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On November 16 2012 20:16 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 07:53 TS-Rupbar wrote:On November 16 2012 07:21 Pandemona wrote:Yeh but this "wonder goal" he scored yesterday does not make him an awesome player over night. Scoring 4 past a crap England team (the first team not much better tbh) and not doing anything club level apart from domestically (and not in England, arguably the hardest league physically for a striker, maybe bundesliga too) and not do anything internationally makes him an average, match winning player not a world beater. Rooney falls into the same category of Ibra for me. Pele once said, in an interview; "until Messi helps Argentina wins a world cup, he cannot be considered great" which in some cases is true. Pele became great by winning world cups for Brazil, Maradonna became a god by winning world cup for Argentina by himself. The point im trying to make is Lavezzi is not just this one game wonder, i keep pointing back to it due to the fact it was a big game, big stage. Someone tell me the last time Ibra set up 2 and scored 1 in a last 16 tie in champions league? He goes none exsitant in the big games on the big stages, thus he cannot be dubbed anywhere close to Messi and Ronaldo, they are leagues ahead of any other player on the planet (imo) I need to see more stats for me to see Ibra as a world beater/world class or ahead of people like Rooney/Benzema/Higuain types. Of course i respect everyone's opinion, but i really do think PSGs best peice of buisness value wise and talent wise was Lavezzi  Ibrahimovic scored the most goals in the Italian league last season. He's done it once before in 2008 as well. I don't understand how you can say that he's a "one game wonder" lol. Also, how is he supposed to win anything internationally with the Swedish national team? Isn't "carrying" a national team by yourself enough of a statement of one's greatness anyway? Lastly, how is being in a Champion's League final not "doing anything"?If you saw Sweden against Germany coming back to 4-4 from 0-4, you wouldn't say that Zlatan "goes non exsitant in the big games on the big stages". Are you saying Ibra has reached a Champions League final? Because he hasn't. His best result was a semi-final with Barcelona. He was still playing at Ajax the year Juventus reached the champions league and left Inter the year they won the champions league. Like rebs said there is a limit to how far a single player can carry his team in Europe. He's terrific if you want to win the league though, he basically made Mancini look like a decent manager and that is a big compliment 
Ok. I thought Barcelona reached the finals this year, but I'm wrong about that part then. Sorry about that.
I still don't see how you can argue Ibra's not "world class", though : /
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Zlatan won a league title for like 8 years running or something silly. Whatever team had zlatan won the league.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Difference between world class and a match winner is simple;
Match Winner Type Players; Rooney/Ibra/VanPerSie/Hazard/Mata (many more like this)
World Class Players: Ronaldo/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta (these are more than just "match winners" they are players that turn up week in week out and make an attribute to every game)
Match winners turn up every now and again, world class players show up week in week out and on the biggest stages. Iniesta Xavi Messi Ronaldo are the ones off my head that turn up on the big stages and week in week out. Anyone think of any i have missed?
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I think you're restricting the World Class List a little to much. I understand your point of view, but Ibra is a World Class player not just a Match Winner... I can see your point when u say that you only consider that 4 players "World Class" but i think the list can be stretched to fit 5 or 6 more players.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On November 16 2012 22:29 Pandemona wrote:
Difference between world class and a match winner is simple;
Match Winner Type Players; Rooney/Ibra/VanPerSie/Hazard/Mata (many more like this)
World Class Players: Ronaldo/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta (these are more than just "match winners" they are players that turn up week in week out and make an attribute to every game)
Match winners turn up every now and again, world class players show up week in week out and on the biggest stages. Iniesta Xavi Messi Ronaldo are the ones off my head that turn up on the big stages and week in week out. Anyone think of any i have missed?
I don't think the classifications you're using are correct - or better put, useful. 'World class' doesn't have an accepted definition. All we know is that it's a very high compliment and that's about it. Different people use it to mean different things. I certainly consider Ibra to be world class, whatever that means. He has shown great consistency throughout his career in the Scudetta and he is certainly more than capable of doing wondrous things on the pitch. That is 'world class' for me. What you're talking about is whether he is a consistent clutch/crunch time player or not. Of course, Ibra is more than capable of being clutch, but he does have a reputation for not showing up on really big occasions. Players like Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, and Ronaldo have shown that they do, and consistently at that. That is what separates them, albeit the divide is much smaller than people think it is.
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On November 16 2012 23:13 Pandemona wrote:Sure, im all up for debate :D Who do you think should be in the list of World Class Players? Everyone can add  But please try to incorperate the critea of; Plays a 8/10 game every week regardless of opponent Turns up in the big games with an assist/goal/spark of brilliance
I can show you plenty of games where Ronald/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta didn't play up to 8/10 standards.
Does this mean all four of them are not world class?
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Yeah i respect your classification of World Class i too can understand that view, BUT i don't see how you can classify Ronaldo/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta as in a different league than the Ibra etc and classify him as World Class
I'd rather look at is as your either A* or A. not A*A. There are plenty of players that are good and capable of winning matches. Hazard/Falcao/Robben/Mata/Ibra/Rooney etcetcetc, these are no where near the level of the other 4 i have mentioned though due to going stray and losing form alot. Maybe not on the sense of Falcao, but he has not been tested on the biggest stage yet though.
On November 16 2012 23:24 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 23:13 Pandemona wrote:Sure, im all up for debate :D Who do you think should be in the list of World Class Players? Everyone can add But please try to incorperate the critea of; Plays a 8/10 game every week regardless of opponent Turns up in the big games with an assist/goal/spark of brilliance I can show you plenty of games where Ronald/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta didn't play up to 8/10 standards. Does this mean all four of them are not world class?
Please show them
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Xavi has never played a bad game period lol. I have seen them all.
Can't say the same for the others tho, "everyone" has a bad day Iniesta for sure has.
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On November 16 2012 22:18 TS-Rupbar wrote:
Ok. I thought Barcelona reached the finals this year, but I'm wrong about that part then. Sorry about that.
I still don't see how you can argue Ibra's not "world class", though : /
He is, at least IMO. You don't play a vital part in winning as many leagues as he has without being "world class". What I do agree with is that he doesn't have the results to be amongst players like Ronaldo, Messi and Xavi. He obviously has the ability but it hasn't been happening for him on the highest stage.
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Zlatan has been expected to be the one to carry his teams for every season, except the season at Barcelona. Xavi or Iniesta never had that responsibility, and I don't think they would do better if a team was built around one of them as the star who must be the difference maker every game. So I don't agree that they are "world class" if the definition is so narrow. And to put things in perspective, Zlatan is 11th all time in Champions League scoring, while Falcao has hardly even played in it so far in his career.
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On November 16 2012 23:28 Pandemona wrote:Yeah i respect your classification of World Class i too can understand that view, BUT i don't see how you can classify Ronaldo/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta as in a different league than the Ibra etc and classify him as World ClassI'd rather look at is as your either A* or A. not A*A. There are plenty of players that are good and capable of winning matches. Hazard/Falcao/Robben/Mata/Ibra/Rooney etcetcetc, these are no where near the level of the other 4 i have mentioned though due to going stray and losing form alot. Maybe not on the sense of Falcao, but he has not been tested on the biggest stage yet though. Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 23:24 sharkie wrote:On November 16 2012 23:13 Pandemona wrote:Sure, im all up for debate :D Who do you think should be in the list of World Class Players? Everyone can add But please try to incorperate the critea of; Plays a 8/10 game every week regardless of opponent Turns up in the big games with an assist/goal/spark of brilliance I can show you plenty of games where Ronald/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta didn't play up to 8/10 standards. Does this mean all four of them are not world class? Please show them
I don't watch these players on a weekly basis, but Ronaldo was abysmal in the first BVB - Madrid game. (even with his goal :p)
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On November 16 2012 23:28 Pandemona wrote:Yeah i respect your classification of World Class i too can understand that view, BUT i don't see how you can classify Ronaldo/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta as in a different league than the Ibra etc and classify him as World ClassI'd rather look at is as your either A* or A. not A*A. There are plenty of players that are good and capable of winning matches. Hazard/Falcao/Robben/Mata/Ibra/Rooney etcetcetc, these are no where near the level of the other 4 i have mentioned though due to going stray and losing form alot. Maybe not on the sense of Falcao, but he has not been tested on the biggest stage yet though. Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 23:24 sharkie wrote:On November 16 2012 23:13 Pandemona wrote:Sure, im all up for debate :D Who do you think should be in the list of World Class Players? Everyone can add But please try to incorperate the critea of; Plays a 8/10 game every week regardless of opponent Turns up in the big games with an assist/goal/spark of brilliance I can show you plenty of games where Ronald/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta didn't play up to 8/10 standards. Does this mean all four of them are not world class? Please show them
They are all world class. They, the Messis, Ronaldos, Iniestas...etc, are just a little more clutch in the really big moments than the others, like Ibra. Like I said before, the term is pretty loose with its meaning. If you think it means the absolute peak of football with no room to give, fine. I, however, see it as a way to describe anyone showing exceptional talent and delivering it on a consistent basis. And Ibra is certainly that.
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Why not just classify players in different tiers. What you call the tiers is pretty irrelevant.
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Szczesny back in goal for Arsenal, Jermain Defoe and Hugo Lloris in the lineup for Spurs. Steven Caulker out injured.
Another bad start for Arsenal...
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GOAL!
Adebayor scored for spurs!
spurs led by 1 goal at the emirates!
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Hero to zero!
A bit harsh, but he did catch him with his studs. Foolish tackle to make at any time in any place.
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51711 Posts
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Adebayor gets a straight red after a vicious collision with Santi Cazorla!
Damn what a header by Mertesacker. 1-1
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EPT
