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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
On December 05 2012 04:30 sharkie wrote: as long as messi doesnt win the world cup with argentina he will never be -one step above- pele, maradona, zidane, (beckenbauer) Well it's still a matter of opinion I guess, everyone has his own definition of the 'Greatest player of all time'. For me it's Cruijff and he never won a World Cup. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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Enchanted
United States1609 Posts
On December 05 2012 04:42 Salteador Neo wrote: World Cups display a craptastic level of football compared to clubs lol Not true at all o_o | ||
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
On December 05 2012 04:40 Sated wrote: World Cups are won by teams, not by players. Nothing in football is won by players. Even Maradona had a team around him that managed to defend and aid him well enough so he could score or create enough to beat another team. About Cruijff btw, he only participated in 1 world cup and managed to reach the final. A good record to be honest  edit: Psg - Porto 1-1. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Well not all of them are terrible, but not really too close to the top teams either. Spain is probably the best and Barça is like the same plus Messi... I have watched a lot of world cup games and often they look like amateur games compared to CL top games. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18774 Posts
On December 05 2012 05:22 Salteador Neo wrote: Well not all of them are terrible, but not really too close to the top teams either. Spain is probably the best and Barça is like the same plus Messi... I have watched a lot of world cup games and often they look like amateur games compared to CL top games. Really? I have seen plenty of horrible games in CL too (after the group stage even). You can't just compare bad WC games to top CL games, thats unfair. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On December 05 2012 05:30 sharkie wrote: Really? I have seen plenty of horrible games in CL too (after the group stage even). You can't just compare bad WC games to top CL games, thats unfair. Ok give me some recent top World Cup game that would come even close to matching some recent memorable top CL games. Unless your subjective about it their arent really any. Or hell even Euro games which is a significant upgrade from World Football. As for Pele winning world cups singlehandedly. I think outlined many times how amazing his teams were. The major reason he gets so many props for winning those cups is that there were later Brazil teams that were better than his (yes even with him in them) that ended up not winning. Now theres lots of reasons for that and we all know the best team doesnt always win but fact is his teams won and others that were just as good if not better (relative to their time) didnt so they were "Peles" teams. But he didnt win anything singlehandedly. Infact a number of his goals outside 1 or 2 match winning performances+ Show Spoiler + (which is in itself valuable enough in a world cup) To demonstrate. + Show Spoiler + Berba top scored in the league a few years back. Nearly half of those goals were simply United polishing off games they had already won. Chico's goals on the other hand won them games. It doesnt take a genius to realise why Fergie valued him more. Statistically compared to Pele, Maradonna did fuck all if you think about it in World Cup football, but he quite literally (and if you see some of those games closely you'll know) carried his team (think Suarez at Liverpool these days) to a Worldcup. The next time around when they were actually much better. They lost. Thats just how it is. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18774 Posts
On December 05 2012 05:37 Rebs wrote: Ok give me some ecent top World Cup game that would match memorable top CL games. Or hell even Euro games which is a significant upgrade from World Football. Well tell me what level I have to look, what is a memorable top cl game? And yes Euro has higher competition but imo it has always produced worse games. | ||
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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
You can't achieve top level with that. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On December 05 2012 05:46 WillyWanker wrote: National teams bring different emotions, you can't really compare... I agree the level in national teams is on average lower than the club teams but you have to remember that the players only train with their national team 1 month a year on average :s You can't achieve top level with that. Which is fine, international football is great, and yes if they trained together regularly they would be better.But they dont train together regularly and they arent as good and thats the point. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On December 05 2012 05:43 sharkie wrote: Well tell me what level I have to look, what is a memorable top cl game? And yes Euro has higher competition but imo it has always produced worse games. anything in the knockout stages realistically Hell look at Dortmund Madrid recently | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
That includes his horrible coaches in the national team btw, I still can't forget the idiot who subd him out in the 2006 game against germany. He was clearly the best player on the pitch, even that young. And 2010, maradona wat r yu doin, maradona weit, maradona, STAHP! The only player I consider of putting on the same level with him is maradona, for the single reason he carried not only once, not only one team, but both napoli to the seria A title and argentina to 2 world cup finals. And what is this bollocks about having to prove yourself with a world cup win, sounds corny like those islanders that say messi still has to beat stoke on a rainy day to prove himself. Some of the greatest players ever never won the wc, batistuta, puskas, van basten, georgie best and so many others. | ||
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
see whats wrong with ifs, it's your opinion and it means shit when comparing facts | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On December 05 2012 07:37 dmnum wrote: if pele had today's training regimen, he would score twice as many goals as messi does see whats wrong with ifs, it's your opinion and it means shit when comparing facts So, your opinion based on the fact that pele won 3 wc's and batistuta/van basten/best won nothing, thus he's better, is legit? Nice logic. To clarify my view, I'd consider messi the goat even with no championships and no champions league wins. | ||
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:01 dmnum wrote: Not better, greater. Being better means nothing, in a lot of sports the goat isn't the best of all time, because sports evolve. still, pele and maradona accomplished more than messi has yet. He can be the goat by maintaining his level and winning more titles(and yes he won't be regarded by the majority of people as the goat if he doesn't win a world cup). The goat is the goat. Before messi and despite players like zidane and ronaldo noone could touch the superstar duo of pele-maradona. MJ is still the goat in bball, despite kobe, lebron, wade, whatever. And if by majority you mean yourself I've got news for you. | ||
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DaMuffinman
Germany1705 Posts
On December 05 2012 11:59 Steveling wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On December 05 2012 08:01 dmnum wrote: Not better, greater. Being better means nothing, in a lot of sports the goat isn't the best of all time, because sports evolve. still, pele and maradona accomplished more than messi has yet. He can be the goat by maintaining his level and winning more titles(and yes he won't be regarded by the majority of people as the goat if he doesn't win a world cup). The goat is the goat. Before messi and despite players like zidane and ronaldo noone could touch the superstar duo of pele-maradona. MJ is still the goat in bball, despite kobe, lebron, wade, whatever. And if by majority you mean yourself I've got news for you. I don't think so. We can't really say who is more of a "Goat" before Messis career is over. He sure has mad skills but like dmnum said, best of all time is not the goat, but he sure has the potential to become the goat. We also can't compare MJ to Kobe//LeBron//Durant etc. because those others are still active. Lets say LeBron comes close to the total points scored and to the number of titles MJ has won, then who was greater, who was better? Basically, we have to wait and see. | ||
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Swish 41
Germany154 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
For me Gordon Banks sticks out as a "best player ever" kind of guy for the saves he made during the '66 world cup to basically give any kinda chance for England to win it. Im sure there are Germans around who think Beckenbauer was the best ever player for all the stuff he has achieved in his career, leading from the back etc. | ||
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