• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:56
CEST 23:56
KST 06:56
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202543Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced62
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up Clem Interview: "PvT is a bit insane right now" Serral wins EWC 2025 TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy
Tourneys
Global Tourney for College Students in September Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Simple editing of Brood War save files? (.mlx) StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Bitcoin discussion thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 671 users

Fitness Questions & Answers - Page 186

Forum Index > Sports
Post a Reply
Prev 1 184 185 186 187 188 191 Next
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20020 Posts
January 15 2016 20:35 GMT
#3701
On January 16 2016 05:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Diagnosis is your first priority. the question is .. who is the best diagnositician? it damn sure ain't a chiropractor.


I'm not going to my chiro to get cancer diagnosed, it's usually for sports related muscle or joint pain/dysfunction, something my chiro knows plenty enough about to diagnose and help.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16710 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-15 20:47:43
January 15 2016 20:36 GMT
#3702
i never said he was the best in canada.
i stated he is a highly skilled diagnostician... and i found this out via legwork and research. i worked damn hard finding this guy. People need to take responsibility for their health and spend time doing the legwork and research necessary to find the best DR they can.

here is the problem with a chiropractor..
when the only tool you own is a hammer.. everything looks like a nail.

On January 16 2016 05:35 decafchicken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2016 05:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Diagnosis is your first priority. the question is .. who is the best diagnositician? it damn sure ain't a chiropractor.


I'm not going to my chiro to get cancer diagnosed, it's usually for sports related muscle or joint pain/dysfunction, something my chiro knows plenty enough about to diagnose and help.


right, and right there u r diagnosing yourself with over-simplified examples. i essentially employ the strategy pro sports teams use when dealing with musculoskeletal issues.

Bo Jackson would've spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair if a chiropractor made the diagnosis of his sore hip. Fortunately, the Oakland Raiders were smart enough to have a more qualified professional examine him.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20020 Posts
January 15 2016 20:51 GMT
#3703
On January 16 2016 05:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i never said he was the best in canada.
i stated he is a highly skilled diagnostician... and i found this out via legwork and research. i worked damn hard finding this guy. People need to take responsibility for their health and spend time doing the legwork and research necessary to find the best DR they can.

here is the problem with a chiropractor..
when the only tool you own is a hammer.. everything looks like a nail.

Show nested quote +
On January 16 2016 05:35 decafchicken wrote:
On January 16 2016 05:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Diagnosis is your first priority. the question is .. who is the best diagnositician? it damn sure ain't a chiropractor.


I'm not going to my chiro to get cancer diagnosed, it's usually for sports related muscle or joint pain/dysfunction, something my chiro knows plenty enough about to diagnose and help.


i essentially employ the strategy pro sports teams use when dealing with musculoskeletal issues.

Bo Jackson would've spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair if a chiropractor made the diagnosis of his sore hip. Fortunately, the Oakland Raiders were smart enough to have a more qualified professional examine him.


Nobody goes to a chiro after dislocating their hip. And any chiro who pretends they are the ones that should diagnose and care for that injury is a bad doctor. And I think we've established that bad doctors are bad and good doctors are good.

If i went to a GP -> ortho -> radiologist -> PT every time I had a musculature issue I'd be broke and perpetually waiting. Yes, serious issues need to be addressed by specialists. If I have a bit of back pain because I have some muscular imbalances/patterns then a good chiro is a perfectly suitable.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16710 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-15 21:01:28
January 15 2016 20:54 GMT
#3704
usually for me its GP then stretching exercises. Occasionally, its emerg. then stretching exercises.

step #1 is diagnosis and no one with the proper resources uses a chiropractor for diagnosis... and self-diagnosis is a bad idea.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
GoTuNk!
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Chile4591 Posts
January 15 2016 23:49 GMT
#3705
On January 16 2016 05:51 decafchicken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2016 05:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i never said he was the best in canada.
i stated he is a highly skilled diagnostician... and i found this out via legwork and research. i worked damn hard finding this guy. People need to take responsibility for their health and spend time doing the legwork and research necessary to find the best DR they can.

here is the problem with a chiropractor..
when the only tool you own is a hammer.. everything looks like a nail.

On January 16 2016 05:35 decafchicken wrote:
On January 16 2016 05:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Diagnosis is your first priority. the question is .. who is the best diagnositician? it damn sure ain't a chiropractor.


I'm not going to my chiro to get cancer diagnosed, it's usually for sports related muscle or joint pain/dysfunction, something my chiro knows plenty enough about to diagnose and help.


i essentially employ the strategy pro sports teams use when dealing with musculoskeletal issues.

Bo Jackson would've spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair if a chiropractor made the diagnosis of his sore hip. Fortunately, the Oakland Raiders were smart enough to have a more qualified professional examine him.


Nobody goes to a chiro after dislocating their hip. And any chiro who pretends they are the ones that should diagnose and care for that injury is a bad doctor. And I think we've established that bad doctors are bad and good doctors are good.

If i went to a GP -> ortho -> radiologist -> PT every time I had a musculature issue I'd be broke and perpetually waiting. Yes, serious issues need to be addressed by specialists. If I have a bit of back pain because I have some muscular imbalances/patterns then a good chiro is a perfectly suitable.


Sums it up imo
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16710 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-16 05:04:36
January 16 2016 04:55 GMT
#3706
assuming every GP visit automatically results in an appointment with an orthopeadic surgeon and a radiologist evaluating an MRI/X-Ray/Ultrasound is a straw man.

every Sports Medicine Clinic in Ontario and most Clinics throughout North America start you off with a visit with a GP/Physician who has an 8 month certificate in sports medicine. They diagnose and recommend a course of treatment. At the clinic are physiotherapists, acupuncturists, chiros, etc etc all at their disposal at a Sports Medicine Clinic. you may indeed end up going to a chiropractor for treatment after the MD examines you.

that's my favoured method of diagnosing a suspected musculoskeletal issue. its the straight forward common sense approach. relying on a chiropractor for initial injury diagnossis is a bad move. no one with insurance does it.

i'd never go to a Sports Medicine Clinic whose first point of contact was not an MD, If a Sports Medicine Clinic wanted my initial visit to be with a Chiro for diagnosis and treatment plan i'd leave and find any one of 3485398759847 Sports Med. Clinics that start you off with a MD who specializes in diagnosis.

if you have anything else wrong with you .. and i mean ANYTHING...
high blood pressure, low blood pressure, heart murmur, diabetes, hypoglycemia , recent wisdom tooth extraction, swollen glands, fluid retention issues, swollen tonsils and any one of 10,000 other medical issues ... going to a chiropractor for any recent suspected musculoskeletal issue is an idiot move.

which again , is yet another reason why Sports Medicine Clinics start you off with a diagnosis by an MD and not a chiro. The primary reason is that the GP with Sports Med Certification is a far better diagnostician than a chiropractor.

if you want your initial visit to be with a chiropractor on the cheap because you don't have insurance then i have 2 words for you

Caveat Emptor
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
January 16 2016 07:00 GMT
#3707
Ok, I went to a GP. He x-rayed my back to make sure I didn't have any bulging discs, gave me Naproxen and a muscle relaxant and told me to come back in 6 months if it still hurt. What do? The only thing GPs are interested in in this area is getting as many Medicaid recipients as they can through the door.

I'd also suggest that a chiropractor is not radically different than self-diagnosing through a Kelly Starrett video or any of the other numerous dubious things we do here.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16710 Posts
January 16 2016 08:26 GMT
#3708
great, go to a better GP.

as i stated in the post above.... if i didn't have a really top notch GP ...

i'd go to a Sports Medicine clinic where u start with a GP who has sports medicine training. on site at the clinic are physiotherapists, an orthopeadic surgeon, an acupuncturist, a chiropractor. and maybe a guy who can do prolotherapy.

Sports Medicine GPs don't do the "see u in 6 months" thing they want u back on the field of play at 100% full playing capacity ASAP.

here is some great self diagnosis right here.


Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20020 Posts
January 16 2016 19:31 GMT
#3709
We don't have sports medicine clinics. We also have very very few GPs with sports medicine training. We also don't have free health care.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
trulojucreathrma.com
Profile Blog Joined December 2015
United States327 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-19 22:47:07
January 19 2016 19:42 GMT
#3710
Chiropractors are frauds and their treatment can be dangerous. It is not a harmless placebo.
WarSame
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1950 Posts
January 31 2016 23:58 GMT
#3711
How do you fit core into your workout routine? Currently I'm only doing upper body(bench, curls, etc.) and lower body(squats, calf raises, etc.) days, but I would like to put core in there somewhere. Is it possible to split core between 2 days like that? Do you have a dedicated core day?

On a related note, what exercises would you recommend for core?

On an unrelated note, I just did a PR 255x5 squat as part of a pyramid set, so I'm pretty happy!
Can it be I stayed away too long? Did you miss these rhymes while I was gone?
XDEKSDEEXD
Profile Joined June 2013
622 Posts
February 01 2016 10:46 GMT
#3712
Guys, I have three simple questions

1. Protein. Does it have to be before/during/after workout? Or there is no magic timing, as long as you maintain your protein intake throughout the day you should be ok?

2. When you want to grow muscle, is it best to lift heavy for say, 8 reps and rest and repeat? Or is it best to go 15 relatively light, then 12 medium and 8 heavy?

3. Machine vs dumbbells. Which is better? There is a machine for chest press/incline chest press. How does this compare to doing chest press with dumbbells? Similarly, using cables for, say, bicep curls. How does this compare vs using traditional dumbbells for bicep curls?

Thanks guys.
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20020 Posts
February 01 2016 15:33 GMT
#3713
On February 01 2016 19:46 Longstory5 wrote:
Guys, I have three simple questions

1. Protein. Does it have to be before/during/after workout? Or there is no magic timing, as long as you maintain your protein intake throughout the day you should be ok?

2. When you want to grow muscle, is it best to lift heavy for say, 8 reps and rest and repeat? Or is it best to go 15 relatively light, then 12 medium and 8 heavy?

3. Machine vs dumbbells. Which is better? There is a machine for chest press/incline chest press. How does this compare to doing chest press with dumbbells? Similarly, using cables for, say, bicep curls. How does this compare vs using traditional dumbbells for bicep curls?

Thanks guys.


1) Constant protein throughout the day, totaling about 1g/lb of bodyweight. I have a whey protein shake w/ water before/during my workout and then protein the form of meat or w/e post workout. Casein protein preferably before bed.

2) In simple terms, lower reps (1-3) with heavier weights builds more max strength, medium reps (5-8) builds strength and size, higher reps (8-12) is more size focused and over that is pretty much just endurance. Most people here will recommend a 5x5 rep scheme as it builds a nice foundation of strength and noticeable size gains before moving on to a more strength(power lifting, weightlifting, etc) or body building program.

3) Free weights (barbell, dumbell, kettlebell) almost always >>> machines, except in some rare cases like working around injuries or rehab. Machines make you move in unnatural patterns and your body doesn't work your stabilizing muscles which are very important.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
XDEKSDEEXD
Profile Joined June 2013
622 Posts
February 01 2016 23:19 GMT
#3714
On February 02 2016 00:33 decafchicken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2016 19:46 Longstory5 wrote:
Guys, I have three simple questions

1. Protein. Does it have to be before/during/after workout? Or there is no magic timing, as long as you maintain your protein intake throughout the day you should be ok?

2. When you want to grow muscle, is it best to lift heavy for say, 8 reps and rest and repeat? Or is it best to go 15 relatively light, then 12 medium and 8 heavy?

3. Machine vs dumbbells. Which is better? There is a machine for chest press/incline chest press. How does this compare to doing chest press with dumbbells? Similarly, using cables for, say, bicep curls. How does this compare vs using traditional dumbbells for bicep curls?

Thanks guys.


1) Constant protein throughout the day, totaling about 1g/lb of bodyweight. I have a whey protein shake w/ water before/during my workout and then protein the form of meat or w/e post workout. Casein protein preferably before bed.

2) In simple terms, lower reps (1-3) with heavier weights builds more max strength, medium reps (5-8) builds strength and size, higher reps (8-12) is more size focused and over that is pretty much just endurance. Most people here will recommend a 5x5 rep scheme as it builds a nice foundation of strength and noticeable size gains before moving on to a more strength(power lifting, weightlifting, etc) or body building program.

3) Free weights (barbell, dumbell, kettlebell) almost always >>> machines, except in some rare cases like working around injuries or rehab. Machines make you move in unnatural patterns and your body doesn't work your stabilizing muscles which are very important.



Thanks friend. I understand questions 1 and 3 now.

However, question 2 is still confusing to me. So, should I go 8 reps, rest repeat a few times, or go 15, rest, 12, rest, 8?
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20020 Posts
February 02 2016 05:10 GMT
#3715
On February 02 2016 08:19 Longstory5 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2016 00:33 decafchicken wrote:
On February 01 2016 19:46 Longstory5 wrote:
Guys, I have three simple questions

1. Protein. Does it have to be before/during/after workout? Or there is no magic timing, as long as you maintain your protein intake throughout the day you should be ok?

2. When you want to grow muscle, is it best to lift heavy for say, 8 reps and rest and repeat? Or is it best to go 15 relatively light, then 12 medium and 8 heavy?

3. Machine vs dumbbells. Which is better? There is a machine for chest press/incline chest press. How does this compare to doing chest press with dumbbells? Similarly, using cables for, say, bicep curls. How does this compare vs using traditional dumbbells for bicep curls?

Thanks guys.


1) Constant protein throughout the day, totaling about 1g/lb of bodyweight. I have a whey protein shake w/ water before/during my workout and then protein the form of meat or w/e post workout. Casein protein preferably before bed.

2) In simple terms, lower reps (1-3) with heavier weights builds more max strength, medium reps (5-8) builds strength and size, higher reps (8-12) is more size focused and over that is pretty much just endurance. Most people here will recommend a 5x5 rep scheme as it builds a nice foundation of strength and noticeable size gains before moving on to a more strength(power lifting, weightlifting, etc) or body building program.

3) Free weights (barbell, dumbell, kettlebell) almost always >>> machines, except in some rare cases like working around injuries or rehab. Machines make you move in unnatural patterns and your body doesn't work your stabilizing muscles which are very important.



Thanks friend. I understand questions 1 and 3 now.

However, question 2 is still confusing to me. So, should I go 8 reps, rest repeat a few times, or go 15, rest, 12, rest, 8?


I'd recommend giving the general training advice sticky a read through to answer your question a bit better:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sports/261928-general-training-recommendations
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15328 Posts
February 02 2016 12:39 GMT
#3716
Also, it would be easier to answer if you could be more precise with what you want to achieve. What does "grow muscle" mean to you? What are your goals?
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
February 02 2016 13:59 GMT
#3717
I had a discussion with a colleague today about electric stomach muscle trainers. Do those things actually work to build muscle? I'm quite sure they don't burn any fat, but I can imagine that they help build muscle in addition to other exercises. Colleague said they are 100% useless, don't build muscle, don't burn fat and are just expensive self flagellation.
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20020 Posts
February 02 2016 14:10 GMT
#3718
I agree with your colleague.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
February 02 2016 16:24 GMT
#3719
Also, muscle without mind-body connection and CNS development sounds equally useless.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6211 Posts
February 02 2016 16:57 GMT
#3720
With those kind of things I always ask myself: Do other crazy strong people use them? If the answer is no (always the case tbh lol) it's probably useless.
Prev 1 184 185 186 187 188 191 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 4m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ForJumy 160
SteadfastSC 100
NeuroSwarm 39
StarCraft: Brood War
ggaemo 136
Aegong 37
NaDa 30
Stormgate
ZombieGrub330
Nathanias216
UpATreeSC198
JuggernautJason55
NightEnD19
Dota 2
syndereN523
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K651
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King21
Liquid`Ken13
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu515
Other Games
summit1g9150
tarik_tv7650
Grubby2319
shahzam581
C9.Mang0122
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH295
• StrangeGG 79
• davetesta52
• RyuSc2 15
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 56
• Eskiya23 25
• Pr0nogo 3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22831
League of Legends
• Doublelift5063
• TFBlade685
Counter-Strike
• Shiphtur369
Other Games
• imaqtpie1965
Upcoming Events
DaveTesta Events
2h 4m
The PondCast
12h 4m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
13h 4m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
LiuLi Cup
1d 13h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 17h
RSL Revival
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
RotterdaM Event
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Disclosure: This page contains affiliate marketing links that support TLnet.

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.