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RowdierBob
Australia13358 Posts
Assuming they don't hire Vinny, I don't think the Grizz will hurt too much from a coaching change. If anything, it could add a bit more to their offence which was pretty awful under Hollins. Hollins developed that team to a point which he deserves a lot of credit for but I'd agree that team could benefit from a new coaching direction. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13358 Posts
On June 11 2013 08:26 Jibba wrote: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9363105/sources-maurice-cheeks-detroit-pistons-agree-contract Son of a bitch. :| Especially as the Grizz confirm they're not re-hiring Hollins (also a really dumb move.) FUUUUUUUU Mo's back, baby! A pretty lacklustre hire for the Pistons but I imagine they hired Mo on the cheap and gave him a mandate to just play and develop the young guys. He's a decent choice to help Drummond, in particular, develop defensively. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On June 11 2013 11:48 RowdierBob wrote: Am I the only one that thinks Hollins is overrated as a coach? Actually, overrated if probably harsh but I don't think the Grizz are doing the wrong thing letting him go. Assuming they don't hire Vinny, I don't think the Grizz will hurt too much from a coaching change. If anything, it could add a bit more to their offence which was pretty awful under Hollins. Hollins developed that team to a point which he deserves a lot of credit for but I'd agree that team could benefit from a new coaching direction. Yeah. Look at what he did to keep the Grizzlies offense rolling after losing Rudy Gay. Yeah overrated or whatever but dude was the centerpiece of your offense, your #1 option, your primary ballhandler, not to mention he could kind of shoot the 3, something the Grizz have nothing of. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On June 11 2013 12:11 DystopiaX wrote: Yeah. Look at what he did to keep the Grizzlies offense rolling after losing Rudy Gay. Yeah overrated or whatever but dude was the centerpiece of your offense, your #1 option, your primary ballhandler, not to mention he could kind of shoot the 3, something the Grizz have nothing of. Randolph or Gay had to go, too much lane cloggin. The problem was the pieces they got in return for gay literally did nothing to help their offense lol | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13358 Posts
The Grizz desperately need to pick up some outside shooting this off-season. Tony Allen and Prince as starters was just too brutal to their offence (as good as it made their D). I think someone like Ben Gordon or Korver could help them as FA signings this off-season. Heck, they might even benefit from bringing back OJ at the right price. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On June 11 2013 11:48 RowdierBob wrote: Am I the only one that thinks Hollins is overrated as a coach? Actually, overrated if probably harsh but I don't think the Grizz are doing the wrong thing letting him go. I don't think so, he did really well with what he had available. They need some decent shooting options (shame they let Mayo go) and no amount of coaching is going to make up for having Poindexter as your main scorer from distance. I wouldn't mind seeing them go after someone like Reddick. Hollins developed a really competitive team that were unlucky to get swept in the conference finals. I have no clue how they can blame Hollins for not making it any further. No shame in losing to the Spurs and someone like Brooks (non-existent system relying on superstars) needs firing far more than Hollins. I agree with the Clippers on ditching Vinny but feel both the nuggets/grizz were too quick on the trigger. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13358 Posts
People will disagree with me but I think OKC would have beaten them with Westbrook playing that series. While the Grizz did really well this year, they also benefited a lot from injuries to key opposition players (Griffin first, Westbrrok second). In fact once they played a healthy team in the Spurs, they got trounced (badly). I had them pegged as a second round type team and I'd stick by that assertion. They have potential to get better but need a change in direction: personnel and roster wise. They have a lot of offensive flaws that is systemic of Hollins' style and which is contributing to their somewhat limited ceiling. If they hire the right coach (questions is retread or someone new. Karl or Sampson for example?) and make a couple of astute roster additions then they could get a whole lot better. The Grizz FO is proving itself to be one of the best in the NBA though IMO. They weren't afraid to dump Gay in the midst of a Playoff run and they're now putting their balls on the line to take the team to the next level by not re-signing Hollins. It would've been easy to take the obvious option of retaining Hollins and going back to the second round next year, but I'd argue the Grizz FO has made a tough call for the right reasons in order to make a run at being a genuine contender. They obviously have a plan in place and will be interesting to see where they go from here with their coach and roster. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On June 11 2013 12:47 RowdierBob wrote: Gay was a net neutral to that team and his departure showed it. Didn't impact a game nearly enough to justify his bloated anchor of a contract. The Grizz desperately need to pick up some outside shooting this off-season. Tony Allen and Prince as starters was just too brutal to their offence (as good as it made their D). I think someone like Ben Gordon or Korver could help them as FA signings this off-season. Heck, they might even benefit from bringing back OJ at the right price. he was a net neutral because Hollins did smart things to the offense after he left (not just giving Conley the ball in Gay-type situations, but also doing more Gasol facilitating from the high post and stuff like that. If he didn't then it wouldn't have been "net neutral" at all. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13358 Posts
If LeBron leaves the Heat there'd be no form of retooling they could do to cover his impact on the game. But with Rudy Gay, whatever they lost on offence (not much) Prince more than covered it up on defence and for half(?) the cost (not to mention it opened up more touches and shots for Conley, Gasol and ZBo). My point being is that Gay just isn't an impact player (well, at least one that his contract would justify). He's an empty stats guy through and through. He didn't hurt the Grizz, but he didn't justify taking ~$19 mill of the team's cap. He's a poor man's Melo and that isn't saying much. edit: Don't want to rag of Rudy too much. I don't hate him as a player and if you could have him at the right price and right situation he could be a plus. But he just didn't fit that Grizz roster and have much of an impact on the fortunes of that team. Dare I say, the Grizz had their two best off-seasons when Rudy wasn't playing... | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On June 11 2013 14:01 RowdierBob wrote: That's my point though. They were able to re-tool the offence so it was like Gay never existed. That's the very definition of a net-neutral when your teams loses nothing by letting you go. If LeBron leaves the Heat there'd be no form of retooling they could do to cover his impact on the game. But with Rudy Gay, whatever they lost on offence (not much) Prince more than covered it up on defence and for half(?) the cost. My point being is that Gay just isn't an impact player (well, at least one that his contract would justify). He's an empty stats guy through and through. He didn't hurt the Grizz, but he didn't justify taking ~$19 mill of the team's cap. He's a poor man's Melo and that isn't saying much. edit: Don't want to rag of Rudy too much. I don't hate him as a player and if you could have him at the right price and right situation he could be a plus. But he just didn't fit that Grizz roster and have much of an impact on the fortunes of that team. Dare I say, the Grizz had their two best off-seasons when Rudy wasn't playing... There's a lot to be said for having a player who can iso, or create/make a shot on very little action(as far as screens go)in the late moments of the game. A lot of very respected basketball people commented that Gay would've been a huge boost to Memphis in that SA series, where their late game offense was clearly lacking 'that guy.' Would you like that guy to be better overall than Gay? Ya probably, but in the end there's a reason a lot of teams pay those type of players huge money, and it's not because every front office in the NBA is blinded by 'empty stats.' | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On June 11 2013 14:01 RowdierBob wrote: That's my point though. They were able to re-tool the offence so it was like Gay never existed. That's the very definition of a net-neutral when your teams loses nothing by letting you go. If LeBron leaves the Heat there'd be no form of retooling they could do to cover his impact on the game. But with Rudy Gay, whatever they lost on offence (not much) Prince more than covered it up on defence and for half(?) the cost (not to mention it opened up more touches and shots for Conley, Gasol and ZBo). My point being is that Gay just isn't an impact player (well, at least one that his contract would justify). He's an empty stats guy through and through. He didn't hurt the Grizz, but he didn't justify taking ~$19 mill of the team's cap. He's a poor man's Melo and that isn't saying much. edit: Don't want to rag of Rudy too much. I don't hate him as a player and if you could have him at the right price and right situation he could be a plus. But he just didn't fit that Grizz roster and have much of an impact on the fortunes of that team. Dare I say, the Grizz had their two best off-seasons when Rudy wasn't playing... oh yeah I assumed you were making that comment in reference to the Hollins discussion, like saying it didn't matter coaching-wise if he left. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 11 2013 14:08 red_ wrote: There's a lot to be said for having a player who can iso, or create/make a shot on very little action(as far as screens go)in the late moments of the game. A lot of very respected basketball people commented that Gay would've been a huge boost to Memphis in that SA series, where their late game offense was clearly lacking 'that guy.' Would you like that guy to be better overall than Gay? Ya probably, but in the end there's a reason a lot of teams pay those type of players huge money, and it's not because every front office in the NBA is blinded by 'empty stats.' It kind of is. NBA FO's are really not all that smart, nor were the 2 main Gay fans (Magic Johnson and Jalen Rose.) Look at the GM who bought up Gay in all his glory. Colangelo is a terrible GM. But I think it's to Hollins' credit that the Grizz adapted so very quickly after Gay left. I disagree about Hollins' ceiling. Look at how many roster changes he's gone through since taking over in Vancouver. Yeah, Z-Bo turned out better than expected but Hollins is partially responsible for that, as well as developing guys like Conley and Gasol. The Grizzlies have problems on offense but looking at that roster you realize they should have problems on offense. He's a defensive minded coach, but I don't think you can chalk up those problems to him. It's the players he has. He reminds me of Rick Carlisle. Yeah, the Pistons won a championship after getting rid of him but he's still a championship caliber coach. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13358 Posts
On June 11 2013 14:08 red_ wrote: There's a lot to be said for having a player who can iso, or create/make a shot on very little action(as far as screens go)in the late moments of the game. A lot of very respected basketball people commented that Gay would've been a huge boost to Memphis in that SA series, where their late game offense was clearly lacking 'that guy.' Would you like that guy to be better overall than Gay? Ya probably, but in the end there's a reason a lot of teams pay those type of players huge money, and it's not because every front office in the NBA is blinded by 'empty stats.' So you'd be willing to pay an average efficiency, mediocre defensive player $19mill per just so he can be 'that guy'. This is the whole silly "cltuch" debate again. People see Rudy has made a few last-play shots in his career and that means he can all of a sudden be 'that guy' despite stats showing he's really not as good an offensive talent as he's made out to be. Rudy got paid for his potential and didn't/hasn't got there. The Grizz recognised it and moved on. Emotion is fickle but stats don't lie: ![[image loading]](http://postmediacanadadotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/201213.png?w=1000&h=) | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13358 Posts
On June 11 2013 14:22 Jibba wrote: It kind of is. NBA FO's are really not all that smart, nor were the 2 main Gay fans (Magic Johnson and Jalen Rose.) Look at the GM who bought up Gay in all his glory. Colangelo is a terrible GM. But I think it's to Hollins' credit that the Grizz adapted so very quickly after Gay left. I disagree about Hollins' ceiling. Look at how many roster changes he's gone through since taking over in Vancouver. Yeah, Z-Bo turned out better than expected but Hollins is partially responsible for that, as well as developing guys like Conley and Gasol. The Grizzlies have problems on offense but looking at that roster you realize they should have problems on offense. He's a defensive minded coach, but I don't think you can chalk up those problems to him. It's the players he has. He reminds me of Rick Carlisle. Yeah, the Pistons won a championship after getting rid of him but he's still a championship caliber coach. But do you see much growth for the Grizz beyond what they achieved this year if they kept Hollins? The Grizz know what they can get from Hollins having had him there for six years. I'm just not sure he could get much more out of that team. Maybe another coach will, maybe they won't but I applaud the Grizz for making a ballsy move to try get the team to the next level. At least they seem to have a semblance of a plan which a lot of teams sorely lack. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
As for the Gay trade, it remains to be seen how it will pan out. We saw what Prince could do, but saw next to nothing of Ed Davis and Austin Daye. I'm sure that the Grizzlies FO traded Gay for those players because they saw potential in them, but it doesn't appear that Hollins agreed or trusted their evaluation because he barely used Davis or Daye. That could have been another indication of the friction between Hollins and the people making the personnel decisions. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13358 Posts
Hollins loved his team but not so much the FO I'd wager. It'll be interesting to see where the Grizz go from here. They're clearly not worried about shitting the bed if it means they can have a chance at winning it all. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On June 11 2013 14:48 RowdierBob wrote: So you'd be willing to pay an average efficiency, mediocre defensive player $19mill per just so he can be 'that guy'. This is the whole silly "cltuch" debate again. People see Rudy has made a few last-play shots in his career and that means he can all of a sudden be 'that guy' despite stats showing he's really not as good an offensive talent as he's made out to be. Rudy got paid for his potential and didn't/hasn't got there. The Grizz recognised it and moved on. Emotion is fickle but stats don't lie: That's not what I said at all, don't put words in my mouth. I made an argument against the trade being 'net neutral' because Prince plays defense and Hollins reworked the sans-Gay offense. I said front office people seem keen on paying the big dollars to those guys on the (hopeful) idea that they can make late game plays. That's it. I even said that in this specific case, you probably WANT that guy to be better(than Gay is presently), but (the insinuation is) there are only so many guys in the league that good, so some guys catch front offices reaching(cough, Joe Johnson). | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On June 11 2013 14:54 RowdierBob wrote: But do you see much growth for the Grizz beyond what they achieved this year if they kept Hollins? The Grizz know what they can get from Hollins having had him there for six years. I'm just not sure he could get much more out of that team. Maybe another coach will, maybe they won't but I applaud the Grizz for making a ballsy move to try get the team to the next level. At least they seem to have a semblance of a plan which a lot of teams sorely lack. You keep going on about the team getting to the next level but I don't see how Hollins is holding them back. If anything I think they've overachieved under him considering the personnel. If they want to get to the next level it has to be through player acquisitions/trades, not changing someone who's shaped a legitimate contender without true superstars or elite scoring guards (though Conley's getting there). They made the conference finals, and lost two games in OT to an in form Spurs team with multiple future Hall of Famers. Just look at the Spurs, every time they get knocked out in the playoffs (even first round to the Grizz under Hollins) do they consider sacking Pop to get to the 'next level'? Of course not. They shuffle the bench, get in young guys, trade Hill for Kawaii, ditch Jefferson and suddenly they're back in the finals. The only ceiling is the roster. Hollins is capable of going all the way given an extra piece or two. Sure firing the Dantoni's of the world is fine but firing a brilliant defensive coach like Thibs, Pop or Hollins (after the Grizzlies best season ever) is just crazy. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
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