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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On December 18 2017 07:51 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 05:01 Pandemona wrote:
No it isn't you can't say an argument is irrelevant when they bought players to sit on the fkn bench. Benrnado Silva, Danilo, Douglas Luiz come to mind! That together is £120 million of talent for BENCH. Add to the rest they already had in terms of Yaya Toure, Gundogan, Delph, Jesus, Sane, Mangala that were all on the bench last season anyway. Now Jesus and Sane start more, the rest still sit on bench and come in as rotation. They are also going to buy a new centre back in January as well to mean they ahve even more options. You cannot say he is winning because he has coached the players he had because he bought most of them and the good players who where their are good and winners anyway?
He has bought so much to make it easy to rotate and play high aggressive closing down and such in the premier league. We all saw how badly Klopp failed last season due to going to extreme with it and his players injured all time. He also has options too in the attacking sense anyway.
You don't understand football if you think Pep has coached this team into what we see today with 23 man squad of super stars that now how to win football and the star players already at club before he joined! DeBruyne / Sterling / Kompany / Silva / Aguero etc, they won the league without him before remember this isn't knew, they blew the league away the year they won it with Pellegrini too. He was a great manager too wasn't he....
Yeah i said he wouldn't be able to win with the style he showed, he aint going to have 90% possession in England like he did with Barca, he spent loads and failed, he spent even more than before and now is achieveing. He averages 65% possession this season, so do Chelsea for example...hardly Barcelona esc is it!
You also are doing exactly what i did....but you come out when Pep is wining and on top and call him the best manager in the world. No one cared what he did at Bayern because he didn't do anything with them, he failed in Europe and just won domestically which wasn't much of a feat. He hasn't hit the heights of when he was at Barca with the best squad in the world, in too which he still didn't win all the time in. He has put foundations in with a big spending spree and huge investment into how Man City is run. Can he really build something here, can he dominate with them. This season so far yes he has, but there is Europe to conquer and the rest of the season to go. I didnt say he is the best manager in the world. I may think that, but I dont see myself ever making such nonsense claims. Not sure where that is coming from. So if I am falling this nonsense correctly, I dont understand football because I think a coach should get credit for making his teams player in stellar fashion. Because really he just bought all the best ones. None of whome anyone considered the "best" ones at the start of the season and then just decided that since this streak happened we just called it all along. Look at yourself in the mirror man. Its kind of sad that you can literally not stand the thought that the guy is doing well and are grasping at everything and anything to not give him his due. Caveats are important, after all. We cant live without them when something we cant stand happens and we must begrudgingly admit. Hindsight, what a beauty. Thank God forum posts are easily accessible to call bullshit. Ok well thats the end of the argument then. . Pep sucks, City just spent their way into playing so awesome. You know like Chelsea and United back in the day. Now lets just shift the goal posts a bit and ask him to win everything possible any further failure on the horizon must be severely brow beaten because obviously this isnt enough. What exactly is it that I am doing that you are doing ? Even when he was losing (refer to link) I had advised that it wouldnt happen overnight. Granted this level of performance is far exceeding anyone's expectations but I had always expected improvement and I had cautioned you to not sit here and tell everyone that Peps footy wont work. Because its working. Thats the bottom line, however its working doesn't matter. You said it wouldn't work. You said nothing about squads and tiring and pressing. Or any other reason. You simply were so sure that that kind of football was not better than your precious kick and rush that he wouldnt find a way around it. And he did. Deal with it.
Pep needs to compete at city for a few seasons doing this style to get the upmost respect from me. What he has done at the moment, is just have the best squad in England by a mile and you say before the season started it wasn't...are you daft? He bought the best two players from Monaco, bought a Real Madrid right back as a SQUAD player. Bought Spur's right back and the best and most consistent in the premier league to go with that. The only one who was questioned that he signed was the Benfica goal keeper who has become a solid keeper at passing not worlds best at goalkeeping per se but probably the best with the ball at his feet. But that is digressing, the rest he already had were still worlds top talent ready to "explode" into life and showed glimpses last year when they were saving him. Jesus came in January and started scoring when he BENCHED Aguero for a long period remember....So they have an amazing squad which didn't just turn world class is my point, it was amazing, he added world class players to it again and made it even bigger and better. But according to you, Man City players were "bad" last season and only just became good because of Pep's coaching this season?
I will give Pep credit if he continues to do this without throwing money at it all the time. If he builds a legacy, something Man City have lacked it seems, one minute they are on it, the next they are not. Like Pep last season was the same with Pellegrini style of City. They played very good for a period, then disappeared and didn't look interested. At the moment they seem very hungry and turning up every week and thus getting results when they don't normally. If we are here at this point this time next year i will concede Pep needs more respect where Man City still look a dominate beast and conquering everywhere.
It is like everyone forgot what he did at Bayern over night because he is done 6 months out of 18 at Man City that is very good. He took the champions of Europe and treble winning Bayern side to a top 4/6 side in Europe because they could not defend at the highest level at all. They won Bundesliga easily because it is easy for Bayern he was always going to be judged on European stage and he failed to progress in that competition. He has still only won the champions league with Messi in his team, which i am not saying is a free pass BUT even Zidane can win it with Ronaldo in his  ! haha
On your final point, my kick and rush style isn't what i like or what i care about. I said his style which is high press, get the ball back, pass it around for hours without shooting style. Which didn't work until he got the squad to be able to do that because like Klopp they realized you can't do that in England without a squad because your players get tired to quickly just to amount of games that are not free wins like in other leagues. He also isn't playing the way he did with Barca and Bayern they only average 65% possession which is alot but it isn't no 75% plus he is probably normally averaging and such. Also how can you say it works when only half a season is gone and he has been successful 6/18 months of his Premier League career anyway. He will win the league this year no doubt, but can he build that legacy!
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No one said these players were bad, but definitely not top top tier. And he made that team the best in the world (currently at least, let's see what happens in CL). If you can't see the improvement in players like Sterling or Sané, you're just blind. If you don't see how tactically amazing that team is right now, you're deluded. And these are all Pep's.
"But would he be able to do this against Stoke on a rainy day?" haha. Well he did.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Not top tier? People were telling me DeBruyne was best thing in Bundesliga when they signed him and he was amazing. Aguero has and is the most consistant and best striker in the premier league as he has scored so many goals for 6-7 seasons in a row now. Kompany the best cb left now out of the old guard (JT/Carragher/Ferdinand etc) Walker was best right back in the league, etc etc. We can go through the squad one by one if you wish.
Improvement in results has come from the fact that for me he has a huge ass squad to choose from and the best players because he invested £500 million into a squad that won the league 3 seasons ago. (4 seasons now i guess)
I am not saying he is a bad manager, i am just saying he isn't the best and what he has done is good but not no where near exceptional level. If he continues to do this for another 18 months then i will concede on that, until then what he has done is just good.
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Give me a coach that's better than him right now.
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On December 18 2017 21:46 WillyWanker wrote:
Give me a coach that's better than him right now.
Heynkes every day of the week :D
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Well there are some exceptional managers around right now, probably many i will miss of my list, but to be exceptional doesn't mean winning everything per se. Likes of some of these i will list haven't won anything but done such wonderful jobs.
Sean Dyche - Burnley 0 money, nothing to work with, he has them competing top 6 right now.
Conte - Chelsea were in a pit when he came and has made us very competitive, this season struggle consistancy but done a great job.
Mourinho - has bought yanited back to being competitive again, spent millions but he is in the biggest club in the world, if they can't spend money they have earned then idk
Pocchetinho - Took Spurs from being reliant on Bale to be relevant to being a competitive team with youngsters who try and play football.
That is just the ones in England, then you add in likes of Valencia's manager, Marcelino who has taken them back up the table. Napoli's manager Maurizio Sarri who made them a very very good side and devastating on the counter, also the way they play from the back is beautiful to watch at times, even for me
Then i would also add Valverde, even though Barca still do not look as powerful as they were in the heyday of Messi and co, but he has set them up way more solidly and they don't even rely on their old midfielders anymore. He saw the same thing i see in Paulinho too and he has been a huge hit, scored 2 goals again last night (yes were tapins but right place right time!).
Some of these might not be better than pep in records no, but they do extraordinary things so far in their careers (ie valencia coach) but they are also stupidly consistent the rest.
Also you can argue that the most successful manager to date is Zidane by a mile, factually and statistically. Which imo would make me so angry because i think the guy is the worst Madrid manager in a LONG time, probably worst than Benitez. This is why stats and prizes don't make a successful manager all the time, that isn't saying what Pep won was easy, just saying the likes of Zidane aren't world class.
Clairty here, i didn't mean pep the best manager, i meant being the best city manager yet, Pellegrini won more than him and even Mancini etc etc. However i didn't mean managers better than Pep at doing Pep things cuz that is Pep. But that isn't to say he is better than Mourinho at doing Mourinho things etc etc. The list i just gave is list of exceptional managers at this right moment in time, i don't mean they are better than Pep per se, just doing a stupidly good job or have been very consistant
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17 wins and 1 draw is "nowhere near the exceptional level" lol? He has wrapped up the league by December.
Pep plays beautiful football and his results are immaculate, so there is really no argument to the claim that he is the best manager in the world.
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On December 18 2017 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Conte - Chelsea were in a pit when he came and has made us very competitive, this season struggle consistancy but done a great job.
On December 18 2017 05:01 Pandemona wrote:
You don't understand football if you think Pep has coached this team into what we see today with 23 man squad of super stars that now how to win football and the star players already at club before he joined! DeBruyne / Sterling / Kompany / Silva / Aguero etc, they won the league without him before remember this isn't knew, they blew the league away the year they won it with Pellegrini too. He was a great manager too wasn't he....
Thank you for destroying your stance with your own hypocrisy.
- Pep gets no credit for this 17/18 City team, because they were great and won the title 13/14.
- Conte gets all the credit for 16/17 Chelsea, despite them winning the title 14/15.
Oh and it gets even more ridiculous Mourinho, the coach that destroyed Chelsea 15/16 so badly that they bore no resemblance to the champions of the previous year and Conte had to start from scratch and is great, is absolutely not to blame for it and is much better than Pep....
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
How is he the best manager in the world, he has won nothing yet, he will win the premier league title probably but he wins one premier league title he is ranked in same league as Ranieri and still not even more successful Man City manager ?
I not saying Pep is a bad manager, i am just saying he is not the best, especially not yet. If he dominates premier league in the next few seasons like he is now, for sure i will retract this statement, but going on a 16 game win streak with £500 million investment on a squad that was already champions a few seasons ago isn't exactly a surprise in truth is it. It is great and good, just not the best.
On December 18 2017 22:42 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Conte - Chelsea were in a pit when he came and has made us very competitive, this season struggle consistancy but done a great job.
Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 05:01 Pandemona wrote:
You don't understand football if you think Pep has coached this team into what we see today with 23 man squad of super stars that now how to win football and the star players already at club before he joined! DeBruyne / Sterling / Kompany / Silva / Aguero etc, they won the league without him before remember this isn't knew, they blew the league away the year they won it with Pellegrini too. He was a great manager too wasn't he.... Thank you for destroying your stance with your own hypocrisy. - Pep gets no credit for this 17/18 City team, because they were great and won the title 13/14. - Conte gets all the credit for 16/17 Chelsea, despite them winning the title 14/15. Oh and it gets even more ridiculous Mourinho, the coach that destroyed Chelsea 15/16 so badly that they bore no resemblance to the champions of the previous year and Conte had to start from scratch and is great, is absolutely not to blame for it and is much better than Pep....
Ask Yanited fans if they think Mourinho is a shit coach, he has returned them to challenging for titles, something they have not done since Sir Alex left all those years ago....
Lets put it the way i meant it to be, is Mourinho better at Pep at doign Mourinho things? Yes, 100%. Is Pep better at Mourinho at doing Pep things, yes 100%
Mourinho is more successful in England and around the world, thus for me he is "better" than Pep as that is the only way you can rate them. Right now they are battling in Manchester so it be easier to rate them, but Pep took a Man City side over that was top 3 or better in the previous 6 plus seasons before he even got there, where as Mourinho took Yanited when they were poor.
But anyway, Pep isn't suddenly the best manager in the world because of what he is doing RIGHT NOW at Man City i refuse to ever believe that. 16 game win streak is exceptional, but im sure Brendan Rogers at Celtic would have a word with you on that
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On December 18 2017 22:39 Espers wrote:
17 wins and 1 draw is "nowhere near the exceptional level" lol? He has wrapped up the league by December.
Pep plays beautiful football and his results are immaculate, so there is really no argument to the claim that he is the best manager in the world.
And he has made "passing football" work in the Premier League every match, a PL with a historical lack of technique and very physical. That is a great feat in my opinion.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On December 18 2017 22:47 haitike wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 22:39 Espers wrote:
17 wins and 1 draw is "nowhere near the exceptional level" lol? He has wrapped up the league by December.
Pep plays beautiful football and his results are immaculate, so there is really no argument to the claim that he is the best manager in the world. And he has made "passing football" work in the Premier League every match, a PL with a historical lack of technique and very physical. That is a great feat in my opinion.
Arsene Wenger and Pochettinho anyone???
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On December 18 2017 22:43 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 22:42 sneirac wrote:On December 18 2017 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Conte - Chelsea were in a pit when he came and has made us very competitive, this season struggle consistancy but done a great job.
On December 18 2017 05:01 Pandemona wrote:
You don't understand football if you think Pep has coached this team into what we see today with 23 man squad of super stars that now how to win football and the star players already at club before he joined! DeBruyne / Sterling / Kompany / Silva / Aguero etc, they won the league without him before remember this isn't knew, they blew the league away the year they won it with Pellegrini too. He was a great manager too wasn't he.... Thank you for destroying your stance with your own hypocrisy. - Pep gets no credit for this 17/18 City team, because they were great and won the title 13/14. - Conte gets all the credit for 16/17 Chelsea, despite them winning the title 14/15. Oh and it gets even more ridiculous Mourinho, the coach that destroyed Chelsea 15/16 so badly that they bore no resemblance to the champions of the previous year and Conte had to start from scratch and is great, is absolutely not to blame for it and is much better than Pep.... Ask Yanited fans if they think Mourinho is a shit coach, he has returned them to challenging for titles, something they have not done since Sir Alex left all those years ago....
You weren't and aren't talking about whether or not United fans are happy with Mourinho or if he has improved them, you're disparaging Pep by applying ridiculous double standards.
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So he needs to prove himself in the PL? A league that hasn't been competitive in Europe for years...? He was the best manager in the world before he landed in Manchester. Either way, he's already won the league.
You know he did a solid job at Bayern and built one of the greatest sides ever at Barcelona.
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On December 18 2017 22:48 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 22:47 haitike wrote:On December 18 2017 22:39 Espers wrote:
17 wins and 1 draw is "nowhere near the exceptional level" lol? He has wrapped up the league by December.
Pep plays beautiful football and his results are immaculate, so there is really no argument to the claim that he is the best manager in the world. And he has made "passing football" work in the Premier League every match, a PL with a historical lack of technique and very physical. That is a great feat in my opinion. Arsene Wenger and Pochettinho anyone???
Oh Wenger, the coach that won Premier League in 2003. I'm talking about modern football, not 15 years ago football.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
He did a solid job at Bayern doing nothing different. Winning the easy Bundesliga which if Bayern normally means the world is about to end lol. Bayern are like Celtic in Bundesliga, it isn't even a competition, so winning that 3 times is hardly hard. Even Ancelotti was still on course to win Bundesliga this season before he was fired....He was judged their in Europe and all he managed was heavy defeats in semi finals. Most of the time he got to that stage picking off Arsenal which isn't exactly hard
England is always at the forefront of the best league due to its sheer competitiveness and if you are using the Europe argument to say they are not, Pep has only won the champions league with Messi Xavi & Iniesta n his starting 11....so that vs other managers like Ancelotti or Mourinho who won it with different clubs and different players .... who can be better?
He wins the premier league this year which is likely yes, does that make him the best in the world for winning the premier league one time? Best ever because of won win? Wenger invicibles record is great, amazing, something that won't be matched (maybe it will...) yet he isn't no good anymore is he? He isn't the best...why, because he hasn't won it since lol. Pep needs to build this City team to win again and again to get more respect. You can't give him the best manager in world title for winning title one time after spending £500million on one of the richest squads in the league before he arrived. If he does it 2-3 times in the future then ok congratulations Pep is a great manager.
On December 18 2017 22:48 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 22:43 Pandemona wrote:On December 18 2017 22:42 sneirac wrote:On December 18 2017 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Conte - Chelsea were in a pit when he came and has made us very competitive, this season struggle consistancy but done a great job.
On December 18 2017 05:01 Pandemona wrote:
You don't understand football if you think Pep has coached this team into what we see today with 23 man squad of super stars that now how to win football and the star players already at club before he joined! DeBruyne / Sterling / Kompany / Silva / Aguero etc, they won the league without him before remember this isn't knew, they blew the league away the year they won it with Pellegrini too. He was a great manager too wasn't he.... Thank you for destroying your stance with your own hypocrisy. - Pep gets no credit for this 17/18 City team, because they were great and won the title 13/14. - Conte gets all the credit for 16/17 Chelsea, despite them winning the title 14/15. Oh and it gets even more ridiculous Mourinho, the coach that destroyed Chelsea 15/16 so badly that they bore no resemblance to the champions of the previous year and Conte had to start from scratch and is great, is absolutely not to blame for it and is much better than Pep.... Ask Yanited fans if they think Mourinho is a shit coach, he has returned them to challenging for titles, something they have not done since Sir Alex left all those years ago.... You weren't and aren't talking about whether or not United fans are happy with Mourinho or if he has improved them, you're disparaging Pep by applying ridiculous double standards.
No double standards just different view points.
Pep is a good manager - i concede that i said he was bad this was obviously a troll he is a good manager just not the best....yet at least
Mourinho - proven to be better than pep with the jobs and success he has had, just fact.
The other managers i linked aren't better than pep per se but are doing a job just as good if not in most cases way better. Pep has the tools to do his job where as the other managers don't have everything open to them and are doing fantastic. Pep said Napoli the best team he has faced, they spent hardly any money and get their squad chopped up every transfer window. These just little points, like i said if Pep is still "dominating" prem in 2 seasons time then ok gg
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Conte did an amazing job getting Chelsea back on their feet (a super poor, tier 3 EPL team), yet Pep had it easy winning the treble with a Barça side that didn't do anything for a couple of years.
Also I love the "he bought all the best players" argument because United (managed by the greatest coach of PL history, who got sacked at Chelsea, basically the same at Real and soon at MU) also have enough cash to buy all the best players. Yet, only one of the 2 teams is playing great football. It's as if selecting the right players was a quality for a manager.
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On December 18 2017 22:57 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 22:48 sneirac wrote:On December 18 2017 22:43 Pandemona wrote:On December 18 2017 22:42 sneirac wrote:On December 18 2017 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Conte - Chelsea were in a pit when he came and has made us very competitive, this season struggle consistancy but done a great job.
On December 18 2017 05:01 Pandemona wrote:
You don't understand football if you think Pep has coached this team into what we see today with 23 man squad of super stars that now how to win football and the star players already at club before he joined! DeBruyne / Sterling / Kompany / Silva / Aguero etc, they won the league without him before remember this isn't knew, they blew the league away the year they won it with Pellegrini too. He was a great manager too wasn't he.... Thank you for destroying your stance with your own hypocrisy. - Pep gets no credit for this 17/18 City team, because they were great and won the title 13/14. - Conte gets all the credit for 16/17 Chelsea, despite them winning the title 14/15. Oh and it gets even more ridiculous Mourinho, the coach that destroyed Chelsea 15/16 so badly that they bore no resemblance to the champions of the previous year and Conte had to start from scratch and is great, is absolutely not to blame for it and is much better than Pep.... Ask Yanited fans if they think Mourinho is a shit coach, he has returned them to challenging for titles, something they have not done since Sir Alex left all those years ago.... You weren't and aren't talking about whether or not United fans are happy with Mourinho or if he has improved them, you're disparaging Pep by applying ridiculous double standards. No double standards just different view points. Pep is a good manager - i concede that i said he was bad this was obviously a troll he is a good manager just not the best....yet at least Mourinho - proven to be better than pep with the jobs and success he has had, just fact. The other managers i linked aren't better than pep per se but are doing a job just as good if not in most cases way better. Pep has the tools to do his job where as the other managers don't have everything open to them and are doing fantastic. Pep said Napoli the best team he has faced, they spent hardly any money and get their squad chopped up every transfer window. These just little points, like i said if Pep is still "dominating" prem in 2 seasons time then ok gg
Again, please decide
a) Conte is great despite Chelsea title 2 years before -> Pep is great despite City title 4 years before
b) both are overrated because their teams recently won titles
You can't disparage Pep for it while praising Conte, ignoring Mourinhos complete and utter failure and destruction of Chelsea because he was successful at earlier points is just the kicker.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Conte took a side who finished 10th.....and was poor. Tier 3 according to Willy....and then won title.
Pep took a side over who had finished no lower than 3rd in the last decade. Mourinho took a side over who finished 5th and only won an FA cup in years and years.
He had one failure at Chelsea for half a season and Pep also had half a season failure, see the Rebs post showing the mighty man city in 6th position after 21 games etc.
Everyone saying Pep best in world for what? Tell me why he is the best in the world? For winning 16 games in a row in premier league? For winning champions league 3 times with Messi Xavi Iniesta in their primes? For "dominating" bundesliga with Bayern Munich?
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Chelsea wasn't a tier 3 team. Nothing changed between 14/15, 15/16 and ultimately 16/17 except horrible coaching and pre season prep.
Also Mourinhos bad half season left them in 16th not 6th and City didn't win the title the year before with 15 points lead.
e: Pep is _currently_ the best in the world for having the best start in what you call the best league in its most competitive season (see CL) and that with a playstyle that doesn't rely on barricading the goal with public transport.
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Norway28873 Posts
Pep has managed three teams. The first Barcelona team was the most dominant team in the modern era of football. Bayern he did fairly well in, but seeing how he followed a fantastic treble season he didn't look too impressive. Now second season in City and it looks like he's about to build the most dominant team in the modern era of football - again. Disputing Pep's greatness is just stupidly stubborn.
I've never even been a fan really (I've cheered for mourinho in every mou vs pep battle ever), while his teams are immensely impressive, I thought his old barcelona was boring to watch. Partially because the result was such a given though but also partially because I remember them as being so good at controlling the ball that if they got a lead, they could defend with possession and then it just wasn't exciting. I enjoyed watching barcelona when they had to score, but if they took the lead, that was it. No way were they losing then. And out of all the top 6 teams in the PL, City is the one I dislike the most, the one I want to fail. But every piece of evidence points towards that his tactics, when given enough time and money, create the most successful and dominant teams the world has ever seen. You really have to be deliberately blind not to see this.
Mourinho seems better at making underdog teams winners. I don't think Pep could've done what he did with Porto, I don't think Pep could've made Greece win the EC, I don't think he could have made Leicester win the league. But nobody else could have created his Barcelona and nobody else could have created this City.
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EPT
