posts
On December 18 2017 23:16 Pandemona wrote: Conte took a side who finished 10th.....and was poor. Tier 3 according to Willy....and then won title. Pep took a side over who had finished no lower than 3rd in the last decade. Mourinho took a side over who finished 5th and only won an FA cup in years and years. He had one failure at Chelsea for half a season and Pep also had half a season failure, see the Rebs post showing the mighty man city in 6th position after 21 games etc. Everyone saying Pep best in world for what? Tell me why he is the best in the world? For winning 16 games in a row in premier league? For winning champions league 3 times with Messi Xavi Iniesta in their primes? For "dominating" bundesliga with Bayern Munich? It's how they win dude, not just that they win. No other teams ever dominate games the way Pep's teams do. That's how you get to 16 in a row; by being so dominant that not even the volatility of football ends up making any difference. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On December 18 2017 23:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: Pep has managed three teams. The first Barcelona team was the most dominant team in the modern era of football. Bayern he did fairly well in, but seeing how he followed a fantastic treble season he didn't look too impressive. Now second season in City and it looks like he's about to build the most dominant team in the modern era of football - again. Disputing Pep's greatness is just stupidly stubborn. I've never even been a fan really (I've cheered for mourinho in every mou vs pep battle ever), while his teams are immensely impressive, I thought his old barcelona was boring to watch. Partially because the result was such a given though but also partially because I remember them as being so good at controlling the ball that if they got a lead, they could defend with possession and then it just wasn't exciting. I enjoyed watching barcelona when they had to score, but if they took the lead, that was it. No way were they losing then. And out of all the top 6 teams in the PL, City is the one I dislike the most, the one I want to fail. But every piece of evidence points towards that his tactics, when given enough time and money, create the most successful and dominant teams the world has ever seen. You really have to be deliberately blind not to see this. Mourinho seems better at making underdog teams winners. I don't think Pep could've done what he did with Porto, I don't think Pep could've made Greece win the EC, I don't think he could have made Leicester win the league. But nobody else could have created his Barcelona and nobody else could have created this City. What has he created? A team that plays good footy and about to win one league title (maybe few more titles) but you don't create a 1 season team and be dubbed dominate/best ever. If this is 2 years down the line then yes, that Barca team wasn't dubbed greatest ever after the first champs league and la liga title was it. That is the problem i have, people saying he is the best cuz of what he has done in 18 months, which is nothing. He hasn't achieved anything yet, he would be the first person to tell you this. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28873 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Their 16 win streak, the games building up to Yanited they were scoring late winners vs awful teams. Southampton spanked 3-1 at home by Lesta took City to the brink, they got taken to the brink by Huddersfield, same team Chelsea swept aside and Spurs did. They struggled and then beat Yanited 2-1 thanks to Lukaku being a pile of crap xD Yes they won those games, but they haven't walked all 16 of those games, far from it. They walked about 10 of them. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28873 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28873 Posts
I'm not saying they will for sure go undefeated. But I am saying I've never seen a more dominant team in the premier league, and seeing as how this is a season where the top competitors are all showing up, where all the top teams have top managers and reasonably well developed teams, it's incredibly impressive. You don't have to consider Pep the world's greatest manager. I'm not sure I do either, not by all metrics. My own favorite is Nils Arne Eggen anyway. And I don't mind SAF being considered greater. But you gotta acknowledge how good they are playing and you gotta acknowledge that Pep deserves a lot of credit for it. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4367 Posts
On December 19 2017 01:15 Pandemona wrote: Haha well i can't wait to be proved wrong when City win every game and point on offer for the next year or two? Lol you are mad if you think that xD Their 16 win streak, the games building up to Yanited they were scoring late winners vs awful teams. Southampton spanked 3-1 at home by Lesta took City to the brink, they got taken to the brink by Huddersfield, same team Chelsea swept aside and Spurs did. They struggled and then beat Yanited 2-1 thanks to Lukaku being a pile of crap xD Yes they won those games, but they haven't walked all 16 of those games, far from it. They walked about 10 of them. Agreed. This is what most people seem to forget about. From those 16 in a row, some were nothing close to dominant performances by city. Had that game with the 98 minute goal finish when it should, the entire morale for City would be different (and no 16 in a row, at least for now). The United game as well. They played better for 40 minutes, a lot better....but got punched for 20 plus minutes before the game got devided again. Plus they scored the second on a complete fluke while United missed more than one opportunity when it was 1-1. Please note that I always loved to see Pep teams play and I'm very grateful to have had the opportunity to watch that Barça team play or City play the way they did against Tottenham.....but don't pretend every City game this season went like the one against tottenham. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On December 20 2017 07:31 KobraKay wrote: Agreed. This is what most people seem to forget about. From those 16 in a row, some were nothing close to dominant performances by city. Had that game with the 98 minute goal finish when it should, the entire morale for City would be different (and no 16 in a row, at least for now). The United game as well. They played better for 40 minutes, a lot better....but got punched for 20 plus minutes before the game got devided again. Plus they scored the second on a complete fluke while United missed more than one opportunity when it was 1-1. Please note that I always loved to see Pep teams play and I'm very grateful to have had the opportunity to watch that Barça team play or City play the way they did against Tottenham.....but don't pretend every City game this season went like the one against tottenham. The point he was highlighting was that even with games that they squee'ed through they were never in danger of losing. Secondly those games are the exception not the rule or even common. It is playing to win by being superior. Contrast that with more pragmatic styles that rely on the opponents weaknesses, mistakes and your teams ability to punish them while ensuring that you play first not to lose I think I have my choice of what is harder to do and certainly more enjoyable to watch. Mind you the latter the Germans and Italians (and even Urugayans had been doing since time immemorial) so there is nothing new about that. Relatively speaking anyway. The way it is executed has certainly evolved. A streak like this is not normal and will not happen all the time. That he is able to do it every so often more than others is something to be mentioned, regardless of how many caveats you want to throw at it. Every kind of major success has an element of luck and near misses that get avoided. All of them. We dont discredit others when that happens so no need to do it here either. As for the United game, I dont know what you were watching but they were good for all of the goals they scored and all teams will have spells and rally. And finally its not like Man United are your average PL team, they are also a strong team and will have their moments. But there is no doubt in the minds of anyone with sense and most Pundits that the deserts were just. The tilted sarcasm from Pande you are agreeing with is an argument in bad faith at best. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4179 Posts
On December 18 2017 23:36 WillyWanker wrote: I think he's the best, but not everyone has to agree. But I think everyone should agree that he's an amazing coach at least. So for me, he's the best because he's a master tactician, his teams dominate 95% of the games (and probably 80% of the games against tier 1 teams) and so rarely deserves to lose a game when he does lose them. He advocates for team effort rather than individual talent so when he leaves a club, the team often can still perform at a very high level. He doesn't hesitate to make big decisions like changing a player at half time, or benching/getting rid of superstars (Henry, Ibra, Touré, etc.) making the team stronger in the process. He transforms players (Iniesta wasn't that good before Pep, Pedro definitely didn't look like a tier 1 player, hell Sterling looks like a good footballer now!), and imagines new positions as well (Lahm in the midfield, Messi at false 9, De Bruyne + Silva as all-around midfielders)... and he wins. First team to get a treble, most wins in a row in 3 of the 4 biggest leagues, record points, record goals, record possession, record... So good human management (except with super egos), great tactician, beautiful football, titles. What more do you need? Not convinced with Pep's Barca and Bayern years. Barca he had one of the best squads ever and don't even argue winning the Bundesliga with Bayern. But this year's City is really something else and I'm definitely impressed. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
compare that to saf who beat teams with like 7 defenders or with the likes of cleverley and darren gibson in his midfield. he did that for 2 entire generations of players also. mou is similar to fergie in that he manages to win with what he has, but mou's teams have nowhere near the longetivity saf's teams had. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On December 20 2017 13:52 evilfatsh1t wrote: mou is similar to fergie in that he manages to win with what he has, but mou's teams have nowhere near the longetivity saf's teams had. Mourinho has spent an almost incomprehensible amount of money on players in the last decade. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4179 Posts
Obviously you can't really compare player prices then and now but Sir Alex probably has by far the best ratio of spending to trohpies :D If you include money you get back selling players it's even more impressive. For me Sir Alex is the greatest manager ever, United finished either 1st or 2nd for like a ridiculous period of time, won 2 CLs and got into 2 other CL finals only to be beaten by one of the best Barca squads ever assembled. And as evil said he did it at times some subpar players, have you looked at our title winning 2012/13 squad? Some of them wouldn't have made it into the bench of other top teams. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
On December 20 2017 15:50 city42 wrote: Mourinho has spent an almost incomprehensible amount of money on players in the last decade. mou has shown that he wins games at clubs that dont spend ridiculous amounts of money. pep hasnt. and if were using money spent as a way of measuring how good or bad a manager is, well, pep has spent "only" 300m less than mou with a management career thats 8 years less than mourinho. i would have loved to see pep at united, i actually preferred him over mou. thats because i know united could afford to get the players pep wants and his style is more entertaining to watch which is what united fans have always wanted since saf. but if were comparing pure management ability pep has way more to prove than even mou, let alone the greatest such as saf. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On December 20 2017 15:50 city42 wrote: Mourinho has spent an almost incomprehensible amount of money on players in the last decade. So has Pep? That comment is irrelevant in this day and age. Mourinho spent £100 million in 3 seasons at Inter i think it was and won everything there. Pep spent £500million and counting at City so far...Second spell at Chelsea Mourinho spent in a net profit of less than £60million. But still that isn't fact Mourinho hasn't spent alot either i concede but he also won alot without spending it. Show me Pep winning champions league without Messi Xavi or Iniesta :D On December 20 2017 09:25 Rebs wrote: The point he was highlighting was that even with games that they squee'ed through they were never in danger of losing. Secondly those games are the exception not the rule or even common. It is playing to win by being superior. Contrast that with more pragmatic styles that rely on the opponents weaknesses, mistakes and your teams ability to punish them while ensuring that you play first not to lose I think I have my choice of what is harder to do and certainly more enjoyable to watch. Mind you the latter the Germans and Italians (and even Urugayans had been doing since time immemorial) so there is nothing new about that. Relatively speaking anyway. The way it is executed has certainly evolved. A streak like this is not normal and will not happen all the time. That he is able to do it every so often more than others is something to be mentioned, regardless of how many caveats you want to throw at it. Every kind of major success has an element of luck and near misses that get avoided. All of them. We dont discredit others when that happens so no need to do it here either. As for the United game, I dont know what you were watching but they were good for all of the goals they scored and all teams will have spells and rally. And finally its not like Man United are your average PL team, they are also a strong team and will have their moments. But there is no doubt in the minds of anyone with sense and most Pundits that the deserts were just. The tilted sarcasm from Pande you are agreeing with is an argument in bad faith at best. Makes sense his argument though. Pep has dominated every game, they didn't look like losing, meh arguable, but they also have scored via Sterling alone, 4 goals in the 90th PLUS minute, with 3 being beyond the alloted added time  The Yanited game you can argue alot of luck was had, that isn't to say City played bad though, but if Lukaku wasn't a piece of trash and head the ball to Silva for a tap in, to then an easy clearance smack it into his own players for Oatemendi tap in then it isn't 2-1 is it. Now that isn't to say the game wouldn't have finished 2-1 or whatever but those two goals weren't City destroying Yanited, it was bad defensive mistakes from SET PIECES xD Of course a win is a win, but again they "dominated" a game according to everyone but scored 2 set piece goals because of big mistakes. Pep done ok so far, spent £500 million, got a stupidly good squad and it is paying dividends with how he plays with his high press. Squad he played last night in cup sums up how strong city side is ! All bought talent minus 2. For him to be doing great we need to be having this same conversation at minimum this time next year if not later. Also shout out to my beautiful new icon courtesy of sneirac isn't it just beautiful | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On December 20 2017 10:57 Dante08 wrote: Not convinced with Pep's Barca and Bayern years. Barca he had one of the best squads ever and don't even argue winning the Bundesliga with Bayern. But this year's City is really something else and I'm definitely impressed. The fallacy in your argument here is that no one remembers that the Barca squad that was one of the "best ever" was floating around in mediocrity going pretty much nowhere in Rijkaards last two years. Rijkaard had lucked into Ronnie which was all Laporta's doing + Show Spoiler + (and for suspect footballing reasons at best, more because he failed to land Becks) That brought two years of success which interrupted a decade of mediocrity with some flashes of promise at best. Its easy to forget or for people who dont know, but for those of us who's greatest joy in the year was to manage parity in the Classico's while barely qualifying for CL, that was a welcome interruption but it was a tenuous improvement at best. That coupled with a particular wave of Galacticos aging made life easier for Rijkaard early on and as soon as Ronnie got fat and lazy the team went to mediocrity. Oh and Real bought more. Where is Pep in all this though, Pep he did nothing like push them up through the B team as their coach and then also advance those same players into the the main squad and practically clean house and build it from scratch. Except that he did all of those things. + Show Spoiler + Sure he made transfers that didnt work out. Find me a manager that hasnt done that. How much did he spend on that first all conquering team I wonder. Well, pretty much nothing. Oh right right, it wasnt him though, it was La Masia producing all these good players. Bayern sure, not much credit there. That was pretty easymode, but credit where credit is due on Barcelona. But hey, Ignorance as always is bliss so enjoy it. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On December 20 2017 17:57 Pandemona wrote: But still that isn't fact Mourinho hasn't spent alot either i concede but he also won alot without spending it. Show me Pep winning champions league without Messi Xavi or Iniesta :D How much did Pep spend on Xavi, Iniesta and Messi ? There are plenty of ways to discredit Mou's achievments aswell but doing that would make one just as bad as you. Here is an example of the kind of thing you are doing. See spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Mou is great at making average teams good at winning against Monaco, fucking Monaco. In what is widely considered the weakest CL season. Also United got Cheated out of the Porto tie. Pretty sure Carvalho tore of enough knickers and shirts to clothe an african village for Charity. For anyone who remembers, it was dirty and it was ugly. Just like Mou's philosophy about football in general. Actually just like Mou. But hey lets all forget that and remiss obessisvely at the travesty that was Barca - Chelsea. Thats the real important one. Well played bravo, he da best. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
On December 21 2017 00:02 Rebs wrote: How much did Pep spend on Xavi, Iniesta and Messi ? There are plenty of ways to discredit Mou's achievments aswell but doing that would make one just as bad as you. Here is an example of the kind of thing you are doing. See spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Mou is great at making average teams good at winning against Monaco, fucking Monaco. In what is widely considered the weakest CL season. Also United got Cheated out of the Porto tie. Pretty sure Carvalho tore of enough knickers and shirts to clothe an african village for Charity. For anyone who remembers, it was dirty and it was ugly. Just like Mou's philosophy about football in general. but he lets all forget that and stare at the travesty that was Barca - Chelsea. Thats the real important one. Well played bravo, he da best. pep discovering great players at his club doesnt make him a great manager. a great scout or coach maybe, but your argument doesnt change the fact that he has only managed world class players and employs a style that can only be pulled off by such players. a very common characteristic in management in any industry is adaptability and pep has zero. in fact in whichever club he goes to the club and its players have to adapt to him and if you cant then youre cut. hes good at what he does when hes allowed to do it, but thats exactly why he is yet to prove himself as one of the greatest. hes never been in a situation where he wasnt allowed the freedom he requires. theres also the other aspect of his teams being just as short lived as mous. in fairness, he cut his tenure at his previous teams himself but for the purposes of his success at the epl, its far too early to call him a success based on just this seasons performance. mancini and pellegrini have also won the epl with city yet no one considers them to have particularly successful management careers in england. how can pep be considered as one of the greatest when no one considers his bundesliga career to be particularly special and its far too early to say he has been successful in england also | ||
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