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HomeStory Cup XXII

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33592 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-15 12:31:15
December 15 2022 01:39 GMT
#1
[image loading]

(Wiki)HomeStory Cup XXII

Schedule (Dec 15-17 start time is 11:30 GMT (+00:00); Dec 18 is 10:30 GMT (+00:00))
  • Dec 15: RO32 Groups A & B
  • Dec 16: RO32 Groups C & D
  • Dec 17: Double elimination playoffs
  • Dec 18: Double elimination playoffs
Prize money: $26,000 total, $7,000 for first place
EPT points: 2540 points total, 500 points for first place (standings)
English Streams: TakeTV + RotterdaM

AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Aeromi
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
France14461 Posts
December 15 2022 11:49 GMT
#2
Hype!
https://twitter.com/DrAeromi | Updates on live tournaments: @StarCrafteSport
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1250 Posts
December 15 2022 13:06 GMT
#3
Switching to bo2 for the group stage was a great decision, hopefully we won't have (as many) ridiculously long days!
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-15 14:52:53
December 15 2022 14:52 GMT
#4
On December 15 2022 22:06 dysenterymd wrote:
Switching to bo2 for the group stage was a great decision, hopefully we won't have (as many) ridiculously long days!

I don't hate bo2 for groups, it obviously allows you to get through the large groups more quickly, but also makes the scheduling way more predictable because you don't have to factor in the chance of all clean sweeps or all full sets

and if 2 players go 1-1 and then face again later in the tournament that's kinda fun
"Expert" mods4ever.com
TossHeroes
Profile Joined February 2022
281 Posts
December 15 2022 15:47 GMT
#5
As long as Harstem makes it out I’ll be happy
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1250 Posts
December 15 2022 19:38 GMT
#6
Is Gerald the new Hurricane?
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
Azhrak
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland1198 Posts
December 15 2022 21:12 GMT
#7
The studio setup is very nice looking. Hoping for Serral to get the H5C.
starcraft2.fi
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4416 Posts
December 15 2022 21:17 GMT
#8
It's rather unfortunate that we only get 7 Koreans here and then 3 are put into the group with Serral...
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33592 Posts
December 15 2022 23:42 GMT
#9
Kelazhur needs to place top 12 or higher to surpass Cham in the LATAM standings now. You never know until it's over, but it's looking like Cham will be going to Katowice for now?
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
angry_maia
Profile Joined August 2020
327 Posts
December 16 2022 05:09 GMT
#10
Is this played on the patch? What about Katowice?
Kreuger
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden859 Posts
December 16 2022 09:02 GMT
#11
On December 16 2022 14:09 angry_maia wrote:
Is this played on the patch? What about Katowice?


The new patch is not used
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-16 18:25:28
December 16 2022 18:19 GMT
#12
So what the 1st tie-breaker in liquidpedia mean "Match wins amassed between the tied participants ('Mini-League')"? Actually what is a tie in final group ranking? Same map score and same match win?
mark_lenders
Profile Joined July 2019
74 Posts
December 16 2022 19:42 GMT
#13
liquipedia is showing the group standings by series wins. on reddit someone said map difference comes first
who's right? because it changes who qualified between cure and skillous
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
December 16 2022 21:16 GMT
#14
On December 17 2022 04:42 mark_lenders wrote:
liquipedia is showing the group standings by series wins. on reddit someone said map difference comes first
who's right? because it changes who qualified between cure and skillous

Cure and Skillous got the same map difference and map won, but the question then is it down to head-to-head first (which Cure win) or series score (which Skillous won). Apparently thats the way it is.
mark_lenders
Profile Joined July 2019
74 Posts
December 17 2022 07:59 GMT
#15
So is group B wrong then? Liquipedia shows Cham ahead of Nightmare with a worse nap score
TaKeTV
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany1200 Posts
December 17 2022 09:39 GMT
#16
Astrea vs Showtime / Solar vs Elazer
Clem vs Zoun / Gerald vs Scarlett
Reynor vs GuMiho / Heromarine vs Lambo (some Focus set here too for German audience)
Serral vs ByuN / Spirit vs Skillous

LB Round 2 Match X+Y
LB Round 2 Match X+Y
LB Round 3 Match X+Y

End
Commentator
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-17 09:43:02
December 17 2022 09:40 GMT
#17
On December 17 2022 16:59 mark_lenders wrote:
So is group B wrong then? Liquipedia shows Cham ahead of Nightmare with a worse nap score


Thats right, Liquidpedia ranking is wrong, they assume the match score is ahead of map score. If you check the VOD on TakeTV stream, they showed that Nightmare is ahead of Charm in the final group B ranking. Not that it matter much here since both of them did not make it to the next round.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
December 17 2022 14:24 GMT
#18
Clem is so good at tvp, his macro compleatly grinded Zoun down.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3128 Posts
December 17 2022 14:45 GMT
#19
On December 17 2022 23:24 Nakajin wrote:
Clem is so good at tvp, his macro compleatly grinded Zoun down.

Micro is good, too, he's sniped so many disruptors and Colossi this series. It does feel like Zoun is playing kind of wasteful, though, very "Korean macro Protoss."
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33592 Posts
December 17 2022 15:18 GMT
#20
On December 17 2022 23:45 Captain Peabody wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2022 23:24 Nakajin wrote:
Clem is so good at tvp, his macro compleatly grinded Zoun down.

Micro is good, too, he's sniped so many disruptors and Colossi this series. It does feel like Zoun is playing kind of wasteful, though, very "Korean macro Protoss."


For the alleged Disruptor guy, Zoun sure does lose a lot of Disruptors
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
December 17 2022 15:27 GMT
#21
Ruptor is about the hit, not the Ruptor lost.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
December 17 2022 15:28 GMT
#22
On December 17 2022 23:45 Captain Peabody wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2022 23:24 Nakajin wrote:
Clem is so good at tvp, his macro compleatly grinded Zoun down.

Micro is good, too, he's sniped so many disruptors and Colossi this series. It does feel like Zoun is playing kind of wasteful, though, very "Korean macro Protoss."


Well I'll be damned, AlphaX ftw. Clem took this one hard too it seems like.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
December 17 2022 15:37 GMT
#23
The most glaring thing was the Libs count, Clem was able to get up to 10-12 Libs with range in the first 2 game and compact and grind Zoun army into dust. In the later game, Zoun was trading non-stop and took out the Libs before they reach that critical mass, and harass Clem econ enough that he couldnt make lots of Libs.
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8246 Posts
December 17 2022 17:18 GMT
#24
Haha WP by Neku and Elazer. That was cool.
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 17 2022 17:54 GMT
#25
widow mines do too much friendly fire damage lol, they should cut it in half
"Expert" mods4ever.com
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4416 Posts
December 17 2022 18:02 GMT
#26
On December 18 2022 02:54 Die4Ever wrote:
widow mines do too much friendly fire damage lol, they should cut it in half


If they did that the ghost change would actually be somewhat acceptable. If the ghost change was live those 2 ovies get away which would be dumb.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12911 Posts
December 17 2022 18:05 GMT
#27
ByuN toying with his food, impressive play
WriterMaru
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-17 18:08:01
December 17 2022 18:06 GMT
#28
On December 18 2022 03:02 JJH777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2022 02:54 Die4Ever wrote:
widow mines do too much friendly fire damage lol, they should cut it in half


If they did that the ghost change would actually be somewhat acceptable. If the ghost change was live those 2 ovies get away which would be dumb.

and why are burrowed widow mines so much more easily visible than burrow-moving infestors lol
"Expert" mods4ever.com
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4416 Posts
December 17 2022 18:25 GMT
#29
I want to be happy for Byun but I'm afraid if he wins this it will make Blizzard more likely to move forward with the patch as is before IEM.
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
December 17 2022 18:41 GMT
#30
Byun screwed up the 2 base all-in, he splited the army and his position wasnt great enough. Bunny would do much better in the same position.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12911 Posts
December 17 2022 18:59 GMT
#31
ByuN on fire, impressive series!
Zoun even beat Clem, KR players results are better than usual for HSC, they kept the momentum from Atlanta it feels like
WriterMaru
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
December 17 2022 19:00 GMT
#32
On December 18 2022 03:59 Poopi wrote:
ByuN on fire, impressive series!
Zoun even beat Clem, KR players results are better than usual for HSC, they kept the momentum from Atlanta it feels like

And thats without Maru-herO-Dark-Bunny
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
December 17 2022 19:33 GMT
#33
I don't follow SC2 really because I'm BW boy but man that guy ByuN is something else... Been a fan since he won his GSL and Global finals same year. Funny after seeing his reaction that he matched vs. Serral, that he went on and knocked him out to losers bracket. Let's go One Man Army!
sunbeams are never made like me...
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
December 17 2022 20:58 GMT
#34
Was that Scarlett ceiling at this point in time? Would she ever gotten back to winning global tournament again? I mean she was in good position in several game but just couldnt make the right adjustment in-game to kill the opponent. The caster was pointing on how she got a huge bank but ignored the tech, or missing lavar....
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3599 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-17 21:35:12
December 17 2022 21:35 GMT
#35
Jesus, it's the third day of HSC and this thread is at page 2. Happy for Showtime, finally a good run again.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4416 Posts
December 17 2022 21:38 GMT
#36
Kinda feels like the Zergs stopped practicing when the patch was announced to make it more likely to go through.
QOGQOG
Profile Joined July 2019
834 Posts
December 17 2022 22:28 GMT
#37
On December 18 2022 06:35 virpi wrote:
Jesus, it's the third day of HSC and this thread is at page 2. Happy for Showtime, finally a good run again.

Yeah, a little sad. The round robins weren't too interesting, but today had some solid series.
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 17 2022 22:56 GMT
#38
oh come on, they're showing Serral again? I wanted to see Gumiho vs Clem
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-17 23:01:27
December 17 2022 23:00 GMT
#39
I feel like Showtime really should have put two and two togheter after he probe scouted.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 17 2022 23:07 GMT
#40
lol Gumi vs Clem is still on game 1
"Expert" mods4ever.com
SEB2610
Profile Joined June 2022
59 Posts
December 17 2022 23:21 GMT
#41
Banelings are the counter to archons
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
December 17 2022 23:34 GMT
#42
super interesting to hear Psistorm offered to fund MaxPax a trip to GSL and he didn't even respond
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 17 2022 23:35 GMT
#43
On December 18 2022 08:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:
super interesting to hear Psistorm offered to fund MaxPax a trip to GSL and he didn't even respond

not that surprising, he doesn't seem to want to show his face
"Expert" mods4ever.com
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
December 17 2022 23:40 GMT
#44
On December 18 2022 08:35 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2022 08:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:
super interesting to hear Psistorm offered to fund MaxPax a trip to GSL and he didn't even respond

not that surprising, he doesn't seem to want to show his face


I mean, I don't know about you, but if I didn't even RESPOND to my boss about a work opportunity they knew I didn't want to do I'd be pretty fucked
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 17 2022 23:41 GMT
#45
On December 18 2022 08:40 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2022 08:35 Die4Ever wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:
super interesting to hear Psistorm offered to fund MaxPax a trip to GSL and he didn't even respond

not that surprising, he doesn't seem to want to show his face


I mean, I don't know about you, but if I didn't even RESPOND to my boss about a work opportunity they knew I didn't want to do I'd be pretty fucked

haha true
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 17 2022 23:48 GMT
#46
wish we had seen that crazy Gumiho vs Clem game lol
"Expert" mods4ever.com
AzAlexZ
Profile Joined September 2016
Australia3303 Posts
December 18 2022 01:16 GMT
#47
On December 18 2022 08:40 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2022 08:35 Die4Ever wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:
super interesting to hear Psistorm offered to fund MaxPax a trip to GSL and he didn't even respond

not that surprising, he doesn't seem to want to show his face


I mean, I don't know about you, but if I didn't even RESPOND to my boss about a work opportunity they knew I didn't want to do I'd be pretty fucked

yeah idk what the deal is here...
I'm not one to promote unwarranted rumors, but like what's his deal? Seems pretty suspicious to only want to compete online and not show up offline

anyways I'll stop with this, hope we get to see him soon
Faker is the GOAT!
TossHeroes
Profile Joined February 2022
281 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 02:37:45
December 18 2022 02:37 GMT
#48
On December 18 2022 10:16 AzAlexZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2022 08:40 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:35 Die4Ever wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:
super interesting to hear Psistorm offered to fund MaxPax a trip to GSL and he didn't even respond

not that surprising, he doesn't seem to want to show his face


I mean, I don't know about you, but if I didn't even RESPOND to my boss about a work opportunity they knew I didn't want to do I'd be pretty fucked

yeah idk what the deal is here...
I'm not one to promote unwarranted rumors, but like what's his deal? Seems pretty suspicious to only want to compete online and not show up offline

anyways I'll stop with this, hope we get to see him soon


I’m okay with maxpax only competing online.

No need to appear offline just to “please” the haters.

Pretty sure there are lots of personal factors / reasons for his decision Which is pretty much none of our business
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3128 Posts
December 18 2022 15:06 GMT
#49
Zoun vs Serral is a great series so far, I love how fun and diverse PvZ has become
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3128 Posts
December 18 2022 15:07 GMT
#50
On December 18 2022 11:37 TossHeroes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2022 10:16 AzAlexZ wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:40 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:35 Die4Ever wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:
super interesting to hear Psistorm offered to fund MaxPax a trip to GSL and he didn't even respond

not that surprising, he doesn't seem to want to show his face


I mean, I don't know about you, but if I didn't even RESPOND to my boss about a work opportunity they knew I didn't want to do I'd be pretty fucked

yeah idk what the deal is here...
I'm not one to promote unwarranted rumors, but like what's his deal? Seems pretty suspicious to only want to compete online and not show up offline

anyways I'll stop with this, hope we get to see him soon


I’m okay with maxpax only competing online.

No need to appear offline just to “please” the haters.

Pretty sure there are lots of personal factors / reasons for his decision Which is pretty much none of our business

yeah also IMO I would rather have a fun mystery in SC2 than another "normal" player
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 18 2022 15:18 GMT
#51
awesome game from Zoun, wow
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55571 Posts
December 18 2022 15:48 GMT
#52
Serral just wasn't in the Zoun
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 18 2022 15:48 GMT
#53
good shit Zoun
"Expert" mods4ever.com
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1250 Posts
December 18 2022 15:51 GMT
#54
Wow, great play by Zoun. No 5peat for Serral, I'm sure he'll come back strong for Katowice though.
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
December 18 2022 15:52 GMT
#55
To be honest, Serral ZvP hasnt look as amazing as before, he lost games here and there to Protoss because he was too aggressive and not making the right read. But Zoun play solid and hit all the timing so kudos to him.
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4416 Posts
December 18 2022 15:57 GMT
#56
Wow Zoun. I'll need to go back and watch that series for sure.
tskarzyn
Profile Joined July 2010
United States516 Posts
December 18 2022 16:05 GMT
#57
On December 18 2022 10:16 AzAlexZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2022 08:40 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:35 Die4Ever wrote:
On December 18 2022 08:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:
super interesting to hear Psistorm offered to fund MaxPax a trip to GSL and he didn't even respond

not that surprising, he doesn't seem to want to show his face


I mean, I don't know about you, but if I didn't even RESPOND to my boss about a work opportunity they knew I didn't want to do I'd be pretty fucked

yeah idk what the deal is here...
I'm not one to promote unwarranted rumors, but like what's his deal? Seems pretty suspicious to only want to compete online and not show up offline

anyways I'll stop with this, hope we get to see him soon


It's not proof of anything, but it certainly increases the chances that he is doing something that gives him an edge in online games. As long as a system can be abused, there will be people who abuse it.
Coffeeling
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Finland250 Posts
December 18 2022 16:36 GMT
#58
Recall is a fun and fair ability.
Squee
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4416 Posts
December 18 2022 16:54 GMT
#59
On December 19 2022 01:36 Coffeeling wrote:
Recall is a fun and fair ability.


Mad Serral/Clem fan? Protoss has won so many tournaments the past few years I'm sure they are broken.
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 17:28:10
December 18 2022 17:27 GMT
#60
upside screen seems like way too big of a handicap lol, just look at the supply!
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 17:32:59
December 18 2022 17:32 GMT
#61
On December 19 2022 02:27 Die4Ever wrote:
upside screen seems like way too big of a handicap lol, just look at the supply!


One base mothership will turn it arround easy
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12911 Posts
December 18 2022 17:57 GMT
#62
Serral lost to ByuN and Zoun what? They really want that patch to go through?
WriterMaru
TossHeroes
Profile Joined February 2022
281 Posts
December 18 2022 18:59 GMT
#63
Astrea keeping the NA dream alive!

Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12911 Posts
December 18 2022 19:01 GMT
#64
ByuN destroying both Serral and Reynor, is it 2016 again?
WriterMaru
BelethielQT
Profile Joined August 2022
90 Posts
December 18 2022 19:03 GMT
#65
On December 19 2022 04:01 Poopi wrote:
ByuN destroying both Serral and Reynor, is it 2016 again?


Where was the destroying Part?
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17729 Posts
December 18 2022 19:12 GMT
#66
meh that game was over when the banelings hit the wall
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16062 Posts
December 18 2022 19:15 GMT
#67
On December 19 2022 04:03 BelethielQT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 04:01 Poopi wrote:
ByuN destroying both Serral and Reynor, is it 2016 again?


Where was the destroying Part?

and I must have missed the part in 2016 when ByuN was destroying Serral and Reynor
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
ZeroByte13
Profile Joined March 2022
795 Posts
December 18 2022 19:26 GMT
#68
Byun was destroying them so hard that you didn't even hear about them at that time.
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 19:52:01
December 18 2022 19:51 GMT
#69
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12911 Posts
December 18 2022 19:54 GMT
#70
It’s Reynor’s HSC to lose now that both Serral and Clem are eliminated!
Hopefully Astrea or ByuN give him a run for his money
WriterMaru
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16062 Posts
December 18 2022 19:56 GMT
#71
On December 19 2022 04:51 tigera6 wrote:
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.

there was no reason to buff Zerg anyway even before this tournament. Another Zerg winner won't change anything. Certain people just want Zerg to dominate
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 20:05:44
December 18 2022 20:05 GMT
#72
On December 19 2022 04:56 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 04:51 tigera6 wrote:
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.

there was no reason to buff Zerg anyway even before this tournament. Another Zerg winner won't change anything. Certain people just want Zerg to dominate


I feel like at this point it's just straight up hubris to imagine anyone care enough about SC2 esport to organize a conspiracy about it.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Ciaus_Dronu
Profile Joined June 2017
South Africa1848 Posts
December 18 2022 20:11 GMT
#73
A KR Terran, EU Zerg and NA Protoss as the last three players.
A fitting final bracket.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16062 Posts
December 18 2022 20:19 GMT
#74
On December 19 2022 05:05 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 04:56 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:51 tigera6 wrote:
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.

there was no reason to buff Zerg anyway even before this tournament. Another Zerg winner won't change anything. Certain people just want Zerg to dominate


I feel like at this point it's just straight up hubris to imagine anyone care enough about SC2 esport to organize a conspiracy about it.

the people making money from SC2 esport certainly care about it
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Coffeeling
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Finland250 Posts
December 18 2022 20:47 GMT
#75
On December 19 2022 01:54 JJH777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 01:36 Coffeeling wrote:
Recall is a fun and fair ability.


Mad Serral/Clem fan? Protoss has won so many tournaments the past few years I'm sure they are broken.


Nah, just not a fan of Recall and never have been. Being able to do a full commit and just press undo for free is a disgusting play pattern, regardless of the power level of the faction.

Like in the game that prompted the comment, Terran is using a split high mobility army to try to attack on two sides. Toss is not playing a high mobility army in any way, and can just defend the first push with the full army and recall to delete the other strike force, and has that ability for free because ???

There's been more than one time that I've seen Toss forces get caught in brilliant pincers that'd lose T or Z the game then and there, and they just pressed undo because losing the game for a giant misplay is for bugs and humans.

It's a similar dynamic with Adepts, where big Adept forces can just issue threats without any real commitment on their part and those threats have to be treated seriously. Fucked up gameplay pattern. The power level of Adepts is fine, but the ensuing gameplay is less entertaining than with T or Z's traditional movement based dart in, dart out type pressure.
Squee
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9296 Posts
December 18 2022 21:13 GMT
#76
Holy sheeet Astrea actually made it to the finals niiice
You're now breathing manually
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12911 Posts
December 18 2022 21:16 GMT
#77
Incredible run from Astrea, and that last game versus ByuN was highly entertaining!
WriterMaru
Coffeeling
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Finland250 Posts
December 18 2022 21:35 GMT
#78
I'm a simple man and enjoy watching people playing ling+muta with the yellow psi alien pieces.
Squee
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1250 Posts
December 18 2022 22:56 GMT
#79
Felt like Astrea had lots of missed opportunities that series, still an amazing run. Also first championship for Reynor in a while
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4416 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 23:59:08
December 18 2022 23:14 GMT
#80
On December 19 2022 05:05 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 04:56 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:51 tigera6 wrote:
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.

there was no reason to buff Zerg anyway even before this tournament. Another Zerg winner won't change anything. Certain people just want Zerg to dominate


I feel like at this point it's just straight up hubris to imagine anyone care enough about SC2 esport to organize a conspiracy about it.


I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think the issue is that the people balancing the game and organizing events for it want to believe that Serral is the best person to ever touch the game and acknowledging that Zerg has spent the last few years as the best race weakens his claim to that title dramatically. So rather than acknowledging that they just say Zerg is fine or even underpowered and Serral and the all other Zergs that have won events are just that much better than T/P players. Which leads to balance patches like this one.
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
571 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 23:40:02
December 18 2022 23:38 GMT
#81
On December 19 2022 08:14 JJH777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 05:05 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:56 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:51 tigera6 wrote:
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.

there was no reason to buff Zerg anyway even before this tournament. Another Zerg winner won't change anything. Certain people just want Zerg to dominate


I feel like at this point it's just straight up hubris to imagine anyone care enough about SC2 esport to organize a conspiracy about it.


I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think the issue is that the people balancing the game and organizing events for it want to believe that Serral is the best person to ever touch the game and acknowledging that Zerg has spent the last few years weakens his claim to that title dramatically. So rather than acknowledging that they just say Zerg is fine or even underpowered and Serral and the all other Zergs that have won events are just that much better than T/P players. Which leads to balance patches like this one.


7/14 premier tournament wins from five different Zergs, and 13/28 finalists this year. And somehow this isn't enough--amazing.
Antithesis
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1236 Posts
December 18 2022 23:49 GMT
#82
Amazing tournament, as always! Congratulations to Reynor and many thanks to TakeTV.

They really succeeded in crafting a beautiful cozy winter atmosphere.
Mutation complete.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-19 00:36:54
December 19 2022 00:34 GMT
#83
On December 19 2022 05:19 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 05:05 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:56 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:51 tigera6 wrote:
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.

there was no reason to buff Zerg anyway even before this tournament. Another Zerg winner won't change anything. Certain people just want Zerg to dominate


I feel like at this point it's just straight up hubris to imagine anyone care enough about SC2 esport to organize a conspiracy about it.

the people making money from SC2 esport certainly care about it


But who's that in 2022 really? Obviously, you have the casters and the players but outside of that? There's Alex007 at ESL and maybe one or two persons around him, the rest of the production guys would work there anyway on other projects. Maybe management at ESL care a bit about SC2 numbers, but it's definitely just another contract amongst their long list of product.
Then you have the GSL and the Afreeca TV staff and the WTL guys, but it's not them you are talking about. And we are left with...a couple of team managers (maybe) and the AlphaX guys and that's it?

And finally Blizzard of course, after all, they are the ones pumping money in the scene. Well, they haven't put out a SC2 product in half a decade, most if not all of the RTS dev team is out, and they just did their first patch in years that was essentially crowd sourced to the community. It's a bit silly to imagine that anyone working there has the game knowledge or is allowed the time to analyze how a 0.33 speed upgrade to the BL will play out in relation to a sensor tower vision radius nerf.

So we're pretty much just accusing Alex007, someone who has dedicated a decade of his life to doing Ukranian rebroadcast and organizing the eastern-european scene, of having come into the job at ESL with the secret plan (or secret order whatever) to craft an elaborate balance patch so that one of two players (Serral or Reynor, but also not Dark, Solar or Ragnarok) would win the next world championship, in order to maybe marginally increase viewership numbers in order to maybe convince an executive at Activision to resign on a financing deal for 23-24.

Or, we could choose the much more uplifting option that a bunch of people who really, really, like Starcraft and wish it continue, put a bunch of ideas together and convinced Blizz to actually put it into the game. Maybe it'll be good for the balance, maybe not but I find it a bit sad to throw them under the bus out of nowhere.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12911 Posts
December 19 2022 01:22 GMT
#84
On December 19 2022 09:34 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 05:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 19 2022 05:05 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:56 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:51 tigera6 wrote:
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.

there was no reason to buff Zerg anyway even before this tournament. Another Zerg winner won't change anything. Certain people just want Zerg to dominate


I feel like at this point it's just straight up hubris to imagine anyone care enough about SC2 esport to organize a conspiracy about it.

the people making money from SC2 esport certainly care about it


But who's that in 2022 really? Obviously, you have the casters and the players but outside of that? There's Alex007 at ESL and maybe one or two persons around him, the rest of the production guys would work there anyway on other projects. Maybe management at ESL care a bit about SC2 numbers, but it's definitely just another contract amongst their long list of product.
Then you have the GSL and the Afreeca TV staff and the WTL guys, but it's not them you are talking about. And we are left with...a couple of team managers (maybe) and the AlphaX guys and that's it?

And finally Blizzard of course, after all, they are the ones pumping money in the scene. Well, they haven't put out a SC2 product in half a decade, most if not all of the RTS dev team is out, and they just did their first patch in years that was essentially crowd sourced to the community. It's a bit silly to imagine that anyone working there has the game knowledge or is allowed the time to analyze how a 0.33 speed upgrade to the BL will play out in relation to a sensor tower vision radius nerf.

So we're pretty much just accusing Alex007, someone who has dedicated a decade of his life to doing Ukranian rebroadcast and organizing the eastern-european scene, of having come into the job at ESL with the secret plan (or secret order whatever) to craft an elaborate balance patch so that one of two players (Serral or Reynor, but also not Dark, Solar or Ragnarok) would win the next world championship, in order to maybe marginally increase viewership numbers in order to maybe convince an executive at Activision to resign on a financing deal for 23-24.

Or, we could choose the much more uplifting option that a bunch of people who really, really, like Starcraft and wish it continue, put a bunch of ideas together and convinced Blizz to actually put it into the game. Maybe it'll be good for the balance, maybe not but I find it a bit sad to throw them under the bus out of nowhere.

I did not look at each of the pages of the PTR topic about the latest balance patch, but iirc the gameheart mod dev (who was not part of Blizzard but took some functions in it with his work) said that the balance council (thus the players from the foreign community) did not know about all the proposed changes in that PTR patch.
In that case, I think it is a similar case as the mapmakers community: some of them despise the players / don’t wanna take balance into account when making maps.

Ultimately though, you are right about the uplifting part: we should be very very very thankful (even if thanksgiving is done for this year) about StarCraft 2 still getting support after so many years.
On the other hand, the PTR / balance topic got way more posts than this awesome HSC on TLnet, so even though we should stay positive, having some negative reactions to things like patches and stuff means people still care about the game, which is a good thing .

There are more appropriate places to discuss these things than this topic I guess, but I am not sure we have the luxury to do that (nor the need?) with that level of activity?

Either way, although I only watched on Saturday and Sunday after the football World Cup, this tournament was very entertaining.
ByuN confirmed his good form (beating Maru was not a fluke after all ) and once again that he is a « wolf in sheep clothing », while the Protosses such as Zoun and Astrea were brilliant!

Ggs
WriterMaru
BelethielQT
Profile Joined August 2022
90 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-19 01:38:43
December 19 2022 01:30 GMT
#85

BelethielQT
Profile Joined August 2022
90 Posts
December 19 2022 01:36 GMT
#86
On December 19 2022 10:30 BelethielQT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 08:14 JJH777 wrote:
On December 19 2022 05:05 Nakajin wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:56 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 19 2022 04:51 tigera6 wrote:
Now Byun and Astrea need to fight it out and then lose to Reynor so that Zerg has no excuse to roll out the patch at least until IEM is finished.

there was no reason to buff Zerg anyway even before this tournament. Another Zerg winner won't change anything. Certain people just want Zerg to dominate


I feel like at this point it's just straight up hubris to imagine anyone care enough about SC2 esport to organize a conspiracy about it.


I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think the issue is that the people balancing the game and organizing events for it want to believe that Serral is the best person to ever touch the game and acknowledging that Zerg has spent the last few years as the best race weakens his claim to that title dramatically. So rather than acknowledging that they just say Zerg is fine or even underpowered and Serral and the all other Zergs that have won events are just that much better than T/P players. Which leads to balance patches like this one.


Mad serral hater

TossHeroes
Profile Joined February 2022
281 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-19 02:33:49
December 19 2022 02:28 GMT
#87
Of course the usual terran fan boys complaining about balance in a home story cup thread instead or the balance thread

I did enjoy Astrea rekting Byun though in clown feata style

NA holds against Korea
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
571 Posts
December 19 2022 04:05 GMT
#88
On December 19 2022 11:28 TossHeroes wrote:
Of course the usual terran fan boys complaining about balance in a home story cup thread instead or the balance thread

I did enjoy Astrea rekting Byun though in clown feata style

NA holds against Korea

Since you call people fanboys regardless of the thread, I'm not sure why anyone should care.
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3483 Posts
December 19 2022 04:14 GMT
#89
Had to watch the Grand Final through VOD, but Reynor just out-micro Astrea so hard in the entire series. Reynor lings were picking up unit after unit for free and the Muta ran circle around the slow Carriers in that game 4. 5-6 Phoenix would shut down the Muta but Astrea kept building and losing Carriers was not great.

On December 19 2022 11:28 TossHeroes wrote:
Of course the usual terran fan boys complaining about balance in a home story cup thread instead or the balance thread

I did enjoy Astrea rekting Byun though in clown feata style

NA holds against Korea

Typica Toss and Serral fanboy response.

dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1250 Posts
December 19 2022 15:58 GMT
#90
On December 19 2022 13:14 tigera6 wrote:
Had to watch the Grand Final through VOD, but Reynor just out-micro Astrea so hard in the entire series. Reynor lings were picking up unit after unit for free and the Muta ran circle around the slow Carriers in that game 4. 5-6 Phoenix would shut down the Muta but Astrea kept building and losing Carriers was not great.

Yeah, Astrea seemed to get the good end of the build order RPS but just couldn't execute, probably a mix of nerves and tiredness from playing so many games. With the rate he's improving and his current level I do feel like he has the capacity to win an international event at some point though, he's arguably the #2 Toss right now though still obviously far behind herO.
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12911 Posts
December 19 2022 16:08 GMT
#91
On December 20 2022 00:58 dysenterymd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 13:14 tigera6 wrote:
Had to watch the Grand Final through VOD, but Reynor just out-micro Astrea so hard in the entire series. Reynor lings were picking up unit after unit for free and the Muta ran circle around the slow Carriers in that game 4. 5-6 Phoenix would shut down the Muta but Astrea kept building and losing Carriers was not great.

Yeah, Astrea seemed to get the good end of the build order RPS but just couldn't execute, probably a mix of nerves and tiredness from playing so many games. With the rate he's improving and his current level I do feel like he has the capacity to win an international event at some point though, he's arguably the #2 Toss right now though still obviously far behind herO.

You are hurting a lot of MaxPax fans feelings right now, even though you are probably right about Astrea being #2 toss
WriterMaru
tlnetuser108
Profile Joined October 2022
83 Posts
December 24 2022 16:35 GMT
#92
I can gladly say that after this latest HSC, the only non-Koream contender for GOAT is Reynor. It always has been. I honestly can't think of any other non-Korean that can be considered GOAT... not even Clem whos the 2nd best non-Korean after Reynor.
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5219 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-26 19:30:16
December 26 2022 19:29 GMT
#93
On December 25 2022 01:35 tlnetuser108 wrote:
I can gladly say that after this latest HSC, the only non-Koream contender for GOAT is Reynor. It always has been. I honestly can't think of any other non-Korean that can be considered GOAT... not even Clem whos the 2nd best non-Korean after Reynor.


Stephano is the best ever for non-Koreans, there is no question. He won tournaments against the very best Koreans when the Team Houses were still open and redefined the meta. Winning against Koreans today is lesser achievement.

Serral is #2.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-27 01:39:32
December 27 2022 01:39 GMT
#94
On December 27 2022 04:29 BronzeKnee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2022 01:35 tlnetuser108 wrote:
I can gladly say that after this latest HSC, the only non-Koream contender for GOAT is Reynor. It always has been. I honestly can't think of any other non-Korean that can be considered GOAT... not even Clem whos the 2nd best non-Korean after Reynor.


Stephano is the best ever for non-Koreans, there is no question. He won tournaments against the very best Koreans when the Team Houses were still open and redefined the meta. Winning against Koreans today is lesser achievement.

Serral is #2.


Stephano never won tournaments against the very best Koreans and lost to other European all the times. At best he won one trophy beating beating MC and Alicia just as they were about to fade into obscurity with the Kespa switch.

Serral litteraly went 8 months without losing a series.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1250 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-27 08:21:14
December 27 2022 08:19 GMT
#95
On December 27 2022 10:39 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2022 04:29 BronzeKnee wrote:
On December 25 2022 01:35 tlnetuser108 wrote:
I can gladly say that after this latest HSC, the only non-Koream contender for GOAT is Reynor. It always has been. I honestly can't think of any other non-Korean that can be considered GOAT... not even Clem whos the 2nd best non-Korean after Reynor.


Stephano is the best ever for non-Koreans, there is no question. He won tournaments against the very best Koreans when the Team Houses were still open and redefined the meta. Winning against Koreans today is lesser achievement.

Serral is #2.


Stephano never won tournaments against the very best Koreans and lost to other European all the times. At best he won one trophy beating beating MC and Alicia just as they were about to fade into obscurity with the Kespa switch.

Serral litteraly went 8 months without losing a series.

I think Serral > Reynor > Neeb > Stephano is pretty clearly the pecking order for best non-Koreans of all time, after that are probably Snute, Naniwa, Clem and maybe Scarlett in some order?
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
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