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On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Damn great series
I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
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Canada8991 Posts
NGL, listening to the cast makes me worry we're on for a 4-1 Dark win full of stupid all-in.
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Clem played game 3 so well that it won him the final map as well; Serral looked significantly less sharp in that one. His mental game is obviously great but he did seem a bit shaken
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On December 18 2023 07:59 JoeCool wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote:
But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable To be fair, Clem played out of his mind. Even by top-tier standards this was the absolute highest level of play. Well deserved Clem, now please win this tournament!
Nah Clem always plays well against Serral (aka Serral slayer)
If anything this series shows how ridiculous late game terran is to kill. Clem had no business winning game 3 thx to mass mules
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On December 18 2023 08:02 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 07:59 tigera6 wrote:On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote:
But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year. what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage?
BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better.
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On December 18 2023 08:05 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:02 jack_less wrote:On December 18 2023 07:59 tigera6 wrote:On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote:
But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year. what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage? BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better.
Serral also didn't try much with Nydus and could have been more proactive about mining outlying bases faster. He also didn't use burrow as well as I've seen in some of his games. That's probably because of all the pressure Clem was putting on him, but I've seen Serral play the same style better.
Beating Solar, Serral, and Dark would be an insane run, when's the last time a non-Zerg won a tournament beating all the top Zerg back to back (Clem didn't play Reynor, but with the form Reynor showed this tournament that would've been a bop.)
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I do hope Rotti casts the finals
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On December 18 2023 08:05 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:02 jack_less wrote:On December 18 2023 07:59 tigera6 wrote:On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote:
But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year. what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage? BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better.
I'm not sure where I stand on the balance of TvZ - I think it's probably pretty good, but BL-infestor is not it in this patch. You give up all mobility to get an army that's... still worse than what Terran has.
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On December 18 2023 08:07 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:05 tigera6 wrote:On December 18 2023 08:02 jack_less wrote:On December 18 2023 07:59 tigera6 wrote:On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote:
But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year. what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage? BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better. Serral also didn't try much with Nydus and could have been more proactive about mining outlying bases faster. He also didn't use burrow as well as I've seen in some of his games. That's probably because of all the pressure Clem was putting on him, but I've seen Serral play the same style better. Beating Solar, Serral, and Dark would be an insane run, when's the last time a non-Zerg won a tournament beating all the top Zerg back to back (Clem didn't play Reynor, but with the form Reynor showed this tournament that would've been a bop.)
Maru won KoB2 going through Reynor Dark and Serral. And Clem wasnt putting the pressure as much as he was defending on 5-6 base and start massing Orbital, he only smash Serral attack and countering while taking more base after each failed attack from Serral.
On December 18 2023 08:08 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:05 tigera6 wrote:On December 18 2023 08:02 jack_less wrote:On December 18 2023 07:59 tigera6 wrote:On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote:
But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year. what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage? BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better. I'm not sure where I stand on the balance of TvZ - I think it's probably pretty good, but BL-infestor is not it in this patch. You give up all mobility to get an army that's... still worse than what Terran has.
I am not saying BLord - Infestor would be great against Clem, but I think its better than Ultra - Corruptors especially against the turtling style that Clem was playing in the last 2 games of this match.
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On December 18 2023 08:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Damn great series
I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him... Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades. Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
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On December 18 2023 08:00 TossHeroes wrote:
True “play like Clem”
Zerg is only playable if your name is Serral Yeah, and that's why we have Dark in the finals who did pretty handily beat another strong terran player.
As someone mentioned above, TvZ is at 35% winrate on this tournament after 43 games.
What do you want, 80% winrate for Zerg? Will this be enough, as 65% is too low for you obviously? 
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On December 18 2023 08:04 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 07:59 JoeCool wrote:On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote:
But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable To be fair, Clem played out of his mind. Even by top-tier standards this was the absolute highest level of play. Well deserved Clem, now please win this tournament! Nah Clem always plays well against Serral (aka Serral slayer) If anything this series shows how ridiculous late game terran is to kill. Clem had no business winning game 3 thx to mass mules
Clem did well against Serral a couple of years ago, not so much recently. Look at their head to head in 2023 (2022 as well), Serral won nearly every time.
And this is the first time Clem won an offline series of any kind between the two.
And as I said a moment ago, we wouldn't get games like that g3 without the threat of mule hammering any new base. Serral played that style of running armies into Clem specifically to avoid him securing a 6th base. The whole game plan is to win because you've mined 2 more bases than your opponent. If mules didn't work like that this style of game simply would not happen, and so many of the great late game TvZ's hinge on the same principle.
IMO, it makes late game matchups not involving terran less exciting that a base typically needs to be held for 4-5 minutes to have serious impact on the game.
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On December 18 2023 08:10 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:02 Hider wrote:On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Damn great series
I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him... Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades. Clem should be a strong favorite though. serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim. Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would likely have been a 60-40 favorite regardless.
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On December 18 2023 08:18 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:10 allmotor1 wrote:On December 18 2023 08:02 Hider wrote:On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Damn great series
I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him... Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades. Clem should be a strong favorite though. serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim. Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage. Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless.
yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark.
but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
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On December 18 2023 08:07 Penev wrote:
I do hope Rotti casts the finals
Anyone but Beuwolf
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On December 18 2023 08:20 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:18 Hider wrote:On December 18 2023 08:10 allmotor1 wrote:On December 18 2023 08:02 Hider wrote:On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Damn great series
I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him... Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades. Clem should be a strong favorite though. serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim. Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage. Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless. Serral is in his own tier. Clem is a tier below and Solar/Dark probably in half a tier below Clem. So there is at least 1½ tier in difference vs Serral and Dark. yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark. but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
Those numbers indicate the skill difference is quite significant. There is a bigger difference (pre-tournament) between number 1 and number 2 in the world (serral vs clem) than number 2 and number 10.
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On December 18 2023 08:20 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:18 Hider wrote:On December 18 2023 08:10 allmotor1 wrote:On December 18 2023 08:02 Hider wrote:On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Damn great series
I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him... Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades. Clem should be a strong favorite though. serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim. Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage. Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless. yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark. but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
Dark just like to play too wild that ended up in him falling behind and had to climb up the mountain later. Serral is more consistent and a better planner, but Dark has that surprise factor in every single game. Despite Clem winning a whole bunch of matches against Dark this year, a part of those match involve Dark doing a bane bust or Nydus which Clem held and win in 5 minutes.
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On December 18 2023 08:20 661 wrote:Anyone but Beuwolf
I don't mind any of the other casters but Rotti is the best of the lot for sure
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On December 18 2023 08:20 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2023 08:18 Hider wrote:On December 18 2023 08:10 allmotor1 wrote:On December 18 2023 08:02 Hider wrote:On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Damn great series
I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him... Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades. Clem should be a strong favorite though. serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim. Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage. Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless. yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark. but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
Dark at his peak, sure, but is Dark at his peak right now? I'd say he's been playing at around his recent level here, which is certainly high but not unbeatable the way he's looked at times.
His and Serral's match win rates the past 6 months are 77% and 91%, respectively. I would call that a lot better for Serral, it's less than half the losses
Still, knowing Dark, he could 4-1 Clem in a ridiculous manner
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EPT
