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On June 08 2015 20:42 Steveling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 20:31 UdderChaos wrote:
Zidane and Messi is an interesting one. I think Messi probably is the greatest of all time, but he has a weakness, and that is lack of ability to carry a team. Messi is a player who can take a great team and make them unstoppable, he doesn't win games by himself as much but he makes the rest of the team preform vastly better. Zidane and maradonna on the other hand drag their teams, kicking and screaming, to title after title on both the world cup and club level. They have different impact on teams. Messi's distinct lack of performance in what is actually quite a good world cup side demonstrates this. Messi needs world class enablers playing together to allow him to shine, but when he has this he is simply unstoppable and on another level to anyone else. Zidane on the other hand could probably be put in the Argentinian squad and would have won them the world cup. This doesn't make Zidane better, don't get me wrong, but messi doesn't seem to be able to score insane goals and set up isnane goals without world class players who can read his intentions and either be on the end of his balls or link up with him in the way he invisions and needs. You put zidane in the side instead of messi the other night, and Juventus defiantly have a chance. This whole post is incredibly bad and doesn't deserve a response, especially the bits I highlighted. I mean, I just explained it above. sighs
Yea I dont even know why you would bother to tell him it doesnt deserve a response. Wall of text iz to painful for eyez.
Also I totally realised you pointed out the same thing about Zidane but I missed it. Oops.
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On June 08 2015 20:43 Faruko wrote:
Petit was godlike, he had the best hair in football
Did you forget ljungberg's blue mohawk? xD
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On June 08 2015 20:45 Steveling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 20:43 Faruko wrote:
Petit was godlike, he had the best hair in football Did you forget ljungberg's blue mohawk? xD
It was purple for the longest time before he went skinhead. Blue didnt last long if it was ever blue iirc
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On June 08 2015 20:45 Steveling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 20:43 Faruko wrote:
Petit was godlike, he had the best hair in football Did you forget ljungberg's blue mohawk? xD
LMAO I DID, hahaha that was awful (but better than most haircuts today)
Wasnt it red thou ?
Edit: ooh, it was purple, sorry im a man, i dont know colors.
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I think ljungberg honored all hues, think he even had a rainbow style one time.
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On June 08 2015 19:37 Pandemona wrote:
Lol steveling you open yourself up to some easy counters to Zidane vs Messi. Zidane champions league final goal is better than any goal Messi has scored in a champions league final. Then add in fact Zidane has a world cup title to his name and Messi does not and you have yourself a close comparison no matter what if Messi has 10000000 goals to his name domestically or not.
Also in that final on saturday Messi was pretty quiet if you ask me. Did one notable pass to Neymar to "start" the attack for 1st goal and that was about it, other than that he didn't get going.
These are pretty lame counters. Zidanes goal is probably the greatest goal in a CL final ? So what ? Ibra scores plenty of crazy goals.
Zidane has a world cup final to his name. So does Xavi and he has won more titles at the club level. And he practically invented the QB role for midfielders. Is Xavi now better than Zidane ?
As for this final. Messi did what he needed to do. And the second goal was pretty much setup by Messi so he being heavily involved in 2 out of 3 goals and drawing as much coverage as he did is plenty of work. But honestly this is pretty stupid.
I have seen all of these guys and it baffles me that some people find it hard to accept the things this man is doing. Revisionist treatment indeed.
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On June 08 2015 20:51 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 19:37 Pandemona wrote:
Lol steveling you open yourself up to some easy counters to Zidane vs Messi. Zidane champions league final goal is better than any goal Messi has scored in a champions league final. Then add in fact Zidane has a world cup title to his name and Messi does not and you have yourself a close comparison no matter what if Messi has 10000000 goals to his name domestically or not.
Also in that final on saturday Messi was pretty quiet if you ask me. Did one notable pass to Neymar to "start" the attack for 1st goal and that was about it, other than that he didn't get going. These are pretty lame counters. Zidanes goal is probably the greatest goal in a CL final ? So what ? Ibra scores plenty of crazy goals. Zidane has a world cup final to his name. So does Xavi and he has won more titles at the club level. And he practically invented the QB role for midfielders. Is Xavi now better than Zidane ? As for this final. Messi did what he needed to do. And the second goal was pretty much setup by Messi so he being heavily involved in 2 out of 3 goals and drawing as much coverage as he did is plenty of work.
It's quite an oxymoron, that when someone tries to undermine messi in whichever way, they bring up a previous messi season or goal and say "hah, messi in 2014 didn't do as well as messi in 2012 so X player's career is better, lolz".
It's silly.
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I think Xavi is better than Zidane, but I'm a huge Barça fan so eh.
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That's a hard one, I think zidane had more raw talent but xavi reinvented the midfield anchor, feck I'm forgetting the italian name for this position.
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On June 08 2015 20:55 Steveling wrote:
That's a hard one, I think zidane had more raw talent but xavi reinvented the midfield anchor, feck I'm forgetting the italian name for this position.
Well for me it boils down to things like how excited I was to see them play. Xavi as good as he was was a functional player and didnt make you tingle. You were in awe of the things he did but you know Zidane was just next level and I would pay twice as much to watch him play at his peak than maybe Xavi, if that makes sense.
Stylistically the closest player to Zidane is maybe, maybe Iniesta but that would be a poor mans comparison also. Neither one of them had the vibe or made you feel love for the game like watching Zidane did.
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I agree to this 100%, poor xavi as great as he was he just isn't so exciting, haha.
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Norway28929 Posts
here's my honest opinion on all this
Firstly, when looking at skill, current G will always be GOAT. So the only non-redundant GOAT discussion has to pertain to comparison to players from their own era.
Secondly, while the WC is the most important tournament, the idea that a player's legacy is largely determined by 7 games every 4 years rather than the 200+ games they play between championships, that is ridiculous. I don't even have to argue why, the numbers are right there. Even if stuff like 'form' or 'injuries' weren't real things, it would be stupid to judge someone based on the 7 games he plays with different team mates from normally rather than the 200 he plays with his regular team- football is a team sport. Adding to it that many top players have frequently been kinda out of shape during championships - which is natural, them being top players means that they have had more pressure, and normally more games played at higher intensity than other players for the rest of the season, and you get an even stronger argument for why it's dumb to judge players based on this.
Thirdly, there's some distance from Messi to Ronaldo. In terms of magic, in terms of what they bring to a team, but especially in terms of success measured by trophies. However, if there was no Messi, Ronaldo would be GOAT. Until these two showed up, a world class striker would score 25-30 goals per season. Now Ronaldo has more than 50, 5 years in a row. These two players have redefined the expectation of what a star player can be. Neither have a WC victory, but I can't see how it matters at all.
In the Pele era it made sense for WC to be the most important, top players were spread all over, and for many players it wasn't really possible to compare them outside the WC. Now, every top player plays in Europe, and every top player plays Champions league every year. Historically, it makes sense for the WC to have become the final boss of any great player, but it makes no sense now. Hell, in the previous 5 world cups, the 'best player' award has been given to a player that didn't even win the tournament! 2014 - Messi. 2010 - Forlan. 2006 - Zidane. 2002 - Kahn. 1998 - Ronaldo.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On June 08 2015 20:51 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 19:37 Pandemona wrote:
Lol steveling you open yourself up to some easy counters to Zidane vs Messi. Zidane champions league final goal is better than any goal Messi has scored in a champions league final. Then add in fact Zidane has a world cup title to his name and Messi does not and you have yourself a close comparison no matter what if Messi has 10000000 goals to his name domestically or not.
Also in that final on saturday Messi was pretty quiet if you ask me. Did one notable pass to Neymar to "start" the attack for 1st goal and that was about it, other than that he didn't get going. These are pretty lame counters. Zidanes goal is probably the greatest goal in a CL final ? So what ? Ibra scores plenty of crazy goals. Zidane has a world cup final to his name. So does Xavi and he has won more titles at the club level. And he practically invented the QB role for midfielders. Is Xavi now better than Zidane ? As for this final. Messi did what he needed to do. And the second goal was pretty much setup by Messi so he being heavily involved in 2 out of 3 goals and drawing as much coverage as he did is plenty of work. But honestly this is pretty stupid. I have seen all of these guys and it baffles me that some people find it hard to accept the things this man is doing. Revisionist treatment indeed.
Im replying in the same way Steveling does to "counter" argument. Im not saying Zidane is the greatest of all time if you read the post i said it was so easy to counter Steveling argument that messi is again goat of all time cuz what he did in final blahblah. Which is bollocks because he did hardly anything in that final and could argue it was more than a quiet game for him.
But adding to fact the world cup argument is "bad/annoying" whatever, whether that is true or not the fact is he has a team around him more than capable of winning a world cup on top of being the best player in the world and he has yet to do it and is running out of time. Di Maria Lavezzi Aguero Higuain Tevez Messi Pastore Zabaleta Garay are not shite players are they. The French team that Zidane won it with was just as good as those listed if not had less attacking prowess and better defensive players. Also Henry at international level was no where near great i would say average. Plus that 2002 world cup he was apart of that 
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Norway28929 Posts
honestly the last player who was as dominant in his own era as Messi was, and as Ronaldo would be if not for Messi, is Maradona. Zidane doesn't belong in the same discussion. But Maradona won two league trophies and one world cup. His peak skill was heads and shoulders above his competition, but he didn't keep it up for very long. Messi and Ronaldo have dominated for the better part of a decade by now.
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You are beyond reason mate, either that or you don't have a clue about football.
How can you say that the miracle french generation is on par with this absurdly average argentina? lol
And even the few players that are indeed world class like aguero/higuain/di maria were absolutely shocking in the WC.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
But if you ask Argentinians to rate top 3 footballs of all time they go;
Di Stefano
Maradona
Messi
On June 08 2015 21:11 Steveling wrote:
You are beyond reason mate, either that or you don't have a clue about football.
How can you say that the miracle french generation is on par with this absurdly average argentina? lol
And even the few players that are indeed world class like aguero/higuain/di maria were absolutely shocking in the WC.
So where half the 98 squad which went to Japan/South Korea for world cup? Your point is stupid if my point is stupid.
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On June 08 2015 21:11 Pandemona wrote:
But if you ask Argentinians to rate top 3 footballs of all time they go;
Di Stefano
Maradona
Messi
Di stefano?
Mate your hate towards messi and maradona is palpable.
The argies don't give a crud about di stefano.
The newer generations all hold messi in higher regard than maradona, the old generations that watched maradona prefer him, well some of them, for example the video I posted earlier was made by an old argie journalist who thinks messi is the goat.
Your fantasies are not true.
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On June 08 2015 21:08 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 20:51 Rebs wrote:On June 08 2015 19:37 Pandemona wrote:
Lol steveling you open yourself up to some easy counters to Zidane vs Messi. Zidane champions league final goal is better than any goal Messi has scored in a champions league final. Then add in fact Zidane has a world cup title to his name and Messi does not and you have yourself a close comparison no matter what if Messi has 10000000 goals to his name domestically or not.
Also in that final on saturday Messi was pretty quiet if you ask me. Did one notable pass to Neymar to "start" the attack for 1st goal and that was about it, other than that he didn't get going. These are pretty lame counters. Zidanes goal is probably the greatest goal in a CL final ? So what ? Ibra scores plenty of crazy goals. Zidane has a world cup final to his name. So does Xavi and he has won more titles at the club level. And he practically invented the QB role for midfielders. Is Xavi now better than Zidane ? As for this final. Messi did what he needed to do. And the second goal was pretty much setup by Messi so he being heavily involved in 2 out of 3 goals and drawing as much coverage as he did is plenty of work. But honestly this is pretty stupid. I have seen all of these guys and it baffles me that some people find it hard to accept the things this man is doing. Revisionist treatment indeed. Im replying in the same way Steveling does to "counter" argument. Im not saying Zidane is the greatest of all time if you read the post i said it was so easy to counter Steveling argument that messi is again goat of all time cuz what he did in final blahblah. Which is bollocks because he did hardly anything in that final and could argue it was more than a quiet game for him. But adding to fact the world cup argument is "bad/annoying" whatever, whether that is true or not the fact is he has a team around him more than capable of winning a world cup on top of being the best player in the world and he has yet to do it and is running out of time. Di Maria Lavezzi Aguero Higuain Tevez Messi Pastore Zabaleta Garay are not shite players are they. The French team that Zidane won it with was just as good as those listed if not had less attacking prowess and better defensive players. Also Henry at international level was no where near great i would say average. Plus that 2002 world cup he was apart of that
And I didnt accuse you fo saying Zidane was either (seems like im not the one struggling to read posts properly). I just told you your counters were lame and then provided examples as to why the parameters you were offering were flawed.
Maybe those players arent shit. But they didnt particularly show it. The French team that Zidane with has bonafide legends of the game. Its not even a comparison. The only person in their league is maybe Aguero. Also your sample set is god aweful as world cups tend to be. As Drone mentioned. I dont even see how world cups are a relevant factor when there is so much higher level football on consistent display.
Apparently unless Messi is beating 5 players every 20 mins and making goal scoring chance after goal scoring chance and scoring a few he is having a quiet game. A victim of his own genius and expectation.
An assist and the pass that spread the play is obviousy not enough contribution, attracting coverage from a minimum of two players per game is also ineffective. Quiet game indeed.
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Norway28929 Posts
Pande, who says that? Because I just googled argentinian top 3 football players and then I found a bunch of compiled lists. Every list had Messi/Maradona as 1&2. Di Stefano was #3 on 3 of them, #8 on one of them, and not in the list on one of them. Well Messi had one where he was also only #9, but that one was from 2010, so it kinda makes sense. (and that was the list where Di Stefano wasn't even present, so whatever.) Like, I'm not disputing that you've met or talked to some argentinian who thought that Di Stefano was #1, but you're gonna have to present some evidence to make the claim that this is the general Argentinian opinion or whatever.
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Argies consider kempes, batistuta and ardiles the top players after messi/maradona in whichever order.
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EPT
