On February 12 2015 00:17 RvB wrote: Louis van Gaal has always been a joke against the press and in press conferences. It just shows nobody really knew him in England if they expected anything else. Next time don't take him so seriously and just watch it to get entertained since that's what I've (and a lot of Dutchies with me) have learned to do.
He's a great manager he just needs a year or so to build it all up. I also doubt he orders his midfielders to don't try risky passes, he's been playing offensive football since he started coaching.
yeah his problems with players and the media have never been due to the absence of an attacking brand of football. its more the my way or the high way mentality.
I still remember cursing my brains out at him when he benched Rivaldo because Rivaldo refused to play on the lest side of midfield and wanted to shadow the striker.
It was all the more sweet when he was forced to bring him on and then Rivaldo saved the game. Ofcourse this meant his stay was no longer tenable. But having followed him since then he does the same thing everywhere. Hes an energy drink manager like Mourinho. Only Mou is much better than him.
Yeah I don't think you can call van Gaal a Mourinho type coach. At all the clubs he's managed, succesful or otherwise, he has always been the one to initiate playstyles/strategies for years to come with great success. He's also the type to try out youngsters and throw them in front of the wolves straight away (like Pat McNair/Wilson this season).
First he did it at Ajax, winning everything with an extremely young team and basically revolutionizing the footballing world. They pretty much dominated everything in 1995 and 1996 until a doped up Juventus team stopped them in the CL of 1996. Then everyone got sold after the Bosman arrest and that was over.
Then at Barça he definitely did good work but eventually he was victimized for bringing in too many Dutch players I think? And that whole conflict with Rivaldo. He did good there though I think.
Then he fucked up with Netherlands with a washed up group. Don't know what happened with his second term at Barça but I'm guessing it wasn't that great . Obviously the whole structure of the club at that time was in shambles and from that point on they fixed it which led to Rijkaard/Guardiola era.
After that he took AZ in the Netherlands to their first league title in like.. 27 years with great attacking play. They had good players but to do that with a team that is not PSV/Feyenoord/Ajax is very impressive.
Then Bayern.. I do think he provided the blueprint of what they've grown to become.
Long story short, he's a builder and a slow starter. Ajax didn't win much in his first years as manager, same with Bayern. Man U fans will have to have patience. I also think that this is the first time in his career that he has to work with an entirely new squad (buying a lot of players) so he'll need time to find his stride in what works best for the team. I'm not the biggest fan of the man, but no-one should doubt his qualities as a manager.
On February 12 2015 01:35 sharkie wrote: Van gaal shaped the bayern of today more than any other coach... how is he a energy manager wtf
First of all thats BS.
Heynckes teams played like Heynckes teams. Sure Van Gaals team was the most possession oriented Bayern has played in my time watching them but that is just his standard dutch roots, and things players learn will stay with them.
Heynckes has been around alot longer than Klop. The way Dortmund played at their peak is nothing new, it just needed a certain level of skill and coaching to employ it along with the calibre of players he had also developed and put together.
That is Klop's greatest success in my mind. As soon as his players level has dropped the style has exploded in his face.
Guardialo's Bayern play like a Guardiola team, its rather painfully obvious so I dont know what shaping Van Gaal did that is relevant to this current team,
It would play this way whether Van Gaal was there or not. Granted they were better equipped having had a similar experience but Guardiola's methods are totally different to Van Gaals.
Nor were they a particularly impressive team at the European level.
Yes they made a CL final riding Robbens wonderstrikes against Fiorentina and United, and the fact that Patrice Evra has 2 square feet. Need I remind you that even Chelsea managed to win it thanks to the greatness of certain individuals.
He is an energy drink manager because he will come in with a shot in the arm to achieve some level of success and then he will find a bridge leading out, cross it and then burn it behind him..
Granted his teams start slow but hes mostly won as soon as he has come into teams in the last decade or AZ (improved a shit ton), Bayern, Barca all won pretty much as soon as he showed up. Like I said I dont know much about his time as Ajax but I will give him credit for it because it was watching the dutch team full of players he produced that made me fall in love with the game.
I will admit that he offers younger players more than Mou does, but again thats dutch roots. I didnt say he is Mourinho stylistically. I said in the context of a club looking for a coach he doesnt offer much staying power.
I believe Mou will change that at Chelsea, Van Gaal probably never will.
edit: I dont know much about Van Gaal and Ajax. Didnt see it, only hear or read about it along with some random footage particularly, of Jari Litmanen killing it
On February 12 2015 04:09 Twisted wrote: van Gaal is one of those managers that doesn't shy away from bringing on 18 year old strikers in a CL final that eventually win him the CL <3
The thing is, I don't agree with your assessment that he's the type of manager who leaves a club in shambles after he had his success with it. The reason why he's a slow starter is because he wants to change the entire philosophy of a club, not just the first team. He wants all the teams within the club to play a certain style and it takes time for a club to become accustomed to it. Also the players in the first team have to get used to it. Managers you describe like Mourinho look at their squad and choose the playstyle that fits the players best. van Gaal expects the players to do what he thinks even though they've been doing something else their entire career.
If that club keeps up with that philosophy after van Gaal leaves, his successor can build on that if van Gaal has had success with it. This is also why many were doubting that he could be a good national team coach for the Netherlands. He wanted so badly to impose the 4-3-3 which didn't work at all even though it's the Dutch way of footballing. Eventually, a few weeks before the WC he caved and he came up with the 5-3-2 which worked for us due to Robben being godlike. His reasoning was that he doesn't have enough time with the national team to invoke his philosophy (hate this word but can't think of any other to use).
I also don't think using/developing young players from the youth academy is typically a Dutch thing and if it is, that's a quality he possesses and should've be dismissed for 'a Dutch thing'. It's more of an Eredivisie thing because we can't do anything else due to the money involved. van Gaal has gotten a lot of young players to the first team that turned out to become world beaters. At Ajax with Seedorf, Kluivert, Bergkamp, Overmars, Davids, van der Sar, de Boer brothers etc., Barça with Iniesta/Xavi and Bayern with Müller, Badstuber etc. Bayern fans can probably add to that list. Of course this can be coincidence and those players would've likely made it on their own, but he's still the one to give them the chance. An 'energydrink manager' just buys a bunch of players, uses the best strategy with those players to win in short-term and has success with it. I don't think you're giving van Gaal enough credit if you're calling him that.
LVG also predicted Barça and Spain would rek face thanks to Barça's masia talent and was fundamental in giving minutes of play to Iniesta when he was a total nobody.
On February 12 2015 04:25 Twisted wrote: The thing is, I don't agree with your assessment that he's the type of manager who leaves a club in shambles after he had his success with it. The reason why he's a slow starter is because he wants to change the entire philosophy of a club, not just the first team. He wants all the teams within the club to play a certain style and it takes time for a club to become accustomed to it. Also the players in the first team have to get used to it. Managers you describe like Mourinho look at their squad and choose the playstyle that fits the players best. van Gaal expects the players to do what he thinks even though they've been doing something else their entire career.
If that club keeps up with that philosophy after van Gaal leaves, his successor can build on that if van Gaal has had success with it. This is also why many were doubting that he could be a good national team coach for the Netherlands. He wanted so badly to impose the 4-3-3 which didn't work at all even though it's the Dutch way of footballing. Eventually, a few weeks before the WC he caved and he came up with the 5-3-2 which worked for us due to Robben being godlike. His reasoning was that he doesn't have enough time with the national team to invoke his philosophy (hate this word but can't think of any other to use).
I also don't think using/developing young players from the youth academy is typically a Dutch thing and if it is, that's a quality he possesses and should've be dismissed for 'a Dutch thing'. It's more of an Eredivisie thing because we can't do anything else due to the money involved. van Gaal has gotten a lot of young players to the first team that turned out to become world beaters. At Ajax with Seedorf, Kluivert, Bergkamp, Overmars, Davids, van der Sar, de Boer brothers etc., Barça with Iniesta/Xavi and Bayern with Müller, Badstuber etc. Bayern fans can probably add to that list. Of course this can be coincidence and those players would've likely made it on their own, but he's still the one to give them the chance. An 'energydrink manager' just buys a bunch of players, uses the best strategy with those players to win in short-term and has success with it. I don't think you're giving van Gaal enough credit if you're calling him that.
I never said they were similar stylistically. Infact I pointed out the same thing you are saying. Mourinho is pragmatic and Van Gaal has some pragmatism but generally has a philosophy and sticks to it. Still he is not as stubborn+ Show Spoiler +
(he can put up all the charts he wants, they were resorting to long balls against west ham, its just that simple)
about it. Not the first time United has done it, not the last time. Nothing wrong with it either.
When I say its a dutch thing I kinda mean Eredivisier, or dutch club footballing culture if you will The Cruyff school even. My apologies if I sounded to general. I figured given the context I could just say dutch and it would make snese.
similar but in terms of the way their stories turn out at clubs its the same.
Nor did I ever say that they leave clubs in shambles. I said he burns his bridges back. I dont think Mourinho has left any of his clubs in shambles either. Thats mostly their own doing.
Using younger players is a dutch thing, but not because of some conscious choice, but because a lot of clubs hád to to stay alive. Van gaal would've given young players a chance regardless of the country he or the player would've come from. That's why I think van gaal is brilliant, and the dutch in general are not (on that particular part of coaching a club).
On February 12 2015 04:52 Yorbon wrote: Using younger players is a dutch thing, but not because of some conscious choice, but because a lot of clubs hád to to stay alive. Van gaal would've given young players a chance regardless of the country he or the player would've come from. That's why I think van gaal is brilliant, and the dutch in general are not (on that particular part of coaching a club).
Well I disagree outside of Ajax he has really "developed" players because he has some unique quality of giving youngsters chances. You could say that for lots of managers.
Lots of youngsters get opportunities at alot of teams. You see it all the time. He happens to have a better success rate with some of those players kicking on but i'm not entirely sure all the credit for that goes to him.
The cultures thats developed as far as player developement is concerned is more a concious choice that encompasses the whole organization rather than on the whims of just the manager. Hes important, but hes not the only one who has to buy into it.
Also this Chelsea Everton game both keepers are so hot. And Howards right post is charmed, everything is being pulled just outside of it.
On February 12 2015 04:52 Yorbon wrote: Using younger players is a dutch thing, but not because of some conscious choice, but because a lot of clubs hád to to stay alive. Van gaal would've given young players a chance regardless of the country he or the player would've come from. That's why I think van gaal is brilliant, and the dutch in general are not (on that particular part of coaching a club).
Well I disagree outside of Ajax he has really "developed" players because he has some unique quality of giving youngsters chances. You could say that for lots of managers.
Lots of youngsters get opportunities at alot of teams. You see it all the time. He happens to have a better success rate with some of those players kicking on but i'm not entirely sure all the credit for that goes to him.
The cultures thats developed as far as player developement is concerned is more a concious choice that encompasses the whole organization rather than on the whims of just the manager. Hes important, but hes not the only one who has to buy into it.
Also this Chelsea Everton game both keepers are so hot. And Howards right post is charmed, everything is being pulled just outside of it.
I don't really know a lot of coaches who give youngsters the same opportunities like Van Gaal. Care to name a few?
On February 12 2015 04:52 Yorbon wrote: Using younger players is a dutch thing, but not because of some conscious choice, but because a lot of clubs hád to to stay alive. Van gaal would've given young players a chance regardless of the country he or the player would've come from. That's why I think van gaal is brilliant, and the dutch in general are not (on that particular part of coaching a club).
Well I disagree outside of Ajax he has really "developed" players because he has some unique quality of giving youngsters chances. You could say that for lots of managers.
Lots of youngsters get opportunities at alot of teams. You see it all the time. He happens to have a better success rate with some of those players kicking on but i'm not entirely sure all the credit for that goes to him.
The cultures thats developed as far as player developement is concerned is more a concious choice that encompasses the whole organization rather than on the whims of just the manager. Hes important, but hes not the only one who has to buy into it.
Also this Chelsea Everton game both keepers are so hot. And Howards right post is charmed, everything is being pulled just outside of it.
I don't really know a lot of coaches who give youngsters the same opportunities like Van Gaal. Care to name a few?
Sure Wenger, Fergie, Sacchi (Milan), Del Bosque (with his home grown crop of the 90's) off the top of my head.
Need I even mention Pep? So thats a healthy list of before and afters.
Really anyone whose been a youth team coach at the clubs they've managed bring people through the ranks.
I might be misunderstanding you a fair bit to be fair . I'm just gonna assume that on most points we agree because we pretty much always do.
In other news, lately I've been so joyous watching Barça again. Haven't felt like that about them since Guardiola left ^^
Yeah, for all the criticism I gave to lucho, it seems that a) his constant rotation finally started paying off, now all players and all possible line ups click with each other and b)keeping suarez to a permanent cf position was the correct decision to help messi break away from the 4-man zoning when he plays centrally.
I might be misunderstanding you a fair bit to be fair . I'm just gonna assume that on most points we agree because we pretty much always do.
In other news, lately I've been so joyous watching Barça again. Haven't felt like that about them since Guardiola left ^^
Yeah, for all the criticism I gave to lucho, it seems that a) his constant rotation finally started paying off, now all players and all possible line ups click with each other and b)keeping suarez to a permanent cf position was the correct decision to help messi break away from the 4-man zoning when he plays centrally.
Yeah the team is fun to watch. I think a big reason is teams dont fear them so much anymore and tend to attack them and you see Barca with more space to work with.
I wish Suarez would score more. Feels like he has nearly as many assist as Fabregas this season with Neymar and Messi enjoying the goals.
Aww man give it to Suarez.
And while we are busy disagreeing I dont think its fair to say Neymar missed when the keeper should get credit for saving it Shite pen though.
Red card for Adrian! Oh, dear. Probably the right call and purely instinct. Gets himself in trouble and dives on the ball while it's outside the box to prevent Mané from stealing it.
EPT
. Obviously the whole structure of the club at that time was in shambles and from that point on they fixed it which led to Rijkaard/Guardiola era.
. I'm just gonna assume that on most points we agree because we pretty much always do.
