On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote: It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation.
Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here.
Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there.
Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary).
Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!!
Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt.
Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win.
Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically)
I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned.
What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light).
I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ.
I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them
Which Zerg underdog has punched Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark off their perch in the knockout stage of a major tourney? The only example I can think of is Elazer upsetting Dark in Blizzcon. And Rogue slumping in group stage after a big tourney win happens across all matchups and doesn't count.
DH Summer Serrals lost 3-2 against Lambo. Lambo also defeated Dark on gsl vs the world. Not counting Rogues defeat feels a bit random
On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote: It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation.
Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here.
Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there.
Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary).
Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!!
Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt.
Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win.
Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically)
I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned.
What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light).
I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ.
I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them
Which Zerg underdog has punched Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark off their perch in the knockout stage of a major tourney? The only example I can think of is Elazer upsetting Dark in Blizzcon. And Rogue slumping in group stage after a big tourney win happens across all matchups and doesn't count.
DH Summer Serrals lost 3-2 against Lambo. Lambo also defeated Dark on gsl vs the world. Not counting Rogues defeat feels a bit random
I agree with him though that upsets in ZvZ don't really happen more often than in other matchups. Gumiho and Heromarine also upset Serral in TvZ. In general the top Zergs beat the other Zergs pretty consistenly in ZvZ
On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote: It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation.
Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here.
Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there.
Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary).
Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!!
Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt.
Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win.
Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically)
I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned.
What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light).
I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ.
I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them
Which Zerg underdog has punched Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark off their perch in the knockout stage of a major tourney? The only example I can think of is Elazer upsetting Dark in Blizzcon. And Rogue slumping in group stage after a big tourney win happens across all matchups and doesn't count.
DH Summer Serrals lost 3-2 against Lambo. Lambo also defeated Dark on gsl vs the world. Not counting Rogues defeat feels a bit random
I agree with him though that upsets in ZvZ don't really happen more often than in other matchups. Gumiho and Heromarine also upset Serral in TvZ. In general the top Zergs beat the other Zergs pretty consistenly in ZvZ
PvP arguably is the most volatile mirror matchup in SC2.
With the amount of ZvZ in LoTV, those upsets are merely an outlier. The Four Cerebrates (or whatever the Zerg equivalent is to the Four Horsemen) should have a winning percentage of over 90 or 95% over lesser drones. That's just a guesstimate. Anyone is free to pull out some stats to prove me wrong.
On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote: It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation.
Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here.
Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there.
Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary).
Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!!
Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt.
Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win.
Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically)
I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned.
What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light).
I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ.
I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them
BW ZvZ was also considered the most volatile until Jaedong started having 80%+ win rates during his peak.
I would say certainly Serral is the most skilled SC2 player, but I don't think Serral has a substantially better understanding of the game or mechanics than Maru (at least not enough to justify his WR and countless tournament wins). It's hard to say for sure, but it bothers me that Serral is unable to match his ZvP/ZvT performance in ZvZ.
I would also agree with RKC. I've followed SC2 and BW very closely since 2007. IMO BW ZvZ seems much more difficult to win consistently than SC2 ZvZ.
I would go as far as to say that Blizzard specifically overhauled ZvZ for SC2 to be more predictable due to the complaints about ZvZ in BW.
It's not just Serral. Out of the top 40 players listed in Aligulac rankings, 13 are Zerg. Of those, all but three (Rogue, Solar, Elazer) have ZvZ as their worst matchup: http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/
On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote: Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs. Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency. His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps. There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate. I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched.
Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years.
And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either
Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years
Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO
Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races
Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players
And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years
Oh, Toss players complain just as much...
lol, no. Nobody complains as much as Terrans. It's part of their race identity.
Granted, Artosis carries a significant part of that workload by himself.
This is a SC2 thread, which Artosis has barely played in years. When he does play SC2, he's Protoss and complains about how weak they are. There hasn't really been a major Terran whiner since Avilo, who also hasn't had a platform in years since he got banned from everything. Most complaints over the last few years are about Z being too strong, referencing major tournament wins over the last half decade (not to mention their dominance in the foreigner scene). Those complaints would come equally from Terran and Protoss, so I'm not really sure what you're on about when you say complaining is part of the Terran race identity.
Artosis has been casting GSL, the world's premier SC2 tournament, for the past twelve years. He has far more of a platform to vent his opinions than any SC2 player. And yes, he still complains like a Terran.
That's an astonishing leap in logic. I'll try to break it down in easier to understand chunks:
Artosis does not play Terran in SC2. When he plays SC2, he's Protoss. Artosis does not complain about Terran being too weak in SC2. Artosis primarily plays and complains about Terran in a game called Brood War. Brood War is not the same game as SC2 and the races are balanced completely differently. Trying to attribute Artosis's Brood War Terran complaints to the SC2 Terran community is nonsensical.
Also, you will find players of every race whining about their weaknesses at all points in time, regardless of who the meta favors. It's equally absurd to stereotype Terran players as the only ones.
It does seem to me that a weekender tournament will always suit Zerg's playstyle better, in that they are highly reactive. Watching the Finals looked like Serral figured out Maru's playstyle, and countered it completely. Hence, that is why he looked so dominant. It also doesn't help that Maru himself played against Solar, Lambo, and Reynor in the previous rounds, showing all his styles to Serral. He also didn't have too much time to come up with proper timing attacks etc.
I think that unless we change something about the format of weekenders, Zergs are always favoured, even if it's just by a bit, and a bit is all some players need at the tip top level. Now, I'm wondering if DH Valencia's Finals between Dark/Maru was so close is because of the all new maps in the map pool.
On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote: Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs. Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency. His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps. There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate. I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched.
Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years.
And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either
Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years
Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO
Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races
Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players
And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years
Oh, Toss players complain just as much...
lol, no. Nobody complains as much as Terrans. It's part of their race identity.
Granted, Artosis carries a significant part of that workload by himself.
This is a SC2 thread, which Artosis has barely played in years. When he does play SC2, he's Protoss and complains about how weak they are. There hasn't really been a major Terran whiner since Avilo, who also hasn't had a platform in years since he got banned from everything. Most complaints over the last few years are about Z being too strong, referencing major tournament wins over the last half decade (not to mention their dominance in the foreigner scene). Those complaints would come equally from Terran and Protoss, so I'm not really sure what you're on about when you say complaining is part of the Terran race identity.
Artosis has been casting GSL, the world's premier SC2 tournament, for the past twelve years. He has far more of a platform to vent his opinions than any SC2 player. And yes, he still complains like a Terran.
That's an astonishing leap in logic. I'll try to break it down in easier to understand chunks:
Artosis does not play Terran in SC2. When he plays SC2, he's Protoss. Artosis does not complain about Terran being too weak in SC2. Artosis primarily plays and complains about Terran in a game called Brood War. Brood War is not the same game as SC2 and the races are balanced completely differently. Trying to attribute Artosis's Brood War Terran complaints to the SC2 Terran community is nonsensical.
Also, you will find players of every race whining about their weaknesses at all points in time, regardless of who the meta favors. It's equally absurd to stereotype Terran players as the only ones.
Tbf just looking at the pro players it's probably true that Terran players have the most notorious whiners. For Terran we have/had Heromarine, Special, uthermal and Marinelord who are all massive balance whiners, for Zerg it's really just Scarlett (unless we go really far back to the IdrA days) and for Protoss I can't really think of anyone who complains as much.
From the community though every race probably complains about the same
On September 08 2022 13:50 buzz_bender wrote: It does seem to me that a weekender tournament will always suit Zerg's playstyle better, in that they are highly reactive. Watching the Finals looked like Serral figured out Maru's playstyle, and countered it completely. Hence, that is why he looked so dominant. It also doesn't help that Maru himself played against Solar, Lambo, and Reynor in the previous rounds, showing all his styles to Serral. He also didn't have too much time to come up with proper timing attacks etc.
I think that unless we change something about the format of weekenders, Zergs are always favoured, even if it's just by a bit, and a bit is all some players need at the tip top level. Now, I'm wondering if DH Valencia's Finals between Dark/Maru was so close is because of the all new maps in the map pool.
Was Maru's playstyle different this weekend to the 4/ 8 / 12 weeks before? Or is it more of a "Maru is playing very predictable in general" kinda problem?
On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote: Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs. Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency. His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps. There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate. I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched.
Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years.
And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either
Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years
Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO
Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races
Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players
And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years
Oh, Toss players complain just as much...
lol, no. Nobody complains as much as Terrans. It's part of their race identity.
Granted, Artosis carries a significant part of that workload by himself.
This is a SC2 thread, which Artosis has barely played in years. When he does play SC2, he's Protoss and complains about how weak they are. There hasn't really been a major Terran whiner since Avilo, who also hasn't had a platform in years since he got banned from everything. Most complaints over the last few years are about Z being too strong, referencing major tournament wins over the last half decade (not to mention their dominance in the foreigner scene). Those complaints would come equally from Terran and Protoss, so I'm not really sure what you're on about when you say complaining is part of the Terran race identity.
Artosis has been casting GSL, the world's premier SC2 tournament, for the past twelve years. He has far more of a platform to vent his opinions than any SC2 player. And yes, he still complains like a Terran.
That's an astonishing leap in logic.
What is? That casting GSL for twelve years means Artosis' opinions have more influence than those of any player? That seems like a very basic statement to me, what about it challenges you?
On September 08 2022 12:37 Kitai wrote:I'll try to break it down in easier to understand chunks:
Artosis does not play Terran in SC2. When he plays SC2, he's Protoss. Artosis does not complain about Terran being too weak in SC2. Artosis primarily plays and complains about Terran in a game called Brood War. Brood War is not the same game as SC2 and the races are balanced completely differently. Trying to attribute Artosis's Brood War Terran complaints to the SC2 Terran community is nonsensical.
Breaking it down did make it easy to spot the problem. It's the third chunk. Artosis does complain about Terran being too weak in SC2. Routinely.
On September 08 2022 13:50 buzz_bender wrote: It does seem to me that a weekender tournament will always suit Zerg's playstyle better, in that they are highly reactive. Watching the Finals looked like Serral figured out Maru's playstyle, and countered it completely. Hence, that is why he looked so dominant. It also doesn't help that Maru himself played against Solar, Lambo, and Reynor in the previous rounds, showing all his styles to Serral. He also didn't have too much time to come up with proper timing attacks etc.
I think that unless we change something about the format of weekenders, Zergs are always favoured, even if it's just by a bit, and a bit is all some players need at the tip top level. Now, I'm wondering if DH Valencia's Finals between Dark/Maru was so close is because of the all new maps in the map pool.
Was Maru's playstyle different this weekend to the 4/ 8 / 12 weeks before? Or is it more of a "Maru is playing very predictable in general" kinda problem?
He actually showcased a whole bunch of different styles, mostly aggressive builds against Lambo/Solar and Reynor. He even went 2 Starport 2 BC build into mech against Reynor in the last game. He didn't play his "signature" turtle style much. I have a feeling that he knows that the Zerg players are figuring him out - in terms of when to attack and army comp and movement etc, and hence his playstyle is quite different than usual. But then again, how much more can you do when you're playing against Zerg after Zerg?
I actually think that he "lost" the tournament when he dropped into the lower bracket after he lost to ShowTime. If he stayed in the upper bracket, he really only had to play Serral in a Bo5 without showing any of his TvZ builds.
EPT
