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On November 09 2014 16:41 IgnE wrote:
I have a BMI of like 31 and I'm not fat. I think you are bringing a lot of gains-destroying fat phobia into the thread phyre. Fact is most dudes do not eat nearly enough. If you aren't at a BMI of 25 and you are trying to put on muscle you need to eat everything you will eat while maintaining high protein intake, 1g/lb of LBM you want. If someone is 5'10" 175 lbs and almost 20% bodyfat you just don't have very much muscle. Something somewhere else is going wrong if you think you've been training consistently for a year or more. If you are just getting into lifting at those stats you obviously are eating enough, you just haven't been training, so it's ok to be a bit stricter in the diet while trying to put on muscle.
I'm not saying you can't get to 25 or an even higher BMI and still be lean. I'm saying it's a process that takes time and eating your way directly up to 25 BMI as soon as you start lifting is a mistake.
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Telling novices to be worried about eating too much is almost always terrible advice provided they aren't already fat. People who are 150 lbs at average height are just not familiar with eating to grow and the amount of food it takes. Trying to gain only lean muscle by following strict diets will end up in early plateaus and frustration. Then comes the plaintive cry, "Im a hard gainer." No you aren't. You need to eat more. People who are lean and have been the majority of their life can and should be eating 1g/lb of LBM for their target weight, some vegetables, and everything else they can get their hands on. It's actually difficult for tiny dudes who are fulfilling the first two points to get fat doing the third if they are lifting hard consistently. They just cannot physically bring themselves to eat enough. Eating pints of ice cream every night while bringing intensity to the gym will do more for your strength and physique than anything else will. People are too afraid to lose their skinny 6-pack because they don't have the faith that their chest or whatever will ever come in.
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On November 09 2014 18:56 IgnE wrote:
Telling novices to be worried about eating too much is almost always terrible advice provided they aren't already fat. People who are 150 lbs at average height are just not familiar with eating to grow and the amount of food it takes. Trying to gain only lean muscle by following strict diets will end up in early plateaus and frustration. Then comes the plaintive cry, "Im a hard gainer." No you aren't. You need to eat more. People who are lean and have been the majority of their life can and should be eating 1g/lb of LBM for their target weight, some vegetables, and everything else they can get their hands on. It's actually difficult for tiny dudes who are fulfilling the first two points to get fat doing the third if they are lifting hard consistently. They just cannot physically bring themselves to eat enough. Eating pints of ice cream every night while bringing intensity to the gym will do more for your strength and physique than anything else will. People are too afraid to lose their skinny 6-pack because they don't have the faith that their chest or whatever will ever come in.
I feel like we're arguing different things.
My Original statement was "If I (or lots of other people, I'm sure) were to bulk indiscriminately until I hit 25 BMI, I would end up in the high teens of bodyfat. This is unacceptable to me." This is coming from someone who has ALWAYS been the skinny guy, and who absolutely HATES to eat.
While I accept that a lot of what you said in the above quote is true, none of it applies to what I actually said.
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On November 09 2014 19:45 phyre112 wrote:
"If I (or lots of other people, I'm sure) were to bulk indiscriminately until I hit 25 BMI, I would end up in the high teens of bodyfat.
not if you're lifting hard
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so you're... 6'5 and 182 lbs? That seems seriously underweight.
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On November 09 2014 21:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:
so you're... 6'5 and 182 lbs? That seems seriously underweight.
6'4.
Am I small for a lifter? Sure. Am I "underweight" or small for a normal member of the population? not at all.
Would I like to be bigger? of course. And I aim to be 210 or 230 or even 250 (a 30 BMI).... someday. I could be at the 25 BMI by christmas if I were to eat "pints of ice cream every night" (or the calorie equivalent, since I hate ice cream above and beyond the point I dislike most food). But I dont care how hard you're lifting, you don't get anything but fat by trying to put on 30 pounds in a month and a half.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
you're both right from my perspective. I'm trying to put on weight atm now summer's gone and I think I'm eating "a lot" but I'm struggling to move my weight that much, and I understand that's simply because I'm not eating enough. I just need to eat more.
On the flip side, I don't want to eat just a fuckton of shit indiscriminately, because I like having low body fat. I'm happy to get there a bit slower if I don't get too lardy in the interim.
Igne also seems to come from the perspective of a general endgoal of being "huge" or whatever, my endgoal is a BMI of about 25 with about 10% bodyfat. I've no desire to become particularly large.
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Zurich15325 Posts
How can I hydrate myself when my stomach refuses and sends back everything I put in? Fuck hungovers ...
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I really don't think BMI means anything, if your'e 6'4, 182 lbs, there's no way you have any kind of muscle.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On November 10 2014 07:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I really don't think BMI means anything, if your'e 6'4, 182 lbs, there's no way you have any kind of muscle.
Except his BMI is probably at least 5 higher than it used to be, and the difference is entirely muscle?
Stop trolling.
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so he used to be about 165 lb something and now he's 182, and he's afraid of gaining more weight? He went from being dangerously underweight to just underweight.
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On November 10 2014 08:07 zulu_nation8 wrote:
so he used to be about 165 lb something and now he's 182, and he's afraid of gaining more weight? He went from being dangerously underweight to just underweight.
Still trying to gain weight, just not 30 pounds in a month because that'd be 25 lbs of fat at least. The process is slow, which is why you don't just stuff your face with everything you see. 182 lbs at 6'4 is almost dead center of the "Normal Weight" category of BMI. I know BMI isn't the best tool but it's pretty applicable here.
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i don't think anyone was saying to gain 30lbs in a month.. that's like eating more than twice? your tdee or something
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Hi, I really appreciate all that was mentioned here. Yes, I would agree that nutrition is really important especially if you want to be fit and healthy. For me, I think in maintaining an ideal weight, a person must consider in eating more protein and have a little amount of fats in his or her diet.
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On November 10 2014 07:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I really don't think BMI means anything, if your'e 6'4, 182 lbs, there's no way you have any kind of muscle.
Then what in the name of god are the 52 pounds I've put on since I started lifting?
Anyway, if you're suddenly saying you shouldn't try to add 30 pounds as fast as possible, then the argument is over because that's what I've been saying the whole damn time.
On November 10 2014 12:21 consistentgamer wrote:
Hi, I really appreciate all that was mentioned here. Yes, I would agree that nutrition is really important especially if you want to be fit and healthy. For me, I think in maintaining an ideal weight, a person must consider in eating more protein and have a little amount of fats in his or her diet.
Fats are healthy, to a point. Fats make you feel full, and your body uses fats (and cholesterol) in very important ways - most important for people who lift would be in the production of your anabolic hormones. While fat is very calorie dense so it's not too hard to over eat on high fat foods, it's more important to make sure youe overall calorie intake isnt too high, and to get a decent balance of carbohydrates, fats and proteins.
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as fast as possible probably means 3-4 months at the fastest, the general mentality for someone your size should be to stuff your face and eat as much as possible especially as it seems like you're afraid of food. If you were indeed 130 lbs before with your height then it's likely you'll have to be forcefed through a tube to eat above your maintenance.
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On November 10 2014 14:20 zulu_nation8 wrote:
as fast as possible probably means 3-4 months at the fastest, the general mentality for someone your size should be to stuff your face and eat as much as possible especially as it seems like you're afraid of food. If you were indeed 130 lbs before with your height then it's likely you'll have to be forcefed through a tube to eat above your maintenance.
No you shouldn't be stuffing your face and eating as much as possible. It's not recommended for an overweight person to just stop eating, just like it's not recommended for an underweight person to double their TDEE. You still only want to go 3-500 above your TDEE to gain the weight at a healthy controlled rate as to not gain too much fat. Again, 182 lbs 6'4 is an entirely healthy weight, in fact a little above average. Also, 3-4 months for 30 lbs is still way too fast. That much weight takes more like 1-2 years even at 6'4.
In terms of BMI I'm almost the exact same as Phyre: I started at 112 lbs 5'10 and that was the result of pretty much just eating one meal per day. Just eating 3 regular meals/day brought me up to 140 and then putting effort into eating a few hundred above maintenance and I'm consistently climbing in weight, sitting around 155 now and my goal is ~173. It's only because so much of the population is obese that these weights seem skinny. The average weight of people around my height that don't workout and eat just a typical 3 meals/day is probably around 145-150 which is dead center of the bmi scale.
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i was making the point that doubling your tdee is virtually impossible unless you're going to eating contests everyday. Even eating 500 above, which is very standard for bulking, is difficult if you don't force yourself to and pay attention to what you're eating. You guys shouldn't be worrying about bodyfat % and getting fat when you're all most likely early 20s males who have very high metabolisms, and if asian, even worse. Even eating 500 above only adds like 1lb a week or something iirc. But basically if you're not eating enough then you're not maximizing your results at the gym.
And there's no way you have decent splits if you're 6"4 180lbs unless you've been a lot heavier and cut back down.
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On November 10 2014 14:20 zulu_nation8 wrote:
as fast as possible probably means 3-4 months at the fastest, the general mentality for someone your size should be to stuff your face and eat as much as possible especially as it seems like you're afraid of food. If you were indeed 130 lbs before with your height then it's likely you'll have to be forcefed through a tube to eat above your maintenance.
No, no, and no.
For your first point, I could most certainly put on the 30 pounds I require to get to 210 (25 BMI) by new years. I've gained weight that fast before. It was not a good idea.
I'm not afraid of food, I just don't like it. If I could do without eating, I would... but I can't, so I don't. I have a perfectly functional relationship with food.
My maintenance right now is 2800 calories. I eat that comfortably in 2 meals and 1 snack more or less every day. I've been floating around 180 lbs for the last few months, and am currently eating ~3100 calories a day while I bulk to 190 lbs. I have eaten (in the past, when my activity level was higher) as much as 4200 calories per day. I expect to be at 190 by around the end of january (10 weeks from now). At that point I'll recomp for a bit (another 10 weeks or so, probably) until I'm happy with my fat levels and bulk to 200. I'm not sure you actually understand what you're arguing here, as you seem to be ascribing me all the downsides of a "typical" message board 15 year old new lifter who thinks he's a "hardgainer" and is worried about his 13 inch arms and why his 115 pound bench won't go up. I'm 24 years old. I've been posting on and reading TLHF since I was 18. I majored in biology/physiology in college, and minored in exercise science. I know how bodies work. I am not confused here, I just feel that bulking doesn't need to be hurried.
On November 10 2014 16:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
i was making the point that doubling your tdee is virtually impossible unless you're going to eating contests everyday. Even eating 500 above, which is very standard for bulking, is difficult if you don't force yourself to and pay attention to what you're eating. You guys shouldn't be worrying about bodyfat % and getting fat when you're all most likely early 20s males who have very high metabolisms, and if asian, even worse. Even eating 500 above only adds like 1lb a week or something iirc. But basically if you're not eating enough then you're not maximizing your results at the gym.
And there's no way you have decent splits if you're 6"4 180lbs unless you've been a lot heavier and cut back down.
I don't think you really realize the sizes that you're talking about. My weight and height put me at a 22.2 BMI - that means I am on the higher end of a "normal weight" for someone my height. Considering that I am on that higher end and that I'm there LEAN, I'm really not that small. Yes, in the field of comparing oly/power lifters, body builders, WWE wrestlers, or anyone else who makes a living off their physical stature I am still small. Comparing me to the general public though is another story.
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EPT
