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As bad as this format is, at least we don't need to worry about the MLG extended series rule for the (likely) Oliveira vs. Maru rematch...
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Pretty massive game from Byun that. Staring defeat in the face and coming out with a very slow patient positional game after losing the back to back marine drop heavy games.
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And more standard, but another clinical game to take it to the decider. Impressive
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damn, not like this  live by the knife and die by the knife i guess
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another great series, love Byun but it's always good to see Oliveira's emotional triumphs. that last game was gutsy as hell.
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I have to say, this tournament has really delivered so far game-wise. so many closely fought 5-game series. it's clear that the players are all playing their hearts out here.
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Crazy how players are skipped to the final four just like that. What a weird format by ESL.
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Downside of splitting Group Stage into 2 groups - in the 5 games Oliveira has to play up to now, 2 vs ByuN and 2 vs Maru
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On August 16 2024 22:19 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 22:11 Zzzapper wrote:
Not a big fan of a format where you can go 3-2 and get no advantage other than seeding (compared to going 0-2) into a grueling single elimination bracket Why? That’s how it works in the GSL and most other sports - I will use the World Cup as an example since it’s the most popular sporting event on the planet. For most of the time GSL has been around if you go 4-0 in your GSL round of 16 group and someone goes 5-4, you have no advantage in the knockout ro8 other than seeding. The World Cup does not reward a team going 3-0’in the groups by starting in a later round versus a team that went 1-0-2 and advanced on tiebreakers. The difference is seeding. Literally the same concept.
It's not the same at all; most tournaments, be it in SC2 or sports, start with a group stage where scoring e.g. 3-2 will generally let you advance to the next round, whereas getting no wins means you're out. Even in your examples, the lower scoring team/player still is above 50%.
In this format, if you lose match 1, the 3 next matches only matter for seeding unless you manage to win all of them as well as the 4th one. To me, that makes the first 2 round of the lower bracket completely unexciting
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On August 16 2024 22:19 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 21:08 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2024 20:19 onPHYRE wrote:On August 16 2024 18:31 kajtarp wrote:
There was a thread few months ago about the double elimination format where i expressed my opinion heavily, why i dislike double elim. My opinion haven't changed. While for certain, double elim format results in more matches, which many of us certainly enjoys, it eliminates the suprise, the upset from tournaments. In a non double elim tournament Maru and Serral would be knocked out by now by Clem and Dark. They absolutely played well, they played their hearts out, they came up with good strategies and executions. They deserved their win. But with this format Serral and Maru can just look back the replays, and adjust their gameplay while they still have 2 lives left. I honestly does not see any of them not reaching the final four. Where they will have pretty good chances to play the finals despite their losses from yesterday and based on their replays they can just brainstorm and plug their holes. In a non double elim format they could still do it,yes. In the next tournament ... Everyone but Dark and Clem would be eliminated already… Showtime and SHIN wouldn’t even have played a game. What a terrible tournament that would be. You can’t even draw any conclusions from current results as players play differently if they know they have three lives (like they do here). They are more likely to save builds and take greater risks. The matches very likely play out differently. While the group stage is in a bracket format, it is still the group stage. The matches so far are equivalent to the group stage of the World Cup or the regular season of the NFL. Everyone battles for placement and once you get to the knockout bracket (the next stage), it is one and done. Quick example - Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia in 2022 and went on to win the World Cup. Essentially this group stage looks different, but it’s meant to accomplish the same thing. Seed players for the knockouts. That's true, but it's a bit lopsided. The seeding usually matters beyond the 1st/2nd place. If all this is about is the seeding, why does 3rd-16th all get unceremoniously dumped in the first round of the knockout? If you're going to treat it that way, why not do something like the WTL, where top spots of the group gets you into the final 4, but everything else still matters. 2nd place? Seed into Ro6, 3rd place? Ro8. You could easily make an interesting knockout bracket with seeding from the "group stage" as they are without dumping everybody into a brutal gauntlet regardless of their performance outside of top 2. It’s actually very similar to every other tournament once in the knockout. In the World Cup you don’t start in the semifinals just because you won your group. Regardless of how well you did in the group stage everyone starts in the same round. Here you actually have more credit for doing well in the group stage. The two winners advance to semis, as well as the 3rd place finisher. The 4th place finisher starts one round later in the knockout stages and 5-16 join the 2 late qualifiers to form the first round of the knockout. A WTL style bracket when its 1v1 and not multiple players playing multiple series would create far less games and give way too much of a reward based on seeding. There is no popular sport that does it that way for a reason. This is a weird group stage (you can lose twice, just like in a WC group) that goes into a relatively normal knockout bracket. Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 22:11 Zzzapper wrote:
Not a big fan of a format where you can go 3-2 and get no advantage other than seeding (compared to going 0-2) into a grueling single elimination bracket Why? That’s how it works in the GSL and most other sports - I will use the World Cup as an example since it’s the most popular sporting event on the planet. For most of the time GSL has been around if you go 4-0 in your GSL round of 16 group and someone goes 5-4, you have no advantage in the knockout ro8 other than seeding. The World Cup does not reward a team going 3-0’in the groups by starting in a later round versus a team that went 1-0-2 and advanced on tiebreakers. The difference is seeding. Literally the same concept.
Not true. If you score top 2 in a WC group you advance. If you score bottom 2, you go home. Here you win the group, you advance. You score 2nd, you get a last chance to advance. And otherwise absolutely everybody goes into a Bo3 gauntlet. And if they were 4 groups of 4 seeding into the top 8 or so, it'd make a bit more sense to have the rest all dumped down together. But it's an 8-player group where 3-8 are irrelevant.
Yes, there's some seeding happening, but the seeds seem quite irrelevant.
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Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I feel like almost everything tournament had has Hero playing reynor / several right after one another
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I like herO way more but he has to loose this unfortunately so that reynor can eliminate Serral lmao
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I love Reynor but in a tournament like this it's impossible for me to not cheer for Toss
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Its actually insane how good herO Looks vs non serral zergs.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
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This is incredibly clean by herO
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herO PvZ when he's on point is one of the most beautiful things in SC2 imo.
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On August 16 2024 23:31 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 22:19 onPHYRE wrote:On August 16 2024 21:08 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2024 20:19 onPHYRE wrote:On August 16 2024 18:31 kajtarp wrote:
There was a thread few months ago about the double elimination format where i expressed my opinion heavily, why i dislike double elim. My opinion haven't changed. While for certain, double elim format results in more matches, which many of us certainly enjoys, it eliminates the suprise, the upset from tournaments. In a non double elim tournament Maru and Serral would be knocked out by now by Clem and Dark. They absolutely played well, they played their hearts out, they came up with good strategies and executions. They deserved their win. But with this format Serral and Maru can just look back the replays, and adjust their gameplay while they still have 2 lives left. I honestly does not see any of them not reaching the final four. Where they will have pretty good chances to play the finals despite their losses from yesterday and based on their replays they can just brainstorm and plug their holes. In a non double elim format they could still do it,yes. In the next tournament ... Everyone but Dark and Clem would be eliminated already… Showtime and SHIN wouldn’t even have played a game. What a terrible tournament that would be. You can’t even draw any conclusions from current results as players play differently if they know they have three lives (like they do here). They are more likely to save builds and take greater risks. The matches very likely play out differently. While the group stage is in a bracket format, it is still the group stage. The matches so far are equivalent to the group stage of the World Cup or the regular season of the NFL. Everyone battles for placement and once you get to the knockout bracket (the next stage), it is one and done. Quick example - Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia in 2022 and went on to win the World Cup. Essentially this group stage looks different, but it’s meant to accomplish the same thing. Seed players for the knockouts. That's true, but it's a bit lopsided. The seeding usually matters beyond the 1st/2nd place. If all this is about is the seeding, why does 3rd-16th all get unceremoniously dumped in the first round of the knockout? If you're going to treat it that way, why not do something like the WTL, where top spots of the group gets you into the final 4, but everything else still matters. 2nd place? Seed into Ro6, 3rd place? Ro8. You could easily make an interesting knockout bracket with seeding from the "group stage" as they are without dumping everybody into a brutal gauntlet regardless of their performance outside of top 2. It’s actually very similar to every other tournament once in the knockout. In the World Cup you don’t start in the semifinals just because you won your group. Regardless of how well you did in the group stage everyone starts in the same round. Here you actually have more credit for doing well in the group stage. The two winners advance to semis, as well as the 3rd place finisher. The 4th place finisher starts one round later in the knockout stages and 5-16 join the 2 late qualifiers to form the first round of the knockout. A WTL style bracket when its 1v1 and not multiple players playing multiple series would create far less games and give way too much of a reward based on seeding. There is no popular sport that does it that way for a reason. This is a weird group stage (you can lose twice, just like in a WC group) that goes into a relatively normal knockout bracket. On August 16 2024 22:11 Zzzapper wrote:
Not a big fan of a format where you can go 3-2 and get no advantage other than seeding (compared to going 0-2) into a grueling single elimination bracket Why? That’s how it works in the GSL and most other sports - I will use the World Cup as an example since it’s the most popular sporting event on the planet. For most of the time GSL has been around if you go 4-0 in your GSL round of 16 group and someone goes 5-4, you have no advantage in the knockout ro8 other than seeding. The World Cup does not reward a team going 3-0’in the groups by starting in a later round versus a team that went 1-0-2 and advanced on tiebreakers. The difference is seeding. Literally the same concept. Not true. If you score top 2 in a WC group you advance. If you score bottom 2, you go home. Here you win the group, you advance. You score 2nd, you get a last chance to advance. And otherwise absolutely everybody goes into a Bo3 gauntlet. And if they were 4 groups of 4 seeding into the top 8 or so, it'd make a bit more sense to have the rest all dumped down together. But it's an 8-player group where 3-8 are irrelevant. Yes, there's some seeding happening, but the seeds seem quite irrelevant.
Sad that if Oliveira/herO get bopped again by Maru/Serral, they'll have almost nothing to show for making great lower bracket runs and playing their hearts out. I wouldn't mind the triple elim format if placement in the groups mattered a little more.
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I quite like the format, I thought it would be boring but I think it create good storylines for a world championship event
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Wtf herO. That was insane.
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EPT
