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On October 18 2016 17:05 RvB wrote:
The point is that the changes won't happen and they won't have to leave. You can look down on them but if they all leave they'll take a majority of the viewers from those countries with them. They might hurt themselves but they'll also hurt the UEFA and the big clubs.
Being a small club doesn't mean you have to take all the shit the UEFA and the big clubs throw at you.
As an Ajax fan, I can actually see quite a lot of good in stopping the stupid moneyball that CL is becoming. At the cost of no longer getting the millions for participating? Given that it is only getting harder and harder to participate anyway, with increasing favors heaped on a select few clubs (by the merit of even fewer of them), I think that searching for an alternative is not bad at all.
And given that I'd much rather see Ajax-Rosenborg than Ajax-some unknown Azerbaijani team, as is the case in Europa League, the initiative makes sense.
Are most of Ajax'problems due to their own incompetence? Absolutely. But the "why things went wrong" question is a lot less interesting than "what can we do to steer things back on the right track" question.
In the short term, I don't doubt that a league like this will hurt. Ajax and PSV have been pretty reliably splitting the CL millions from the one spot NL got. They have also both failed quite consistently to qualify from the second place. And of course Ajax-RM is a match we all like to see more than Ajax-Copenhagen (as I assume Copenhagen fans would rather see RM than Ajax). But given that the former is increasingly less likely to occur, let's at least have the latter.
A bit rambly, but tldr: the CL has gone too fare, and mid-league clubs are pushing back.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
I don't think it will effect money as much as you think. Spain Germany Italy and England are by far the biggest money incentive for Champions League in that competition, the rest of the big viewing figures would come from Non European countries broadcast rights before the likes of Netherlands/Sweden/Norway etc surely? I'd like to see some figures i guess if there is any, but that is my view is that UEFA would not lose dramatically and this "new" league/tournament that the other sides are threatening to make would need to find a huge sponsor to back it and to try and make it work. Which is extremely hard as it would be all on Russia/Netherlands right to get the money pumped in? And in all fairness take away the countries involved who would watch Malmo vs Rosenborg? Then the other competition is left with Juventus AC Milan Inter Milan Real Madrid Barcelona Atletico Madrid Yanited Arsenal Man City Liverpool Spurs Chelsea Bayern Dortmund. It's just seems a bit of a one way debate in terms of the financial side of it which im sure UEFA will be goaded into seeing more than the rest of European teams moaning a bit.
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I don't think it's about money for the big teams. Hell, I'm not even sure it's all about money for the teams we're talking about, although partially it is. These teams are threatening to step out of the UEFA, not just the CL. In actual fact, most of these teams will not play much CL anyway. They will mostly be stepping out of the EL, remember, that league that absolutely nobody gives a shit about, and then Sevilla wins.
E: if it really was only about money, then Ajax probably wouldn't step out of the UEFA. With the upcoming prize distribution rules, it means that any time Ajax can make it to the CL, they will get a comparatively bigger payout than today, even if they lose all 6 their matches (and they usually don't, they have gotten 3rd spot in all recent performances). It is probably more about sporting aspects and where they feel football should be heading: more sport, and less pandering to tv deals and sponsors.
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On October 18 2016 18:09 Pandemona wrote:
I don't think it will effect money as much as you think. Spain Germany Italy and England are by far the biggest money incentive for Champions League in that competition, the rest of the big viewing figures would come from Non European countries broadcast rights before the likes of Netherlands/Sweden/Norway etc surely? I'd like to see some figures i guess if there is any, but that is my view is that UEFA would not lose dramatically and this "new" league/tournament that the other sides are threatening to make would need to find a huge sponsor to back it and to try and make it work. Which is extremely hard as it would be all on Russia/Netherlands right to get the money pumped in? And in all fairness take away the countries involved who would watch Malmo vs Rosenborg? Then the other competition is left with Juventus AC Milan Inter Milan Real Madrid Barcelona Atletico Madrid Yanited Arsenal Man City Liverpool Spurs Chelsea Bayern Dortmund. It's just seems a bit of a one way debate in terms of the financial side of it which im sure UEFA will be goaded into seeing more than the rest of European teams moaning a bit.
I can't find any statistics sadly. Anyway I think you're underestimating the importance of these countries. If you take The Netherlands, Scotland, Sweden, Norway and Belgium together you get a total GDP of $2320851 million. That's the size of France. It's not just viewership that matters but also where they're from. A viewer from NL will be more valuable than one from India.
Of course if they leave it won't mean nobody from those countries will watch but it'll still reduce the total viewership and something tells me that sponsors won't be very pleased if it happens.
Besides that what claim does the UEFA have to be the European FA when clubs from so many countries leave?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
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I also believe that the biggest hit to the UEFA would be, that they cant claim to represent Europe anymore if all those countries leave. They are turning the EL/CL more and more into the plastic league for the corporate interests of a few selected sugardaddy clubs, and this would be even more exposed by those countries leaving.
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Isn't this gonna lead to what Uefa was actually trying to avoid with the new deal? Instead of the top tier breaking away to form a European super league, the smaller teams/associations split off and what remains is a European super league....
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Also is important to look on the bright side in this as we have several dutch footy friends here.
If such a break were to happen not only would the Netherlands be able to qualify for an independent European championships, they would likely be favorites in it and return to forgotten glory.
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On October 18 2016 23:48 sneirac wrote:
Also is important to look on the bright side in this as we have several dutch footy friends here.
If such a break were to happen not only would the Netherlands be able to qualify for an independent European championships, they would likely be favorites in it and return to forgotten glory.
The talk is about club football only.
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On October 19 2016 00:10 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 23:48 sneirac wrote:
Also is important to look on the bright side in this as we have several dutch footy friends here.
If such a break were to happen not only would the Netherlands be able to qualify for an independent European championships, they would likely be favorites in it and return to forgotten glory.
The talk is about club football only.
Afaik currently only clubs are talking, what happens if these clubs were to actually follow through with it is a different story. Everything from country associations sanctioning clubs to Uefa sanctioning countries would be possible.
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The changes are absolute bullshit. And it takes big balls for the smaller clubs to stand up to UEFA. I am on their side here. Someone has to try and show UEFA this is total crap. But I can totally see Panda's point that if they wanted to UEFA could just plow on and ignore smaller teams leaving. What we really need is the fans in the 'big four' to come out and tell UEFA this is bullshit and we don't want it. But I guess the fans don't matter anyway the deals done with the managers.
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It's not UEFA fault. Real/Bayern/Juve forced UEFA to change the format. UEFA had no choice. Otherwise they would build a new competition (like Superliga) without UEFA. Arsene Wenger said: "We definitely need UEFA. Otherwise we will have different titles soon like in boxing, 5 different world titles and nobody knows who is the real champion".
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Right so it's the clubs that want this?
That makes it hard to stop. We all know the clubs don't listen to the fans.
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On October 19 2016 00:53 Dingodile wrote:
It's not UEFA fault. Real/Bayern/Juve forced UEFA to change the format. UEFA had no choice. Otherwise they would build a new competition (like Superliga) without UEFA. Arsene Wenger said: "We definitely need UEFA. Otherwise we will have different titles soon like in boxing, 5 different world titles and nobody knows who is the real champion".
That's all very well, but it's kinda UEFA's job to balance the interests of the different teams and leagues, and the latest changes are clearly not achieving that very well.
Pande is of course right. The CL can happily continue on without whatever teams decide to break off, and sneirac is also right in that they can also pressure leagues to sanction the teams breaking off (and who knows what happens then, because while the big 4 are the most powerful teams in the CL, the teams we are talking about are the most powerful teams in their own respective leagues). But if the UEFA is at all interested in keeping mid-league clubs in the CL, they'd do best to pay attention to what is going on, and realize that there is a lot of unhappiness with their "rich get richer" changes.
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Only rich clubs want this change.
UEFA wants to keep mid/low teams like right now but UEFA can lose Bayern/Juve/Real and few more bigger teams? I don't think so.
I think Italy won't like this. Juve will always be in UCL ro16. AS Roma sometimes. The other 2 italy teams will always be 4th in their UCL group so other countries like France, Portugal can gain more points than italy at 5 year ranking..
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Haha, seriously? Italian clubs were one of the dirving force behind those retarded changes. They sure as hell love getting shelled all those sweet millions from 4th place finishes in the CL.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
On October 19 2016 00:53 Dingodile wrote:
It's not UEFA fault. Real/Bayern/Juve forced UEFA to change the format. UEFA had no choice. Otherwise they would build a new competition (like Superliga) without UEFA. Arsene Wenger said: "We definitely need UEFA. Otherwise we will have different titles soon like in boxing, 5 different world titles and nobody knows who is the real champion".
Yeah this is a good point, if it really goes wrong before we know it there is 3 "european cup" competitions claiming they are the real champions of europe etc. It needs to stick as it is, imo with maybe some changes but nothing drastic to cause a huge problem like what is being described by everyone.
What i would like though is a transparant debate on the subject from UEFA, aka get some transcripts of what they are discussing about the solutions to the problem. When everything is behind closed doors and then randomly one day in the future a decision is made out of the blue that is not good. We want to know how the decision comes out so we can see which parties or which suggestions are good/bad.
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On October 19 2016 00:53 Dingodile wrote:
It's not UEFA fault. Real/Bayern/Juve forced UEFA to change the format. UEFA had no choice. Otherwise they would build a new competition (like Superliga) without UEFA. Arsene Wenger said: "We definitely need UEFA. Otherwise we will have different titles soon like in boxing, 5 different world titles and nobody knows who is the real champion".
The irony is that a team like Ajax would probably among the absolute top teams now if a European super league would have been established like 20 years ago. The small domestic league is what kept Ajax from growing financially like other top clubs from the old era.
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On October 19 2016 01:54 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2016 00:53 Dingodile wrote:
It's not UEFA fault. Real/Bayern/Juve forced UEFA to change the format. UEFA had no choice. Otherwise they would build a new competition (like Superliga) without UEFA. Arsene Wenger said: "We definitely need UEFA. Otherwise we will have different titles soon like in boxing, 5 different world titles and nobody knows who is the real champion". Yeah this is a good point, if it really goes wrong before we know it there is 3 "european cup" competitions claiming they are the real champions of europe etc. It needs to stick as it is, imo with maybe some changes but nothing drastic to cause a huge problem like what is being described by everyone. What i would like though is a transparant debate on the subject from UEFA, aka get some transcripts of what they are discussing about the solutions to the problem. When everything is behind closed doors and then randomly one day in the future a decision is made out of the blue that is not good. We want to know how the decision comes out so we can see which parties or which suggestions are good/bad.
But how can you bribe Platini (sorry, I mean Ceferin) if it´s all out in the open! Transparency is for plebs who don't want long-standing traditions like corruption and bribery in their institutions.
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EPT
