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On April 23 2012 00:13 Hollow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 20:35 ][Primarch][ wrote: I really don't like "girls only" tournaments, I think girls can do just as well as guys in any computer-game. And I think all tourneys should be open for everyone. I don't see why they couldn't, unless there is an unknown biological factor. But it has never happened yet, and I wonder what is the cause of this.
I agree, where computers even the playing field for all unlike say the NFL where 400 pound line backers are the norm, in esports its level, it think its just so they get more recognition in a "girls" only tournament where they may not in another. not sure if it hurts or helps females in esports.
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I think its really strange that Scarlett is allowed to participate in a females only-tournament. I am not questioning her official sex but rather the fact that she was born a male and so could possibly be unequal in ability to the other participants. The whole point of a female league is to give an even playing field, not just recognition for female gamers.
Please don't take this as an anti-transgender rant because it clearly isn't. Also, I am not implying that men ARE more capable than women at Starcraft II. I am sticking to anecdotal and statistical reasoning that they may be.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Would a man pretend to be transgender in order to enter a female only sc2 tourney?
I believe that's the only issue to worry about. No clue about the answer or the ramifications if it ever happens to be a yes but I do know this:
You make the scenario less likely by increasing the skill level of female only sc2 competitions and you increase the skill level by getting more women into esports, so every successfully run tournament is a good thing.
GL and may the best woman win.
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luway is legit.....ridiculous 32-5 Grandmaster's account on NA server. I think if she plays she will win.
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Oh I had no idea that maddelisk is a woman, I saw her ID at dreamhack, I hope she does well, along with scarlett.
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On April 23 2012 03:09 xjoehammerx wrote: luway is legit.....ridiculous 32-5 Grandmaster's account on NA server. I think if she plays she will win. New account or was it GM/Masters in the prior season? If it's a brand new account then GM 32-5 isn't that impressive since a lot of those games will have been against low level people. 32-5 with an existing account is impressive.
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She has been GM for a few seasons now.
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Cant wait to see MajOr compete in this tournament, he just has to tell the organizers he identifies as a female. No need send in fake ID for female tournaments like he did in BW
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On April 23 2012 00:13 Hollow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 20:35 ][Primarch][ wrote: I really don't like "girls only" tournaments, I think girls can do just as well as guys in any computer-game. And I think all tourneys should be open for everyone. I don't see why they couldn't, unless there is an unknown biological factor. But it has never happened yet, and I wonder what is the cause of this.
You are wrong and it´s not unknown
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5544
and this you just can´t change by adding boobs and growing hair long
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Scarlett's gonna take this :D:D ezpz
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I love all of them so much, I don't even know who I'm rooting for the most. I hope they can present the SC2 community some fantastic games.
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On April 23 2012 01:45 sparkk51 wrote: I think its really strange that Scarlett is allowed to participate in a females only-tournament. I am not questioning her official sex but rather the fact that she was born a male and so could possibly be unequal in ability to the other participants. The whole point of a female league is to give an even playing field, not just recognition for female gamers.
Please don't take this as an anti-transgender rant because it clearly isn't. Also, I am not implying that men ARE more capable than women at Starcraft II. I am sticking to anecdotal and statistical reasoning that they may be.
User was temp banned for this post.
Spoiler tagged this because I got to the point of wall-o-texting about why the above attitude is silly.
+ Show Spoiler + This is stupid, why do people keep bringing up this idea that men might be inherently better at starcraft than women? Its absolutely ridiculous. What kind of biological reason could there POSSIBLY be for that? The *ONLY* think I can think of is
1 - Women are less competitive. This isn't a valid argument. At all. This is a social construct. There are many competitive women. Even overcompetitive women. Women are not inherently submissive, and saying competitiveness is a male dominated trait is borderline sexism. It implies that because society has promoted and still to some extent promotes competition for men, women are not allowed to be or expected not to be competitive themselves. Thats stupid.
2 - The opposite side of the argument. Women could be expected to be BETTER at starcraft due to greater multitasking capability. This is more contentious, but to my mind, it doesn't make sense. Now, bear in mind, I am a bronze player. I have absolutely no idea of how someones brain works when they're throwing out 600+APM micro. But as far as I see it, the two prime limitations of a starcraft player are tactical thinking/decision making under pressure, and the ability to hit the right keys in the right order really damned fast, practised movements, almost unconscious. And since our peripherals are serial input devices, we don't have the capability to input more than one command at once. Its all about how fast we can give commands one at a time.
And the UI of the game doesn't provide us with the opportunity to actually give multiple commands at once. What we percieve as multitasking in games, is actually the rapid initiation of multiple individual things one after the other. The speed with which a player can switch between individual tasks allows them to initiate actions so quickly that they can return to inputting the next action before the first one has finished.
Now to my mind, that isn't multitasking. Thats one task. Men can do it. Women can do it. There's no reason to assume either side has any innate advantage here. If someone can provide me with an example of true multitasking (Thinking of multiple things at the same time) in starcraft, I'll take their comments on board.
So to my mind, there should BE no debate on transgender, or even gender, period, in starcraft. At least not for any "potential skill" based reason.
Now, a second point, seperate to the first. There may be some merit in discussing the exposure of female players to the scene and in the scene. There are two sides to this. One says that women should be judged on the same stages as men. I agree with this on the INTENDED principle of fair competition. (Whatever the actual view of the principle might turn out to be for the individual, it comes back to this eventually.) There's no reason to provide greater opportunity to one group, when choosing between two groups of equal size.
The other says that because there are so many fewer women who play starcraft in general, at professional or casual levels, the continued growth of eSports depends on, (or at least, would greatly benefit from) its wider acceptance as a reasonable and respectable hobby, without the geek stigma it arguably suffers from currently. And that means women only leagues and promotion of female starcraft players, is essential in order to attract new players, bridge the gender divide, and foster the happiness of those female players who are setting examples and saying "Hey, there's no reason I can't do this, so I'm going to do it". Honestly, right now, for whatever damage people think it might do to the idea of "fair and broad unisex competition", I think this is the side of the argument where there is more merit. It DOES NOT have the potential to damage the prospects of male starcraft players. If a woman enters GSL, MLG, or Dreamhack, they win if and only if they have the most skill.
But if a woman enters a female only league, she simply has an opportunity to be encouraged, to find some pride in her chosen hobby/profession, and raise their own profile. And thats a good thing, because it raises the profile of starcraft, in many peoples eyes it improves the IMAGE of starcraft, and it has the potential to bring in new talent that otherwise wouldn't FIND an outlet.
Scarlett deserves every opportunity she can find. So does Flo. So does Eve. So do all female players and it will only benefit us (The starcraft community, I am male) in the long run. So do all male players for that matter, but they're not our focus.
If at some point we reach a stage where a large portion of all starcraft players are female, (again, both casually and professionally), then the viability of female only leagues might be somewhat worth questioning. At that point we (probably) won't have a gender-specific image problem as a community. We might at that point be justified in advocating a unisex tournament landscape, providing everyone with the same opportunities across the board.
But we're a long way away from that, and right now, offering more opportunities for women, and promoting the idea they get involved and join in, is a much greater benefit to eSports and Starcraft than NOT providing those extra opportunities.
Please note that above I have intentionally NOT mentioned skill at any point. There is a reason for this. I think that even now, with the minority status of women in eSports and starcraft, its nothing less than insulting to imply that there is an inherent skill gap that exists because of someones gender. There is nothing stopping a female player from breaking out right this second and crushing everyone, MKP, MMA, DRG, MVP, Naniwa, everyone.
Is that exceedingly unlikely? Yes. But no more so than it is for anyone else currently unknown. And it has nothing to do with our hypothetical person being a man or a woman. The statement "female players are currently not as good as male players" is ridiculously overextensive. Without knowledge of every female player, and their total skill, there is no way to prove it is true, and it only takes one amazing female player crushing a tournament to prove it false.
Stop trying to imply that female players are inherently different from male players in any meaningful way regarding skill. Its belittling and stupid, and the more people do it, the less welcome women who MAY HAVE the potential to be top players, will feel within the starcraft community.
Also I don't believe that chess article is valid. It's a collection of unsourced facts, given without context and without evidence of peer review having been carried out on the studies from which they came, combined with an assortment of opinion pieces written by the general public about a sport that is entirely different to starcraft. It's findings are not necessarily directly applicable, and even then, the list of facts isn't presented with any in line reasoning, its simply a list out of nowhere from which the reader is intended to draw their own conclusion, which will likely be the same as the article, owing to having been primed by the opinion piece before being presented with unqualified lists of possibly unrelated facts. Particularly suspicious is the number of times the words "May mean" and "could mean" appear alongside statements the authors know can't be given with certainty.
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On April 23 2012 06:26 Ilvy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 00:13 Hollow wrote:On April 22 2012 20:35 ][Primarch][ wrote: I really don't like "girls only" tournaments, I think girls can do just as well as guys in any computer-game. And I think all tourneys should be open for everyone. I don't see why they couldn't, unless there is an unknown biological factor. But it has never happened yet, and I wonder what is the cause of this. You are wrong and it´s not unknown http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5544and this you just can´t change by adding boobs and growing hair long I don't get this comment, are you saying that the only difference between women and men is boobs and long hair?
Is obvious that men and women think different, but I don't think that women have a handicap because of that, just look at Judit Polgar she has beated a lot of world champions without a problem.
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Anna Prosser should join too and Major.
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wohoo go Canadian chicks!!
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WTF Where are Megumixbear, Ms.Spyte and Idra? T_T
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Iron Lady Tournament is it some kind of special olympics? Just saying. I do not care about players gender. SC2 isn't armwrestling. If 12 yer old dude can play on dreamhack wtf is problem with girls? When we will have children only league tournament? Or it's all about boobs? Or its just to say: "Hey You! Ugly not popular females! Here, in e-sport, we have a lot of hungry males with no chance to meet normal women. You have good chances here! " Personally, I believe that competes in SC2 cup where you can get for having boobs and ... - pure disgrace.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 23 2012 10:44 Cheeseling wrote: Iron Lady Tournament is it some kind of special olympics? Just saying. I do not care about players gender. SC2 isn't armwrestling. If 12 yer old dude can play on dreamhack wtf is problem with girls? When we will have children only league tournament? Or it's all about boobs? Or its just to say: "Hey You! Ugly not popular females! Here, in e-sport, we have a lot of hungry males with no chance to meet normal women. You have good chances here! " Personally, I believe that competes in SC2 cup where you can get for having boobs and ... - pure disgrace.
I hope you don't mind that I mentally read this in a THICK Ukrainian accent.
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On April 23 2012 11:23 FaZe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:44 Cheeseling wrote: Iron Lady Tournament is it some kind of special olympics? Just saying. I do not care about players gender. SC2 isn't armwrestling. If 12 yer old dude can play on dreamhack wtf is problem with girls? When we will have children only league tournament? Or it's all about boobs? Or its just to say: "Hey You! Ugly not popular females! Here, in e-sport, we have a lot of hungry males with no chance to meet normal women. You have good chances here! " Personally, I believe that competes in SC2 cup where you can get for having boobs and ... - pure disgrace. I hope you don't mind that I mentally read this in a THICK Ukrainian accent. Like WhiteRa ? Too bad i can't hear it
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On April 23 2012 10:44 Cheeseling wrote: Iron Lady Tournament is it some kind of special olympics? Just saying. I do not care about players gender. SC2 isn't armwrestling. If 12 yer old dude can play on dreamhack wtf is problem with girls? When we will have children only league tournament? Or it's all about boobs? Or its just to say: "Hey You! Ugly not popular females! Here, in e-sport, we have a lot of hungry males with no chance to meet normal women. You have good chances here! " Personally, I believe that competes in SC2 cup where you can get for having boobs and ... - pure disgrace.
Well I hope you post these exact same sentiments in the following threads:
College Starcraft League threads (CSL, etc), also known as "competes in sc2 cup where you can get for having money/intelligence." Metal league tourneys, also known as "competes in sc2 cup where you can get for being bad." Country only tournaments (I believe there was a swede only one a while back), also known as "competes in sc2 cup where you can get for being born in some arbitrary location." Non-sponsored player tournaments (like the playhem one or the complexity academy ones), also known as "competes in sc2 cup where you can get for being undiscovered" Clan only tourneys (EG's most Evil Genius), also known as "competes in sc2 cup where you can get for being in EG" Company leagues (AHGL), also known as "competes in sc2 cup where you can get for having a tech job"
The reality is tournament organizers may choose any criteria they want for their tournament. Is it a disgrace in the other cases?
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