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TL Health and Fitness Initiative 2013 - Page 176

Forum Index > Sports
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decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20139 Posts
December 29 2013 11:22 GMT
#3501
Haha yeah he worked up to 140 snatch, if he wasn't there i probably wouldn't have gone for 141
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
December 29 2013 12:18 GMT
#3502
On December 29 2013 12:50 decafchicken wrote:
PR snatch from today:


Jesus christ, such a horrifying amount of weight to be snatching above your head. My hat is well and truly off
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
December 29 2013 12:41 GMT
#3503
Manmode activate
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4733 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 03:09:51
December 30 2013 03:08 GMT
#3504
I am just watching some NFL. The fast food commercials... Taco Bell, Subway, Papa Joe's etc... seriously, that stuff doesn't look like food at all. I mean, we have nearly the same fast food in Germany, but the stuff in the US commercials just looks so horrible, I would never eat that Oo.
You're a disturbing country sometimes. At least I overeat (mostly) on real foods ;-)

In other news, thank god the holiday season is over, much easier to eat normally again.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
December 30 2013 03:14 GMT
#3505
lol decaf throwing my max squat over his head ezpz
Official Entusman #21
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 08:50:28
December 30 2013 08:50 GMT
#3506
On December 30 2013 12:08 Malinor wrote:
I am just watching some NFL. The fast food commercials... Taco Bell, Subway, Papa Joe's etc... seriously, that stuff doesn't look like food at all. I mean, we have nearly the same fast food in Germany, but the stuff in the US commercials just looks so horrible, I would never eat that Oo.
You're a disturbing country sometimes. At least I overeat (mostly) on real foods ;-)

In other news, thank god the holiday season is over, much easier to eat normally again.


Too right, the amount of low-quality-food advertising on US TV is shocking. In fact, the amount of advertising in general is horrifying.
IAmWithStupid
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
Russian Federation1016 Posts
December 30 2013 10:43 GMT
#3507
New year is coming, so it's time for a NY resolution.

But first, a little background. I'm in a decent shape (172cm - 63kg), hit the gym regularly, play volleyball once a week and ski during winter. I have very fast metabolism, so I practically don't gain mass even though I consume around 3500 calories per day (food takes a big share of my income).

My resolution is:
1) start morning exercises (I've started today and it was so good! Can't understand why I didn't start earlier);
2) get into swimming (swim at least once per week and learn butterfly style), maybe even reduce gym time for the benefit of swimming.

Would appreciate any tips for getting into swimming! Thanks in advance and Happy New Year!
Insert wise words here
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 12:32:05
December 30 2013 12:31 GMT
#3508
Hi. Has anyone read The China Study?

I have been findings sources citing Dairy as bad. Seems to me the strongest counter-argument was about calcium for your bones but I have found information showing no positive effect.

I am currently planning to cut all dairy from my diet.

What are your thoughts on the matter?
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Garbels
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria653 Posts
December 30 2013 13:26 GMT
#3509
I dont think we ever discussed the china study here. We should do that !
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
December 30 2013 14:22 GMT
#3510
On December 30 2013 22:26 Garbels wrote:
I dont think we ever discussed the china study here. We should do that !

Be careful! It's hard to convey sarcasm over the internetz

@mishimaBeef

Yeah, search "china study" under the sports forum and you'll see a lot of discussion in the nutrition thread I believe (or just look through it). Basically, someone wrote a critique of the china study, citing its flaws, the author wrote back, and there was this back and forth exchange. You might wanna read it to get all the details.

The one thing I'll definitely tell you is this: not all studies are equal. Some studies suck, and their conclusions are misleading, skewed, or flat out wrong. Some studies are well done, but the media reports on it in such a sensationalist fashion that it distorts the study and its conclusions, leading to wrong ideas. You need to be aware of this when doing research about nutrition (well, actually everything, but we're talking about the china study here).

And another thing that you should know, if that's the one thing you take away from this post. Correlation does not equal causation. Observational studies (like the china study) can only make conclusions that are correlation. Observational studies cannot say "X caused Y." They can only say "X and Y are correlated/linked/associated." If you know that X and Y are linked, X may cause Y, or Y may cause X, or they may cause each other, or Z may cause X and Y, or some other scenario.

On cutting dairy: there's no harm in trying. If you cut out dairy and you feel better, then by all means do it. If you cut out dairy and find that it's not really working out for you, then bring it back. Just make sure you're getting all the nutrients you need during all of your dietary changes.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 15:01:32
December 30 2013 15:00 GMT
#3511
I posted this in another thread in April in regards to the China Study and vegetarianism, but it works well enough again


On April 14 2013 04:36 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2013 04:21 sailorferret wrote:
On April 14 2013 03:58 farvacola wrote:
On April 14 2013 03:48 sailorferret wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:46 farvacola wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:31 AeroGear wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean.



Eating Vegan is eating normally.

Whether your body gets its proteins from beans or it gets it from cows doesn't matter--you're body can't tell the difference once its been broken down.

And people who usually switch to Vegan usually have to become more aware of their eating habits. This awareness makes them better at portion control, dietary intake, etc... Which leads to losing weight.

So although staying away from meat is not the reason he lost weight--going Vegan *did* help him lose weight. Mostly because of better control.

We should probably return to the topic at hand, but this is actually not quite true. Vegetable proteins and meat proteins are fundamentally different in terms of amino acid composition; furthermore, bioavailability along with a number of other qualities vary dramatically between the two as well. I am not suggesting that one cannot eat healthily on a vegan or vegetarian diet, merely that the quality of the food is going to be different than that of a carnivorous diet.


It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh, not simply different. Anyone who disagrees should read The China Study, which is the most comprehensive study done on flesh consumption to date. You should also be aware that there's a long line of bodybuilders, NFL stars, models, and so on who live very healthy and fit lives on vegetarian and vegan diets. This isn't even taking into account the fact that most people who consume flesh do so in a very unhealthy way or the fact that those studies that conclude flesh eating is healthy also note that people should limit their consumption to a few times a week at most--which is not what the majority of Americans do. This is also to say nothing as to the ethics of flesh consumption. Any doubt on it being unethical I urge you to watch this video before commenting.

Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad

Sorry, but in the realm of "good science", one should not need to buy some book on Amazon in order to access the information. Furthermore, the notion that a single study or piece of information is enough to justify saying "It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh." when there also exist literally hundreds of studies and pieces of information that say differently is silly.


Sorry for providing a link to a book that would require someone to read more than a blog entry. That books sites tons of figures studies, etc and is way more comprehensive than anything you can find on the internet.

Here's some lower quality sites-

Someone who grew up on a dairy farm eating flesh, who now does nutritional research - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587174077811182.html

Here's a collection of information -
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414012755.htm

And two more links -
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0512-03.htm
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.html

But, again, buy the book (or go to a library) since it's more comprehensive, more conclusive, less biased, and better than almost anything else out there.

Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad

No, stop hocking your pseudo-science and derailing the thread please. You can throw hyperlinks at the forum until you are blue in the face, but none of them will do the footwork of proving that vegetarian diets are inherently superior to carnivorous ones for you.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587174077811182.html

The above link makes it incredibly obvious that proving vegetarianism the superior diet is practically impossible; it provides information that supports both sides of the debate.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414012755.htm

The above is in reference to the environmental effects of meat eating; while certainly interesting, it in no way proves meat unhealthy to eat (I mean come on, the article is being published in the journal Earth Interactions lol).

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0512-03.htm
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.html

These two barely even deserve a comment. One strange article with conflicting dates that references a small study on adolescent diets in Minnesota does not say much, whereas the url http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.html speaks for itself.

As to your insistence that we read "The China Study", I'm afraid that just isn't going to cut it. With only a little bit of searching around, I've found heaps of criticism leveled towards the work, mostly in regards to Campbell's biased interpretation of science that does not say what he'd like it to. Since you suggested we read a book, here, read this.
+ Show Spoiler +
The China Study is an attempt by Campbell to promote veganism as a dietary lifestyle through scientific research. Unfortunately the scientific basis of the book if full off misinterpretations, omissions of conflicting data, and conclusions and statements based on unreferenced facts (possibly not facts?). I began reading the book with an open mind but from the outset it was clear that Campbell had one mantra - animal based food is bad, plant based food is good, and this is repeated over and over throughout the book.

Let's first look at Campbells own laboratory studies. In the presence of Aflatoxin, a carcinogen, rats fed a diet of 20% casein, a milk protein, develop cancer while those that are fed 5% casein do not. Okay, I am willing to accept that study on face value. How much casein causes cancer then? In a dose response study Campbell found that 10% casein doesn't contribute to cancer development, but above 10% does. Again, I am happy to accept that. A diet made up of 10% casein contributes to cancer development. How does that apply to humans? After describing a study about nitrosamines and how the dose wasn't relevant to the human population (page 45), Campbell has done the exact same thing with his Casein study. Casein is a milk protein. In 100ml of whole milk, the macro nutrient content is 5.2g of carbohydrate, 3.25g of fat and 3.2g of protein that equals 11.65g of nutrients, the rest of the 100ml mostly made up of water. Milk protein is 80% casein, 80% of 3.2g is 2.56, so out of that 11.65 total, 2.56 is casein which equals 22% of the total. Oh no! Milk will cause us to develop cancer! But don't worry, as long as we get the casein down to 10% we will be safe. How do we do that? Eat 13.95g of anything that is not casein. Pretty easy to do. So as long as we are not living of more than about 50% milk, then we are safe from cancer as a result of the casein in the milk. Do you know anybody that has that much milk? And that is ignoring the fact that casein extracted from milk for the purposes of his study is not exactly a healthy, natural source of protein purely as a result of the chemical extraction.

But hang on, what if other proteins contribute to the development of cancer? Campbell thought that so he investigated gluten and soy and found that neither of them had the same impact as casein. That clearly shows that not all proteins contribute to cancer, and having tested 2 plant proteins and 1 of the many animal proteins, we must therefore conclude that ALL animal proteins lead to cancer and ALL plant proteins do not. Does anybody else see a problem with this? All that we can conclude from these studies is a diet made up of above 10% casein, may contribute to the development of cancer and a diet below 10% casein does not contribute. That is all. Other proteins, both animal and plant, like gluten and soy, may behave differently and unless you have a milk fetish or you are downing large amounts of casein based protein powder (like the rats in the study) then the study is largely irrelevant to your diet or your health.

Before moving on I have one more observation; To test the impact of decreased protein from 20 to 5% they replaced some of the protein with carbohydrates to keep the calories the same. Commenting on the addition of carbohydrate he says "the extra starch and glucose in the low-protein diets could not have been responsible for the lower development of foci because these carbohydrates, when tested alone, actually increase foci development" (page 351). So carbohydrates, which come from plants, increase the development of foci? PLANTS CAUSE CANCER TOO?? Could this be something worth elaborating on or including in a conclusion? No, better not, lets keep that brief mention of carbohydrates causing cancer stuck away in an appendix in case anybody gets the wrong idea.

It is apparent from his casein studies that Campbell has come to the conclusion that "20% casein causes cancer, therefore all animal protein is bad". It is with this mindset that he then set out on the giant study of the China Project, a commendable effort that could have had many beneficial outcomes. Unfortunately, possibly as a result of his previous work, Campbell has gone in with blinders on, and all he can see is animal protein and the negative health outcomes associated with its' consumption. The project itself and the original publication arising from it produced a vast amount of data that provides some interesting insight into health and disease. However, what Campbell has shown in the China Study is but a fraction of the information to be gained from the project. It would require a whole new study (unbiased this time preferably) to go into all the beneficial knowledge we could gain, but I will touch on a few things here.

Campbells main conclusion in the China Study is that all animal protein contributes to disease and all plant protein prevents disease. In the original project, they performed a diet survey over 3 days, analyzing all the food consumed per person in that time. Guess how many of the measured mortality factors (about 50 of them), were associated with animal protein consumption measured from the diet survey. Zero. Zero. Zero. Okay, so Campbell can't have come to his conclusions from there. They also had study participants fill out a questionnaire that included one question on meat consumption. Guess how many mortality factors correlated with that? One type of cancer (naso-pharyngeal or something I think it was). An example of some of the many other inclusions in the questionnaire are canola oil and potatoes (not sweet potatoes) which both had a number of positive associations with the development of different types of cancer. Apparently that wasn't worth mentioning in the China Study. Speaking of oil, Campbell makes reference to %fat in the diet being a good indicator of animal protein consumption, despite the fact they clearly use enough canola oil (a vegetable fat) to measure in the study.

So a 3 day food consumption survey shows no association between animal protein and mortality and a questionnaire shows an association between meat and one of many cancers measured. From where can Campbell come to his evil animal protein conclusion then? They also took plasma samples and measured them for blood biomarkers of animal protein consumption. These biomarkers, listed in the references for chapter 4 #39 are "plasma copper, urea nitrogen, estradiol, prolactin, testosterone and, inversely, sex hormone binding globulin, each of which has been known to be associated with animal protein intake from previous studies". No mention of these previous studies of course. So the associations with most of those biomarkers and mortality rates are dubious, and the only biomarker statistically associated with cancer mortality is copper. Many places show food sources of copper and I went to [...] find the best sources of copper. The best? Calfs liver. The next 40 best? All from plants. 42 and 43 are shrimp and venison, the only other animal source in the list on the site. So for copper to be a biomarker of animal consumption then the participants in this study must be eating a lot of calf liver and avoiding a lot of vegetables. Sound realistic?

So from an association between blood biomarkers, the only real one being copper, and cancer mortality, Campbell has concluded that animal protein gives you cancer, despite the fact that the majority of dietary sources of copper are actually from plant sources. So that basically leaves Campbell with no actual evidence between animal consumption and mortality as a result of the original China project.

A final note. In his eating right section Campbell says supplements are bad (principle 2). Principle 3 then says "there are virtually no nutrients in animal-based foods that are not better provided by plants"(page 230), but over the page he says plants are not a good source of vitamin B12 and you probably should take a supplement. What? Then in the how to eat section on page 242 he says "the findings from the China Study indicate that the lower percentage of animal-based foods that are consumed, the greater the health benefits-even when the percentage declines from 10% to 0% of calories". As I've clearly shown, the China Study does not show this, and his own study with Casein proved that there was no benefit in eating less then 10% of your diet from Casein.

Clearly Campbell is a vegetarian, as he states in the book, and promoting vegetarianism is his main goal, which he tries to back up with scientific research that actually disagrees with him, but that he has interpreted in a way that makes it agree with him. Bad science, bad book and definitely bad recommendations as far as health. While I'm not saying go out and live on animal products alone, I don't think you should stop eating them, especially because they are tasty, but even if only for a natural source of vitamin B12.

If you actually read all of that, it becomes plain to see that Campbell's conclusion that science most certainly points to vegetarianism being the superior diet is actually nonsense fueled by an agenda.

If you'd like to continue with this, PM me. No need to continue with this in this thread.

"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
MtlGuitarist97
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1539 Posts
December 30 2013 16:17 GMT
#3512
Personally I think milk is gross and don't understand how anyone could drink it, but I don't think that citing the China Study as your reason to stop eating all dairy products is pretty ridiculous.

One thing I would like to get some verification on is a somewhat random stat (not coming from the most veritable of sources, I saw it on Reddit...) that 90% of Asians and 100% of Native Americans are lactose intolerant. Is it just because beef (and by extension, cow milk) weren't really part of their diets and they just don't produce lactase in the same quantity as Europeans?
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 16:30:03
December 30 2013 16:26 GMT
#3513
Well two things.

One, the dairy research in the China Study seemed pretty solid from the reviews I read. Apparently, something to do with tumors or cancer was directly correlated with Casein Protein.

Two, dairy seems to provide no nutritional benefit.
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
December 30 2013 16:28 GMT
#3514
Ah ha. It's pretty evident that you did not read what farvacola posted.

This topic is probably done.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 16:31:15
December 30 2013 16:30 GMT
#3515
On December 31 2013 01:28 marvellosity wrote:
Ah ha. It's pretty evident that you did not read what farvacola posted.

This topic is probably done.


Yeah I cannot read it right now but will get back to it. Also I will admit that I haven't read the China Study yet either but have read both positive and negative reviews as well as other information on the subjects. Just thought I would state my current thoughts on the subject.

So if the subject is done perhaps you could summarize your position.
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 16:32:32
December 30 2013 16:31 GMT
#3516
Then why are you posting further stuff when someone's already taken the trouble to go and find a post which talked about it in great detail?

I don't even give a shit about it and I still read all of it.

edit: the stuff in the spoiler talks at some length about the casein business.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 16:44:34
December 30 2013 16:35 GMT
#3517
I will read it in due time but am posting my thoughts for the off-chance that the material I discuss has not been directly addressed. For example: http://pcrm.org/health/health-topics//milk-and-prostate-cancer-the-evidence-mounts

See the thing is I do believe The China Study may be overly sensational and I understand that there are many criticisms to be made on that regard.
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20139 Posts
December 30 2013 16:41 GMT
#3518
it's all been discussed to death in this thread in past years and various other threads.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 16:44:44
December 30 2013 16:43 GMT
#3519
On December 31 2013 01:35 mishimaBeef wrote:
I will read it in due time but am posting my thoughts for the off-chance that the material I discuss has not been directly addressed. For example: http://pcrm.org/health/health-topics//milk-and-prostate-cancer-the-evidence-mounts

See the thing is I do believe The China Study may be overly sensational and I understand that there are many criticisms to be made on that regard.

Are you serious? PCRM is THE vegetarian lobbyist group in Washington. So not only are you seemingly unwilling to read evidence to the contrary of your original, unsubstantiated point, you also seem unable to discriminate when it comes to source material. It would probably be best if you held off on posting until you actually read and investigated the topic, as it is clear that you have not done so as of yet.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 16:51:08
December 30 2013 16:45 GMT
#3520
Very well, can someone link to me their source for counter-arguments to the Harvard study? (or their analysis of it)
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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