2014 - 2015 Football Thread - Page 330

On November 02 2014 05:39 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Dortmund played a pretty good game the first half, but had no ideas in the 2nd half and the Grosskreutz-Kagawa substitution was very questionable. They're still really missing the likes of Gundogan, Sahin, and Kuba. Mkhi continues to fall short of his potential, and the defensive midfield just can't be trusted. If Freiburg win tomorrow, Dortmund will be tied for last place (only ahead of Werder Bremen on goal differential).

Dortmund's problems are simple and SHOULD be solved in time to get them into a CL spot.

They just can't play against a set defense that parks themselves behind the ball and counters. They have absolutely no inspiration or creativity when facing that. It's obvious when comparing their CL games + this game against the earlier losses in the BL. They just need to learn how to break down a defense with possession and quality passes and then they should be able to climb the table quite easily.

Aside from that, they need the injury woes to stop. I have no idea where Gundogan was today, but he, Kuba, and Sahin all need to get back, Hummels needs to get back in form (and not be injured), and Grosskreutz either needs to get in form or not come off the bench as much (he's looked HORRIBLE for the past few weeks).

Unfortunately, there's no place for new teams to break into the European elite these days, and Dortmund will continue to get picked apart by big-money clubs; Reus will probably go to Bayern next year, Hummels will stay for a couple more and then go to a big-money club somewhere else, Gundogan will probably leave in that time as well, and Dortmund will be left with 2nd-tier players that show a lot of potential and promise but can't step up to the same level as the world class players that get thrown around the European market. Dortmund's been in decline since 2012, and there simply isn't room for a club to become any kind of European power (and therefore be able to keep superstars) unless they're bankrolled. They'll end up back where the were before, in the same spot that Schalke is (making European competition often enough, but not being a true contender).

I'm pretty sure I called it two years ago before Bayern won the Treble, but Bayern is going to win the German Double for a minimum of 5 straight years, and I'm sticking to that prediction.

On November 02 2014 07:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:


Obviously teams can win once in a while. My point is that there isn't room for a non-bankrolled team to establish themselves as a consistent elite team.

While they would've made some more money by selling Lewandowski, that would have put them in danger of completely tanking last season. Furthermore, the money made from Lewandowski wouldn't have shored up that much. Dortmund simply doesn't have the funds to pay for world class players' transfer fees + their wage demands, and that's why they can't keep the top players. A one-time influx of 20-30 million from Lewandowski wouldn't magically change that. It's not that Dortmund isn't "good" at keeping the top players (which is the most ridiculous line that you only hear from fans of rich clubs to try to justify things in their own minds), they just don't have the money, and no one does except for your Real/Barca/Chelsea/Man U/Bayern/etc. This is why you see teams win the league once in a while (Stuttgart, Werder Bremen, Wolfsburg) or make a good run in the CL (Schalke) and then disappear a few years later; income in the football world is a zero-sum game, and these elite clubs have gobbled up most of it, so the only influx of cash that is available that could keep a team at the elite level is from rich owners.

Dortmund doesn't have the name, stability, or cash to bring in top-tier players, and if they hadn't bought anyone (like Immobile or Mkhi), they would be in just as bad of a position being criticized for not spending their income. BVB's done pretty much the best they could (except for not getting anything for Lewandowski). Unless they hit bank and players like Immobile/Ramos/Aubameyang/Mkhi hit some fantastic form and continue a new Golden Age for them (probably not going to happen) or world-class players somehow have a change of heart and say they care more about loyalty to a club/building something than easy money and easy trophies (they won't), Dortmund will inevitably go downward and their's nothing they can do about it.

On November 02 2014 07:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:


Obviously teams can win once in a while. My point is that there isn't room for a non-bankrolled team to establish themselves as a consistent elite team.

While they would've made some more money by selling Lewandowski, that would have put them in danger of completely tanking last season. Furthermore, the money made from Lewandowski wouldn't have shored up that much. Dortmund simply doesn't have the funds to pay for world class players' transfer fees + their wage demands, and that's why they can't keep the top players. A one-time influx of 20-30 million from Lewandowski wouldn't magically change that. It's not that Dortmund isn't "good" at keeping the top players (which is the most ridiculous line that you only hear from fans of rich clubs to try to justify things in their own minds), they just don't have the money, and no one does except for your Real/Barca/Chelsea/Man U/Bayern/etc. This is why you see teams win the league once in a while (Stuttgart, Werder Bremen, Wolfsburg) or make a good run in the CL (Schalke) and then disappear a few years later; income in the football world is a zero-sum game, and these elite clubs have gobbled up most of it, so the only influx of cash that is available that could keep a team at the elite level is from rich owners.

Dortmund doesn't have the name, stability, or cash to bring in top-tier players, and if they hadn't bought anyone (like Immobile or Mkhi), they would be in just as bad of a position being criticized for not spending their income. BVB's done pretty much the best they could (except for not getting anything for Lewandowski). Unless they hit bank and players like Immobile/Ramos/Aubameyang/Mkhi hit some fantastic form and continue a new Golden Age for them (probably not going to happen) or world-class players somehow have a change of heart and say they care more about loyalty to a club/building something than easy money and easy trophies (they won't), Dortmund will inevitably go downward and their's nothing they can do about it.

On November 02 2014 06:42 Micro_Jackson wrote:


Gündogan was out for over a year, no way he can hold up physical against Bayern.

I disagree that you cant win as a "smaller" Tier 1 team as Athletico and Dortmund proved (both were minutes away from winning CL) but whats more the case is that you have a certain timing window to win that is smaller then for Real or Bayern and that you cant make mistakes.

Götze for example had a pretty mediocre year last season but Bayern can affort to have a 37 million 22 year old having an off year, Dortmund cant.
Not selling Lewandowski for 20-30 million last year was a mistake, with that money they might have a Benzema or Giroud class player instead of Ramos and Immobile. Speaking off i think 45 million for Mikitharian and Immobile was a bit too much.
If they sell Reus next year due to the exit clause they will have made 25 million out of their arguable 2 best players thats just not enough for a team in Dortmunds position.

From their point you cant play the "we want our best players to stay" game like the big names you have to take advantage of the crazy overheated transfermarket and dont give away half your world class roster for half a James.

On November 02 2014 19:50 Dingodile wrote:


BvB biggest problem is money. 23men-squad "only" costs 75M€, same level as champions league pot4 teams. Highest earner at BvB is Reus with 2,5M€ (incentive not included). Bayerns XI cost already ~90Mio yearly salary. No wonder that Götze prefers a 9M€ annual salary than 2,5M€. Lewandowski earns 9M€ too.
Also forget Benzema or Giroud, they wont come because of pretty low annual salary at BvB.

On November 02 2014 20:33 Greg_J wrote:
I'm not that knowledgeable about German football so forgive me for asking stupid questions. Dortmund has the highest attendance in domestic Football. So why can't they be a top class club?

Basically my understanding is that German clubs have to be majority owned by the fans and as a result have reasonable priced tickets and aren’t allowed deficit spending. Which is great for German football domestically and means you get much more affordable games and great attendances and atmosphere at games and hopefully stable clubs not bankrupting themselves for short term success. Even if it has the effect of making it harder for German clubs to compete with foreign clubs that operate on bankrolled deficit spending. So very largely my question is how come Munchen are so much wealthier than the rest of the Bundesliga if they have to operate under the same conditions and with a lower Attendance than Dortmund. Are they just a big brand around Europe selling more merchandise?

On November 02 2014 20:33 Greg_J wrote:
I'm not that knowledgeable about German football so forgive me for asking stupid questions. Dortmund has the highest attendance in domestic Football. So why can't they be a top class club?

Basically my understanding is that German clubs have to be majority owned by the fans and as a result have reasonable priced tickets and aren’t allowed deficit spending. Which is great for German football domestically and means you get much more affordable games and great attendances and atmosphere at games and hopefully stable clubs not bankrupting themselves for short term success. Even if it has the effect of making it harder for German clubs to compete with foreign clubs that operate on bankrolled deficit spending. So very largely my question is how come Munchen are so much wealthier than the rest of the Bundesliga if they have to operate under the same conditions and with a lower Attendance than Dortmund. Are they just a big brand around Europe selling more merchandise?

On November 02 2014 20:33 Greg_J wrote:
I'm not that knowledgeable about German football so forgive me for asking stupid questions. Dortmund has the highest attendance in domestic Football. So why can't they be a top class club?

Basically my understanding is that German clubs have to be majority owned by the fans and as a result have reasonable priced tickets and aren’t allowed deficit spending. Which is great for German football domestically and means you get much more affordable games and great attendances and atmosphere at games and hopefully stable clubs not bankrupting themselves for short term success. Even if it has the effect of making it harder for German clubs to compete with foreign clubs that operate on bankrolled deficit spending. So very largely my question is how come Munchen are so much wealthier than the rest of the Bundesliga if they have to operate under the same conditions and with a lower Attendance than Dortmund. Are they just a big brand around Europe selling more merchandise?

On November 02 2014 11:27 BeaTeR wrote:

fuck. looks like you are right