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On February 10 2024 05:25 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 05:06 Gescom wrote:On February 10 2024 04:52 JJH777 wrote:On February 10 2024 04:48 Gescom wrote:On February 10 2024 04:39 JJH777 wrote:On February 10 2024 04:14 Gescom wrote:On February 10 2024 04:01 JJH777 wrote:
It's crazy that Korea is going into the final day with a very legitimate shot at clutching out 8-9 spots in the top 12 despite no open bracket, a qualification format that was extremely biased against them, and the 3 best Koreans being lumped into a single group with the 2nd and 5th best EU players. With fairer groups, better qualifiers and the forms Clem/Reynor showed up in it seems like this could have ended with 11 Koreans and Serral. Erm... given the way the EU and NA qualifiers were completely open and allowed a ton of Koreans to stream thru the NA region, it was pretty much an open bracket that I don't think was biased against them at all. =/ Looking at the brackets, the only "upset" I can potentially see would be if Clem doesn't make it through tomorrow. Reynor's performance is disappointing, but its Group D. On the flip side, Scarlett, Oliveira or ShowTime could all make big moves tomorrow. EU server only getting 1 less slot than Korea/CN combined is blatant favoring of EU in the qualifiers. They weren't actual global qualifiers because KR was forced to play on EU. There is literally no chance EU end up with this many slots with a true global qualifier system. 10 players from Korea (discounting the fact that China bumped 2 of them) if you include GSL + Quals versus 8 players from Europe. And then 2 additional Koreans advanced thru NA. It could have been more where Creator and DRG went for but Scarlett and trigger played out of their minds. I fail to see the problem. There was basically zero EU/NA players playing in the KR quals, but tons of Koreans playing in the EU/NA quals. Zzz. If not for locals playing out of their mind (Skillous beating Classic), the tournament could have been 20/24 Koreans from the get-go. Do you honestly believe that if every qualifier was played on whatever server resulted in the two players having the closest ping we would have ended up with this lineup? I guess we just have fundamentally different opinions. I prefer region lock in general and I don't think the Koreans should have been allowed to play in NA at all, nevermind the question of ping. To me it's not "biased" at all. There were 10 slots for Koreans... go and qualify through them. Classic, Gumi, Bunny, Creator, DRG, etc, flunking out of KR and then EU and then scrambling for last minute slots in NA rubbed me the wrong way. From 2012 or whenever the first Kato was to 2023 Kato was the only premier global event that allowed full KR participation at the expense of other regions. It was nice having 1 skill based event per year instead of region based like all the other ones. Now that Kato changed to this format we don't have a single premier that puts skill as the most important factor for determining who qualifies.
The following things may shock you, since it seems you are not aware of it. You know...StarCraft...it is about the money. I know, we all want it to be about the competition and the prestige, but for some reason the organizers of the tournaments and the owners of the teams, they want to make money. I don't get it, but it seems they are not doing it for charity or for fun. And then there is one other thing you might not know...StarCraft is not doing that well the last couple of years, I doesn't get as much attention as it used to, other eSports have taken over it seems. Especially the korean scene does not really bother, the young koreans are more into Broodwar, LoL and maybe Dota.
So to get more viewers the organizers of the StarCraft tournaments thought it might be helpful to get some regional players from all over the world to maybe get some viewers who are interested to watch how their fellow countrymen are doing. And it showed that it did better than the tournaments where only Koreans started, viewership wise. And thus it made at least a bit more money than it would have otherwise.
So what they did is this: they installed a system where all the best, let's say ten, Koreans can qualify, but also some folks from all over the world. The downside is, that those koreans who would not really have an impact on the outcome of the tournament would not qualify. But sometimes there maybe a Korean not qualifying who would have had a shot at coming out of the groups. I know, that sucks for Classic. I hate it, too. He had his chance, but he missed it.
Now, sadly, all the competition is gone, it is, indeed, a four day long clown fiesta. And in the end some real inferior player will win a lot of money, all because they really ruined the competition (to a small degree in the group stages, the bracket will pretty much play out as if the REAL best players in the world would take part).
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^ Exactly why the format doesn't bother me at all and why I'm annoyed that people would make the comment in the first place.
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And you guys wonder why I complain about the Eurocentric bias that's in this community.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On February 10 2024 07:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
And you guys wonder why I complain about the Eurocentric bias that's in this community.
Ah I can only speak for TL but most seem to have a healthy appreciation for the scene and its various constituent parts.
Of the remainder I’d really not consider the Europhiles as more prominent in number or with more extreme bias than the good old-fashioned Korean elitists.
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On February 10 2024 08:26 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 07:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
And you guys wonder why I complain about the Eurocentric bias that's in this community. Ah I can only speak for TL but most seem to have a healthy appreciation for the scene and its various constituent parts. Of the remainder I’d really not consider the Europhiles as more prominent in number or with more extreme bias than the good old-fashioned Korean elitists.
I wouldn't give it a second thought if I didnt think there was a reasonable chance that the people making decisions at ESL or Blizzard have this bias as well.
So when I see people justifying it or even saying they WANT them to have it, that's what makes me feel like I need to say something in opposition to it.
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On February 10 2024 08:38 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 08:26 WombaT wrote:On February 10 2024 07:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
And you guys wonder why I complain about the Eurocentric bias that's in this community. Ah I can only speak for TL but most seem to have a healthy appreciation for the scene and its various constituent parts. Of the remainder I’d really not consider the Europhiles as more prominent in number or with more extreme bias than the good old-fashioned Korean elitists. I wouldn't give it a second thought if I didnt think there was a reasonable chance that the people making decisions at ESL or Blizzard have this bias as well. So when I see people justifying it or even saying they WANT them to have it, that's what makes me feel like I need to say something in opposition to it.
EU and Korea in SC2 are much closer than they are for example in LoL, yet the "EU bias" is much stronger in LoL, with EU having basically the same amount of Worlds slots as Korea and China, even though both of these regions are stronger. No one ever really complains about that.
The so-called "EU bias" people think they see in SC2 is just laughable. Because apparently every korean that didn't make it is apparently ten times better than any other player that has qualified, except for "lag". Must be quite the lag to close that skill-gap...
And even IF there was a fully-open, best ping per match qualifier, as soon as even one korean drops out, Mr. "Anti-EU" would probably then start bitching about the starting times or any other reason he could find.
Sorry, but when "EU bias" is just a synonym for "not everything is 100% perfectly aligned for koreans" it becomes a tad absurd...
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On February 10 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 08:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 10 2024 08:26 WombaT wrote:On February 10 2024 07:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
And you guys wonder why I complain about the Eurocentric bias that's in this community. Ah I can only speak for TL but most seem to have a healthy appreciation for the scene and its various constituent parts. Of the remainder I’d really not consider the Europhiles as more prominent in number or with more extreme bias than the good old-fashioned Korean elitists. I wouldn't give it a second thought if I didnt think there was a reasonable chance that the people making decisions at ESL or Blizzard have this bias as well. So when I see people justifying it or even saying they WANT them to have it, that's what makes me feel like I need to say something in opposition to it. EU and Korea in SC2 are much closer than they are for example in LoL, yet the "EU bias" is much stronger in LoL, with EU having basically the same amount of Worlds slots as Korea and China, even though both of these regions are stronger. No one ever really complains about that. The so-called "EU bias" people think they see in SC2 is just laughable. Because apparently every korean that didn't make it is apparently ten times better than any other player that has qualified, except for "lag". Must be quite the lag to close that skill-gap... And even IF there was a fully-open, best ping per match qualifier, as soon as even one korean drops out, Mr. "Anti-EU" would probably then start bitching about the starting times or any other reason he could find. Sorry, but when "EU bias" is just a synonym for "not everything is 100% perfectly aligned for koreans" it becomes a tad absurd...
Except I don't care what LoL does because I don't care about LoL. Your argument is flawed. Just because they do it, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
You're excusing the fact the bias exists just because it's not as bad as other people that do it more. Flawed logic, just looking for a way to justify behavior you know is inherently unfair.
If the best is truly being done, to promote the most fair and competitive tournament that's possible then cool. That's what I want. When it isn't because people would rather see more people from any country I don't care which, then that's what I have a problem with.
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On February 10 2024 09:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote:On February 10 2024 08:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 10 2024 08:26 WombaT wrote:On February 10 2024 07:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
And you guys wonder why I complain about the Eurocentric bias that's in this community. Ah I can only speak for TL but most seem to have a healthy appreciation for the scene and its various constituent parts. Of the remainder I’d really not consider the Europhiles as more prominent in number or with more extreme bias than the good old-fashioned Korean elitists. I wouldn't give it a second thought if I didnt think there was a reasonable chance that the people making decisions at ESL or Blizzard have this bias as well. So when I see people justifying it or even saying they WANT them to have it, that's what makes me feel like I need to say something in opposition to it. EU and Korea in SC2 are much closer than they are for example in LoL, yet the "EU bias" is much stronger in LoL, with EU having basically the same amount of Worlds slots as Korea and China, even though both of these regions are stronger. No one ever really complains about that. The so-called "EU bias" people think they see in SC2 is just laughable. Because apparently every korean that didn't make it is apparently ten times better than any other player that has qualified, except for "lag". Must be quite the lag to close that skill-gap... And even IF there was a fully-open, best ping per match qualifier, as soon as even one korean drops out, Mr. "Anti-EU" would probably then start bitching about the starting times or any other reason he could find. Sorry, but when "EU bias" is just a synonym for "not everything is 100% perfectly aligned for koreans" it becomes a tad absurd... Except I don't care what LoL does because I don't care about LoL. Your argument is flawed. Just because they do it, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You're excusing the fact the bias exists just because it's not as bad as other people that do it more. Flawed logic, just looking for a way to justify behavior you know is inherently unfair. If the best is truly being done, to promote the most fair and competitive tournament that's possible then cool. That's what I want. When it isn't because people would rather see more people from any country I don't care which, then that's what I have a problem with.
There is no real bias. The qualifiers were open and fair. Some koreans weren't good enough and/or had a bad day and didn't qualify. Done. Everything else is either a strong korea bias or an even stronger anti-EU bias.
Glad we could figure that out.
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On February 10 2024 09:22 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 09:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 10 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote:On February 10 2024 08:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 10 2024 08:26 WombaT wrote:On February 10 2024 07:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
And you guys wonder why I complain about the Eurocentric bias that's in this community. Ah I can only speak for TL but most seem to have a healthy appreciation for the scene and its various constituent parts. Of the remainder I’d really not consider the Europhiles as more prominent in number or with more extreme bias than the good old-fashioned Korean elitists. I wouldn't give it a second thought if I didnt think there was a reasonable chance that the people making decisions at ESL or Blizzard have this bias as well. So when I see people justifying it or even saying they WANT them to have it, that's what makes me feel like I need to say something in opposition to it. EU and Korea in SC2 are much closer than they are for example in LoL, yet the "EU bias" is much stronger in LoL, with EU having basically the same amount of Worlds slots as Korea and China, even though both of these regions are stronger. No one ever really complains about that. The so-called "EU bias" people think they see in SC2 is just laughable. Because apparently every korean that didn't make it is apparently ten times better than any other player that has qualified, except for "lag". Must be quite the lag to close that skill-gap... And even IF there was a fully-open, best ping per match qualifier, as soon as even one korean drops out, Mr. "Anti-EU" would probably then start bitching about the starting times or any other reason he could find. Sorry, but when "EU bias" is just a synonym for "not everything is 100% perfectly aligned for koreans" it becomes a tad absurd... Except I don't care what LoL does because I don't care about LoL. Your argument is flawed. Just because they do it, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You're excusing the fact the bias exists just because it's not as bad as other people that do it more. Flawed logic, just looking for a way to justify behavior you know is inherently unfair. If the best is truly being done, to promote the most fair and competitive tournament that's possible then cool. That's what I want. When it isn't because people would rather see more people from any country I don't care which, then that's what I have a problem with. There is no real bias. The qualifiers were open and fair. Some koreans weren't good enough and/or had a bad day and didn't qualify. Done. Everything else is either a strong korea bias or an even stronger anti-EU bias. Glad we could figure that out.
It's simply a desire to not want to see ridiculously lopsided groups like the ones we get in Katowice year after year after year. Why can't you see how obvious that is?
But I guess people like seeing lopsided groups as long as players they like get the benefits of them. You do you, if you ask me I think it's a shame that Reynor won't be playing in the next round because he got handed a massively more difficult group than Astrea or Skillous who are still competing for a third place spot. I think it's ridiculous that one of Clem, Oliveira or Bunny will get eliminated tommorrow when any one of them would have been competing for first place in Group A.
This isn't a one time issue with IEM Katowice. It's literally every year you can have these complaints. ESL thinks their qualifying system is fine, and I disagree, there's plenty of evidence to show that their flawed system is producing tournaments that aren't as good as they could be.
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Bisutopia19343 Posts
Oceanborn 7-0 ZvP and PvT record only going 5-4. I suspect there’s not a lot of love for this map by Protoss players.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On February 10 2024 08:38 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 08:26 WombaT wrote:On February 10 2024 07:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
And you guys wonder why I complain about the Eurocentric bias that's in this community. Ah I can only speak for TL but most seem to have a healthy appreciation for the scene and its various constituent parts. Of the remainder I’d really not consider the Europhiles as more prominent in number or with more extreme bias than the good old-fashioned Korean elitists. I wouldn't give it a second thought if I didnt think there was a reasonable chance that the people making decisions at ESL or Blizzard have this bias as well. So when I see people justifying it or even saying they WANT them to have it, that's what makes me feel like I need to say something in opposition to it.
If I had criticism on makeup, it’s that we used to have two world champs. Blizzcon went closer to an Olympic/WCG model, and was the one various other regions other than Korea got their places and representation. Katowice was more of the ‘best of the best’ with a bit less of that. Then when we contracted down to one WC, I guess Katowice somewhat had to fulfil both roles. But, now we’re back to two we haven’t seen those two WCs re-diversify if you get me.
If there’s a question mark for me, and I’ve raised it enough times without directly saying it, qualifying for Gamers8 2 to me is suspect. Retrospective qualification standards full stop for me is a bad thing, never mind doing it inconsistently.
Little refresher:
ESL announced the following qualification process for the tournament:
- 2023 ESL Masters Summer champion (DH Jonkoping): Serral
- 2023 ESL Masters Winter champion (DH Atlanta): Clem
- Top 4 from IEM Katowice 2024
- Top 4 from ESL Masters Spring (DH Dallas)
- Top 2 EPT Europe point standings
- Top 2 EPT Korea point standings
- Top 1 EPT Americas point standings
- Top 1 EPT Asia point standings
- 2 players from open qualifiers.
Now I’ve perused this, it immediately struck me as odd. Others are free to have a look and say The two Dreamhacks that have concluded give a single spot each, two European players. The Dreamhack that is yet to happen however, give 4? Why is that? A genuine question not a loaded one!
If the concluded Dreamhacks gave slots for the top 4, Serral would have double-qualified. Gumiho, Solar, Cure Reynor and Reynor join the fray.
Now let’s say hypothetically Serral does a Serral next Dreamhack Masters, one of Clem/Reynor join him in the finals, and say Heromarine and Oliveira have deep runs to the Ro4. How does that work? Oliveira and Heromarine get a ticket to Gamers8 for an identical placement on the same circuit as a bunch of those aforementioned Korean players.
How does double, triplicate qualification work? Etc. Why are EPT points so low in terms of spots given? I’ll go see if I can find out that specific thing, but it feels unwieldy, and also arbitrary in tournaments on the same exact circuit and format giving out different numbers of spots for this tournament.
As for groups, they’re just lopsided and yeah that’s a problem. But in a general competitive balance sense, incompetence rather than malice or bias. If they’re Eurocentric they’re doing a pretty bad job with Reynor being munched by the group of death and Clem quite conceivably losing tomorrow.
Unsure how the Chinese market feeds into ESL, if it does at all but Oliveira also being in a tough group isn’t great for that audience.
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What were the best games from today? I pretty much only saw both Maru's series and Reynor vs herO.
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On February 10 2024 10:37 JJH777 wrote:
What were the best games from today? I pretty much only saw both Maru's series and Reynor vs herO.
Clem vs Oliveira, Shin vs Clem, and Cure's games
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I'm going to feel really bad for whichever one of Showtime or herO gets eliminated tomorrow. They have both played so well this tournament, and they would definitely be going to the playoffs if they were in either group A or C.
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Group "D"eath, I think Maru/Dark would make it past the group stage regardless.
For the other players, honestly pretty unfortunate. Reynor, Showtime, and Hero are all amazing players. If they were put in any other groups, they would easily make it out (#1~3 of the group). But I do believe 2 of them would be eliminated.
The saddest would be if Hero got eliminated (the same goes for Showtime, but he is the most likely to get eliminated of the 5 great players in the group, of 6....), the only Toss that's even contending for potential top 4. Honestly, the game needs fixing in terms of balances.
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On February 10 2024 11:55 johnnyh123 wrote:
Group "D"eath, I think Maru/Dark would make it past the group stage regardless.
For the other players, honestly pretty unfortunate. Reynor, Showtime, and Hero are all amazing players. If they were put in any other groups, they would easily make it out (#1~3 of the group). But I do believe 2 of them would be eliminated.
The saddest would be if Hero got eliminated (the same goes for Showtime, but he is the most likely to get eliminated of the 5 great players in the group, of 6....), the only Toss that's even contending for potential top 4. Honestly, the game needs fixing in terms of balances.
Well good news / bad news is that exactly one of Hero/Showtime will qualify. Impossible for both, impossible for neither.
So i guess we have *2* protoss in ro12
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Group A
- 1st place locked in!
- Gumiho vs Scarlett on who takes the last spot
Group B
- Shin is guaranteed a playoff spot
- Cure just needs 1 map win to secure a playoff spot
- Clem just needs to win to secure spot
- Olivera / Bunny needs to win and hope results go their way
Group C
- Serral vs Byun on who gets first place.
- Astrea vs Skillous to decide who gets the final spot, Astrea just needs 1 map win.
Group D
- Here, the players tournament fates are in their own hands.
- Dark vs Maru on who gets first place.
- Hero vs Showtime on who gets the last playoff spot.
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On February 10 2024 05:57 CicadaSC wrote:
Serral 4-0 is not surprising. No disrespect to his opponents but it's clearly not the hardest group. Beating firefly astrea skillous kelazhur doesn't really say anything about his win potential. I'd expect any other top player to do the same. Heck. Reynor is already eliminated and I think he would've advanced from this group, maybe even in 1st. Wild.
On the other hand, would Serral have been in Reynors group, I am a 100% that Serral would have advanced there and like 80% he would have advanced in first place
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Canada8989 Posts
Hugh, I want both Scarlett and Gumi to win...
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Come on Gumi, go for the 110 scvs, make TY proud
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EPT
