EPTOn January 24 2017 07:35 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I think people don't really know what full RoM means, like who decides what is full range of motion.
I can do my squats in socks, and my butt goes down around 10cm above the floor while keeping my back straight, is that considered full RoM? I can do dips (without pain) up to a 45 degree angle between my forearm and bicep, still full RoM? When doing dumbbell press I can go say 5cm below my chest, does that mean that every bench press I do is not full range of motion because my chest is in the way? I can do deadlifts while being on a block a foot off the ground, does that mean that all normal deadlifts I do are garbage?
Yes, my tone here is a tad aggressive, but for some stupid reason, people think that more range of motion = better. Our bodies aren't designed to be strong in really absurd positions. There isn't some magic line where RoM is crap, and then your RoM is perfect, it's all on a sliding scale. Exercises like dips are on the very edge of that continuum where strength can be developed, you go a bit lower, and you reach a point where strength can't be developed, and you injure yourself. Or you have injured yourself in the past, and that limits your new practical RoM, or you had not ideal genetics for it.
To me it's just absurd how we're talking about range of motion like you're fucked up if you can't do a certain movement. Like every single person here is fucked up when you're comparing themselves to a contortionist, or most weightlifters are pretty bad compared to the crossfit people.
Then there's things too consider, like generally speaking, when you increase range of motion, you're going to decrease strength on your lifts, for example squatting to parallel for 1 year versus squatting 20 degrees below parallel for 1 year, the person squatting to parallel will be quite a bit stronger than the person squatting to 20 degrees below parallel (and switching to parallel to see who's stronger).
To me, the mentality in this thread seems to be about practical strength, and so when talking about practical movements, we never really squat ATG, so it's not a movement that really needs to be given much attention. Even think about when you're lifting something, you're never really going below parallel with your squats. When you're pushing something, you're never really start pushing with your hands at your chest, etc.
So what constitutes "full RoM" is very fabricated - and all that we can easily generalize is that the more increase your RoM, the more unnatural positions you're reaching, and the easier it is to injure yourself in those positions. Some are injuries that everyone will receive, like trying to do a bench press with elbows completely flared out and going to your neck, or doing deadlifts with an arched back (even though your muscles are telling you nothing is wrong)... Then there's some exercises that depend quite a bit on genetics, and very precise form. Exercies depending on genetics are things like knee, elbow, and shoulder injuries, because slightly different geometries in the body can make a big difference. Going a bit past the RoM here can quickly injure you, so stuff like dips, incline bench press, flies, potentially squats if your knees are too far forward, lat raises, deadlifts, good mornings, etc.
Also the other difference between joint injuries and muscle injuries is that if you go a bit past your RoM on an exercise where you slightly pull a muscle, you'll feel a bad sore, but it's a lot easier to measure when you're going too far. Joint injuries on the other hand are a "you're fine you're fine, and then bam, nasty injury where you'll struggle to lift your arm up for 2 months". Also, unlike muscles, cartilage in your joints doesn't repair itself like your muscles. Think of it like you get only one joint, and you wear it out more and more. There's a reason why runners have far more knee injuries than their normal non-running counterparts. Muscles you can strengthen with exercise, joints much less so.
Injuring a joint like a shoulder leads to joint instability because the ligaments aren't all the exact exact same length they were originally. Doing exercise on a joint that has instability, is going to wear away your cartilage even faster (hence why the approach isn't the same as treating a muscle injury). Putting your joint in positions that it isn't designed well for will also wear it out faster. Ligaments and tendons don't increase strength anywhere as much as muscles with training either, and is also the primary reason why elite level bodybuilders and powerlifters reduce their range of motion as they lift heavier weights. Because maybe squatting 225lbs with ATG will be fine (or a slow detriment) to your joints, 400lbs might not be. And once you mess your joints up, you're never going to fix them (though strengthening them a bit is possible), they'll only ache more when you're older.
This is my motivation for saying some of this stuff is risky, and you might not notice the impacts for a while. For example, when I was doing dips, everything was completely okay for say 1 year, same as running injuries, or elbow injuries like tennis elbow. Sure, my form wasn't the best form you've ever seen, but by no means was it awful, and it still led to shoulder pain for me. If I do dips now, my body doesn't hurt, but I would imagine that if I kept it up for longer periods of time of increasing intensity and a large RoM, it would come back. My view is that you want to strengthen your muscles as much as you can, while putting the lowest possible stress on your joints that you can. It's for these reasons why I'm giving a big word of caution to people about dips, and using alternatives when they can.
@decaf See, when someone like you decaf was struggling with dips for a long time, chances are that many less dedicated people do too. Also, our brains are only able to respond to short-term pain, it's difficult for us to see whether we're injuring our body long-term. There's a good chance that if your body was so unhappy with your dips, and then you tilted your body 10-20 degrees towards vertical, it'll still be unhappy with something, just wont tell you yet.
I think people don't really know what full RoM means, like who decides what is full range of motion.
I can do my squats in socks, and my butt goes down around 10cm above the floor while keeping my back straight, is that considered full RoM? I can do dips (without pain) up to a 45 degree angle between my forearm and bicep, still full RoM? When doing dumbbell press I can go say 5cm below my chest, does that mean that every bench press I do is not full range of motion because my chest is in the way? I can do deadlifts while being on a block a foot off the ground, does that mean that all normal deadlifts I do are garbage?
Yes, my tone here is a tad aggressive, but for some stupid reason, people think that more range of motion = better. Our bodies aren't designed to be strong in really absurd positions. There isn't some magic line where RoM is crap, and then your RoM is perfect, it's all on a sliding scale. Exercises like dips are on the very edge of that continuum where strength can be developed, you go a bit lower, and you reach a point where strength can't be developed, and you injure yourself. Or you have injured yourself in the past, and that limits your new practical RoM, or you had not ideal genetics for it.
To me it's just absurd how we're talking about range of motion like you're fucked up if you can't do a certain movement. Like every single person here is fucked up when you're comparing themselves to a contortionist, or most weightlifters are pretty bad compared to the crossfit people.
Then there's things too consider, like generally speaking, when you increase range of motion, you're going to decrease strength on your lifts, for example squatting to parallel for 1 year versus squatting 20 degrees below parallel for 1 year, the person squatting to parallel will be quite a bit stronger than the person squatting to 20 degrees below parallel (and switching to parallel to see who's stronger).
To me, the mentality in this thread seems to be about practical strength, and so when talking about practical movements, we never really squat ATG, so it's not a movement that really needs to be given much attention. Even think about when you're lifting something, you're never really going below parallel with your squats. When you're pushing something, you're never really start pushing with your hands at your chest, etc.
So what constitutes "full RoM" is very fabricated - and all that we can easily generalize is that the more increase your RoM, the more unnatural positions you're reaching, and the easier it is to injure yourself in those positions. Some are injuries that everyone will receive, like trying to do a bench press with elbows completely flared out and going to your neck, or doing deadlifts with an arched back (even though your muscles are telling you nothing is wrong)... Then there's some exercises that depend quite a bit on genetics, and very precise form. Exercies depending on genetics are things like knee, elbow, and shoulder injuries, because slightly different geometries in the body can make a big difference. Going a bit past the RoM here can quickly injure you, so stuff like dips, incline bench press, flies, potentially squats if your knees are too far forward, lat raises, deadlifts, good mornings, etc.
Also the other difference between joint injuries and muscle injuries is that if you go a bit past your RoM on an exercise where you slightly pull a muscle, you'll feel a bad sore, but it's a lot easier to measure when you're going too far. Joint injuries on the other hand are a "you're fine you're fine, and then bam, nasty injury where you'll struggle to lift your arm up for 2 months". Also, unlike muscles, cartilage in your joints doesn't repair itself like your muscles. Think of it like you get only one joint, and you wear it out more and more. There's a reason why runners have far more knee injuries than their normal non-running counterparts. Muscles you can strengthen with exercise, joints much less so.
Injuring a joint like a shoulder leads to joint instability because the ligaments aren't all the exact exact same length they were originally. Doing exercise on a joint that has instability, is going to wear away your cartilage even faster (hence why the approach isn't the same as treating a muscle injury). Putting your joint in positions that it isn't designed well for will also wear it out faster. Ligaments and tendons don't increase strength anywhere as much as muscles with training either, and is also the primary reason why elite level bodybuilders and powerlifters reduce their range of motion as they lift heavier weights. Because maybe squatting 225lbs with ATG will be fine (or a slow detriment) to your joints, 400lbs might not be. And once you mess your joints up, you're never going to fix them (though strengthening them a bit is possible), they'll only ache more when you're older.
This is my motivation for saying some of this stuff is risky, and you might not notice the impacts for a while. For example, when I was doing dips, everything was completely okay for say 1 year, same as running injuries, or elbow injuries like tennis elbow. Sure, my form wasn't the best form you've ever seen, but by no means was it awful, and it still led to shoulder pain for me. If I do dips now, my body doesn't hurt, but I would imagine that if I kept it up for longer periods of time of increasing intensity and a large RoM, it would come back. My view is that you want to strengthen your muscles as much as you can, while putting the lowest possible stress on your joints that you can. It's for these reasons why I'm giving a big word of caution to people about dips, and using alternatives when they can.
@decaf See, when someone like you decaf was struggling with dips for a long time, chances are that many less dedicated people do too. Also, our brains are only able to respond to short-term pain, it's difficult for us to see whether we're injuring our body long-term. There's a good chance that if your body was so unhappy with your dips, and then you tilted your body 10-20 degrees towards vertical, it'll still be unhappy with something, just wont tell you yet.
If you have injuries/had injuries ofc you can be limited in certain ways. Not trying to pick on people who has limited ROM.
I mentioned bodyweight dips and pistol squats because they are not super stressful on the joints compared to a 500lbs backsquat.
I have a bad left knee, it flairs up easy when doing deep squats. I dont stop doing deep squats because of it but rather i choose a weight i know will not cause my knee to hurt and gradually work my way up higher as my body grows stronger.
If you do stuff your joints aren't prepared for, chances of injury increases. If someone has never done a dip below 90°, they should not just jump into it and try to get the hands to the shoulders. Do mobility work and slowly increase your rom. Its not a fast process
