|
|
|
|
|
|
posted this in another thread but i think its also relevant i ask here; the tournament is in 7 hours but brackets and such are still blank on liquipedia. anywhere else i can follow the tourney? ;-;
this is the biggest one of the year so far i wanna follow!
|
Not sure the brackets are even drawn yet.
|
Groups for brackets were drawn a few days ago:
2 from each group will advance to the playoffs.
|
Nice
Looks like good splits
|
United States33388 Posts
Reminder that games/matchups are gonna suck on day one, like every big bracket that plays from bottom to top without any gimmicks (WCS season championships, Dreamhacks from 2010-2015, etc).
Y'all are going to regret complaining about the ESL Masters format being too complicated, cause the entire reason was to ensure there were good broadcast games on day one.
|
^ Strong agree. Saving my time and energy for Saturday and Sunday. :D
Of course, will check Liquipedia to see if random Texan teen knocks off Maru, but I... have my doubts.
|
|
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Based Honmono vs Harstem up first. I await the cheese
|
Harstem's got phenomenal posture for a gamer honestly.
|
I don't see a camera crane this year, maybe no crowd shots on stream
|
I'm not sure if Harstem's plan was entirely bad or it was only that his execution let him down.
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 24 2025 00:14 Die4Ever wrote:
I don't see a camera crane this year, maybe no crowd shots on stream
on that war3 budget now
|
On May 24 2025 00:32 Elentos wrote:
I'm not sure if Harstem's plan was entirely bad or it was only that his execution let him down.
Either way, I guess we're in for a good deal of 2-base boy-pull all-ins in TvP this weekend.
|
|
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Somehow the A and B streams are showing the same games already haha.
|
We should each take a shot whenever seeing SCV pull in a game.
|
On May 24 2025 02:17 tigera6 wrote:
We should each take a shot whenever seeing SCV pull in a game.
That would really get my steps in, cause the only alcohol for sale is over at the CS2 arena
|
Really felt like neither creator nor shin wanted to win that game 1.
|
|
|
Fin game2 between mana and rogue :D
|
No MaxPax again. So disappointing.
|
Showtime v Skillous is juicy PvP. I love that BW style classic Nexus skin.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Unexpectedly good TvP from Heromarine vs Zoun - Really used terrain well in the early games and closed out well.
|
man, i am giga annoyed how hard it is to find information on this tournament.
Can anyone please tell me if we are playing the entirety of the group stage today or is it finishing tomorrow? im very confused why the main broadcast just switched to group c when we havent concluded group a or b yet...
|
On May 24 2025 04:35 CicadaSC wrote:
man, i am giga annoyed how hard it is to find information on this tournament.
Can anyone please tell me if we are playing the entirety of the group stage today or is it finishing tomorrow? im very confused why the main broadcast just switched to group c when we havent concluded group a or b yet...
https://dreamhack.com/dallas/starcraft/
You have the schedule there
|
I'm just curious how were these groups drawn up? Aligulac rating?
im curious because some of these groups i think most people would be able to pick out 2 clear favorite and other groups there are like 4 or 5 players who could make it...
|
On May 24 2025 04:37 Kreuger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 04:35 CicadaSC wrote:
man, i am giga annoyed how hard it is to find information on this tournament.
Can anyone please tell me if we are playing the entirety of the group stage today or is it finishing tomorrow? im very confused why the main broadcast just switched to group c when we havent concluded group a or b yet... https://dreamhack.com/dallas/starcraft/You have the schedule there
thank you very much sir! I was using liquipedia
|
On May 24 2025 04:42 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 04:37 Kreuger wrote:On May 24 2025 04:35 CicadaSC wrote:
man, i am giga annoyed how hard it is to find information on this tournament.
Can anyone please tell me if we are playing the entirety of the group stage today or is it finishing tomorrow? im very confused why the main broadcast just switched to group c when we havent concluded group a or b yet... https://dreamhack.com/dallas/starcraft/You have the schedule there thank you very much sir! I was using liquipedia
your welcome, I use wiki 99% of the time aswell and its frustrating when it isnt updated :p.
|
Gerald with the mass tempest play, looks fun 
|
I could see this working with better army management from the Protoss. But it feels very 2014.
|
Tuned Out when reynor was Up 50 supply and Gerald looked dead now its a Split lategame, what happened?
|
Man and here I was hoping Reynor was gonna get tortured with another 50 minute macro game.
|
On May 24 2025 05:25 darklycid wrote:
Tuned Out when reynor was Up 50 supply and Gerald looked dead now its a Split lategame, what happened?
ZvP happened unfortunately
|
On May 24 2025 06:11 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 05:25 darklycid wrote:
Tuned Out when reynor was Up 50 supply and Gerald looked dead now its a Split lategame, what happened? ZvP happened unfortunately
Idk i feel Like in the Situation i tuned Out Most zergs should have won dunno If you can Put that on the mu.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
I hate the Tempest with a white hot passion. That must have been so demoralising for zhugeliang
|
I really hope Serral vs. Cosmiccow is a match we will see today.
|
On May 24 2025 06:32 Antithesis wrote:
I really hope Serral vs. Cosmiccow is a match we will see today.
I dunno sounds kind of hopeless for Serral.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
Who the fuck is Dolan and how did they take a game off herO?
I am loving a tourney where non-pros are duking it out with the big boys and gals, real throwback vibes
|
3 English streams on the same series, just how I like my SC2 tournaments
|
On May 24 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:
Who the fuck is Dolan and how did they take a game off herO?
I am loving a tourney where non-pros are duking it out with the big boys and gals, real throwback vibes
Dolan has been around since release I believe. Not a big name in any way, but also not a complete Noname
|
|
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out?
No, still alive this stage is double elim
|
On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out?
He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket.
More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral.
If Cosmiccow beat Serral, biggest upset in SC2 history?
The real big upsets, your Maru versus Meiomika tend to be in group formats, and yeah they’re a big upset but don’t tend to matter
.
Sjow beating Life has to be up there, but Sjow was a pro player
|
On May 24 2025 08:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out? He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral. If Cosmiccow beat Serral, biggest upset in SC2 history? The real big upsets, your Maru versus Meiomika tend to be in group formats, and yeah they’re a big upset but don’t tend to matter . Sjow beating Life has to be up there, but Sjow was a pro player
Yeah, it probably would have been. But alas, Serral already 2:0'ed the Cosmiccow without it having been covered on any of the streams. I'm mostly amused by the name.
|
On May 24 2025 09:17 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 08:45 WombaT wrote:On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out? He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral. If Cosmiccow beat Serral, biggest upset in SC2 history? The real big upsets, your Maru versus Meiomika tend to be in group formats, and yeah they’re a big upset but don’t tend to matter . Sjow beating Life has to be up there, but Sjow was a pro player Yeah, it probably would have been. But alas, Serral already 2:0'ed the Cosmiccow without it having been covered on any of the streams. I'm mostly amused by the name.
It was a close 2-0, I'm sure. Cosmiccow will destroy Serral when they meet in losers' finals.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 24 2025 09:27 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 09:17 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:45 WombaT wrote:On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out? He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral. If Cosmiccow beat Serral, biggest upset in SC2 history? The real big upsets, your Maru versus Meiomika tend to be in group formats, and yeah they’re a big upset but don’t tend to matter . Sjow beating Life has to be up there, but Sjow was a pro player Yeah, it probably would have been. But alas, Serral already 2:0'ed the Cosmiccow without it having been covered on any of the streams. I'm mostly amused by the name. It was a close 2-0, I'm sure. Cosmiccow will destroy Serral when they meet in losers' finals.
Fingers crossed
|
On May 24 2025 09:17 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 08:45 WombaT wrote:On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out? He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral. If Cosmiccow beat Serral, biggest upset in SC2 history? The real big upsets, your Maru versus Meiomika tend to be in group formats, and yeah they’re a big upset but don’t tend to matter . Sjow beating Life has to be up there, but Sjow was a pro player Yeah, it probably would have been. But alas, Serral already 2:0'ed the Cosmiccow without it having been covered on any of the streams. I'm mostly amused by the name.
Too bad BigDaddy is also already out and LaidOff has been prematurely terminated.
|
Pretty good day 1
Good casting
Harstem with the only chokejob in the bracket
|
United States1871 Posts
On May 24 2025 08:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out? He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral. If Cosmiccow beat Serral, biggest upset in SC2 history? The real big upsets, your Maru versus Meiomika tend to be in group formats, and yeah they’re a big upset but don’t tend to matter . Sjow beating Life has to be up there, but Sjow was a pro player
RTK beating GuMiho is on a tier all its own.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 24 2025 10:49 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 08:45 WombaT wrote:On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out? He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral. If Cosmiccow beat Serral, biggest upset in SC2 history? The real big upsets, your Maru versus Meiomika tend to be in group formats, and yeah they’re a big upset but don’t tend to matter . Sjow beating Life has to be up there, but Sjow was a pro player RTK beating GuMiho is on a tier all its own.
This one I gotta check out!
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 24 2025 09:27 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 09:17 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:45 WombaT wrote:On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:On May 24 2025 08:38 seopthi wrote:
Is Rogue out? He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral. If Cosmiccow beat Serral, biggest upset in SC2 history? The real big upsets, your Maru versus Meiomika tend to be in group formats, and yeah they’re a big upset but don’t tend to matter . Sjow beating Life has to be up there, but Sjow was a pro player Yeah, it probably would have been. But alas, Serral already 2:0'ed the Cosmiccow without it having been covered on any of the streams. I'm mostly amused by the name. It was a close 2-0, I'm sure. Cosmiccow will destroy Serral when they meet in losers' finals.
CosmicCow and FightingFrog should start a team together
|
On May 24 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:
Who the fuck is Dolan and how did they take a game off herO?
I am loving a tourney where non-pros are duking it out with the big boys and gals, real throwback vibes
Probably some scv push shit that most Terran are doing these days.
Harstem got 2-0 by some random Terran pushing the boys
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 24 2025 11:11 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:
Who the fuck is Dolan and how did they take a game off herO?
I am loving a tourney where non-pros are duking it out with the big boys and gals, real throwback vibes Probably some scv push shit that most Terran are doing these days. Harstem got 2-0 by some random Terran pushing the boys
At this time I’m starting to doubt if we’ll ever see the #YearOfHarstem
|
On May 24 2025 08:42 Antithesis wrote:He lost to Mana and dropped to the lower bracket. More importantly, Cosmiccow won and will now face Serral.
I joked that it is the Year of MaNa before, but he is seriously looking better than atleast in the last five years. Super happy, hope he can make a deeper run, though of course the really big challenges in the Bracket are still ahead.
|
First day of games were a lot of fun. Love we get another season of these!
|
|
|
why is clem posing in the U tube image ?
|
Am I oblivious or was this not advertised well? I am literally finding out about this now and I watch either sc2 or broodwar most days of the week.
|
On May 24 2025 19:58 flashymarine wrote:
Am I oblivious or was this not advertised well? I am literally finding out about this now and I watch either sc2 or broodwar most days of the week.
It s the dead part of SC2
|
On May 24 2025 18:18 Vision_ wrote:
why is clem posing in the U tube image ?
because they did not have a pic of yo mama -.- <3
|
On May 24 2025 19:58 flashymarine wrote:
Am I oblivious or was this not advertised well? I am literally finding out about this now and I watch either sc2 or broodwar most days of the week.
If youve been on TL or reddit the last month you should have seen it.
Sure, there havent been a massive campaign for it but it has been written about
|
On May 24 2025 19:58 flashymarine wrote:
Am I oblivious or was this not advertised well? I am literally finding out about this now and I watch either sc2 or broodwar most days of the week.
It was a last minute announcement
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 24 2025 22:22 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 19:58 flashymarine wrote:
Am I oblivious or was this not advertised well? I am literally finding out about this now and I watch either sc2 or broodwar most days of the week. It was a last minute announcement
Players were announced late, but Dallas as a major event has been known since mid April. Curious how casual fans learn about events and register them in their minds as something they should keep an eye out for.
|
On May 24 2025 22:26 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 22:22 Die4Ever wrote:On May 24 2025 19:58 flashymarine wrote:
Am I oblivious or was this not advertised well? I am literally finding out about this now and I watch either sc2 or broodwar most days of the week. It was a last minute announcement Players were announced late, but Dallas as a major event has been known since mid April. Curious how casual fans learn about events and register them in their minds as something they should keep an eye out for.
April was only a month ago lol I consider that to be last minute when people need to ask for time off work, buy plane tickets, reserve hotel. For just watching at home it's not such a big deal but it means some people will miss it if they don't check TL often.
Most casual fans are clueless, Gamesdonequick has people every event saying they didn't know it was going to be on. And they announce like 6 months in advance and advertise on their social medias so IDK how people miss that.
Either way this was certainly last minute compared to typical announcements.
|
I knew about it from TLO's Instagram, he posted about it yesterday.
|
Gotta stay locked to Liquipedia, gents! Upcoming tourneys! =D
GSL Season 2, Bellum Gens Hungary, HomeStory 27...
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
my old man energy wants Mana to keep his run alive, but it's probably best for the tourney if Reynor takes this
|
On May 24 2025 18:18 Vision_ wrote:
why is clem posing in the U tube image ?
At first I thought that they put him there because DH is part of the EWC tour, which Clem won last year.. but then they put Maru on the Day 2 image... so no idea.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
goddamn it we got Mana trying to cannon rush Reynor while Reynor tries to proxy hatch Mana and the bloody stream dies?
|
On May 25 2025 00:20 Asha wrote:
goddamn it we got Mana trying to cannon rush Reynor while Reynor tries to proxy hatch Mana and the bloody stream dies?
yes Mana seems to be all in
|
I wish they had free WiFi in here
|
Certainly bad timing - looks like stream is back though
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Heromarine vs Hero on crankyducklings
Maru vs Creator on steadfast
|
|
|
On May 25 2025 00:41 Vision_ wrote:
Maru offline, hype
Meh, there's like 10 sick games ongoing at the same time. Clem is the defending EWC champ... watching his game makes sense. Maru finished 6th.
|
Didnt have Showtime 2-0ing cure on my list hopefully the Games will be somewhere Later.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Reynor v Hero on main stream
Gumi vs Solar on Cranky
Classic vs Byun on Steadfast
Skytoss giving me a bit of a headache lol
|
The Koreans are jetlagged AND hungover. Heh. 
|
|
|
Man how can reynor 3-0 herO i was told protoss is so overpowered noone except serral can win a pvz
|
On May 25 2025 02:30 darklycid wrote:Man how can reynor 3-0 herO i was told protoss is so overpowered noone except serral can win a pvz
The best Zerg players are outliers and shouldn't count for balance discussion while the best Protoss players are frauds that abuse imbalance /s
|
Reynor looking strong. Wow, I wasn't expecting that! He looks so much sharper than in the GSL!
|
Also, there's no stage? No interviews or anything? This seemed like a great chance for an interview.
|
On May 25 2025 02:35 Acrofales wrote:
Also, there's no stage? No interviews or anything? This seemed like a great chance for an interview.
There is a stage, but I don't think there's a host on-site, no camera man either
|
Maru making quick work of Showtime the first 2 maps
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Very impressive 2-0 from Lambo over sOs
|
Marus tvp lookig very impressive, just effortless winning with his tank pushs.
|
On May 25 2025 03:15 darklycid wrote:
Marus tvp lookig very impressive, just effortless winning with his tank pushs.
Meh, let's see him do that against Classic or herO. I don't think Maru looked that strong there, rather showtime just looked completely outmatched, which he always has been against Maru...
|
It was said in some tournament preview in the last years that ShowTime very consistently and reliably beats everyone lower ranked than him but virtually never brings down any of the big dogs. No indication that this will change.
|
On May 25 2025 03:18 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 03:15 darklycid wrote:
Marus tvp lookig very impressive, just effortless winning with his tank pushs. Meh, let's see him do that against Classic or herO. I don't think Maru looked that strong there, rather showtime just looked completely outmatched, which he always has been against Maru...
I mean he also just rolled over creator similary and showtime just 2:0'd cure but in general yea i wanna see that too.
|
On May 25 2025 03:18 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 03:15 darklycid wrote:
Marus tvp lookig very impressive, just effortless winning with his tank pushs. Meh, let's see him do that against Classic or herO. I don't think Maru looked that strong there, rather showtime just looked completely outmatched, which he always has been against Marj...
Except Showtime just 2-0 Cure in complete dominant fashion yesterday, what Maru did wasnt complicated, but his setup and control was very good. But it also has to do with Showtime choose to go Charge into Colossi which is terribly weak against Tank push.
|
|
|
Nice Serral managed to turn it around
|
Serral vs Solar game 5 was hilarious, Solar out-mind-gamed Serral, had the game basically won (+1 missiles, completed lair vs hatch tech and equal drones/army), then Solar went for another mind game with a spire leading to him throwing horribly.
|
Trigger 2-0 Gumiho, lets see if he can take out Solar aswell
|
On May 25 2025 03:54 Kreuger wrote:
Trigger 2-0 Gumiho, lets see if he can take out Solar aswell
Would be pretty big on home turf.
|
|
|
On May 25 2025 03:18 Antithesis wrote:
It was said in some tournament preview in the last years that ShowTime very consistently and reliably beats everyone lower ranked than him but virtually never brings down any of the big dogs. No indication that this will change.
His style just isn’t suited to win tournaments. Showtime is standard macro every game
|
Also good to see the EU trinity advancing no problem
|
|
|
A: Cure out???!!! sad to see the last place is between Tobias, Shin and Creator 
B: Reynor 3-0 hero!!!! wtf!!!!!! how was the series?
C: ByuN out T_T Mana vs Rogue rematch!!!!!
D: Serral vs Solar 3-2.. seems like a cool series. Trigger 2-0 gumi?! lets gooooooooo!!!!
|
herO games are just fun to watch.
|
30 minute break and then the Ro8 begins with Classic vs Clem, which we already saw in the group stage a few hours ago. This is advanced bracketing.
|
On May 25 2025 06:43 Elentos wrote:
30 minute break and then the Ro8 begins with Classic vs Clem, which we already saw in the group stage a few hours ago. This is advanced bracketing.
How... that's just dumb. I assume it's a mistake? I don't see it on liquipedia, so hopefully the stream's just wrong 
|
On May 25 2025 06:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 06:43 Elentos wrote:
30 minute break and then the Ro8 begins with Classic vs Clem, which we already saw in the group stage a few hours ago. This is advanced bracketing. How... that's just dumb. I assume it's a mistake? I don't see it on wikipedia or on the stream, so hopefully you're just wrong
That's what they show as the next series on the main stream. Classic vs Clem and then TBD vs Reynor.
|
On May 25 2025 06:43 Elentos wrote:
30 minute break and then the Ro8 begins with Classic vs Clem, which we already saw in the group stage a few hours ago. This is advanced bracketing.
I think that's just a mistake, Ro8 supposed to be played tomorrow?
|
On May 25 2025 06:46 bela.mervado wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 06:43 Elentos wrote:
30 minute break and then the Ro8 begins with Classic vs Clem, which we already saw in the group stage a few hours ago. This is advanced bracketing. I think that's just a mistake, Ro8 supposed to be played tomorrow?
ZG said there's two Ro8 matches today and the main stream shows two more matches.
|
We might need to nerf zerg again 
|
On May 25 2025 06:49 darklycid wrote:We might need to nerf zerg again
I'm on board, Zerg doesn't need to win any more big tournaments before the end of SC2
|
On May 25 2025 06:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 06:44 Acrofales wrote:On May 25 2025 06:43 Elentos wrote:
30 minute break and then the Ro8 begins with Classic vs Clem, which we already saw in the group stage a few hours ago. This is advanced bracketing. How... that's just dumb. I assume it's a mistake? I don't see it on wikipedia or on the stream, so hopefully you're just wrong That's what they show as the next series on the main stream. Classic vs Clem and then TBD vs Reynor.
It was apparently a mistake. It will be a different match.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Massive lower bracket run from Shin. Haven't felt he was in the same form this year as he was last - at least online - but he's had a very impressive performance after his immediate stumble.
|
On May 25 2025 06:51 Elentos wrote:I'm on board, Zerg doesn't need to win any more big tournaments before the end of SC2
I mean zerg is supposedly in a completely unplayable state and here we have 4 spots of the ro8 going to them souns like more nerfs are warranted (really funny reading all that in hindsight because of online cups where zergs almost never participate much in).
|
On May 25 2025 06:54 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 06:51 Elentos wrote:On May 25 2025 06:49 darklycid wrote:We might need to nerf zerg again I'm on board, Zerg doesn't need to win any more big tournaments before the end of SC2 I mean zerg is supposedly in a completely unplayable state and here we have 4 spots of the ro8 going to them souns like more nerfs are warranted (really funny reading all that in hindsight because of online cups where zergs almost never participate much in).
Measures have already been taken against the Zerg oppressors since it looks like we're getting Shin vs Clem and Solar vs Reynor now with the updated main stream.
|
On May 25 2025 07:01 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 06:54 darklycid wrote:On May 25 2025 06:51 Elentos wrote:On May 25 2025 06:49 darklycid wrote:We might need to nerf zerg again I'm on board, Zerg doesn't need to win any more big tournaments before the end of SC2 I mean zerg is supposedly in a completely unplayable state and here we have 4 spots of the ro8 going to them souns like more nerfs are warranted (really funny reading all that in hindsight because of online cups where zergs almost never participate much in). Measures have already been taken against the Zerg oppressors since it looks like we're getting Shin vs Clem and Solar vs Reynor now with the updated main stream.
Excellent.
|
On May 25 2025 07:01 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 06:54 darklycid wrote:On May 25 2025 06:51 Elentos wrote:On May 25 2025 06:49 darklycid wrote:We might need to nerf zerg again I'm on board, Zerg doesn't need to win any more big tournaments before the end of SC2 I mean zerg is supposedly in a completely unplayable state and here we have 4 spots of the ro8 going to them souns like more nerfs are warranted (really funny reading all that in hindsight because of online cups where zergs almost never participate much in). Measures have already been taken against the Zerg oppressors since it looks like we're getting Shin vs Clem and Solar vs Reynor now with the updated main stream.
That means tomorrow there's Serral vs Classic/Hero and Maru vs the other one, right? So.. probably no protoss in the Ro4
|
As long as we don't get Serral ZvZ I will be happy. Such a snoozefest when he could be vsing so many other cool players.
|
On May 25 2025 07:04 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 07:01 Elentos wrote:On May 25 2025 06:54 darklycid wrote:On May 25 2025 06:51 Elentos wrote:On May 25 2025 06:49 darklycid wrote:We might need to nerf zerg again I'm on board, Zerg doesn't need to win any more big tournaments before the end of SC2 I mean zerg is supposedly in a completely unplayable state and here we have 4 spots of the ro8 going to them souns like more nerfs are warranted (really funny reading all that in hindsight because of online cups where zergs almost never participate much in). Measures have already been taken against the Zerg oppressors since it looks like we're getting Shin vs Clem and Solar vs Reynor now with the updated main stream. That means tomorrow there's Serral vs Classic/Hero and Maru vs the other one, right? So.. probably no protoss in the Ro4
I mean all Protoss hope kind of rests on herO anyway, Classic isn't beating Clem. If herO gets his act together I would expect him to beat Maru, he's been looking a bit off so far this weekend but I'd still say he's the favorite there.
So for maximum anti-Protoss cruelty, Serral vs herO Ro8.
|
Solar absolutely threw vs Serral idk if anyone here saw the final game but solar had equal economy, equal army, but was up massively in tech had lair finished and +1 before Serral even started his. If he just carried out a normal game he would have been playing from an advantage but he decided to go into mutas and lost because of it.
|
United States33388 Posts
oh lol I misread the schedule; they're playing two quarterfinals randomly on Day 2?
|
On May 25 2025 07:12 CicadaSC wrote:
Solar absolutely threw vs Serral idk if anyone here saw the final game but solar had equal economy, equal army, but was up massively in tech had lair finished and +1 before Serral even started his. If he just carried out a normal game he would have been playing from an advantage but he decided to go into mutas and lost because of it.
But Serral is known to falter vs Muta switches so maybe that was the thought
|
Okay we're sacrificing Classic to Serral.
It feels like it's entirely up to Reynor if the final is Clem vs Serral or not.
|
On May 25 2025 07:15 Elentos wrote:
Okay we're sacrificing Classic to Serral.
It feels like it's entirely up to Reynor if the final is Clem vs Serral or not.
I wouldn't write off herO entirely, he nearly beat Serral in EWC 2024 and went 1-1 with Serral in the off-season. herO hasn't been playing great this tournament, but Serral probably "only" has 80-20 odds against herO.
Maru and Classic though...
|
On May 25 2025 07:20 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 07:15 Elentos wrote:
Okay we're sacrificing Classic to Serral.
It feels like it's entirely up to Reynor if the final is Clem vs Serral or not. I wouldn't write off herO entirely, he nearly beat Serral in EWC 2024 and went 1-1 with Serral in the off-season. herO hasn't been playing great this tournament, but Serral probably "only" has 80-20 odds against herO. Maru and Classic though...
I wouldn't normally write herO off, but he's looked shaky against Rogue and outright terrible against Reynor, and I expect Serral to be an even bigger challenge.
|
Match ups are:
Clem vs SHIN
Reynor vs Solar
—
Maru vs herO
Serral vs Classic
|
on which stream was Serral vs. Solar played? According to liquipedia the last 2 matches of the series were streamed. I'd love to see them.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
What an absolutely wicked build from Shin!
|
wow, that was brutal. so many great fungals and clem did not adapt at all.
|
Very cool first game by Shin.
On May 25 2025 07:42 Beta2k wrote:
on which stream was Serral vs. Solar played? According to liquipedia the last 2 matches of the series were streamed. I'd love to see them.
It was covered by Steadfast.
|
On May 25 2025 07:48 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 07:42 Beta2k wrote:
on which stream was Serral vs. Solar played? According to liquipedia the last 2 matches of the series were streamed. I'd love to see them. It was covered by Steadfast.
Thanks!
EDIT: He allows vods only for subscribers
|
|
|
Man, two fire builds by Shin in a row, are we going to see the upset?
|
Clem is currently living the life of a foreigner ca. 2015, getting farmed by the n-th best Korean at a Dreamhack somewhere in the world.
Very strange series, but this might be the most interesting thing that'll happen in the playoffs.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Man this series is really what I have always loved about pro starcraft.
Just someone cooking with some really different strat ideas to put a massive favourite on the back foot.
|
If Shin takes out Clem, Serrals chances of winning this go up to 80%
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 25 2025 07:55 Elentos wrote:
Clem is currently living the life of a foreigner ca. 2015, getting farmed by the n-th best Korean at a Dreamhack somewhere in the world.
Very strange series, but this might be the most interesting thing that'll happen in the playoffs.
SHIN has a surprisingly good match-up vs Clem historically (it's only like 33:66 for Clem)—he gets more 'random' wins against him with aggression than you'd think given their reputations. Most notably a big 2-0 against him in Katowice 2024 groups :o
|
That fungal on top of the forgotten combat shields.
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 25 2025 07:52 Beta2k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 07:48 Antithesis wrote:On May 25 2025 07:42 Beta2k wrote:
on which stream was Serral vs. Solar played? According to liquipedia the last 2 matches of the series were streamed. I'd love to see them. It was covered by Steadfast. Thanks! EDIT: He allows vods only for subscribers
There will prolly be a replay pack for the tournament? Otherwise you'll have to manual check all the non-English channels for their VODs  (most of them are just piggybacking the mainstream from what I can tell, tho)
|
This ledge at the mineral line is such an obnoxious piece of map design, haha. Very exciting and close game, though.
|
United States33388 Posts
Wish SHIN would make a single corruptor here :[
I think he forgot he has a Spire tho
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
That was some of the most obnoxious terrain abuse I've ever seen haha.
Feels like Shin just panicked too much as the game went crazy, shouldn't be that hard to stop the dropping and sieging
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
So many times on the replays it looked like Shin was just a couple of pixels away from chaining fungals. Feel like if he even got one of those followed up Clem just can't live.
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 25 2025 08:25 Asha wrote:
That was some of the most obnoxious terrain abuse I've ever seen haha.
Feels like Shin just panicked too much as the game went crazy, shouldn't be that hard to stop the dropping and sieging
Nah, while there's some panic, that's mostly Clem being way faster than him.
It really killed him to not build a SINGLE Corruptor tho -_-
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 25 2025 07:55 Asha wrote:
Man this series is really what I have always loved about pro starcraft.
Just someone cooking with some really different strat ideas to put a massive favourite on the back foot.
Every time I think, hey it’s been x years, maybe the game’s getting predictable, maybe I’ve seen it all you get a game like that.
Feels good man!
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On May 25 2025 08:28 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 08:25 Asha wrote:
That was some of the most obnoxious terrain abuse I've ever seen haha.
Feels like Shin just panicked too much as the game went crazy, shouldn't be that hard to stop the dropping and sieging Nah, while there's some panic, that's mostly Clem being way faster than him. It really killed him to not build a SINGLE Corruptor tho -_-
That's what I mean, just a few tech adaptations like adding a few corrupters that he was set up for would have shut it all down but he got swept up in the chaos and the feeling that the win was right there and he just didn't follow through.
|
On May 25 2025 08:02 Harris1st wrote:
If Shin takes out Clem, Serrals chances of winning this go up to 80%
Serral still has to go through his bracket top Korean bracket fiirst.
herO has a good chance to beat. But I’m hoping for Maru vs Serral cause I need my annually Serral stomping Maru
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 25 2025 08:28 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 08:25 Asha wrote:
That was some of the most obnoxious terrain abuse I've ever seen haha.
Feels like Shin just panicked too much as the game went crazy, shouldn't be that hard to stop the dropping and sieging Nah, while there's some panic, that's mostly Clem being way faster than him. It really killed him to not build a SINGLE Corruptor tho -_-
Some corruptors would have been lovely, but I guess it was so chaotic that SHIN maybe felt he couldn’t squeeze them out? Or, if he did have them in the right place
It felt like SHIN did have a window, before it went real low eco, but he maybe felt he could just close it out. Then when it went crazy I guess Infestors and whatnot are better bang for your buck
|
RagnaGOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
What an unbelievably brilliant series from Shin
|
Wowwwwww. Congrats to Shin. Not what I expected! That infestor play was excellent.
|
Hahaha, oh man, Clem going through the emotions on camera.
What a sweet series by Shin! Very cool unit compositions and strategies.
|
Grats to Shin being only the third player to qualify for EWC. Also kinda funny that Zerg have been complaining during the off-season about being the weakest race at the moment and at the first important event they have 3 out of the top 4 (assuming Serral beats Classic).
|
Okay, now I hope Shin wins the whole tournament. Still probably unlikely, but I think he can beat anyone remaining except for maybe Maru (Maru turtle style is a different beast even if Clem TvZ is better overall.)
|
Good series by Shin.
Shin & dark randomness style works really well against Clem
|
United States33388 Posts
Pretty fun series!
Hindsight is 20/20, but the result DOES track with some of Clem's map/series losses to Solar and Rogue in recent months, where Zergs overpower him with Hive-macro as long as they can survive the mid/early-game in decent shape.
|
Damn. Sad to see Clem go. Well played by SHIN. Clem's emotions are crazy to watch, such an animated player.
|
I'm rooting for Reynor, but if Solar wins, we'll have a revival of Serral vs. Korea.
|
what a close series! grats Solar 
|
What a nailbiter. Happy for Solar and sad for Reynor. Now it's just Serral vs. the Koreans.
|
United States33388 Posts
Really a toss-up between those two. They went 3-3 in GSL and 3-2 again here.
|
A lot of EU pros are probably upset that Reynor lost and will now probably take one of the two spots in the EU qualifier!
Although if people qualify multiple times how are spots being distributed? If herO wins tomorrow will extra spots be added to the global qualifier, or would there be some form of tie-breaker? Either way there will probably be some pretty funny qualification situations down the line, wouldn't be surprised if top 4 at BGE are all already qualified for EWC, and top 4 from GSL season 2 are also all already qualified too.
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 25 2025 10:19 dysenterymd wrote:
A lot of EU pros are probably upset that Reynor lost and will now probably take one of the two spots in the EU qualifier!
Although if people qualify multiple times how are spots being distributed? If herO wins tomorrow will extra spots be added to the global qualifier, or would there be some form of tie-breaker? Either way there will probably be some pretty funny qualification situations down the line, wouldn't be surprised if top 4 at BGE are all already qualified for EWC, and top 4 from GSL season 2 are also all already qualified too.
The natural thing to do would be to rollover extra spots to the Global Online Qualifier, which is almost surely going to be scheduled last (it's currently TBD). If it's not spelled out in the rulebook already, I would very much assume this is what they're gonna do.
|
On May 25 2025 08:51 JJH777 wrote:
Grats to Shin being only the third player to qualify for EWC. Also kinda funny that Zerg have been complaining during the off-season about being the weakest race at the moment and at the first important event they have 3 out of the top 4 (assuming Serral beats Classic).
Cause Zerg players are better than everyone. Only Clem and herO are top tier at the moment
|
I saw showtimes tweet after he lost, "man I'm going to have to make it through the EU qualifiers next week." And it was already looking tough but now u get Clem and Reynor thrown in there as well and it's gotta feelsbadman.
Some surprising results I never would have predicted Shin winning. And Solar, you can see how much the win meant to him. Great stories all around with twists and turns what an amazing tournament so far. And Serral has a very exciting bracket himself if he manages to make it through on the other side so many amazing games.
10/10 tournament so far.
(If only we had Tastosis it would be an 11)
Also, I think light _vip is an amazing caster and has been doing B stream for years I would LOVE if he got a premier spot casting on the main stream for one of these events.
|
On May 25 2025 11:00 CicadaSC wrote:
I saw showtimes tweet after he lost, "man I'm going to have to make it through the EU qualifiers next week." And it was already looking tough but now u get Clem and Reynor thrown in there as well and it's gotta feelsbadman.
Some surprising results I never would have predicted Shin winning. And Solar, you can see how much the win meant to him. Great stories all around with twists and turns what an amazing tournament so far. And Serral has a very exciting bracket himself if he manages to make it through on the other side so many amazing games.
10/10 tournament so far.
(If only we had Tastosis it would be an 11)
Also, I think light _vip is an amazing caster and has been doing B stream for years I would LOVE if he got a premier spot casting on the main stream for one of these events.
Clem is already qualified, is it still open for him?
|
Sick bracket to finish up everything.
|
On May 25 2025 11:14 Agh wrote:
Sick bracket to finish up everything.
Yeah! Some very elite StarCraft tee'd up for Championship Sunday!
|
On May 25 2025 11:12 Lockdown- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 11:00 CicadaSC wrote:
I saw showtimes tweet after he lost, "man I'm going to have to make it through the EU qualifiers next week." And it was already looking tough but now u get Clem and Reynor thrown in there as well and it's gotta feelsbadman.
Some surprising results I never would have predicted Shin winning. And Solar, you can see how much the win meant to him. Great stories all around with twists and turns what an amazing tournament so far. And Serral has a very exciting bracket himself if he manages to make it through on the other side so many amazing games.
10/10 tournament so far.
(If only we had Tastosis it would be an 11)
Also, I think light _vip is an amazing caster and has been doing B stream for years I would LOVE if he got a premier spot casting on the main stream for one of these events. Clem is already qualified, is it still open for him?
I don't see why he would play given he is already qualified. There is no prize money.
|
On May 25 2025 11:12 Lockdown- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 11:00 CicadaSC wrote:
I saw showtimes tweet after he lost, "man I'm going to have to make it through the EU qualifiers next week." And it was already looking tough but now u get Clem and Reynor thrown in there as well and it's gotta feelsbadman.
Some surprising results I never would have predicted Shin winning. And Solar, you can see how much the win meant to him. Great stories all around with twists and turns what an amazing tournament so far. And Serral has a very exciting bracket himself if he manages to make it through on the other side so many amazing games.
10/10 tournament so far.
(If only we had Tastosis it would be an 11)
Also, I think light _vip is an amazing caster and has been doing B stream for years I would LOVE if he got a premier spot casting on the main stream for one of these events. Clem is already qualified, is it still open for him?
MY mistake, forgot he was already qualified.
|
Wow, Clem getting kicked out so early is sad, although I am happy for Shin... especially after Game 3.
After Clem's and Reynor's losses it sure feels like Serral's career went full circle and after seven years we are back to 2018: Serral versus the Korean Elite :D
|
Solar went 2-3 against Serral where he had a good lead in game 5, back to 3-2 Trigger and Reynor, such a rollercoaster he must have been on, against the entire Basilisk team too.
|
Solar’s ZvZ games have been fun thus far. Would be cool to see Solar vs. Serral rematch. Rogue vs. Mana series was fun too.
|
On May 25 2025 16:20 tigera6 wrote:
Solar went 2-3 against Serral where he had a good lead in game 5, back to 3-2 Trigger and Reynor, such a rollercoaster he must have been on, against the entire Basilisk team too.
Yeah... seeing how Serral and Reynor advanced, it would have been nice to see Trigger in the Ro8 as well. Although Solar really earned his spot too.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Man Solar living right on the edge! No surprise about his reaction to getting past Reynor he must have been wired in that game 5.
|
Wut - they had two quarters yesterday? Had no clue!
Oh well, not missing out on championship sunday at least! Go HerO!
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 25 2025 10:26 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 10:19 dysenterymd wrote:
A lot of EU pros are probably upset that Reynor lost and will now probably take one of the two spots in the EU qualifier!
Although if people qualify multiple times how are spots being distributed? If herO wins tomorrow will extra spots be added to the global qualifier, or would there be some form of tie-breaker? Either way there will probably be some pretty funny qualification situations down the line, wouldn't be surprised if top 4 at BGE are all already qualified for EWC, and top 4 from GSL season 2 are also all already qualified too. The natural thing to do would be to rollover extra spots to the Global Online Qualifier, which is almost surely going to be scheduled last (it's currently TBD). If it's not spelled out in the rulebook already, I would very much assume this is what they're gonna do.
Okay, so I've been told that there will be tiebreakers at Dallas to take care of overlap seeds? More games is good, I guess!
|
Tiebreakers seems to be scheduled right before the grandfinals, though it will only happen if herO advances over Maru. Reynor is definitely rooting hard for herO to beat Maru lol.
|
Clem being out so early makes it better because there is no clear favorite. With another top Zerg in the final it's hard to say it's going to be easy for Serral.
|
On May 25 2025 20:47 ekojs wrote:
Tiebreakers seems to be scheduled right before the grandfinals, though it will only happen if herO advances over Maru. Reynor is definitely rooting hard for herO to beat Maru lol.
Tie breaker for the spot to EWC? So if herO win, then 3 guys who lose the Ro8 other than Clem will play a Round Robin?
|
On May 25 2025 16:20 tigera6 wrote:
Solar went 2-3 against Serral where he had a good lead in game 5, back to 3-2 Trigger and Reynor, such a rollercoaster he must have been on, against the entire Basilisk team too.
Solar was emotional after beating Reynor. You rarely see that kind of excitement out of solar. Very happy with the guy.
|
I could've sworn it said Road to EWC was coming up in 45 minutes an hour ago... and now it's 45 minutes again. Was the start pushed back an hour?
|
On May 25 2025 23:14 Acrofales wrote:
I could've sworn it said Road to EWC was coming up in 45 minutes an hour ago... and now it's 45 minutes again. Was the start pushed back an hour?
I think the schedule was just wrong. The Youtube stream was also scheduled for 15:00 CEST and has just been in purgatory for the last hour and 15 minutes because the time was wrong.
|
|
|
Losing the first game like that has to feel terrible for herO
|
God throw from herO in g1. Yikes!
|
On May 25 2025 03:19 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 03:18 Acrofales wrote:On May 25 2025 03:15 darklycid wrote:
Marus tvp lookig very impressive, just effortless winning with his tank pushs. Meh, let's see him do that against Classic or herO. I don't think Maru looked that strong there, rather showtime just looked completely outmatched, which he always has been against Maru... I mean he also just rolled over creator similary and showtime just 2:0'd cure but in general yea i wanna see that too.
Well, guess he just showed it vs herO as well
|
I don't know what herO was thinking there. He very obviously put Maru all-in and then went double forge and delayed his splash damage.
|
What a frustrating throw by herO. Putting Maru in a situation where he could not but 2-base all-in and then taking a greedy 4th nexus.
The real question is though, how many more 2-base boy pull all-ins will we see in this series?
|
United States33388 Posts
Funny, was just watching TY vs Neeb 
|
Maru still just rolling over protosses :D
|
herO is actually just not looking good this tournament.
|
United States33388 Posts
Now that Has is gone, bad herO games are the funniest thing in StarCraft
|
On May 26 2025 00:26 Waxangel wrote:
Now that Has is gone, bad herO games are the funniest thing in StarCraft
|
I haven't seen an SCV pull that disjointed outside of my own games before.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
I quite like ZGs casting but her insistence on absolute statements about who has won a game when there's still major engagements left to actually take drives me a bit insane lol.
Much better judged game from herO finally - not so recklessly greedy.
Wonder if Maru mixes in any cheese or whether it is just all the 2 base tank variants he's been relying on
|
On May 26 2025 00:38 Asha wrote:
I quite like ZGs casting but her insistence on absolute statements about who has won a game when there's still major engagements left to actually take drives me a bit insane lol.
Shades of the HSC casting couch where progamers like to call games over if someone loses 1 extra worker.
Okay this time he added a thousand gates instead of a 4th base.
|
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday.
|
Nope, apparently Terran cant play any long macro against top Protoss these days outside of Clem (as Terran).
|
On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all?
1-base all-ins!
|
On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all?
Clem is pretty much the only Terran who likes building a 3rd CC vs Toss right now (Spirit might? I haven't seen any of his games recently.)
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all?
Yes he also does a one base proxy!
But 2 base is the best strategy and Maru has health issues so I'm not surprised.
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday.
At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless.
|
On May 26 2025 00:49 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Clem is pretty much the only Terran who likes building a 3rd CC vs Toss right now (Spirit might? I haven't seen any of his games recently.)
Byun basically always plays straight up and it's hurting him against to Protoss players.
|
On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday.
Yes, 1-base all-ins
|
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense.
|
That must've been the dumbest Maru vs herO match ever lol
|
On May 26 2025 00:53 Elentos wrote:
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense.
Its about the control, Marauder was just better than Stalker too much, wonder if Adept is the better choice.
On May 26 2025 00:54 Die4Ever wrote:
That must've been the dumbest Maru vs herO match ever lol
Get used to it until the next balance patch
|
On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless.
why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge
|
Starting to get frustrating watching this sort of thing for the last month X__X
Or the last 15 years if I'm being honest. LOL.
|
On May 26 2025 00:54 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:53 Elentos wrote:
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense. Its about the control, Marauder was just better than Stalker too much, wonder if Adept is the better choice.
Adepts take 500 years to kill marauders.
|
On May 26 2025 00:55 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:54 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:53 Elentos wrote:
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense. Its about the control, Marauder was just better than Stalker too much, wonder if Adept is the better choice. Adepts take 500 years to kill marauders.
Also taking Marauder forever to kill Adept with Shield Battery, buying time for more warp-in.
|
Serral's chance of winning the tournament has gone up to 99% now I guess.
|
On May 26 2025 00:53 Elentos wrote:
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense.
Nah just a weak response from hero. He build a nexus even though he scout it was a proxy build. Never understand why Toss don’t just build a void ray to counter this build. Instead they insist on weak stalkers to hold. Especially when shield battery isn’t what it use to be
It’s not like hero didn’t have time, he had lots of time for 2 voids days to pop.
|
On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge
My conspiracy is that the players are getting old and bored and worse at the game for the first time in SC2 history so we're regressing back towards this. Both players played pretty mediocre thru all 5 games tbh. There's a lack of energy and patience to play a macro game (thru multiple boX series)...
|
On May 26 2025 00:56 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:55 Elentos wrote:On May 26 2025 00:54 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:53 Elentos wrote:
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense. Its about the control, Marauder was just better than Stalker too much, wonder if Adept is the better choice. Adepts take 500 years to kill marauders. Also taking Marauder forever to kill Adept with Shield Battery, buying time for more warp-in.
they can just get kited and never get a hit of, no? Marauders have higher range
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On May 26 2025 00:56 Elentos wrote:
Serral's chance of winning the tournament has gone up to 99% now I guess.
Yeah, although I was really impressed with a lot of Classic's play lately and he definitely had some funky builds so I think there's a chance for something interesting here.
|
On May 26 2025 00:56 Elentos wrote:
Serral's chance of winning the tournament has gone up to 99% now I guess.
I'd give Solar/Shin about 20%
|
Maru vs herO was a terrible, I'm glad it's over.
|
On May 26 2025 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:56 Elentos wrote:
Serral's chance of winning the tournament has gone up to 99% now I guess. I'd give Solar/Shin about 20%
I don't want to see Serral win but I also don't want the other side of the bracket to win so what you're proposing me here is just another lose-lose situation.
|
On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge
Exactly because there is no battery overcharge, that make defending the earlier push more difficult for Protoss. Playing a standard macro game is harder because Protoss can take control of the map easier with Hallucination Phoenix.
|
On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge
Late game is still fine for Terran, but Protoss have gotten really good at hanging out on the edge of the Terran's base and taking good trades with collosi/getting an oppressive amount of storm in the mid-game w energy recharge. Terran usually goes into the late game behind.
|
It's really mostly hallu giving protoss free reign over the midgame vs a straight Up terran as you can Just Scout everything and greed/Tech accordingly i think the all ins are Just Not too affected by that.
|
On May 26 2025 00:57 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge My conspiracy is that the players are getting old and bored and worse at the game for the first time in SC2 history so we're regressing back towards this. Both players played pretty mediocre thru all 5 games tbh. There's a lack of energy and patience to play a macro game (thru multiple boX series)...
Trust me, Protoss player has zero problem with playing a long macro game PvT where they can take 4-5 bases before Terran have their 3rd on location.
|
This game is properly stupid.
|
On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge
I think it also relates to why taking the hard and tedious route, when you have a more than reasonable chance of finishing the game early on, sort of as when some metas ago every protoss played skytoss because at the time it was much easier and more effective than anything else, not because the other options were altogether unviable.
|
On May 26 2025 00:57 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:56 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:55 Elentos wrote:On May 26 2025 00:54 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:53 Elentos wrote:
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense. Its about the control, Marauder was just better than Stalker too much, wonder if Adept is the better choice. Adepts take 500 years to kill marauders. Also taking Marauder forever to kill Adept with Shield Battery, buying time for more warp-in. they can just get kited and never get a hit of, no? Marauders have higher range
They dont need to chase Marauder, just making sure they dont get killed, deal with SCV and wait for more warp-in. Those Marauders where 1-shoting Stalker through Shield Battery. An Overcharge would shut that down immediately in the old patch.
|
On May 26 2025 01:07 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge I think it also relates to why taking the hard and tedious route, when you have a more than reasonable chance of finishing the game early on, sort of as when some metas ago every protoss played skytoss because at the time it was much easier and more effective than anything else, not because the other options were altogether unviable.
fair point, especially without overcharge some of these pushes seem brutal to hold
|
On May 26 2025 01:07 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:57 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 00:56 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:55 Elentos wrote:On May 26 2025 00:54 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:53 Elentos wrote:
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense. Its about the control, Marauder was just better than Stalker too much, wonder if Adept is the better choice. Adepts take 500 years to kill marauders. Also taking Marauder forever to kill Adept with Shield Battery, buying time for more warp-in. they can just get kited and never get a hit of, no? Marauders have higher range They dont need to chase Marauder, just making sure they dont get killed, deal with SCV and wait for more warp-in. Those Marauders where 1-shoting Stalker through Shield Battery. An Overcharge would shut that down immediately in the old patch.
If it wasn't stalkers Maru could have just killed the batteries first instead of the adepts. I don't think that buys nearly as much time as necessary.
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 26 2025 01:01 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge Exactly because there is no battery overcharge, that make defending the earlier push more difficult for Protoss. Playing a standard macro game is harder because Protoss can take control of the map easier with Hallucination Phoenix.
It's not that simple, because it's not like Protoss was getting destroyed by 'old' Queen walks and Marine-Tank timings immediately after the patch, which was what some people feared. It's more of a recent-ish meta development that Zerg are more all-in prone, and pro Terrans are extremely all-in heavy. I couldn't describe every single step toward getting here, but it's not as simple as 'all-ins > no shield overcharge.'
|
On May 26 2025 01:12 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 01:07 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:57 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 00:56 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:55 Elentos wrote:On May 26 2025 00:54 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:53 Elentos wrote:
herO had the right build order and scouted every step of the way and lost anyway, makes sense. Its about the control, Marauder was just better than Stalker too much, wonder if Adept is the better choice. Adepts take 500 years to kill marauders. Also taking Marauder forever to kill Adept with Shield Battery, buying time for more warp-in. they can just get kited and never get a hit of, no? Marauders have higher range They dont need to chase Marauder, just making sure they dont get killed, deal with SCV and wait for more warp-in. Those Marauders where 1-shoting Stalker through Shield Battery. An Overcharge would shut that down immediately in the old patch. If it wasn't stalkers Maru could have just killed the batteries first instead of the adepts. I don't think that buys nearly as much time as necessary.
Thats fine, as the Adepts can take out all the SCVs and Probe-pull to fight the Marauders, Stalker is just so bad against Marauder with Concussive imo.
On May 26 2025 01:15 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 01:01 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge Exactly because there is no battery overcharge, that make defending the earlier push more difficult for Protoss. Playing a standard macro game is harder because Protoss can take control of the map easier with Hallucination Phoenix. It's not that simple, because it's not like Protoss was getting destroyed by 'old' Queen walks and Marine-Tank timings immediately after the patch, which was what some people feared. It's more of a recent meta development that Zerg are more all-in prone, and pro Terrans are extremely all-in heavy. I couldn't describe every single step toward getting here, but it's not as simple as 'all-ins > no shield overcharge.'
I understand its not that clear-cut, but that probably tip the scale for several Terran players imo.
|
On May 26 2025 01:15 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 01:01 tigera6 wrote:On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge Exactly because there is no battery overcharge, that make defending the earlier push more difficult for Protoss. Playing a standard macro game is harder because Protoss can take control of the map easier with Hallucination Phoenix. It's not that simple, because it's not like Protoss was getting destroyed by 'old' Queen walks and Marine-Tank timings immediately after the patch, which was what some people feared. It's more of a recent meta development that Zerg are more all-in prone, and pro Terrans are extremely all-in heavy. I couldn't describe every single step toward getting here, but it's not as simple as 'all-ins > no shield overcharge.'
Ultimately all it comes down to is pros do what is more likely to win them games and macro games tend to go better for Protoss.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On May 26 2025 01:01 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 00:50 Waxangel wrote:On May 26 2025 00:47 Antithesis wrote:
Does Maru play anything other than 2-base all-ins in TvP at all? Good to see that herO is adapting, though, unlike ShowTime yesterday. At least for a lot of KR Terrans, they don't seem to believe macro is viable against top-tier players right now. But Maru just seems to 2-base everyone regardless. why is that though? I don't think the last patch changed TvP too much? sure Ghosts take more supply but Disruptors are also a bit worse and energy overcharge at least in PvT is I think worse than battery overcharge Late game is still fine for Terran, but Protoss have gotten really good at hanging out on the edge of the Terran's base and taking good trades with collosi/getting an oppressive amount of storm in the mid-game w energy recharge. Terran usually goes into the late game behind.
This is the simplest & probably best answer. Why play for a game state where you might be able to fight evenly but are precariously behind (very common to see T trying to take a third at the time P is going up to 5) and you're reliant on your execution equalising the game, when you can play from an equal state where your execution might win you the game?
Great to see Classic being properly competitive in this series
|
United States33388 Posts
Anyway, Maru winning with 2-Rax proxy in 2025 should be celebrated as a charming nostalgic throwback, not the topic of argument
|
Classic just isnt sharp enough to play a lategame PvZ, and against Serral of all opponents.
|
I see late game ZvP hasn't changed in the past year. Still as boring as ever.
|
United States33388 Posts
Damn, both sides taking the decorative gasless bases. Truly the map-maker's dream
|
France12875 Posts
Maru finishing as best terran in an international despite playing just « ok », that’s fun to see :D. TvP seems in a bad state though, even Cure lost
|
Man i Wish we could Just Nerf These kind of lategames Out of existence.
|
ZombieGrub confirming that she doesn't care about this game anymore. Black hole lmao.
|
Oof pvz is painful to watch.
|
United States33388 Posts
Looks like I have plenty of time; time to check the ESL rulebook and see under what conditions the refs can ask for a draw without the players prompting it first
|
On May 26 2025 02:09 Waxangel wrote:
Looks like I have plenty of time; time to check the ESL rulebook and see under what conditions the refs can ask for a draw without the players prompting it first
jinxed
And why the F Classic keep his Zealot around for? send them to each Serral base already
|
United States33388 Posts
okay nm this is the greatest game of all time
|
Amazing end for the game.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
|
What did I just watch. LMAO.
Hero archon...
|
That corrupter remax my god serral
|
On May 26 2025 01:48 tigera6 wrote:
Classic just isnt sharp enough to play a lategame PvZ, and against Serral of all opponents.
Ok
|
On May 26 2025 01:50 Waxangel wrote:Damn, both sides taking the decorative gasless bases. Truly the map-maker's dream
And they mattered!
|
On May 26 2025 02:17 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 01:48 tigera6 wrote:
Classic just isnt sharp enough to play a lategame PvZ, and against Serral of all opponents. Ok
I stand corrected :D, but Serral was ahead the whole time until he didnt realize he ran out of mineral to make lings.
|
United States33388 Posts
This was like the deluxe version of Neeb vs Rogue—50 minutes of boredom into one of the greatest match endings ever
|
This is probably one of the greatest matches ever.. the comebacks, the harassment, Classic being chipped down to mostly 3 bases for it all to come crashing in an epic fight and even more badass ending. Absolute insanity...
|
United States33388 Posts
Also, Serral owed the gods of bullshit a win after he stole that Stargazers game from ShoWTimE at TSL9. Law of equivalent exchange
|
Some Zergs add some Ultralisks to deal with templars and archons under the Protoss fleet. I wonder if that would work against Classic here.
|
United States33388 Posts
Oh god they're doing it again
|
Classic upgrade was shit and still completely dominated that fight was crazy
|
|
|
No one with a straight face can tell me classic deserves to win this game
|
United States33388 Posts
Can't tell if this game is kinda good, or it's just cognitive bias from the last game
|
On May 26 2025 03:01 Tsubbi wrote:
No one with a straight face can tell me classic deserves to win this game
why wouldn't he?
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On May 26 2025 03:02 Waxangel wrote:
Can't tell if this game is kinda good, or it's just cognitive bias from the last game
Much more back and forth than the last game at least
|
now a third 45 minute game?
|
Those 5 Immortal were completely useless, Classic had terrible upgrade as well.
|
When there's constant fighting like this I don't mind watching tempest late game. Probably the difference between a wide vs a narrow map.
|
Sooo, one more game like this?
|
I'm ready for cannon rush vs proxy hatch here lads
|
On May 26 2025 03:09 Gescom wrote:
I'm ready for cannon rush vs proxy hatch here lads
YES BOYS
|
On May 26 2025 03:12 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 03:09 Gescom wrote:
I'm ready for cannon rush vs proxy hatch here lads YES BOYS
NO BOYS
somehow they're gonna end up in a standard game after this
|
Serral leaving only one drone to kill the high ground pylon seconds before the cannon is finished was quite badass
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 26 2025 03:14 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 03:12 Gescom wrote:On May 26 2025 03:09 Gescom wrote:
I'm ready for cannon rush vs proxy hatch here lads YES BOYS NO BOYS somehow they're gonna end up in a standard game after this
somehow they're gonna end up in a 45 minute gamer after this
no I'm just trying to jinx it into not happening
|
Serral could kill Classic right now if he pushes, right?
|
for this series they should both be disqualified and an exciting player moved to the ro4
|
Serral could've just killed him with ling hydra bane and he should have
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Thats a baller recall into the main to be fair
|
United States33388 Posts
That was such a sick move. If he doesn't leverage it into a faster ending, Serral morally deserves the win
|
Classic annoying passive and yet still still not defending super well, but such is Classic.
Would love 1 void ray patrolling wiping ovies and map vision and creep....
|
At this rate, Vitality vs Mouz is going to start before this series is over.
|
How is Serral planning to clear that gold base?
|
Classic putting in all this effort only to have to defend 50 SCV pulls in the next round is truly inspiring.
|
Winning the match with kamikaze recall, nice.
|
Actually funny that serral is the one zerg losing the non mirror also RIP the EU qualifier.
|
France12875 Posts
Let’s go Classic!
Hopefully Maru can sneak out a win
|
Also all kr ro4 finally all is Well again.
|
Maru actually has a great shot at winning now, since he wins every series against Solar and Shin until the end of time and Classic can be all-ined.
|
United States33388 Posts
damn, time to ninja amend my preview article
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Its never going to be my favourite match up, but fair play classic he really hung tough
|
On May 26 2025 03:38 darklycid wrote:
Also all kr ro4 finally all is Well again.
This is how I remember my Dreamhacks.
|
Maru's chance of winning Dallas just went up exponentially lol
|
On May 26 2025 03:36 Elentos wrote:
Classic putting in all this effort only to have to defend 50 SCV pulls in the next round is truly inspiring.
LOL... I was thinking the same thing.
|
|
|
I'm betting on Solar winning
|
Wow, like most I did not give Classic much of any chance of winning this. Grats to him! That is an incredible result. Normally I would root for Maru no matter what but it'd be cool to see Classic win this tournament. Also, when is the last time there was an all KR top 4 in an international event that had all the top EU guys present? I can't recall any in the last 5-6 years. Maybe one of the TSLs?
|
Eu qualifiers gonna be a bloodbath
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
Can’t say my favourite meta, but man that was some high quality stuff. GGWP Classic
|
No herO, Serral, Clem in top4. When was last time this happened?
|
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic.
|
United States33388 Posts
Going off Master's Coliseum, PiG Sty, and other off-season games, I was inclined to think Serral was still favored against Protoss in the super-late game if he had time & money to put together his ideal final army. Not sure what to think after this series...
|
On May 26 2025 03:21 tigera6 wrote:
Serral could kill Classic right now if he pushes, right?
That’s the story of the series for me. A couple of the games when Serral defended a push and was up around 40-50 supply. He should have just counter attack and try to end it or put some pressure. Either he sits back and macro up which leads to these long games which costed him the series. Gave classic too much time to get his army up and slowly builds his lead
|
Teleports skytoss army into main.
Teleports back out.
Man **** this race Protoss lategame is such bull.
|
On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic.
Would that be a success if somehow Clem play Protoss in EWC Final and beat a Terran?
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On May 26 2025 03:36 Elentos wrote:
Classic putting in all this effort only to have to defend 50 SCV pulls in the next round is truly inspiring.
Classic absolutely clowned Bunny's efforts with very good gateaway play so i'm curious to see how he does vs Maru
|
Anyone winning would be pretty sick, although I'm hoping to avoid a Maru v Solar/Shin based on their prior match history.
|
On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic.
Protoss hardly playable PVT.
ZvP if only difficult when you are playing against someone is loves to sit back and macro (classic).
|
On May 26 2025 03:38 darklycid wrote:
Also all kr ro4 finally all is Well again.
When's the last time this happened in an international Premier Tournament? Valencia 2022?
|
On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic.
Well this looks like the same PvZ I've watched for the past 5 years.
|
On May 26 2025 03:47 Pandain wrote:
Anyone winning would be pretty sick, although I'm hoping to avoid a Maru v Solar/Shin based on their prior match history.
Shin vs Maru in the final would be devastating for him, his style of beating Clem would be useless against Maru who like to sit home and turtle for 40 minutes
|
On May 26 2025 03:48 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic. Well this looks like the same PvZ I've watched for the past 5 years.
The Outcome is different thats why its idiotic now
|
we've had pvz games like this since 2012 its not a new thing
|
On May 26 2025 03:46 Asha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 03:36 Elentos wrote:
Classic putting in all this effort only to have to defend 50 SCV pulls in the next round is truly inspiring. Classic absolutely clowned Bunny's efforts with very good gateaway play so i'm curious to see how he does vs Maru
Nothing against bunny but he is a tier below
Clem clowned on classic 3-0 earlier. I’m kinda expecting Maru to 3-0 classic as well but in scv pull style
|
On May 26 2025 03:50 Scarlett` wrote:
we've had pvz games like this since 2012 its not a new thing
Fwiw i do think they are Not really fun to watch either but what can you do.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On May 26 2025 03:50 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 03:46 Asha wrote:On May 26 2025 03:36 Elentos wrote:
Classic putting in all this effort only to have to defend 50 SCV pulls in the next round is truly inspiring. Classic absolutely clowned Bunny's efforts with very good gateaway play so i'm curious to see how he does vs Maru Nothing against bunny but he is a tier below Clem clowned on classic 3-0 earlier. I’m kinda expecting Maru to 3-0 classic as well but in scv pull style
No doubt, but Clem clowned Classic because Classic was trying to take double golds and play gateway heavy macro games and Clem is the only person in the world who can just crush TvP after 2 base.
It's definitely possible Maru wins but Classic seemed to have some really solid answers to 2 base stuff.
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 26 2025 03:44 kajtarp wrote:
No herO, Serral, Clem in top4. When was last time this happened?
Well, if you count tournaments where ALL THREE of them played at, that's actually a huge filter in itself (esp given the timing of herO's military & when Clem became 'relevant'), so I think it may have NEVER happened if you combine them all together (all three played + none placed top four).
If we're talking tournaments where at least TWO of them played then uhhh, two weeks ago
 WardiTV Mondays/35
|
Hope Classic takes this, he showed some wild games.
|
I almost wish we got a few terrain patches around the bases that were unbuildable like in BW. its kinda annoying to see protoss just spam 6-7 cannons with a battery and be pretty much safe from any harassment. You have to inch lurkers bit by bit and by then a tempest 2 minutes later can deal with it, banelings get deleted by a single high temp. Even if not balance wise, entertainment wise so we dont get the protoss ball of death camping out in a stalemate scenario.
|
Wow... Clem AND Serral out before the semis, the latter not being qualified for EWC yet. Showtime wasn't happy about Reynor not making Bo4, because of the European qualifier. Now Serral is in it too... things are gonne be wild.
Congrats to Classic for winning this insane match!
|
Haha this match can end up shorter than game 3 between Serral and Classic
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 26 2025 04:03 Husyelt wrote:
I almost wish we got a few terrain patches around the bases that were unbuildable like in BW. its kinda annoying to see protoss just spam 6-7 cannons with a battery and be pretty much safe from any harassment. You have to inch lurkers bit by bit and by then a tempest 2 minutes later can deal with it, banelings get deleted by a single high temp. Even if not balance wise, entertainment wise so we dont get the protoss ball of death camping out in a stalemate scenario.
wish we had the technology to just rotate between the worst metas every 2 weeks
my first request is that time when Zerg just went Hydra-Ling-Bane and had a good chance of ending the game or killing 30 probes by doing a basic two-prong attack
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
How many funky builds did Shin bank up for this tourney.
|
On May 26 2025 04:15 Asha wrote:
How many funky builds did Shin bank up for this tourney.
yes
|
On May 26 2025 04:11 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 04:03 Husyelt wrote:
I almost wish we got a few terrain patches around the bases that were unbuildable like in BW. its kinda annoying to see protoss just spam 6-7 cannons with a battery and be pretty much safe from any harassment. You have to inch lurkers bit by bit and by then a tempest 2 minutes later can deal with it, banelings get deleted by a single high temp. Even if not balance wise, entertainment wise so we dont get the protoss ball of death camping out in a stalemate scenario. wish we had the technology to just rotate between the worst metas every 2 weeks my first request is that time when Zerg just went Hydra-Ling-Bane and had a good chance of ending the game or killing 30 probes by doing a basic two-prong attack
Sounds Like shin vs Showtime to me.
|
On May 26 2025 03:48 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic. Well this looks like the same PvZ I've watched for the past 5 years.
The stalemate endgame has been a rare occurrence since the archon toilet and broodlord infestor both got nerfed about 2012 or so. Seeing 3/5 games go that way means things are changing back that way: the great book of protoss bullshit is no longer needed because they're happy going late game, which I do agree with you has always been unwatchable.
|
United States33388 Posts
On May 26 2025 04:28 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 03:48 Pandain wrote:On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic. Well this looks like the same PvZ I've watched for the past 5 years. The stalemate endgame has been a rare occurrence since the archon toilet and broodlord infestor both got nerfed about 2012 or so. Seeing 3/5 games go that way means things are changing back that way: the great book of protoss bullshit is no longer needed because they're happy going late game, which I do agree with you has always been unwatchable.
Some people who were really committed to it could still force it in 3/5th of their games, like certain Canadian Zergs in this thread
|
On May 26 2025 04:28 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 03:48 Pandain wrote:On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic. Well this looks like the same PvZ I've watched for the past 5 years. The stalemate endgame has been a rare occurrence since the archon toilet and broodlord infestor both got nerfed about 2012 or so. Seeing 3/5 games go that way means things are changing back that way: the great book of protoss bullshit is no longer needed because they're happy going late game, which I do agree with you has always been unwatchable.
Yeah PvZ lategame has always been like this but depending on how turtly the meta is you see it more or less often.
|
On May 26 2025 04:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 04:28 Acrofales wrote:On May 26 2025 03:48 Pandain wrote:On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic. Well this looks like the same PvZ I've watched for the past 5 years. The stalemate endgame has been a rare occurrence since the archon toilet and broodlord infestor both got nerfed about 2012 or so. Seeing 3/5 games go that way means things are changing back that way: the great book of protoss bullshit is no longer needed because they're happy going late game, which I do agree with you has always been unwatchable. Yeah PvZ lategame has always been like this but depending on how turtly the meta is you see it more or less often.
Also you didnt See it that much vs serral because Most protosses didnt wanna Go to that Stage vs him.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Solar's ZvZ really on point this tourney
|
The flank with the banes was great!
|
Lol how did Maru win that game
|
On May 26 2025 05:12 Die4Ever wrote:
Lol how did Maru win that game
SCV is good at blocking, the best OLine you can ever have.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On May 26 2025 05:12 Die4Ever wrote:
Lol how did Maru win that game
Big army vs minimal tech.
Pretty sure Classic's entire first round of forcefields primarily blocked his zealots out too
big call going mine heavy over tanks as well
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 04:51 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 04:45 Charoisaur wrote:On May 26 2025 04:28 Acrofales wrote:On May 26 2025 03:48 Pandain wrote:On May 26 2025 03:45 Acrofales wrote:
The balance council made protoss playable, at the cost of making ZvP unwatcheable and PvT just plain idiotic. Well this looks like the same PvZ I've watched for the past 5 years. The stalemate endgame has been a rare occurrence since the archon toilet and broodlord infestor both got nerfed about 2012 or so. Seeing 3/5 games go that way means things are changing back that way: the great book of protoss bullshit is no longer needed because they're happy going late game, which I do agree with you has always been unwatchable. Yeah PvZ lategame has always been like this but depending on how turtly the meta is you see it more or less often. Also you didnt See it that much vs serral because Most protosses didnt wanna Go to that Stage vs him.
Quite sensibly.
I watch more of this game than most, less than some.
I’ve definitely noticed Serral struggling a lot more. And for my money he’s the all-time ZvP king, and certainly has the best lategame there. Indeed I think his ZvP, maybe the strongest singular matchup we’ve seen
It’s partly a vibes thing. He still wins more often than not, and back in the day it’s not like he was never stretched. But these days it feels versus a top opponent even Serral has to sweat his absolute balls off every single game.
The one matchup I did miss was Reynor sweeping herO, which I gotta say surprised me on form last couple years. So I don’t know how that went.
It does feel Zoigs who are mixing in a lot of aggression are having a bit of success. Maybe that’s just an adjustment Serral has to make
|
|
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
|
|
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
and that'll be the last 3rd cc attempt we see lol
|
why? because he died to Storm?
|
Yea i think i understand why maru doesnt build a 3rd CC that often.
|
I think they need to un-nerf Ghost EMP especially with how Templar get Energy Overcharge.
|
On May 26 2025 05:32 tigera6 wrote:
I think they need to un-nerf Ghost EMP especially with how Templar get Energy Overcharge.
Makes sense with the ghost's increase supply cost too
|
On May 26 2025 05:33 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 05:32 tigera6 wrote:
I think they need to un-nerf Ghost EMP especially with how Templar get Energy Overcharge. Makes sense with the ghost's increase supply cost too
While one could try it i dont know if that is the way we would want to go.
|
Well maru wins the macro game this time.
|
Maru starts practicing and instantly becomes the best again
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 05:33 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 05:32 tigera6 wrote:
I think they need to un-nerf Ghost EMP especially with how Templar get Energy Overcharge. Makes sense with the ghost's increase supply cost too
Plz no
|
France12875 Posts
Maru playing well that game! Gogo
|
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn).
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Really really good execution from Maru in the end.
Funny to see his TvT excellence basically play out in TvP with the progressive positional zoning out around terrain
|
Not too bad for a guy who is washed
|
On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn).
Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side.
All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units.
All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field.
It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation.
|
On May 26 2025 06:14 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn). Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side. All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units. All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field. It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation.
you also see tempest here and there but never to the biggest of successes but yea i would just love for the game to not be dsigned to need air units to counter air units and even air units to counter certain ground comps (lurkers).
|
Hoping for this “new” solar to win.
Or will be see another annually Maru clowning on “old” solar 3-1
|
So Maru is finally destined for his DreamHack win unless Solar has a bag of ZvT novelties as big as that of Shin.
|
On May 26 2025 05:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 05:33 Die4Ever wrote:On May 26 2025 05:32 tigera6 wrote:
I think they need to un-nerf Ghost EMP especially with how Templar get Energy Overcharge. Makes sense with the ghost's increase supply cost too Plz no
Ghosts did not win that last match.
It was Liberators and Maru's patience/decisiveness vs Classic's hesitation and blunders. If Classic started the transition into air toss with his massive bank, this would have been over.
|
On May 26 2025 06:16 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:14 Blitzball04 wrote:On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn). Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side. All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units. All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field. It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation. you also see tempest here and there but never to the biggest of successes but yea i would just love for the game to not be dsigned to need air units to counter air units and even air units to counter certain ground comps (lurkers).
Air beating air beating ground is the original sin of SC2 late game.
|
On May 26 2025 05:48 Charoisaur wrote:
Maru starts practicing and instantly becomes the best again
Speaking of which: Serral seems the most shaky I have seen him in a long time. Yes, this is speaking in Serral standards but so far, 2025 is Serral's 2nd worst year after 2021.
Really solid performance by Maru in Dallas.
|
On May 26 2025 06:20 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 05:49 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 05:33 Die4Ever wrote:On May 26 2025 05:32 tigera6 wrote:
I think they need to un-nerf Ghost EMP especially with how Templar get Energy Overcharge. Makes sense with the ghost's increase supply cost too Plz no Ghosts did not win that last match. It was Liberators and Maru's patience/decisiveness vs Classic's hesitation and blunders. If Classic started the transition into air toss with his massive bank, this would have been over.
Transitioning into air against the guy who already have +2 air weapon and double Starport is very risky, unless you can sneak it past his attention somehow. Viking is just too good against most air unit, their weakness is spellcaster so you have to hit big Storm. I remember a couple time herO tried to transition into Air against Maru after having a great early game, but he ended up getting destroyed by the Vikings.
|
The players that beat Serral and Clem both out in the ro4
|
On May 26 2025 06:25 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:20 Pentarp wrote:On May 26 2025 05:49 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 05:33 Die4Ever wrote:On May 26 2025 05:32 tigera6 wrote:
I think they need to un-nerf Ghost EMP especially with how Templar get Energy Overcharge. Makes sense with the ghost's increase supply cost too Plz no Ghosts did not win that last match. It was Liberators and Maru's patience/decisiveness vs Classic's hesitation and blunders. If Classic started the transition into air toss with his massive bank, this would have been over. Transitioning into air against the guy who already have +2 air weapon and double Starport is very risky, unless you can sneak it past his attention somehow. Viking is just too good against most air unit, their weakness is spellcaster so you have to hit big Storm. I remember a couple time herO tried to transition into Air against Maru after having a great early game, but he ended up getting destroyed by the Vikings.
When a toss has that kind of the bank in the late game. There is zero excuses for not having 5 stargates and upgrading the air attack / armor.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 06:14 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn). Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side. All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units. All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field. It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation.
Toss players all know this, it’s easier said than done when Maru is in form and breathing down your neck.
In the same way, Ghost/Lib, pretty good but you have to get there.
They used to do it more frequently a few years back, that or big DT commitments. But I think back then they could play more greedily, more safely than now.
Also Stargate openers, be it oracle or phoenix/Collosus are way less common, and that made the transition flow that little bit better.
Gatewayman is more fun a watch anyway!
Toss are still doing pretty well in the matchup for quite some time now. So I cannae complain too much.
I actually don’t think it’s libs as the issue in a scenario like this anyway, they’re more the cherry on top.
Judging mostly from this series as tbh I haven’t seen too many TvPs go late in recent months, the turning point comes if you can’t 100% cripple their eco, or get a money engagement.
Eventually you end up with a Maru with a gigantic army full of marauders, tons of medivacs and even a few ghosts, even if they get dropped to 40ish SCVs.
Not a balance whine but in that specific scenario, Disruptors not 1-shotting marauders is big. You’re not shaving a few off every time, they’ll heal back up relatively quickly. Colossus change from laser giraffes of death, into basically tickling that army.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 06:25 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:20 Pentarp wrote:On May 26 2025 05:49 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 05:33 Die4Ever wrote:On May 26 2025 05:32 tigera6 wrote:
I think they need to un-nerf Ghost EMP especially with how Templar get Energy Overcharge. Makes sense with the ghost's increase supply cost too Plz no Ghosts did not win that last match. It was Liberators and Maru's patience/decisiveness vs Classic's hesitation and blunders. If Classic started the transition into air toss with his massive bank, this would have been over. Transitioning into air against the guy who already have +2 air weapon and double Starport is very risky, unless you can sneak it past his attention somehow. Viking is just too good against most air unit, their weakness is spellcaster so you have to hit big Storm. I remember a couple time herO tried to transition into Air against Maru after having a great early game, but he ended up getting destroyed by the Vikings.
Aye, or Mary just splits his 160 supply army up, that is hard to deal with making that transition
Tempests are slow and they’re pretty godawful in low numbers.
Easier transition in PvZ, probably a bit too easy for my tastes, but Tempest/Temp can more reliably hold what Z can throw at you
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Maru really looking in the groove. Some very smooth control and harass
|
France12875 Posts
On May 26 2025 06:26 Charoisaur wrote:
The players that beat Serral and Clem both out in the ro4
SHIN has a surprisingly good record versus Clem, he upset him a few times, but he was not favorite versus the remaining players.
Maru vs Classic is close but could have gone either way
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 05:48 Charoisaur wrote:
Maru starts practicing and instantly becomes the best again
I wouldn’t go that far, but it’s great to see him in shape for this tournament.
I wonder if all the circuit uncertainty has disrupted some players more than others. Difficult to motivate and peak at the right time and all that. Maru’s got well-publicised injury issues so it’s hard to justify grinding to stay in shape with months of uncertainty and all that. He does seem to be back now though. Serral’s never been a prolific grinder of lower stakes tournies, and Reynor was playing League half the year.
Solar playing pretty well and losing a set to Maru, is there a more iconic duo?
|
Looks like the annually solar punching bag practice for Maru
|
|
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 06:53 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:26 Charoisaur wrote:
The players that beat Serral and Clem both out in the ro4 SHIN has a surprisingly good record versus Clem, he upset him a few times, but he was not favorite versus the remaining players. Maru vs Classic is close but could have gone either way
Yeah Shin, and Dark for a bit did pretty decently against Clem IIRC, the more aggressive, tricky Zoigs seem to match up decently against his style.
That said, still a surprise to me nonetheless. Clem of a few years ago, could beat anyone but wasn’t quite at the same consistent god level as he showed last EWC and quite a lot of the time since.
I think it’s definitely added to the tournament though. For a while it felt unless they met earlier in the bracket it’d be Serral or Clem, and herO was basically a lock to be the best Toss of a weekend.
Seeing guys like SHIN, Solar, Classic genuinely in the mix has been pretty tasty. And basically all of the playoffs have been super competitive
|
Just waiting for the usual Maru choke now
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:03 Blitzball04 wrote:
Looks like the annually solar punching bag practice for Maru
I wonder if next time he plays a tournament, his team should just keep in the dark and if draws Serral, they just lie and gaslight him into thinking he’s playing Solar
|
On May 26 2025 07:04 Charoisaur wrote:
Just waiting for the usual Maru choke now
The choke vs. the punching bag?
|
On May 26 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 07:03 Blitzball04 wrote:
Looks like the annually solar punching bag practice for Maru I wonder if next time he plays a tournament, his team should just keep in the dark and if draws Serral, they just lie and gaslight him into thinking he’s playing Solar
A tournament where you know the list of players participating but it's a complete mystery who is playing who until the tournament is over would be pretty fun.
|
On May 26 2025 07:10 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 07:03 Blitzball04 wrote:
Looks like the annually solar punching bag practice for Maru I wonder if next time he plays a tournament, his team should just keep in the dark and if draws Serral, they just lie and gaslight him into thinking he’s playing Solar A tournament where you know the list of players participating but it's a complete mystery who is playing who until the tournament is over would be pretty fun.
Wardi, get on it
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:10 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 07:03 Blitzball04 wrote:
Looks like the annually solar punching bag practice for Maru I wonder if next time he plays a tournament, his team should just keep in the dark and if draws Serral, they just lie and gaslight him into thinking he’s playing Solar A tournament where you know the list of players participating but it's a complete mystery who is playing who until the tournament is over would be pretty fun.
I’d dig it for being something different, and a test of a different skillset.
If GSL lets you do plenty of prep and practice, and most weekenders allow you at least a little, what’s it look like if you can’t prep and mind game for a specific opponent at all?
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:17 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 07:10 JJH777 wrote:On May 26 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 07:03 Blitzball04 wrote:
Looks like the annually solar punching bag practice for Maru I wonder if next time he plays a tournament, his team should just keep in the dark and if draws Serral, they just lie and gaslight him into thinking he’s playing Solar A tournament where you know the list of players participating but it's a complete mystery who is playing who until the tournament is over would be pretty fun. Wardi, get on it
He’s busy enough haha, there’s only so much carrying his back can handle surely!
|
Hellbat pushes continue to not work
|
Maru should have researched Blue Flame early to deal with the Hydra and morph them to Hellbat
|
Neat. Now please continue making this a series, Solar.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:22 flashymarine wrote:Hellbat pushes continue to not work
When one finally does, imagine how good it’ll feel though!
|
On May 26 2025 06:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:14 Blitzball04 wrote:On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn). Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side. All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units. All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field. It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation. Toss players all know this, it’s easier said than done when Maru is in form and breathing down your neck. In the same way, Ghost/Lib, pretty good but you have to get there. They used to do it more frequently a few years back, that or big DT commitments. But I think back then they could play more greedily, more safely than now. Also Stargate openers, be it oracle or phoenix/Collosus are way less common, and that made the transition flow that little bit better. Gatewayman is more fun a watch anyway! Toss are still doing pretty well in the matchup for quite some time now. So I cannae complain too much. I actually don’t think it’s libs as the issue in a scenario like this anyway, they’re more the cherry on top. Judging mostly from this series as tbh I haven’t seen too many TvPs go late in recent months, the turning point comes if you can’t 100% cripple their eco, or get a money engagement. Eventually you end up with a Maru with a gigantic army full of marauders, tons of medivacs and even a few ghosts, even if they get dropped to 40ish SCVs. Not a balance whine but in that specific scenario, Disruptors not 1-shotting marauders is big. You’re not shaving a few off every time, they’ll heal back up relatively quickly. Colossus change from laser giraffes of death, into basically tickling that army.
Maru was on the defensive for most of the game. Instead of teching up, Classic was taking all the bases. That was countered perfectly by Maru gutting Classic's main. So all that econ could only make gateway units. PiG also pointed out how Classic needed more HTs vs the high number of libs and vikings, but he kept going for Robo units.
|
On May 26 2025 07:17 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 07:10 JJH777 wrote:On May 26 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 07:03 Blitzball04 wrote:
Looks like the annually solar punching bag practice for Maru I wonder if next time he plays a tournament, his team should just keep in the dark and if draws Serral, they just lie and gaslight him into thinking he’s playing Solar A tournament where you know the list of players participating but it's a complete mystery who is playing who until the tournament is over would be pretty fun. Wardi, get on it
It happened before, I think Feardragon organized it back in 2017? I remember Dark beating herO. The hard part was that as a viewer, it wasn't very exciting since you didn't know who to root for.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:31 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:36 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 06:14 Blitzball04 wrote:On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn). Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side. All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units. All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field. It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation. Toss players all know this, it’s easier said than done when Maru is in form and breathing down your neck. In the same way, Ghost/Lib, pretty good but you have to get there. They used to do it more frequently a few years back, that or big DT commitments. But I think back then they could play more greedily, more safely than now. Also Stargate openers, be it oracle or phoenix/Collosus are way less common, and that made the transition flow that little bit better. Gatewayman is more fun a watch anyway! Toss are still doing pretty well in the matchup for quite some time now. So I cannae complain too much. I actually don’t think it’s libs as the issue in a scenario like this anyway, they’re more the cherry on top. Judging mostly from this series as tbh I haven’t seen too many TvPs go late in recent months, the turning point comes if you can’t 100% cripple their eco, or get a money engagement. Eventually you end up with a Maru with a gigantic army full of marauders, tons of medivacs and even a few ghosts, even if they get dropped to 40ish SCVs. Not a balance whine but in that specific scenario, Disruptors not 1-shotting marauders is big. You’re not shaving a few off every time, they’ll heal back up relatively quickly. Colossus change from laser giraffes of death, into basically tickling that army. Maru was on the defensive for most of the game. Instead of teching up, Classic was taking all the bases. That was countered perfectly by Maru gutting Classic's main. So all that econ could only make gateway units. PiG also pointed out how Classic needed more HTs vs the high number of libs and vikings, but he kept going for Robo units.
You can’t always do everything at this level. Classic was in good spots at times because he went heavy tempo, heavy eco. It’s the dilemma of having a bedsheet that’s not long enough. Pull it up and your feet are cold, and the inverse.
Maybe you go heavier on temps, but they’re a more binary unit in that matchup. Robo stuff is worse, but more reliable. Temps can deliver that knockout punch, but you get a few money EMPs against you and you’re screwed.
Last cycle, when Classic and Stats were having a lot of success with carrier builds in the matchup, Maru absolutely wrecked both of them in GSLs.
I’m not by any means saying it’s impossible, it’s just hard. And while Classic is one of the GOATs, Maru is just better at the matchup if he’s on it.
That transition is way more doable if you’re not playing the Terran lategame master, or a Clem that can be seemingly everywhere at once.
|
Solar looked good then Maru remembered he is a multitasking god.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:51 Lexender wrote:
Solar looked good then Maru remembered he is a multitasking god.
Maru on form is just a joy to watch
|
Insane drop play and aggression from Maru. Congratz.
|
|
|
Turns out Maru can play like Clem
|
So Maru hidden attribute is +30% power against Solar/Shin?
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:56 tigera6 wrote:
So Maru hidden attribute is +30% power against Solar/Shin?
Hidden?
|
Congratulations to Maru!
This was a fun weekender. I must say though the best series by far was Shin vs. Clem. Action-packed, cool new style, and of course the upset of Clem being beaten at TvZ.
|
France12875 Posts
Congratulations Maru! Qualifying for EWC and even winning the tournament, playing quite well on top of it. Hopefully he comes out healthy enough to do well at EWC as well
|
France12875 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:55 Charoisaur wrote:
Turns out Maru can play like Clem
Maru was faster than Clem at his age / without injury
Getting old in esports is no joke
Thankfully (in a weird way) in sc2 there is barely any new blood so you can win tournaments past your prime
|
On May 26 2025 07:44 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 07:17 Die4Ever wrote:On May 26 2025 07:10 JJH777 wrote:On May 26 2025 07:05 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 07:03 Blitzball04 wrote:
Looks like the annually solar punching bag practice for Maru I wonder if next time he plays a tournament, his team should just keep in the dark and if draws Serral, they just lie and gaslight him into thinking he’s playing Solar A tournament where you know the list of players participating but it's a complete mystery who is playing who until the tournament is over would be pretty fun. Wardi, get on it It happened before, I think Feardragon organized it back in 2017? I remember Dark beating herO. The hard part was that as a viewer, it wasn't very exciting since you didn't know who to root for.
I feel like the viewers should know though
|
On May 26 2025 07:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 07:31 Pentarp wrote:On May 26 2025 06:36 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 06:14 Blitzball04 wrote:On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn). Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side. All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units. All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field. It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation. Toss players all know this, it’s easier said than done when Maru is in form and breathing down your neck. In the same way, Ghost/Lib, pretty good but you have to get there. They used to do it more frequently a few years back, that or big DT commitments. But I think back then they could play more greedily, more safely than now. Also Stargate openers, be it oracle or phoenix/Collosus are way less common, and that made the transition flow that little bit better. Gatewayman is more fun a watch anyway! Toss are still doing pretty well in the matchup for quite some time now. So I cannae complain too much. I actually don’t think it’s libs as the issue in a scenario like this anyway, they’re more the cherry on top. Judging mostly from this series as tbh I haven’t seen too many TvPs go late in recent months, the turning point comes if you can’t 100% cripple their eco, or get a money engagement. Eventually you end up with a Maru with a gigantic army full of marauders, tons of medivacs and even a few ghosts, even if they get dropped to 40ish SCVs. Not a balance whine but in that specific scenario, Disruptors not 1-shotting marauders is big. You’re not shaving a few off every time, they’ll heal back up relatively quickly. Colossus change from laser giraffes of death, into basically tickling that army. Maru was on the defensive for most of the game. Instead of teching up, Classic was taking all the bases. That was countered perfectly by Maru gutting Classic's main. So all that econ could only make gateway units. PiG also pointed out how Classic needed more HTs vs the high number of libs and vikings, but he kept going for Robo units. You can’t always do everything at this level. Classic was in good spots at times because he went heavy tempo, heavy eco. It’s the dilemma of having a bedsheet that’s not long enough. Pull it up and your feet are cold, and the inverse. Maybe you go heavier on temps, but they’re a more binary unit in that matchup. Robo stuff is worse, but more reliable. Temps can deliver that knockout punch, but you get a few money EMPs against you and you’re screwed. Last cycle, when Classic and Stats were having a lot of success with carrier builds in the matchup, Maru absolutely wrecked both of them in GSLs. I’m not by any means saying it’s impossible, it’s just hard. And while Classic is one of the GOATs, Maru is just better at the matchup if he’s on it. That transition is way more doable if you’re not playing the Terran lategame master, or a Clem that can be seemingly everywhere at once.
Classic also went for THREE ROBOS as well as mass expands (maybe he added the third robo when the ones in natural were being threatened, idk). Classic had a good lead but went for the thing that did not answer mass libs - which is airtoss with tempests. Add a few HTs and vikings get zoned out. EMPs are a managable threat. It's been nerfed several times now and Protoss are still complaining about it lol
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 08:02 Poopi wrote:Maru was faster than Clem at his age / without injury Getting old in esports is no joke Thankfully (in a weird way) in sc2 there is barely any new blood so you can win tournaments past your prime
He really wasn’t. Tactically better absolutely, faster relative to his competition perhaps, outright mechanically cleaner I don’t think anyone has been better than Clem at peak form.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 08:07 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 07:44 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 07:31 Pentarp wrote:On May 26 2025 06:36 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 06:14 Blitzball04 wrote:On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn). Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side. All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units. All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field. It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation. Toss players all know this, it’s easier said than done when Maru is in form and breathing down your neck. In the same way, Ghost/Lib, pretty good but you have to get there. They used to do it more frequently a few years back, that or big DT commitments. But I think back then they could play more greedily, more safely than now. Also Stargate openers, be it oracle or phoenix/Collosus are way less common, and that made the transition flow that little bit better. Gatewayman is more fun a watch anyway! Toss are still doing pretty well in the matchup for quite some time now. So I cannae complain too much. I actually don’t think it’s libs as the issue in a scenario like this anyway, they’re more the cherry on top. Judging mostly from this series as tbh I haven’t seen too many TvPs go late in recent months, the turning point comes if you can’t 100% cripple their eco, or get a money engagement. Eventually you end up with a Maru with a gigantic army full of marauders, tons of medivacs and even a few ghosts, even if they get dropped to 40ish SCVs. Not a balance whine but in that specific scenario, Disruptors not 1-shotting marauders is big. You’re not shaving a few off every time, they’ll heal back up relatively quickly. Colossus change from laser giraffes of death, into basically tickling that army. Maru was on the defensive for most of the game. Instead of teching up, Classic was taking all the bases. That was countered perfectly by Maru gutting Classic's main. So all that econ could only make gateway units. PiG also pointed out how Classic needed more HTs vs the high number of libs and vikings, but he kept going for Robo units. You can’t always do everything at this level. Classic was in good spots at times because he went heavy tempo, heavy eco. It’s the dilemma of having a bedsheet that’s not long enough. Pull it up and your feet are cold, and the inverse. Maybe you go heavier on temps, but they’re a more binary unit in that matchup. Robo stuff is worse, but more reliable. Temps can deliver that knockout punch, but you get a few money EMPs against you and you’re screwed. Last cycle, when Classic and Stats were having a lot of success with carrier builds in the matchup, Maru absolutely wrecked both of them in GSLs. I’m not by any means saying it’s impossible, it’s just hard. And while Classic is one of the GOATs, Maru is just better at the matchup if he’s on it. That transition is way more doable if you’re not playing the Terran lategame master, or a Clem that can be seemingly everywhere at once. Classic also went for THREE ROBOS as well as mass expands (maybe he added the third robo when the ones in natural were being threatened, idk). Classic had a good lead but went for the thing that did not answer mass libs - which is airtoss with tempests. Add a few HTs and vikings get zoned out. EMPs are a managable threat. It's been nerfed several times now and Protoss are still complaining about it lol
Upgrades are a factor. If you’re playing gatewayman + robo and temp supports, off dual forge, with the chrono mechanic you’re going to be in a good spot there.
Swap into air and you need the space to get multiple Stargates up, a fleet and you’re starting from 0/0 when you’re making that transition.
As I said, it’s not an impossible transition it’s just bloody hard against someone as good as Maru.
You used to see it more when Phoenix/Colossus was more viable because you had the infrastructure way earlier.
You can’t really hold your third/fourth with that comp anymore without battery overcharge. You can with gatewayman and fast temps, but that makes the switch less smooth.
That aside, congrats to Maru and it was great to see him showing such a level here, I was genuinely worried that injuries had finally taken their toll and one of the all-time greats was done, and even with players I don’t like that’s always a sad thing, and Maru certainly isn’t one of those.
|
Ah it ended up as your typically Maru vs solar beat down every time they race each other
|
|
|
On May 26 2025 08:12 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 08:02 Poopi wrote:On May 26 2025 07:55 Charoisaur wrote:
Turns out Maru can play like Clem Maru was faster than Clem at his age / without injury Getting old in esports is no joke Thankfully (in a weird way) in sc2 there is barely any new blood so you can win tournaments past your prime He really wasn’t. Tactically better absolutely, faster relative to his competition perhaps, outright mechanically cleaner I don’t think anyone has been better than Clem at peak form.
100% agree. I have watched Maru since he was like 12. He was always mechanically better than everyone but Clem is at another level.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 26 2025 08:31 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 08:12 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 08:02 Poopi wrote:On May 26 2025 07:55 Charoisaur wrote:
Turns out Maru can play like Clem Maru was faster than Clem at his age / without injury Getting old in esports is no joke Thankfully (in a weird way) in sc2 there is barely any new blood so you can win tournaments past your prime He really wasn’t. Tactically better absolutely, faster relative to his competition perhaps, outright mechanically cleaner I don’t think anyone has been better than Clem at peak form. 100% agree. I have watched Maru since he was like 12. He was always mechanically better than everyone but Clem is at another level.
When Innovation first broke out I really didn’t see how anyone could really top his mechanical level, at the time it was mind blowing stuff. I think Maru did in terms of controlling more sophisticated armies, and in terms of raw speed and just consistent micro/macro Clem did too.
Clem’s FPV is just absolutely insane when he’s on it. And it’s not chaotic fastness or APM spam, it’s clean as all fuck
Reynor on absolute peak form, is up there. Even Serral isn’t, his superpower is unbelievable decision-making, and yeah incredible mechanics too. The complete package really, raw mechanics wise though it’s definitely Clem.
|
On May 26 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 08:07 Pentarp wrote:On May 26 2025 07:44 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 07:31 Pentarp wrote:On May 26 2025 06:36 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2025 06:14 Blitzball04 wrote:On May 26 2025 06:07 darklycid wrote:
I hate libs the way zvp and pvt devolve in the lategame because of air units is pretty annoying (and yes i know terran kinda needs libs rn). Libs are OP but the blame is mostly on the toss side. All these toss players are still stubborn and dumb as fuck against it after a decade. Instead of switching to tempest/carriers to support their ground army. All these toss players continue to double down on mass gateway and more useless Robo units. All these late game always end the same once mass libs hits the field. It’s already been proven to death that mass gateway gets slaughter in these situation. Toss players all know this, it’s easier said than done when Maru is in form and breathing down your neck. In the same way, Ghost/Lib, pretty good but you have to get there. They used to do it more frequently a few years back, that or big DT commitments. But I think back then they could play more greedily, more safely than now. Also Stargate openers, be it oracle or phoenix/Collosus are way less common, and that made the transition flow that little bit better. Gatewayman is more fun a watch anyway! Toss are still doing pretty well in the matchup for quite some time now. So I cannae complain too much. I actually don’t think it’s libs as the issue in a scenario like this anyway, they’re more the cherry on top. Judging mostly from this series as tbh I haven’t seen too many TvPs go late in recent months, the turning point comes if you can’t 100% cripple their eco, or get a money engagement. Eventually you end up with a Maru with a gigantic army full of marauders, tons of medivacs and even a few ghosts, even if they get dropped to 40ish SCVs. Not a balance whine but in that specific scenario, Disruptors not 1-shotting marauders is big. You’re not shaving a few off every time, they’ll heal back up relatively quickly. Colossus change from laser giraffes of death, into basically tickling that army. Maru was on the defensive for most of the game. Instead of teching up, Classic was taking all the bases. That was countered perfectly by Maru gutting Classic's main. So all that econ could only make gateway units. PiG also pointed out how Classic needed more HTs vs the high number of libs and vikings, but he kept going for Robo units. You can’t always do everything at this level. Classic was in good spots at times because he went heavy tempo, heavy eco. It’s the dilemma of having a bedsheet that’s not long enough. Pull it up and your feet are cold, and the inverse. Maybe you go heavier on temps, but they’re a more binary unit in that matchup. Robo stuff is worse, but more reliable. Temps can deliver that knockout punch, but you get a few money EMPs against you and you’re screwed. Last cycle, when Classic and Stats were having a lot of success with carrier builds in the matchup, Maru absolutely wrecked both of them in GSLs. I’m not by any means saying it’s impossible, it’s just hard. And while Classic is one of the GOATs, Maru is just better at the matchup if he’s on it. That transition is way more doable if you’re not playing the Terran lategame master, or a Clem that can be seemingly everywhere at once. Classic also went for THREE ROBOS as well as mass expands (maybe he added the third robo when the ones in natural were being threatened, idk). Classic had a good lead but went for the thing that did not answer mass libs - which is airtoss with tempests. Add a few HTs and vikings get zoned out. EMPs are a managable threat. It's been nerfed several times now and Protoss are still complaining about it lol Upgrades are a factor. If you’re playing gatewayman + robo and temp supports, off dual forge, with the chrono mechanic you’re going to be in a good spot there. Swap into air and you need the space to get multiple Stargates up, a fleet and you’re starting from 0/0 when you’re making that transition. As I said, it’s not an impossible transition it’s just bloody hard against someone as good as Maru. You used to see it more when Phoenix/Colossus was more viable because you had the infrastructure way earlier. You can’t really hold your third/fourth with that comp anymore without battery overcharge. You can with gatewayman and fast temps, but that makes the switch less smooth. That aside, congrats to Maru and it was great to see him showing such a level here, I was genuinely worried that injuries had finally taken their toll and one of the all-time greats was done, and even with players I don’t like that’s always a sad thing, and Maru certainly isn’t one of those.
Tempests + HT storms don't care about upgrades that much. Tempests arent supposed to be in the front taking damage. You just need air attack upgrades and a few tempests for the libs. Then you slowly transition into full upgrades and carriers.
Maru vs HerO and Cure vs Hero matches also shows Maru going for early game timings and SCV pulls - because Protoss lategame is very strong.
|
without player interviews or any real stage presence this tournament kind of felt lifeless to me. i dont know, the games were amazing, and i got really hyped for them, but so much of what makes LANs special is missing. There weren't even shots of the crowd. This entire tournament could have been replicated 1:1 if it was online and just had player cams.
|
lol poor Solar. No matter what the meta or their respective forms Solar is never gonna beat Maru in a Best of 7.
|
Great tournament. Really seems like the bracket was as determinative as the players. Surprised to see Serral and Clem get eliminated.
|
United Kingdom38255 Posts
Had to miss the end of the finals which was a bummer, but it looks like it was the foregone conclusion everyone expected at that point. Reports of Maru's demise may have been overexaggerated, he was very clean once he got going.
|
Wtf, I didn't even realize this event was happening. GJ Maru, I guess.
|
United States33388 Posts
|
So. That European qualifier is gonna be brutal. Meanwhile Korea... maybe Reynor stays there? Might be easier :'D
|
Are guys like Byun/Cure/Gumiho/Zoun/Creator/Bunny/Rogue really easier to get through than Showtime/heromarine/spirit/Lambo/Elazer? I'd personally consider the KR gauntlet harder there. Of course Serral will be in it as well but Reynor and Serral will likely be seeded into opposite brackets depending on how the seeding works.
|
On May 27 2025 06:21 JJH777 wrote:
Are guys like Byun/Cure/Gumiho/Zoun/Creator/Bunny/Rogue really easier to get through than Showtime/heromarine/spirit/Lambo/Elazer? I'd personally consider the KR gauntlet harder there. Of course Serral will be in it as well but Reynor and Serral will likely be seeded into opposite brackets depending on how the seeding works.
KR is much harder.
|
Grats to Maru! Good to see him powering-up again.
|
By the way, with Reynor and Serral yet having to qualify for EWC, the stakes have also been raised at BGE Stara Zagora 2025 in June, which is another place to earn a spot.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 27 2025 08:27 Antithesis wrote:
By the way, with Reynor and Serral yet having to qualify for EWC, the stakes have also been raised at BGE Stara Zagora 2025 in June, which is another place to earn a spot.
I was already super pumped for it anyway, great venue, cool to see a new tournament that isn’t piggybacking on EWC money.
But having those extra stakes riding on it, even better!
|
On May 27 2025 06:21 JJH777 wrote:
Are guys like Byun/Cure/Gumiho/Zoun/Creator/Bunny/Rogue really easier to get through than Showtime/heromarine/spirit/Lambo/Elazer? I'd personally consider the KR gauntlet harder there. Of course Serral will be in it as well but Reynor and Serral will likely be seeded into opposite brackets depending on how the seeding works.
I was being a bit facetious. But depending on the format and the seeding it's possible that Reynor and Serral have to face off. And while Reynor had Serral's number for a while, it has been about that same amount of time since the last time he won. So I'd rate Reynor's chances over any of the Koreans ahead of his chances vs Serral. Of course, it wouldn't be just one of the top (remaining) Koreans, but multiple he'd have to fight through. So while the EU qualifier will no doubt have more matches, most will be considerably easier than anything he might have to battle through in Korea...
|
On May 26 2025 12:32 CicadaSC wrote:
without player interviews or any real stage presence this tournament kind of felt lifeless to me. i dont know, the games were amazing, and i got really hyped for them, but so much of what makes LANs special is missing. There weren't even shots of the crowd. This entire tournament could have been replicated 1:1 if it was online and just had player cams.
The main stage was for CS2 and other bigger esports. If this was played online, then there's the issue of ping which greatly impacts the competitiveness of the players. LAN is best.
I was more disappointed that the casters had to cast remotely. For such a large SC2 tournament, surely EWC could have flown a couple casters out?
|
Congrats to Maru and the rest of the top 4... all-Korean semi-finals!
|
On May 27 2025 09:01 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 12:32 CicadaSC wrote:
without player interviews or any real stage presence this tournament kind of felt lifeless to me. i dont know, the games were amazing, and i got really hyped for them, but so much of what makes LANs special is missing. There weren't even shots of the crowd. This entire tournament could have been replicated 1:1 if it was online and just had player cams.
The main stage was for CS2 and other bigger esports. If this was played online, then there's the issue of ping which greatly impacts the competitiveness of the players. LAN is best. I was more disappointed that the casters had to cast remotely. For such a large SC2 tournament, surely EWC could have flown a couple casters out?
I'm talking about replicated from a production perspective, obviously, as cited by my points. i dont know why people invent arguments for me im not making.
|
On May 27 2025 12:46 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 09:01 geokilla wrote:On May 26 2025 12:32 CicadaSC wrote:
without player interviews or any real stage presence this tournament kind of felt lifeless to me. i dont know, the games were amazing, and i got really hyped for them, but so much of what makes LANs special is missing. There weren't even shots of the crowd. This entire tournament could have been replicated 1:1 if it was online and just had player cams.
The main stage was for CS2 and other bigger esports. If this was played online, then there's the issue of ping which greatly impacts the competitiveness of the players. LAN is best. I was more disappointed that the casters had to cast remotely. For such a large SC2 tournament, surely EWC could have flown a couple casters out? I'm talking about replicated from a production perspective, obviously, as cited by my points. i dont know why people invent arguments for me im not making.
I was watching both CS2 and SC2 and yes production for CS2 was way better in all facets but I take what I can get for SC2 these days.
Compared to ESL running Dallas last year, this year was a skeleton version and not fully fleshed out.
|
To be fair, this event is not really a global “championship”, but rather just an offline qualifier that give extra money incentive. So they probably cut everything possible related to production cost.
|
Yeah, where does DH Dallas compare to GSL in the GOAT conversation, since this event had all the vastly superior European players?
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 28 2025 08:58 Telephone wrote:
Yeah, where does DH Dallas compare to GSL in the GOAT conversation, since this event had all the vastly superior European players?
GOAT convo is dead. I just don’t see much possibility of anyone being able to make much movement given how the scene is going.
Maybe herO given he’s been largely carrying Toss. He’s by far the best in terms of players who came back from military so there’s that angle, maybe he can move up a spot or two in this era.
Clem can move up a bit but there’s nothing he can do, now, to genuinely enter GOAT territory. Even another dominant EWC win. Even being the only pro to ever really have an off-race matchup good enough to consistently play in whatever tournament. And I can’t see SC2’s pro scene going much beyond this year.
I’d definitely 100% rate Dallas above GSL. And not just because better players. GSL even when it clearly lacked a couple of the best in the world always had that prep angle that set it apart, that almost unique challenge versus every other tournament.
It barely has that anymore. I think we saw more mind games and smart prepared builds in the group stages than in the playoffs this time around, even if maybe not every player is quite at the same level. Playoffs weren’t much different from your usual weekender, you can’t prep on such a tight turnaround, versus a variety of opponents.
Also I mean the time gap wasn’t massive, I felt more players were clearly in better shape in Dallas than last GSL. Maru was on point, Reynor looked less rusty etc.
One is just seeing the consequences of EWC’s fucking genius idea to just delay giving the scene any certainty for half a year. Players are more rusty, GSLs have to be squashed into much smaller timeframes.
|
I have to agree with you there. How about the last few GSLs that weren't this year, though? Or last Dreamhack dallas compared to all of the above?
I think that yet another all-korean ro4 further justifies the devaluing of region-locked tournaments, because even today, when someone could legitimately argue that some of the greatest players are in EU, it's hard to discredit just how dominant the Korean scene has been for the last 15 years.
And for some more bait (sorry WombaT, I really respect your opinion and all that you've done for the scene!), so the GOAT conversation is dead, and Rogue or maybe Maru is the GOAT of all time?
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 28 2025 10:34 Telephone wrote:
I have to agree with you there. How about the last few GSLs that weren't this year, though? Or last Dreamhack dallas compared to all of the above?
I think that yet another all-korean ro4 further justifies the devaluing of region-locked tournaments, because even today, when someone could legitimately argue that some of the greatest players are in EU, it's hard to discredit just how dominant the Korean scene has been for the last 15 years.
And for some more bait (sorry Wax, I really respect your opinion and all that you've done for the scene!), so the GOAT conversation is dead, and Rogue or maybe Maru is the GOAT of all time?
It’s pretty rare you get an all-Korean Ro4 in a modern international tournament, indeed the fact it was even mentioned at all probably attests to a shift. Definitely more depth there even now, but the EU big hitters especially are often up at the business end.
Not a stat, I’ll have to check it but off the top of my head but I think Serral has more Ro4 or better results than Ro8 or worse results, for quite some time now. If he doesn’t it’s close, but it’s still pretty bonkers. My GOAT for that, and similar reasons
I think Rogue’s claim is lessened by him coming back from military and not doing very much. If he stayed away, well he bowed out as an elite player. If he came back and emulated what say, herO has shown, I think making a return to the top after an enforced period away maybe enhances his claim.
A middle ground where you return and you’re a decent pro with the odd flash, less so. I think Innovation’s claim was lessened for similar reasons, although in his case it was existing in a ‘good enough to be a decent pro, not bothered enough to be a top one’ for quite some time, whereas if he’d retired, less that problem. Regardless I still have Innovation as my personal number 3, behind Maru
Other claims, there’s usually someone else in the ballpark. Peak level? Well yeah Innovation was scary as fuck, but so was/is Maru at his very best, so too Serral. Clem doesn’t have the back catalogue of titles but his absolute best play may be the best we’ve seen. World Champs? You’ve a few in and around 3 of those or equivalents. Starleagues? Ok Maru’s got a gap, although he really only started stretching it as rivals dropped off. Premiers? Serral’s got a decent gap but it’s not a chasm if we discount some regionals.
Consistency though? Of all of my crude categories, this is probably the one where there’s one guy who’s streets ahead. He simply doesn’t lose early. If he doesn’t make an Ro4 or finals it’s often to the winner, and if it’s an ‘upset’, he’s not getting swept the series usually goes to the final set. And he’s either topping or close to topping most of the others too.
That aside, last few GSLs don’t have that special sauce for me either. I don’t rate them as highly. The lack of top dog foreigners is part of it, given how competitive they are internationally. I don’t like the format changes either. I think cutting the player pool, understandable to some degree, but definitely I dislike squashing the Ro4 and finals together because it diminishes the prep element.
So long as records aren’t considered equivalent, I’m OK with that. Trap is the only player to make the Ro8+ in 10 seasons in a row, under the old format (my only ever Liquipedia edit haha). I don’t think anyone is in a realistic position to do it now, but if someone did it’s hardly the same prospect as riding through both the Ro32 and Ro16 group gauntlet, not having a bad day at the office and doing that for 10 straight tournaments.
I don’t think there’s much of a case for region locking anymore, equally I don’t think the economics of the scene are going to enable many top class, international fields at offline events for much longer.
|
think Rogue’s claim is lessened by him coming back from military and not doing very much. If he stayed away, well he bowed out as an elite player. If he came back and emulated what say, herO has shown, I think making a return to the top after an enforced period away maybe enhances his claim.
Couldn't disagree more. It makes no sense to me that trying and failing to do something should punish you compared to not trying at all. He still has the same results as before so why should he be punished for trying to come back?
And what difference does it make if the mediocre results are at the end or at the beginning of ones career, to me it's just as senseless as saying Serral should be punished for the mediocre first 5 years of his career.
Do Ronaldo and Messi have less of a Goat claim now because they continue their careers in lesser leagues and can't compete at the very top anymore?
On the topic: The Goat is still Serral to me, but if Maru wins EWC it will be him. If he does that he will have succeeded in every format and in every era, I don't think Serrals resumeé can compete with that
|
On May 28 2025 10:34 Telephone wrote:
I have to agree with you there. How about the last few GSLs that weren't this year, though? Or last Dreamhack dallas compared to all of the above?
I think that yet another all-korean ro4 further justifies the devaluing of region-locked tournaments, because even today, when someone could legitimately argue that some of the greatest players are in EU, it's hard to discredit just how dominant the Korean scene has been for the last 15 years.
And for some more bait (sorry WombaT, I really respect your opinion and all that you've done for the scene!), so the GOAT conversation is dead, and Rogue or maybe Maru is the GOAT of all time?
I feel this year has an asterisk to it because of the uncertainty and crampedness much like the Covid year had for beeing all online only.
An all korean Ro4 is something we didn't have for almost 8 years outside of Korea. Definitely the exception to the rule and quite an outlier. Wouldn't put any weight into that.
Nah still Serral. That one rushed tournament doesn't make a dent here. If Maru or Rogue would win everything there is to win this year we could open that discussion again though.
|
I would put more weight to this tournament over any of the GSL, PigFest or online tournament so far this year. Its result probably is an outlier, but still means something in the grand scheme of things, especially with the spots to EWC on the line. Does that predict anything for EWC? No. Does it make me change my opinion about player performance and rating overall? Yes.
As for the GOAT debate, this one doesnt change much due to its small impact, but who win EWC will have a better argument imo.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 28 2025 16:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +
think Rogue’s claim is lessened by him coming back from military and not doing very much. If he stayed away, well he bowed out as an elite player. If he came back and emulated what say, herO has shown, I think making a return to the top after an enforced period away maybe enhances his claim.
Couldn't disagree more. It makes no sense to me that trying and failing to do something should punish you compared to not trying at all. He still has the same results as before so why should he be punished for trying to come back? And what difference does it make if the mediocre results are at the end or at the beginning of ones career, to me it's just as senseless as saying Serral should be punished for the mediocre first 5 years of his career. Do Ronaldo and Messi have less of a Goat claim now because they continue their careers in lesser leagues and can't compete at the very top anymore? On the topic: The Goat is still Serral to me, but if Maru wins EWC it will be him. If he does that he will have succeeded in every format and in every era, I don't think Serrals resumeé can compete with that
It’s tough at the top of GOAT lists.
I don’t personally think Rogue had a great claim versus Maru or Serral anyway. In the same ballpark certainly.
Going to your football example. Ronaldinho was the man for a few years, probably my favourite player to watch. Let’s say he has his career ended at his Barcelona peak. It’s difficult to argue he was greater than Messi or Ronaldo based on his subsequent drop off. The Ronaldinho who was forced to quit playing at the peak of his powers, the ‘what if?’ version would be an easier argument to me.
I wouldn’t say it’s punishing him, he’s had a great career, which isn’t really diminished either way, and folks below him haven’t really matched those for the most part.
It’s just the two he’s chasing and for me that gap gets bigger if he’s not posting statement wins.
If Rogue had just sailed off into the military sunset while a championship level player, there’s that question of what more he could have accomplished without an enforced break. If he comes back and does a herO it’s ’wow guy got back into shape quickly and few have done that, what could he have done without the enforced break?’
If you come back and don’t get back to that real cutting edge, you’ve kinda answered those hypotheticals in the negatory.
For me it doesn’t diminish his legacy, but it doesn’t enhance it either. And Serral and Maru have kept winning things in the interim too.
That said maybe Rogue goes mental and somehow wins EWC, which would be one of the great comeback stories in the history of the game, and he’s right back in that conversation
|
On May 28 2025 22:33 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 16:21 Charoisaur wrote:
think Rogue’s claim is lessened by him coming back from military and not doing very much. If he stayed away, well he bowed out as an elite player. If he came back and emulated what say, herO has shown, I think making a return to the top after an enforced period away maybe enhances his claim.
Couldn't disagree more. It makes no sense to me that trying and failing to do something should punish you compared to not trying at all. He still has the same results as before so why should he be punished for trying to come back? And what difference does it make if the mediocre results are at the end or at the beginning of ones career, to me it's just as senseless as saying Serral should be punished for the mediocre first 5 years of his career. Do Ronaldo and Messi have less of a Goat claim now because they continue their careers in lesser leagues and can't compete at the very top anymore? On the topic: The Goat is still Serral to me, but if Maru wins EWC it will be him. If he does that he will have succeeded in every format and in every era, I don't think Serrals resumeé can compete with that It’s tough at the top of GOAT lists. I don’t personally think Rogue had a great claim versus Maru or Serral anyway. In the same ballpark certainly. Going to your football example. Ronaldinho was the man for a few years, probably my favourite player to watch. Let’s say he has his career ended at his Barcelona peak. It’s difficult to argue he was greater than Messi or Ronaldo based on his subsequent drop off. The Ronaldinho who was forced to quit playing at the peak of his powers, the ‘what if?’ version would be an easier argument to me. I wouldn’t say it’s punishing him, he’s had a great career, which isn’t really diminished either way, and folks below him haven’t really matched those for the most part. It’s just the two he’s chasing and for me that gap gets bigger if he’s not posting statement wins. If Rogue had just sailed off into the military sunset while a championship level player, there’s that question of what more he could have accomplished without an enforced break. If he comes back and does a herO it’s ’wow guy got back into shape quickly and few have done that, what could he have done without the enforced break?’ If you come back and don’t get back to that real cutting edge, you’ve kinda answered those hypotheticals in the negatory. For me it doesn’t diminish his legacy, but it doesn’t enhance it either. And Serral and Maru have kept winning things in the interim too. That said maybe Rogue goes mental and somehow wins EWC, which would be one of the great comeback stories in the history of the game, and he’s right back in that conversation
I don't think 'what ifs' are relevant in such a conversation at all anyway. Either you have the results or you don't, if you start considering hypothetical what ifs then there's no factual basis of discussion anymore.
Someone that retires early shouldn't get extra points for what he might or might not have accomplished in the future.
Agree though that Rogue is a solid, and clear third anyway
|
On May 28 2025 16:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +
think Rogue’s claim is lessened by him coming back from military and not doing very much. If he stayed away, well he bowed out as an elite player. If he came back and emulated what say, herO has shown, I think making a return to the top after an enforced period away maybe enhances his claim.
Couldn't disagree more. It makes no sense to me that trying and failing to do something should punish you compared to not trying at all. He still has the same results as before so why should he be punished for trying to come back? And what difference does it make if the mediocre results are at the end or at the beginning of ones career, to me it's just as senseless as saying Serral should be punished for the mediocre first 5 years of his career. Do Ronaldo and Messi have less of a Goat claim now because they continue their careers in lesser leagues and can't compete at the very top anymore? On the topic: The Goat is still Serral to me, but if Maru wins EWC it will be him. If he does that he will have succeeded in every format and in every era, I don't think Serrals resumeé can compete with that
Serral wasn't a full time pro before finishing school and that is the key difference, at least in my opinion. Once he put in the hours, he basically dominated the scene in nearly every year or was a close second, while others went up and down the dominance hierarchy.
Maru winning EWC would open up a hot discussion for sure. But for me, it will most likely be still be Serral. Yes, Maru has competed in the prime era and won one other tournament that Serral did not, but the circumstances why Serral did are explainable. Plus, Serral simply dominated the scene (including GOAT contenders... and I mean mostly statistically, not 1v1s) in ways, no one else ever did. This one tournament that he did not win, in my opinion is rather irrelevant.
To Charoi and everyone else: Keep your GOAT-bullets in the chamber... I'm gonna release the update of my GOAT analysis some time this weekend, with a big rework, the inclusion of Mvp, Rain and Life as well as team results.
Looking forward to your guy's thoughts.
|
On May 30 2025 04:43 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 16:21 Charoisaur wrote:
think Rogue’s claim is lessened by him coming back from military and not doing very much. If he stayed away, well he bowed out as an elite player. If he came back and emulated what say, herO has shown, I think making a return to the top after an enforced period away maybe enhances his claim.
Couldn't disagree more. It makes no sense to me that trying and failing to do something should punish you compared to not trying at all. He still has the same results as before so why should he be punished for trying to come back? And what difference does it make if the mediocre results are at the end or at the beginning of ones career, to me it's just as senseless as saying Serral should be punished for the mediocre first 5 years of his career. Do Ronaldo and Messi have less of a Goat claim now because they continue their careers in lesser leagues and can't compete at the very top anymore? On the topic: The Goat is still Serral to me, but if Maru wins EWC it will be him. If he does that he will have succeeded in every format and in every era, I don't think Serrals resumeé can compete with that Serral wasn't a full time pro before finishing school and that is the key difference, at least in my opinion. Once he put in the hours, he basically dominated the scene in nearly every year or was a close second, while others went up and down the dominance hierarchy.
Didn't Life win a GSL at 15 while still going to school? That shows it's possible. a sample size of 1 should be enough here given it's the same sample size of players that shows winning a premier tournament post-military is possible (only herO).
|
On May 30 2025 06:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2025 04:43 PremoBeats wrote:On May 28 2025 16:21 Charoisaur wrote:
think Rogue’s claim is lessened by him coming back from military and not doing very much. If he stayed away, well he bowed out as an elite player. If he came back and emulated what say, herO has shown, I think making a return to the top after an enforced period away maybe enhances his claim.
Couldn't disagree more. It makes no sense to me that trying and failing to do something should punish you compared to not trying at all. He still has the same results as before so why should he be punished for trying to come back? And what difference does it make if the mediocre results are at the end or at the beginning of ones career, to me it's just as senseless as saying Serral should be punished for the mediocre first 5 years of his career. Do Ronaldo and Messi have less of a Goat claim now because they continue their careers in lesser leagues and can't compete at the very top anymore? On the topic: The Goat is still Serral to me, but if Maru wins EWC it will be him. If he does that he will have succeeded in every format and in every era, I don't think Serrals resumeé can compete with that Serral wasn't a full time pro before finishing school and that is the key difference, at least in my opinion. Once he put in the hours, he basically dominated the scene in nearly every year or was a close second, while others went up and down the dominance hierarchy. Didn't Life win a GSL at 15 while still going to school? That shows it's possible. a sample size of 1 should be enough here given it's the same sample size of players that shows winning a premier tournament post-military is possible (only herO).
And that makes Life's achievement all the more impressive. But the observation also clearly explains why Serral exploded in 2018.
The overarching idea is to either ignore non-prime results or to include them. You could further penalize players with shorter careers as achieving results in only 1 or 2 years is easier to stay consistent over 10. Both are valid concepts.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On May 30 2025 17:17 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2025 06:18 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2025 04:43 PremoBeats wrote:On May 28 2025 16:21 Charoisaur wrote:
think Rogue’s claim is lessened by him coming back from military and not doing very much. If he stayed away, well he bowed out as an elite player. If he came back and emulated what say, herO has shown, I think making a return to the top after an enforced period away maybe enhances his claim.
Couldn't disagree more. It makes no sense to me that trying and failing to do something should punish you compared to not trying at all. He still has the same results as before so why should he be punished for trying to come back? And what difference does it make if the mediocre results are at the end or at the beginning of ones career, to me it's just as senseless as saying Serral should be punished for the mediocre first 5 years of his career. Do Ronaldo and Messi have less of a Goat claim now because they continue their careers in lesser leagues and can't compete at the very top anymore? On the topic: The Goat is still Serral to me, but if Maru wins EWC it will be him. If he does that he will have succeeded in every format and in every era, I don't think Serrals resumeé can compete with that Serral wasn't a full time pro before finishing school and that is the key difference, at least in my opinion. Once he put in the hours, he basically dominated the scene in nearly every year or was a close second, while others went up and down the dominance hierarchy. Didn't Life win a GSL at 15 while still going to school? That shows it's possible. a sample size of 1 should be enough here given it's the same sample size of players that shows winning a premier tournament post-military is possible (only herO). And that makes Life's achievement all the more impressive. But the observation also clearly explains why Serral exploded in 2018. The overarching idea is to either ignore non-prime results or to include them. You could further penalize players with shorter careers as achieving results in only 1 or 2 years is easier to stay consistent over 10. Both are valid concepts.
Metaphorically speaking, it’s as hard if not harder to stay at the top of the mountain than it is to stay there.
Nobody starts at the peak either (wordplay intended), they gotta climb it.
So I think you’ve scope to treat non-prime results slightly differently than post hitting the peak. All sorts of factors may slow your ascent if the summit that aren’t at your control as much, but once you do get there, outside of injuries or some other misfortune it’s really mostly motivation.
Someone like Serral can’t really help being Finnish, or finishing school. Whereas at the other end of things, someone like Innovation doesn’t really have mitigating reasons for his slumps and late-career mediocrity in the same way.
But I’d generally only consider this if other factors are close to begin with.
If player A has way bigger accomplishments and titles than player B, but player A had years of miserable results at the end of their career, and player B was pretty consistently good, I’d still go with player A easily.
Whereas if it’s a player B who has similar, if not better results, it would be something I’d factor in.
I think this can be lost in the sauce a bit. I’ll factor certain things in to break ties or close ones, that I wouldn’t necessarily use to actually formulate my ranking list. Which is basically thus:
1. Peak level, relative to competition at the time.
2. Weight of accomplishments and speed of achieving them.
3. Consistency of performance and longevity.
X. Other factors.
So basically, it’s weighted a bit rather than absolute. But I think you have to have been the outright best player at some period to be the GOAT. Somebody who was not, could still be the GOAT, if they were consistently top 4 for years and just won way more overall, while never being #1 in a particular era. And a player who won slightly less but was making Ro8/Ro4s all the time could jump above that person.
‘Other factors’ is a wildcard, dependent on what those are. Could be era, balance, non SC-related or whatever. They can circumvent the general hierarchy altogether, or be at the bottom of the hierarchy and used as a tiebreaker.
My crude system is, if you win in the upper category in the list, another claimant really has to gap you in the next down to overtake you. If it’s quite even in the upper categories, the player who’s notably stronger in the lower ones wins out.
Life is an interesting one within my system. let’s just assume he didn’t match fix and instead had an arm amputated or something.
It’s hard not to place him very high indeed, he ticks that ‘at some point best player’ box, he won big things. The hypothetical Life the ‘other factors’ metric. Or the actual Mvp as perhaps a better example.
With a shortened career, I think the hypothetical can beat the real, but it has to be close. If player A has pretty similar, but slightly worse results overall than player B, but a way shorter career that’s ended prematurity by some factor, there’s definitely an argument to give that duel to player A. Even if it’s possible they’d never win anything ever again if they’d continued their career.
But it has to be kinda close. Hypothetical Life maybe picks up a few more titles to push him above some others, but a Serral? Not impossible but a lot of things have to happen for that to happen.
I don’t discount the hypotheticals myself, but the more unknowns there are the less I do.
To give a more pertinent modern example, we could take Serral playing GSL consistently. For me, he probably wins one, it’s not impossible he doesn’t. That seems a reasonable probability, but I’d not consider it a sure thing.
Whereas some will claim he’d be cleaning house and winning 4/5 of the things if he’d committed. I wouldn’t rule that out either, but you start to get into a realm where the hypothetical is too big. Maybe he gets homesick and doesn’t show his best and gets demotivated. Maybe there’s a few seasons he is in great form but gets sniped with a great bit of preparation, a format that he’s not used to. Etc etc
Bit of a ramble but hey, I started, may as well finish :p
|
Great rambling, as most of the times when you post around here.
Funny what you wrote about Life... I am looking forward to your opinion about my new article in that regard, as most people even see it as blasphemous to even mention his name in the same sentence as the acronym GOAT.
|
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On June 01 2025 18:03 PremoBeats wrote:
Great rambling, as most of the times when you post around here.
Funny what you wrote about Life... I am looking forward to your opinion about my new article in that regard, as most people even see it as blasphemous to even mention his name in the same sentence as the acronym GOAT.
Cheers, I look forward to the read!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/dreamhack/dallas2025/dhdallas2025players.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/J3lwh-5_DM0/sddefault.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/517347301392646159/1374749870669430795/image.png?ex=68312956&is=682fd7d6&hm=b8d068892ae0763ee302205e1178b369b286729b0a20acd882b6948e68461ffc&)
