• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 12:30
CET 18:30
KST 02:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13
StarCraft 2
General
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win SC2 Proleague Discontinued; SKT, KT, SGK, CJ disband
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation
Brood War
General
The top three worst maps of all time Foreign Brood War BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Data analysis on 70 million replays BW General Discussion
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread The Perfect Game
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
Physical Exertion During Gam…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1622 users

Fitness Questions & Answers - Page 186

Forum Index > Sports
Post a Reply
Prev 1 184 185 186 187 188 191 Next
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20083 Posts
January 15 2016 20:35 GMT
#3701
On January 16 2016 05:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Diagnosis is your first priority. the question is .. who is the best diagnositician? it damn sure ain't a chiropractor.


I'm not going to my chiro to get cancer diagnosed, it's usually for sports related muscle or joint pain/dysfunction, something my chiro knows plenty enough about to diagnose and help.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17094 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-15 20:47:43
January 15 2016 20:36 GMT
#3702
i never said he was the best in canada.
i stated he is a highly skilled diagnostician... and i found this out via legwork and research. i worked damn hard finding this guy. People need to take responsibility for their health and spend time doing the legwork and research necessary to find the best DR they can.

here is the problem with a chiropractor..
when the only tool you own is a hammer.. everything looks like a nail.

On January 16 2016 05:35 decafchicken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2016 05:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Diagnosis is your first priority. the question is .. who is the best diagnositician? it damn sure ain't a chiropractor.


I'm not going to my chiro to get cancer diagnosed, it's usually for sports related muscle or joint pain/dysfunction, something my chiro knows plenty enough about to diagnose and help.


right, and right there u r diagnosing yourself with over-simplified examples. i essentially employ the strategy pro sports teams use when dealing with musculoskeletal issues.

Bo Jackson would've spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair if a chiropractor made the diagnosis of his sore hip. Fortunately, the Oakland Raiders were smart enough to have a more qualified professional examine him.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20083 Posts
January 15 2016 20:51 GMT
#3703
On January 16 2016 05:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i never said he was the best in canada.
i stated he is a highly skilled diagnostician... and i found this out via legwork and research. i worked damn hard finding this guy. People need to take responsibility for their health and spend time doing the legwork and research necessary to find the best DR they can.

here is the problem with a chiropractor..
when the only tool you own is a hammer.. everything looks like a nail.

Show nested quote +
On January 16 2016 05:35 decafchicken wrote:
On January 16 2016 05:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Diagnosis is your first priority. the question is .. who is the best diagnositician? it damn sure ain't a chiropractor.


I'm not going to my chiro to get cancer diagnosed, it's usually for sports related muscle or joint pain/dysfunction, something my chiro knows plenty enough about to diagnose and help.


i essentially employ the strategy pro sports teams use when dealing with musculoskeletal issues.

Bo Jackson would've spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair if a chiropractor made the diagnosis of his sore hip. Fortunately, the Oakland Raiders were smart enough to have a more qualified professional examine him.


Nobody goes to a chiro after dislocating their hip. And any chiro who pretends they are the ones that should diagnose and care for that injury is a bad doctor. And I think we've established that bad doctors are bad and good doctors are good.

If i went to a GP -> ortho -> radiologist -> PT every time I had a musculature issue I'd be broke and perpetually waiting. Yes, serious issues need to be addressed by specialists. If I have a bit of back pain because I have some muscular imbalances/patterns then a good chiro is a perfectly suitable.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17094 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-15 21:01:28
January 15 2016 20:54 GMT
#3704
usually for me its GP then stretching exercises. Occasionally, its emerg. then stretching exercises.

step #1 is diagnosis and no one with the proper resources uses a chiropractor for diagnosis... and self-diagnosis is a bad idea.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
GoTuNk!
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Chile4591 Posts
January 15 2016 23:49 GMT
#3705
On January 16 2016 05:51 decafchicken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2016 05:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i never said he was the best in canada.
i stated he is a highly skilled diagnostician... and i found this out via legwork and research. i worked damn hard finding this guy. People need to take responsibility for their health and spend time doing the legwork and research necessary to find the best DR they can.

here is the problem with a chiropractor..
when the only tool you own is a hammer.. everything looks like a nail.

On January 16 2016 05:35 decafchicken wrote:
On January 16 2016 05:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Diagnosis is your first priority. the question is .. who is the best diagnositician? it damn sure ain't a chiropractor.


I'm not going to my chiro to get cancer diagnosed, it's usually for sports related muscle or joint pain/dysfunction, something my chiro knows plenty enough about to diagnose and help.


i essentially employ the strategy pro sports teams use when dealing with musculoskeletal issues.

Bo Jackson would've spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair if a chiropractor made the diagnosis of his sore hip. Fortunately, the Oakland Raiders were smart enough to have a more qualified professional examine him.


Nobody goes to a chiro after dislocating their hip. And any chiro who pretends they are the ones that should diagnose and care for that injury is a bad doctor. And I think we've established that bad doctors are bad and good doctors are good.

If i went to a GP -> ortho -> radiologist -> PT every time I had a musculature issue I'd be broke and perpetually waiting. Yes, serious issues need to be addressed by specialists. If I have a bit of back pain because I have some muscular imbalances/patterns then a good chiro is a perfectly suitable.


Sums it up imo
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17094 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-16 05:04:36
January 16 2016 04:55 GMT
#3706
assuming every GP visit automatically results in an appointment with an orthopeadic surgeon and a radiologist evaluating an MRI/X-Ray/Ultrasound is a straw man.

every Sports Medicine Clinic in Ontario and most Clinics throughout North America start you off with a visit with a GP/Physician who has an 8 month certificate in sports medicine. They diagnose and recommend a course of treatment. At the clinic are physiotherapists, acupuncturists, chiros, etc etc all at their disposal at a Sports Medicine Clinic. you may indeed end up going to a chiropractor for treatment after the MD examines you.

that's my favoured method of diagnosing a suspected musculoskeletal issue. its the straight forward common sense approach. relying on a chiropractor for initial injury diagnossis is a bad move. no one with insurance does it.

i'd never go to a Sports Medicine Clinic whose first point of contact was not an MD, If a Sports Medicine Clinic wanted my initial visit to be with a Chiro for diagnosis and treatment plan i'd leave and find any one of 3485398759847 Sports Med. Clinics that start you off with a MD who specializes in diagnosis.

if you have anything else wrong with you .. and i mean ANYTHING...
high blood pressure, low blood pressure, heart murmur, diabetes, hypoglycemia , recent wisdom tooth extraction, swollen glands, fluid retention issues, swollen tonsils and any one of 10,000 other medical issues ... going to a chiropractor for any recent suspected musculoskeletal issue is an idiot move.

which again , is yet another reason why Sports Medicine Clinics start you off with a diagnosis by an MD and not a chiro. The primary reason is that the GP with Sports Med Certification is a far better diagnostician than a chiropractor.

if you want your initial visit to be with a chiropractor on the cheap because you don't have insurance then i have 2 words for you

Caveat Emptor
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
January 16 2016 07:00 GMT
#3707
Ok, I went to a GP. He x-rayed my back to make sure I didn't have any bulging discs, gave me Naproxen and a muscle relaxant and told me to come back in 6 months if it still hurt. What do? The only thing GPs are interested in in this area is getting as many Medicaid recipients as they can through the door.

I'd also suggest that a chiropractor is not radically different than self-diagnosing through a Kelly Starrett video or any of the other numerous dubious things we do here.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17094 Posts
January 16 2016 08:26 GMT
#3708
great, go to a better GP.

as i stated in the post above.... if i didn't have a really top notch GP ...

i'd go to a Sports Medicine clinic where u start with a GP who has sports medicine training. on site at the clinic are physiotherapists, an orthopeadic surgeon, an acupuncturist, a chiropractor. and maybe a guy who can do prolotherapy.

Sports Medicine GPs don't do the "see u in 6 months" thing they want u back on the field of play at 100% full playing capacity ASAP.

here is some great self diagnosis right here.


Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20083 Posts
January 16 2016 19:31 GMT
#3709
We don't have sports medicine clinics. We also have very very few GPs with sports medicine training. We also don't have free health care.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
trulojucreathrma.com
Profile Blog Joined December 2015
United States327 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-19 22:47:07
January 19 2016 19:42 GMT
#3710
Chiropractors are frauds and their treatment can be dangerous. It is not a harmless placebo.
WarSame
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1950 Posts
January 31 2016 23:58 GMT
#3711
How do you fit core into your workout routine? Currently I'm only doing upper body(bench, curls, etc.) and lower body(squats, calf raises, etc.) days, but I would like to put core in there somewhere. Is it possible to split core between 2 days like that? Do you have a dedicated core day?

On a related note, what exercises would you recommend for core?

On an unrelated note, I just did a PR 255x5 squat as part of a pyramid set, so I'm pretty happy!
Can it be I stayed away too long? Did you miss these rhymes while I was gone?
XDEKSDEEXD
Profile Joined June 2013
622 Posts
February 01 2016 10:46 GMT
#3712
Guys, I have three simple questions

1. Protein. Does it have to be before/during/after workout? Or there is no magic timing, as long as you maintain your protein intake throughout the day you should be ok?

2. When you want to grow muscle, is it best to lift heavy for say, 8 reps and rest and repeat? Or is it best to go 15 relatively light, then 12 medium and 8 heavy?

3. Machine vs dumbbells. Which is better? There is a machine for chest press/incline chest press. How does this compare to doing chest press with dumbbells? Similarly, using cables for, say, bicep curls. How does this compare vs using traditional dumbbells for bicep curls?

Thanks guys.
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20083 Posts
February 01 2016 15:33 GMT
#3713
On February 01 2016 19:46 Longstory5 wrote:
Guys, I have three simple questions

1. Protein. Does it have to be before/during/after workout? Or there is no magic timing, as long as you maintain your protein intake throughout the day you should be ok?

2. When you want to grow muscle, is it best to lift heavy for say, 8 reps and rest and repeat? Or is it best to go 15 relatively light, then 12 medium and 8 heavy?

3. Machine vs dumbbells. Which is better? There is a machine for chest press/incline chest press. How does this compare to doing chest press with dumbbells? Similarly, using cables for, say, bicep curls. How does this compare vs using traditional dumbbells for bicep curls?

Thanks guys.


1) Constant protein throughout the day, totaling about 1g/lb of bodyweight. I have a whey protein shake w/ water before/during my workout and then protein the form of meat or w/e post workout. Casein protein preferably before bed.

2) In simple terms, lower reps (1-3) with heavier weights builds more max strength, medium reps (5-8) builds strength and size, higher reps (8-12) is more size focused and over that is pretty much just endurance. Most people here will recommend a 5x5 rep scheme as it builds a nice foundation of strength and noticeable size gains before moving on to a more strength(power lifting, weightlifting, etc) or body building program.

3) Free weights (barbell, dumbell, kettlebell) almost always >>> machines, except in some rare cases like working around injuries or rehab. Machines make you move in unnatural patterns and your body doesn't work your stabilizing muscles which are very important.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
XDEKSDEEXD
Profile Joined June 2013
622 Posts
February 01 2016 23:19 GMT
#3714
On February 02 2016 00:33 decafchicken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2016 19:46 Longstory5 wrote:
Guys, I have three simple questions

1. Protein. Does it have to be before/during/after workout? Or there is no magic timing, as long as you maintain your protein intake throughout the day you should be ok?

2. When you want to grow muscle, is it best to lift heavy for say, 8 reps and rest and repeat? Or is it best to go 15 relatively light, then 12 medium and 8 heavy?

3. Machine vs dumbbells. Which is better? There is a machine for chest press/incline chest press. How does this compare to doing chest press with dumbbells? Similarly, using cables for, say, bicep curls. How does this compare vs using traditional dumbbells for bicep curls?

Thanks guys.


1) Constant protein throughout the day, totaling about 1g/lb of bodyweight. I have a whey protein shake w/ water before/during my workout and then protein the form of meat or w/e post workout. Casein protein preferably before bed.

2) In simple terms, lower reps (1-3) with heavier weights builds more max strength, medium reps (5-8) builds strength and size, higher reps (8-12) is more size focused and over that is pretty much just endurance. Most people here will recommend a 5x5 rep scheme as it builds a nice foundation of strength and noticeable size gains before moving on to a more strength(power lifting, weightlifting, etc) or body building program.

3) Free weights (barbell, dumbell, kettlebell) almost always >>> machines, except in some rare cases like working around injuries or rehab. Machines make you move in unnatural patterns and your body doesn't work your stabilizing muscles which are very important.



Thanks friend. I understand questions 1 and 3 now.

However, question 2 is still confusing to me. So, should I go 8 reps, rest repeat a few times, or go 15, rest, 12, rest, 8?
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20083 Posts
February 02 2016 05:10 GMT
#3715
On February 02 2016 08:19 Longstory5 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2016 00:33 decafchicken wrote:
On February 01 2016 19:46 Longstory5 wrote:
Guys, I have three simple questions

1. Protein. Does it have to be before/during/after workout? Or there is no magic timing, as long as you maintain your protein intake throughout the day you should be ok?

2. When you want to grow muscle, is it best to lift heavy for say, 8 reps and rest and repeat? Or is it best to go 15 relatively light, then 12 medium and 8 heavy?

3. Machine vs dumbbells. Which is better? There is a machine for chest press/incline chest press. How does this compare to doing chest press with dumbbells? Similarly, using cables for, say, bicep curls. How does this compare vs using traditional dumbbells for bicep curls?

Thanks guys.


1) Constant protein throughout the day, totaling about 1g/lb of bodyweight. I have a whey protein shake w/ water before/during my workout and then protein the form of meat or w/e post workout. Casein protein preferably before bed.

2) In simple terms, lower reps (1-3) with heavier weights builds more max strength, medium reps (5-8) builds strength and size, higher reps (8-12) is more size focused and over that is pretty much just endurance. Most people here will recommend a 5x5 rep scheme as it builds a nice foundation of strength and noticeable size gains before moving on to a more strength(power lifting, weightlifting, etc) or body building program.

3) Free weights (barbell, dumbell, kettlebell) almost always >>> machines, except in some rare cases like working around injuries or rehab. Machines make you move in unnatural patterns and your body doesn't work your stabilizing muscles which are very important.



Thanks friend. I understand questions 1 and 3 now.

However, question 2 is still confusing to me. So, should I go 8 reps, rest repeat a few times, or go 15, rest, 12, rest, 8?


I'd recommend giving the general training advice sticky a read through to answer your question a bit better:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sports/261928-general-training-recommendations
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15357 Posts
February 02 2016 12:39 GMT
#3716
Also, it would be easier to answer if you could be more precise with what you want to achieve. What does "grow muscle" mean to you? What are your goals?
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
February 02 2016 13:59 GMT
#3717
I had a discussion with a colleague today about electric stomach muscle trainers. Do those things actually work to build muscle? I'm quite sure they don't burn any fat, but I can imagine that they help build muscle in addition to other exercises. Colleague said they are 100% useless, don't build muscle, don't burn fat and are just expensive self flagellation.
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20083 Posts
February 02 2016 14:10 GMT
#3718
I agree with your colleague.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
February 02 2016 16:24 GMT
#3719
Also, muscle without mind-body connection and CNS development sounds equally useless.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6261 Posts
February 02 2016 16:57 GMT
#3720
With those kind of things I always ask myself: Do other crazy strong people use them? If the answer is no (always the case tbh lol) it's probably useless.
Prev 1 184 185 186 187 188 191 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
IPSL
17:00
Ro8 Set 2
Bonyth vs KameZerg
Liquipedia
OSC
15:00
King of the Hill #233
SteadfastSC117
Liquipedia
WardiTV 2025
12:00
Group Stage 1 - Group B
Ryung vs ShamelessLIVE!
WardiTV1549
ComeBackTV 589
TaKeTV 369
IndyStarCraft 283
Rex110
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 287
ProTech128
Rex 110
SteadfastSC 94
BRAT_OK 42
MindelVK 22
StarCraft: Brood War
EffOrt 865
Jaedong 564
BeSt 160
Mini 154
ggaemo 126
Last 112
910 101
Hyun 77
Killer 76
LaStScan 75
[ Show more ]
Dewaltoss 39
Shinee 37
Barracks 35
Mind 35
HiyA 7
Dota 2
Gorgc5859
qojqva4496
Dendi653
syndereN557
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m6329
byalli739
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King85
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu429
Khaldor258
Other Games
ArmadaUGS193
XaKoH 81
mouzStarbuck65
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV1997
StarCraft 2
angryscii 1
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 32
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• WagamamaTV257
• Shiphtur193
Upcoming Events
BSL 21
2h 30m
Bonyth vs StRyKeR
Tarson vs Dandy
Replay Cast
15h 30m
Wardi Open
18h 30m
StarCraft2.fi
22h 30m
Monday Night Weeklies
23h 30m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
WardiTV 2025
1d 18h
StarCraft2.fi
1d 22h
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
StarCraft2.fi
2 days
[ Show More ]
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
WardiTV 2025
3 days
StarCraft2.fi
3 days
WardiTV 2025
4 days
StarCraft2.fi
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
IPSL
5 days
Sziky vs JDConan
RSL Revival
6 days
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
6 days
IPSL
6 days
Tarson vs DragOn
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-12-04
RSL Revival: Season 3
Light HT

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
Acropolis #4 - TS3
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
Kuram Kup
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Disclosure: This page contains affiliate marketing links that support TLnet.

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.