EPTTL Health and Fitness Initiative 2013 - Page 177
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
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decafchicken
United States20154 Posts
On December 31 2013 01:45 mishimaBeef wrote: Very well, can someone link to me their source for counter-arguments to the Harvard study? (or their analysis of it) https://www.google.com/ | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
--- http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/ Probable Increased Risk of Prostate Cancer A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a probable risk factor for prostate cancer. (17) In a Harvard study of male health professionals, men who drank two or more glasses of milk a day were almost twice as likely to develop advanced prostate cancer as those who didn’t drink milk at all. (18) The association appears to be with calcium itself, rather than with dairy products in general: A more recent analysis of the Harvard study participants found that men with the highest calcium intake—at least 2,000 milligrams a day—had nearly double the risk of developing fatal prostate cancer as those who had the lowest intake (less than 500 milligrams per day). (19) Clearly, although more research is needed, we cannot be confident that high milk or calcium intake is safe. 17. World Cancer Research Fund, American Institute for Cancer Research. Food, nutrition, physical activity, and the prevention of cancer: a global perspective. Washington DC: AICR, 2007. 18. Giovannucci E, Rimm EB, Wolk A, et al. Calcium and fructose intake in relation to risk of prostate cancer. Cancer Res. 1998; 58:442–447. 19. Giovannucci E, Liu Y, Platz EA, Stampfer MJ, Willett WC. Risk factors for prostate cancer incidence and progression in the Health Professionals Follow-up Study. International Journal of Cancer. 2007; 121:1571–78. --- When I have some more time and can figure out how to get access to 17, 18, 19, I will have a more formulated response. | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
Major studies suggesting a link between milk and prostate cancer have appeared in medical journals since the 1970s correlation Two of six cohort studies (research studies following groups of people over time) found increased risk with higher milk intakes. correlation Five studies comparing cancer patients to healthy individuals found a similar association. correlation One of these, conducted in northern Italy, found that frequent dairy consumption could increase risk by two and one-half times. correlation In 1997, the World Cancer Research Fund and the American Institute for Cancer Research concluded that dairy products should be considered a possible contributor to prostate cancer. correlation Harvard’s Physicians’ Health Study followed 20,885 men for 11 years, finding that having two and one-half dairy servings each day boosted prostate cancer risk by 34 percent, compared to having less than one-half serving daily. correlation link to actual study http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/4/549.abstract#aff-1 Researchers are looking, not only at whether milk increases cancer risk, but how. AKA researchers don't know whether or not milk increases cancer risk (that's why they're looking) several recent studies have linked increased IGF-I levels to prostate cancer and possibly to breast cancer as well. correlation All of this (assuming all of this comes from properly designed and performed studies, and ignoring any studies that suggest the something else) tells you one thing: milk/dairy is correlated with prostate cancer risk. That's it. Nothing else. We do not know whether milk causes cancer. It may very well do. It also may turn out to be harmless. The point is, we don't know. The only way to find out if milk does increase prostate cancer risk is to take a large random sample (truly random), randomly choose half of them to be in the experimental group and the other half in the control group, force everyone in the experimental group to drink milk or eat dairy every day, force everyone in the control group to eat/drink a placebo, and then follow all of them for a long time. edit - if you do not want to drink milk or eat dairy, don't. dairy is not necessary for good health. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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tofucake
Hyrule19196 Posts
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
On December 31 2013 03:19 mishimaBeef wrote: Sure, but considering the limited (if any) ability to prove causation in this field, and the high stakes, and you might want to convince yourself in the face of many correlations. That is a recipe for basically putting ones' self at the mercy of the health/nutrition community's worst snake oil salesman. On an aside, if I told you that practically every single male will develop some form of prostate cancer given that they hit at least 60 years old, would you be surprised? | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On December 31 2013 03:30 farvacola wrote: That is a recipe for basically putting ones' self at the mercy of the health/nutrition community's worst snake oil salesman. On an aside, if I told you that practically every single male will develop some form of prostate cancer given that they hit at least 60 years old, would you be surprised? Are you questioning the source? I don't understand what part of my "recipe" "puts ones' self at the mercy of the health/nutrition community's worst snake oil salesman." Do you argue that correlation is pretty much all we have in this field? Do you agree that the stakes are high (your health)? | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
From the article I posted: Currently, there’s no good evidence that consuming more than one serving of milk per day in addition to a reasonable diet (which typically provides about 300 milligrams of calcium per day from nondairy sources) will reduce fracture risk. Because of unresolved concerns about the risk of ovarian and prostate cancer, it may be prudent to avoid higher intakes of dairy products. At moderate levels, though, consumption of calcium and dairy products has benefits beyond bone health, including possibly lowering the risk of high blood pressure and colon cancer. (20–25) While the blood pressure benefits appear fairly small, the protection against colon cancer seems somewhat larger, and most of the latter benefit comes from having just one or maybe two glasses of milk per day in addition to what we get from other foods in our diet. Getting more than this doesn’t seem to lower risk further. --- So, this is music to my ears because I actually enjoy milk and dairy. I am thinking I may have 1-2 servings per day instead of cutting it out of my diet, but am still not sure on this. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
Better yet, I would really appreciate it if one of you astute thinkers and researchers that are passionate about the field of nutrition, fitness and health would share your thoughts on dairy, organic food, and grains. I promise to read it and respect it. | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
Do you argue that correlation is pretty much all we have in this field? D There are some great interventionist studies done in other areas (cholesterol, eating meat, saturated fat...) that eshlow posted in the nutrition thread. Those are where researchers actually took a bunch of people, had some eat a certain way and others not, and then compare the results. I don't understand what part of my "recipe" "puts ones' self at the mercy of the health/nutrition community's worst snake oil salesman. i think he means that whenever the media or business says "X is associated with Y so you should do Z," you'll fall for the trap of doing Z, even if it doesn't really benefit you at all (besides placebo effect). And doing Z could often be buying W, which counteracts Y. As you can see from all the different articles you've linked, people can say whatever the hell they want about dairy and get away with it because they use words like "possibly" or "may cause" etc. The first couple articles basically said "you shouldn't drink milk because it might cause cancer" and then this last one says "you can drink milk because there's no evidence that it actually does cause cancer." In the end, like I said in my previous post, we don't know whether milk causes cancer or not. You can interpret that as "don't drink milk because it might cause cancer" or "drink milk because it's not definite that it will cause cancer." So in the end, you just gotta eat what your body responds well to. Let's say you cut out dairy, and you feel a bit better overall. After 2 months without dairy, you suddenly start eating it again and you feel worse (gas or bloating or less energetic or whatever), then clearly, you shouldn't eat dairy. On the other hand, if you feel great after putting dairy back into your diet, you're probably fine with dairy. Not to say that you can eat whatever you want. There are some foods that we know are definitely better than other foods. Like, eating real food like meat, vegetables, and fruit are definitely better than eating mcdonalds and other processed crap. edit - thoughts on organic food: it's probably better than non organic. i haven't come across any studies that positively conclude that non organic is worse than organic. and i haven't come across any that conclude organic is significantly better than non organic. i wouldn't be able to think of a good reason why organic would be worse than non organic though. so yeah, organic is probably better than non organic. if you can afford it, i'd say go for organic. otherwise, non organic seems fine. thoughts on grain: depends on what grain. grains get a bad rap for being grains (because of misrepresentations of paleo, imo), but they shouldn't. grains like wheat are bad because of gluten. but there are grains (like white rice and quinoa) that don't have gluten, and are perfectly fine. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
Anyway, check out that book, it's really well written and quite interesting regardless of dietary allegiances. | ||
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autoexec
United States530 Posts
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
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Flik
Canada256 Posts
I need some help with a diet. Im looking to do an If it fits your macros style diet but I dont really know where to begin. Im currently about 235lbs with I figure about 25% body fat. How do I figure out exactly what my macros are? How do you keep track of them? Do you just look up recipes that have all the macro %s just laid out for you and eat what fits in them? Should I go see a nutritionist? Really have to lose some weight, feel like a plug. Any help anyone could give would be great :D. | ||
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tofucake
Hyrule19196 Posts
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