EPT
TSL 9 - Week 3
Players & Bracket
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/TSL9/week3schedulebracket.png)
Streams & Casters
Map Pool
Results
CSS: FO-nTTaX
Awesomeness: Panda
Banner: Team Liquid
[TSL9] - Week 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
CSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: Team Liquid | ||
|
Master of DalK
Canada1797 Posts
| ||
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 02 2022 19:36 sudete wrote: Time for a return to ZvZ mania For better or worse, Reynor will spare us some of that  | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
Hopefully this match is worth it. | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On September 02 2022 20:12 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Well, I'm up. Hopefully this match is worth it. just by witnessing the hug they gave each other at the start is worth it | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 02 2022 20:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Are they showing Chrono Boost in the production tab now? Has that been there for a while and I never noticed it? It's new and also TSL-specific. Haven't seen it in any other tournaments before today. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
Second game: holy shit herO! You look unstoppable | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
I don't see how you're supposed to beat it as Terran. Game 2, was as good as I've seen Maru play the match up and herO just kept catching him. | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 02 2022 20:57 darklycid wrote: Way better game by maru. I don't know about that. Maru played great in Game 2. Hero's the one who overinvested in his tech and infrastructure here, leaving himself vulnerable. | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
On September 02 2022 20:59 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I don't know about that. Maru played great in Game 2. Hero's the one who overinvested in his tech and infrastructure here, leaving himself vulnerable. I disagree I think Maru played well in g2 but not 'great' in Maru standards. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 02 2022 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote: Or not, herO gonna slug this out to the end. He's been down by like 50% army supply for a long while. His army's almost all Gateway units now. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
 | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
I don't see how the rest of the day can hope to live up to this. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
Gg Maru! Nice revenge | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Moonerz
United States445 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
Maru vs GuMiho/ByuN seems like a done deal already but maybe GuMiho has a shot? I don't trust ByuN's TvT that much | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 02 2022 21:46 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Verdict on the series is: I don't regret getting up early to watch this. Game 2 was really good. Rest of the games weren't that spectacular on their own, but if you've been following the rivalry the mindgames aspect made this series fantastic IMO. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
One more | ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 02 2022 23:48 Vindicare605 wrote: lol this thread absolutely died after herO vs Maru was over. Kind of expected it to happen, but this is a super steep drop off. I'm watching, just not feeling anything to post about . | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 02 2022 23:48 Vindicare605 wrote: lol this thread absolutely died after herO vs Maru was over. Kind of expected it to happen, but this is a super steep drop off. Well, TvT is a borefest and everyone and their mothers know that Classic will get 3-0'd. Maybe Heromarine vs Zoun can be interesting, but after what Zoun showed in GSL, I'm not hopeful either | ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On September 02 2022 23:48 Vindicare605 wrote: lol this thread absolutely died after herO vs Maru was over. Kind of expected it to happen, but this is a super steep drop off. Yeah, feels a bit off to have the sick city literal GSL final start the day Classic just kinda getting rekt this series. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 02 2022 23:56 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm watching, just not feeling anything to post about .Found something to feel about. That Warp Prism loss was physically painful. | ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
. | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 03 2022 01:04 Argonauta wrote: m really hoping for Zoun to score 2 in a row, I wanna keep other toss and not just showtime! In theory I feel the same, but watching the games I haven't been very excited for the play of today's non-hero Protoss. | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On September 03 2022 01:08 Fanatic-Templar wrote: In theory I feel the same, but watching the games I haven't been very excited for the play of today's non-hero Protoss. well... game 4 was a massacre . GG Gabe! Sick early game | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
Good thing he likes to turtle | ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
There's plenty of game to be played, but this shit feel compleatly over. | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Moonerz
United States445 Posts
| ||
|
Seacow
Sweden99 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 03 2022 02:28 Vindicare605 wrote: Has their ever been a player who seems as invulnerable in a match up as Maru has seemed in TvT over the last year and change? Rogue in ZvP for years. At least that's definitely how it felt. | ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On September 03 2022 02:28 Vindicare605 wrote: Has their ever been a player who seems as invulnerable in a match up as Maru has seemed in TvT over the last year and change? Thing is, Maru doesn't "just" dominate TvT, he very regularly performs above / way above other terrans throughout the years and patches. That's even more impressive imo, he is often the last hope of his race | ||
|
JJH777
United States4408 Posts
On September 03 2022 02:29 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Rogue in ZvP for years. At least that's definitely how it felt. That was really only in big matches though. His ZvP winrate was never that impressive overall. Serral and Dark ZvP winrate from mid 2019 until the voidray patch of 2020 was pretty ridiculous. But not as impressive because every top Zerg including the ones outside of the top 4 had like a 70%+ ZvP winrate during that time. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 03 2022 02:33 JJH777 wrote: That was really only in big matches though. His ZvP winrate was never that impressive overall. Serral and Dark ZvP winrate from mid 2019 until the voidray patch of 2020 was pretty ridiculous. But not as impressive because every top Zerg including the ones outside of the top 4 had like a 70%+ ZvP winrate during that time. Probably. I wasn't using any data for that claim, just remembering the pain. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 03 2022 03:22 darklycid wrote: Solar bouncing back from his very mid results recently, or just the good non gsl event he has occasionally. Mid results? the hell? Solar only lost to Serral and Maru. It's not his fault his bracket was fucked. | ||
|
Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On September 03 2022 03:22 darklycid wrote: Solar bouncing back from his very mid results recently, or just the good non gsl event he has occasionally. the destiny of losing to Maru is too stronk | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 03 2022 03:26 tigera6 wrote: Top 6 with 4 Zerg, 1 Terran and 1 Protoss. Great race distribution despite Dark not playing. There should be 2 Terran. Lambo shouldn't be here, he shouldn't be counted. | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
On September 03 2022 03:23 Vindicare605 wrote: Mid results? the hell? Solar only lost to Serral and Maru. It's not his fault his bracket was fucked. Not this event, every recent event he didn't perform too well in. | ||
|
Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
Not trying to hate, just curious. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 03 2022 04:17 Darpa wrote: Curious what the reasoning is for the early start time? Basically eliminating 90% of American viewership. Sort of understood when it was online because the Korean players would be playing at 5am otherwise. But this is lan. Your not playing at prime time Europe or at a reasonable hour in NA? Pretty much every other tournament played in Europe starts 2-3 hours later. Not trying to hate, just curious. 2-3 hours later would mean ending at or around midnight local time as the game stood today. These were Bo5 series and they could easily still be going if they weren't all 3-0 stomps aside from herO vs Maru. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 03 2022 02:28 Vindicare605 wrote: Has there ever been a player who seems as invulnerable in a match up as Maru has seemed in TvT over the last year and change? Serral's ZvP is probably the closest but still not quite Maru TvT level | ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
On September 03 2022 03:26 tigera6 wrote: Top 6 with 4 Zerg, 1 Terran and 1 Protoss. Great race distribution despite Dark not playing. I was hyped for the event but I have to work from 2 to 12 pm this week end, I was secretly hoping for that ZvZ fiesta so I have no regrets | ||
|
Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On September 03 2022 04:24 Vindicare605 wrote: 2-3 hours later would mean ending at or around midnight local time as the game stood today. These were Bo5 series and they could easily still be going if they weren't all 3-0 stomps aside from herO vs Maru. really dont think so? Its 10pm in the Netherlands right now, and the games have been over for at least 2.5-3 hours already. Its more than likely everything would be done by now regardless. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
BeoMulf
United States92 Posts
| ||
|
Seacow
Sweden99 Posts
+ Good casting + Smooth production overall - Three week gap dulled the hype - Replacement troubles (out of their hands, but still feels weird that HM and Solar got revived. And Lambo pushed up to upper bracket despite losing). Yesterday: Expected more from Byun vs Maru, but Maru's just too good. Today: I hope big brain Lambo gets another shot at beating Serral/Reynor. Still remember his 3-4 vs Serral. | ||
|
angry_maia
314 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 03 2022 15:17 angry_maia wrote: I just hope reynor plays protoss at some point Reynor vs Maru Z/P vs T/P, they could meet in a Bo7 | ||
|
Master of DalK
Canada1797 Posts
On September 03 2022 07:35 Die4Ever wrote: I haven't finished watching yet, but minor complaint, the transition to first person view is a bit slow maybe, I feel like there's been a few things missed during the transition, like a widow mine hit stuff like that The first person views are delayed ever so slightly so that we don't miss anything due to the transition actually! On September 03 2022 01:46 Argonauta wrote: I love the idea of replays by the TSL team, but unfortunately, SC2 is too fast of a game to pull it off. Overall, we understand there is a lot going on and SC2 is a busy game, we aren't going to be perfect but if something unexpected happens we will always bail out to regular observer view to ensure we miss as little as possible. Additionally yesterday was our first time in the workflow, we have a few ideas to tighten things up and make sure that we can in fact pull it off! | ||
|
nickycruze2
1 Post
| ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On September 03 2022 16:38 nickycruze2 wrote: I really hope that Maru will be able to defeat herO this time around! I have great news for you then! | ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On September 03 2022 20:20 tigera6 wrote: Reynor is embracing the Protoss way, dying to a Nydus-Queen into the Main. To be fair, I think he would have died even if the Nydus went up in the front, but the Nydus in main made things a lot faster. | ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On September 03 2022 20:17 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Smacked. | ||
|
BelethielQT
90 Posts
smacked | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Lets see if Reynor can close it out! | ||
|
Javah
France739 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 03 2022 21:05 Fanatic-Templar wrote: So I did not choose to get up early for this ZvZ. Series looks close, how were the games? Pretty damn meh. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
Good. Sleep was pretty damn good :D. | ||
|
Javah
France739 Posts
On September 03 2022 21:05 Fanatic-Templar wrote: So I did not choose to get up early for this ZvZ. Series looks close, how were the games? First game Reynor chose protoss and got queen nydused in the main by a missed overlord, second game ZvZ Serral outpositioned Reynor with nyduses, and last two games were dominated midgame by Reynor after a little 6 mutas play. | ||
|
Elentos
55550 Posts
| ||
|
dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On September 03 2022 21:09 Elentos wrote: I don't know that I can remember another Serral vs Reynor series that was this awful. Really? I feel most of their series have been meh since 2019. Katowice was a bit of an exception, but even then the games weren't great it was just dramatic as a series overall | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On September 03 2022 21:13 tigera6 wrote: After watching it, I think Dark is the best ZvZ currently Most likely yes, during their last encounter he looked very good against serral in standart game. | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
The venue seems nice for the players btw | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On September 03 2022 21:36 Durnuu wrote: Considering it's not only two foreigners but also Showtime is involved, I expect an average game time of 20 minutes AT LEAST. Dunno if Lambo is going to survive that long. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Javah
France739 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
Still a better Protoss story than Legacy of the Void. | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
dysenterymd
1237 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 03 2022 22:37 dysenterymd wrote: ShoWTimE looks great, I sort of doubt he can beat Serral or offline Maru though. Hope he can put up good matches at least. Not a ballsy prediction, but I would go for revenge Maru vs Showtimes in the final. | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 03 2022 22:39 swarminfestor wrote: Not a ballsy prediction, but I would go for revenge Maru vs Showtimes in the final. How is that not a ballsy prediction lol | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
not just that he's losing games and series to (really excellent) players, but having the entire Korean region smell blood in the water and decide to just straight up all-in him over and over again in the ugliest ways possible is........................not nice on the plus side, he was already one of the best reactive/instinctive players in the world, so if he actually manages to learn how to hold all these Korean cheeses ALSO, he should be unbeatable! | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On September 03 2022 23:23 Die4Ever wrote: would be amazing if Solar finally wins a tournament again Maybe with the power of replacement man Solar can finally beat Maru | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On September 03 2022 23:26 dysenterymd wrote: Maybe with the power of replacement man Solar can finally beat Maru Too much bomber law in him, no matter the situation, he will manage to eat a nuke or make the silliest engage possible against maru. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 03 2022 23:40 Die4Ever wrote: Reynor always seems to get stronger when he's down 0-2 yeah this really is his super power, somehow | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 03 2022 23:45 Captain Peabody wrote: yeah this really is his super power, somehow Reverse TY | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
this is clearly why he didn't do well in the GSL Ro20, they're best of threes so it's impossible for him to go 0-2 & then reverse sweep | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 04 2022 00:09 Captain Peabody wrote: this is clearly why he didn't do well in the GSL Ro20, they're best of threes so it's impossible for him to go 0-2 & then reverse sweeping Or maybe the issue is that he went up 1-0 in each match | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 04 2022 00:10 Durnuu wrote: Or maybe the issue is that he went up 1-0 in each match oh wow yeah you're right, a HUGE error in his preparation and series planning | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
watching late-game Zerg armies melt to snipes is psychologically devastating even to watch | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 04 2022 00:35 Captain Peabody wrote: this is not a balance complaint, but imo nothing in SC2 *looks* more OP/broken than Terran late-game stuff in the hands of someone like Maru watching late-game Zerg armies melt to snipes is psychologically devastating even to watch Snipe is definitely overtuned imo. Doesn't mean it's completely imbalanced (obviously, just look at Zerg results in the past 5 years ) either, but yeah | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
Here's the truth. Zergs feel entitled to have their armies win in late game situations vs Terran, they spend the whole game getting to Hive that when they start to lose once they are actually AT Hive, they rage and call imba. It's what they've always done. Anything that the other races have that can beat them once they are on Hive armies is broken and needs to be nerfed. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 04 2022 00:35 Captain Peabody wrote: this is not a balance complaint, but imo nothing in SC2 *looks* more OP/broken than Terran late-game stuff in the hands of someone like Maru watching late-game Zerg armies melt to snipes is psychologically devastating even to watch Maru also lost the late game TvZ to the person like Dark and Rogue in the past. That sniping strategy doesn't always work. | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
All I'm saying, though, is that when you have a situation with a great Terran player using the late-game comp optimally, esp against a weaker player, it feels absurdly silly and powerful to see them absolutely melting top-tier late-game Zerg armies. | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
but credit to Lambo! he's been steadily getting better & making deeper and deeper runs into tournaments of late, and playing really well. the question is if he can make that magical leap to the top tier, but I think he has a shot if he keeps at it. | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
In current forms I expect Maru to 3-1 Reynor here. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:07 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Maru Maru'd him, but it felt like Lambo at least played decently. In current forms I expect Maru to 3-1 Reynor here. Depends, do they play PvP or not? | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On September 04 2022 00:57 Captain Peabody wrote: yeah again, I don't actually think it's OP, nor do I think I would support nerfing (I'm a Protoss main who mostly plays random). I really like the fact that Terran has strong late-game comps now (which was a big gap in the past), and I especially like that the Ghost is a unit that (unlike, say, a lot of Protoss late-game units) is very high-skill variance. I certainly don't think that Terran always wins in the late game, or that there's nothing Zerg can do against it. All I'm saying, though, is that when you have a situation with a great Terran player using the late-game comp optimally, esp against a weaker player, it feels absurdly silly and powerful to see them absolutely melting top-tier late-game Zerg armies. The main problem is it's fucking boring, it's either camping fest with death ball or the zerg banging his head against the terran defense with concave/amove/move commanding the bane. The interactions are one dimensionnal and pretty shit regardless of the outcome but the map pool favors it so here we go. | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
honestly with all the off-racing someone needs to do a MANDATORY OFF-RACING tournament. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:11 Captain Peabody wrote: honestly with all the off-racing someone needs to do a MANDATORY OFF-RACING tournament. We had some show matches that did those but I don't think there's been any tournaments with significant prize money, or at least not that I know of anyway. Might be a nice thing to have at some point. From what I hear, Maru's Zerg is really strong. | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:16 Vindicare605 wrote: We had some show matches that did those but I don't think there's been any tournaments with significant prize money, or at least not that I know of anyway. Might be a nice thing to have at some point. From what I hear, Maru's Zerg is really strong. Clem's zerg is insane too But I am willing to bet their protoss is even better Wasn't maru 6.7 with toss ? | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:21 stilt wrote: Clem's zerg is insane too But I am willing to bet their protoss is even better Wasn't maru 6.7 with toss ? I wouldn't take that Maru MMR at face value because there's a good chance it's just him sharing his account with his protoss teammates. | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:22 Durnuu wrote: I wouldn't take that Maru MMR at face value because there's a good chance it's just him sharing his account with his protoss teammates. True but there have been rumors about his protoss being to level since a while | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:26 stilt wrote: True but there have been rumors about his protoss being to level since a while Yeah he showcased it once on his stream and was beating players like Ragnarok with it | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:10 stilt wrote: The main problem is it's fucking boring, it's either camping fest with death ball or the zerg banging his head against the terran defense with concave/amove/move commanding the bane. The interactions are one dimensionnal and pretty shit regardless of the outcome but the map pool favors it so here we go. I don't think the interactions are better when Zerg has creepspread across half the map by the 8 minute mark, defends everything the terran throws at him with Queens + Ling Bane and then just wins. | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:45 Captain Peabody wrote: lol the Koreans have decided that Reynor is weak to all-ins & they will test him I think it’s the other way around, Lambo was weak enough for Maru to play straight up but vs Reynor he uses the good 2 base all-ins / timing that every KR terrans are doing atm on this map pool | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:49 Poopi wrote: I think it’s the other way around, Lambo was weak enough for Maru to play straight up but vs Reynor he uses the good 2 base all-ins / timing that every KR terrans are doing atm on this map pool Nah, Lambo actually respect Maru enough to not doing greedy build, he was going for bane nest first for quick bane speed. Reynor drop 2 Evol Chamber, with a 4th and 70 Drones, it would be crazy to not do a 2-base push against that. | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
Maru playing really well. | ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
Maru is good but Reynor is no Serral at understanding the state of the game | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:58 Poopi wrote: 99 drones vs 3 bases allin? Maru is good but Reynor is no Serral at understanding the state of the game And teching to muta was weird, going hive and massing baneling would probably have been enough even with this drone count Massive throw | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
Still, at least we don’t get to see poor Solar face Maru, we have seen too much pain already | ||
|
dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On September 04 2022 01:58 Poopi wrote: 99 drones vs 3 bases allin? Maru is good but Reynor is no Serral at understanding the state of the game Yeah, so far Reynor has had negative game sense. Maru's been tricky, but top Zerg have shown that there are plenty of ways to sniff out what a Terran's doing. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 04 2022 02:01 dysenterymd wrote: Yeah, so far Reynor has had negative game sense. He's always been pretty braindead. His strength is getting 90-100 drones and shiftqueuing 50 zerglings in the terran natural until it works. | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 04 2022 02:01 dysenterymd wrote: Yeah, so far Reynor has had negative game sense. Maru's been tricky, but top Zerg have shown that there are plenty of ways to sniff out what a Terran's doing. Reynor has been under the impression that Maru was going to turtle the whole time, he even said that much in previous interview. So Reynor just play like how he would play against Maru turtling, but yeah his scouting has been horrible, and Reynor arent particularly strong against timing push, like he lost series to HM and Cure before by doing the same thing. | ||
|
lazyahasil
1 Post
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 04 2022 02:02 Durnuu wrote: He's always been pretty braindead. His strength is getting 90-100 drones and shiftqueuing 50 zerglings in the terran natural until it works. I think he's a pretty intelligent player, but his strategic reactions are quite a bit slower than his tactical reactions; he gets into a particular mindset and has trouble getting out of it this is another reason why he has ended up with a lot of reverse sweeps, I think; it takes him a couple losses to switch gears strategically | ||
|
dial0826
1 Post
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
| ||
|
Parser
Italy87 Posts
On September 04 2022 02:36 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Is Reynor doing his 0-2 into 3-2 thing again? Hopefully yes | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
TossHeroes
281 Posts
Happy for him | ||
|
Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
David Kim did nothing wrong  | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 04 2022 02:54 Fanatic-Templar wrote: That was a really cool Battlecruiser massacre. Won't change the game though, I expect. Reminded me what Dark did to Gumiho or Ryung in GSL last year? That time he used infestor to neural instead of fungal, then kill all the BCs using corosive bio. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 04 2022 02:59 Waxangel wrote: Perfect racial balance in the top 3 David Kim did nothing wrong David Kim didn't, but his successors... | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
HeroSandro
530 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 04 2022 03:05 HeroSandro wrote: Really odd gameplan from Reynor. Your mistake is thinking he has a plan. | ||
|
largo9963
2 Posts
TSL IS SUPER GOD | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
angry_maia
314 Posts
| ||
|
TossHeroes
281 Posts
On September 04 2022 03:33 angry_maia wrote: I feel like if showtime didn't upset Maru 2-1 we would have hero Maru serral top three. Put some Respect in Showtime Didn’t you get the cliche? Showtime can beat anyone easily when he is playing his “A” game (which is once in a blue moon) | ||
|
angry_maia
314 Posts
On September 04 2022 04:01 TossHeroes wrote: Put some Respect in Showtime Didn’t you get the cliche? Showtime can beat anyone easily when he is playing his “A” game (which is once in a blue moon) Haha don't mean at all to take away from his accomplishment. It just feels bad that Hero and Maru had to fight so early in the tournament. However, I'm really rooting for Showtime to do well against Serral! | ||
|
neveranexit
14 Posts
| ||
|
FuDDx
United States5008 Posts
| ||
|
pandorasheep
73 Posts
| ||
|
shindiginit
21 Posts
On September 04 2022 05:39 pandorasheep wrote: Damn I was sleeping. How was Serral vs Reynor and Maru vs Reynor? Worth watching the vod? Serral v Reynor was the better series imo (ZvZ over TvZ waaaaat). Maru vs Reynor was fairly one-sided per game . | ||
|
BeoMulf
United States92 Posts
| ||
|
Master of DalK
Canada1797 Posts
On September 04 2022 05:39 pandorasheep wrote: Damn I was sleeping. How was Serral vs Reynor and Maru vs Reynor? Worth watching the vod? Maru vs Reynor was fuckin godlike | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
FuDDx
United States5008 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 04 2022 22:01 FuDDx wrote: Here we go!!! Nice stache Ravi!! Can we get some balloon photo for the last day of our carnaval? | ||
|
pandorasheep
73 Posts
On September 04 2022 06:44 shindiginit wrote: Serral v Reynor was the better series imo (ZvZ over TvZ waaaaat). Maru vs Reynor was fairly one-sided per game . How was it one sided? Wasnt it 3-2? | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
On September 04 2022 22:08 pandorasheep wrote: How was it one sided? Wasnt it 3-2? Per game , so the games were on sided by themselves. | ||
|
pandorasheep
73 Posts
| ||
|
Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 04 2022 22:38 tigera6 wrote: Fighting mass lingbane without splash damage is not the way. Now he's adapting and making the most reliable AoE | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
On September 04 2022 23:24 [PkF] Wire wrote: no more interceptors. This is it or is it ???? | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
| ||
|
Topin
Peru10078 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
| ||
|
Topin
Peru10078 Posts
| ||
|
JohnMatrix
France1357 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
extremely entertaining game though. Had me on the edge of my seat for the last fifteen minutes at least | ||
|
Javah
France739 Posts
| ||
|
DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 04 2022 23:30 DBooN wrote: Even at the end Showtime still could've won if he didn't lose his oracle to 3 queens. Not just oracles, but also high templars for free in the last few minutes before. | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 04 2022 23:33 swarminfestor wrote: Not just oracles, but also high templars for free in the last few minutes before. biggest mistakes was him not protecting the gold base imo. If he builds cannons and Batteries there and just camps with Tempests there I think he should just win due to 1 base advantage | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
TaKeTV
Germany1199 Posts
On September 04 2022 23:38 [PkF] Wire wrote: It's easy to bash ShoWTime for his loss in the 4th game, but one should not overlook how hard it is to play against someone who, from an objectively worse position, just refuses to die and keeps making excellent moves to force you to make correct decisions until the very end. I found Serral's resilience and resourcefulness extremely impressive and I won't be too hard on ShoWTime for letting go of that game, countless players would have done the same or even worse The most overlooked fact is - most of the time - that we as viewers have all the information. As player even if you have a lot, you still do have limited information. -naruto | ||
|
allmotor1
153 Posts
On September 04 2022 23:50 Charoisaur wrote: biggest mistakes was him not protecting the gold base imo. If he builds cannons and Batteries there and just camps with Tempests there I think he should just win due to 1 base advantage yea it was frustrating to see him let the gold constantly get taken down. | ||
|
pandorasheep
73 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
On September 04 2022 23:56 TaKeTV wrote: The most overlooked fact is - most of the time - that we as viewers have all the information. As player even if you have a lot, you still do have limited information. -naruto obviously, that played a huge role here. And btw, if ShoWTime has 21 more minerals and can afford an observer... Guess he was bound not to have them since his carriers were constantly absorbing his minerals, but still. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
On September 05 2022 00:19 Durnuu wrote: Maru preparing for the turtle of a lifetime with 4 extra CCs at a mere 9 minutes of game time that turtle of a lifetime lasted like 5 seconds hahaha | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 05 2022 00:20 [PkF] Wire wrote: that turtle of a lifetime lasted like 5 seconds hahaha Funny timing from me, but props to Showtime for having a killer instinct for once in his life tbh | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
On September 05 2022 00:21 Durnuu wrote: Funny timing from me, but props to Showtime for having a killer instinct for once in his life tbh indeed !! | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
pandorasheep
73 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
|
FuDDx
United States5008 Posts
On September 04 2022 22:07 Nakajin wrote: Mustachedragon is the host I never knew I needed. Can we get some balloon photo for the last day of our carnaval? ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/B99F1MD.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/tvdMGNU.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/L4fchJ7.jpg) Here are a few !! | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Thanks!!!! The colossus and the zealot are looking amazing! | ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 05 2022 00:58 Poopi wrote: These scv pull out are so sexy The legacy of BitbyBit is eternal. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Javah
France739 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
VladSlymor
80 Posts
On September 05 2022 01:24 Javah wrote: Maru does weird things to his opponents brains... He manages to look weak enough to make them want bruteforce him, and yet defends everytime until they throw a bit too much then counters and win :D Amazing to see this scenario happen again and again I mean, why in hell would you bash your head on the 3rd here and not just contain with your 10+ bases vs. 4? This plus the disruptor micro...a bit of a disaster for Showtime unfortunately  | ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
| ||
|
Javah
France739 Posts
On September 05 2022 01:27 VladSlymor wrote: I mean, why in hell would you bash your head on the 3rd here and not just contain with your 10+ bases vs. 4? This plus the disruptor micro...a bit of a disaster for Showtime unfortunately Sure but he was probably thinking that constant trading would prevent Maru to get a 5th and to get to a higher tech army like he now does, and it kind of worked for some time... ShoWTimE started playing a bit like a lair tech zerg but it works only if you can contain until you bleed them dry. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Javah
France739 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 05 2022 01:32 Durnuu wrote: Looks like Showtime should win in the end, but boy was it close. Or not lmao | ||
|
VladSlymor
80 Posts
On September 05 2022 01:32 Durnuu wrote: Looks like Showtime should win in the end, but boy was it close. Not done yet, huge army deficit | ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
| ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
That was a questionable engage. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
Didn't expect Showtime to engage 8 tanks with no zealot support | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 05 2022 01:34 Charoisaur wrote: wtf Tanks are good in TvP? Showtime keeps using his Zealot charges to make contact with the enemy and then immediately turn back. He did the same with a forward Stalker blink too. | ||
|
Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Topin
Peru10078 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Very fun game | ||
|
dysenterymd
1237 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Topin
Peru10078 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 05 2022 01:51 swarminfestor wrote: Was this first time Maru faced Serral in offline final match? I believe so yeah On September 05 2022 01:52 Topin wrote: damn what happened, missed the last game Viking, marine, tank early push with a few scv against a three base stargate set up, Showtime defended but loss a lot of stuff and was behind on tech, follow up push killed him. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 05 2022 01:51 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Did better than against Serral at least. PvT is an easier match up. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
if the winners bracket player got the 1-0 lead, and the losers bracket player got the map veto, then it would be basically the same thing as no advantage full bo7 except the winners bracket player gets an autowin for the first game which would be the veto'd map debatable which way is better, just a thought if we want something that still gives an advantage but not as extreme | ||
|
youaremysin
119 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
Still, he should be able to take a game or two to make it a series! | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:12 Poopi wrote: This finals should be pretty difficult for Maru, the map pool is not good for terran and Serral is up one map and a veto. Still, he should be able to take a game or two to make it a series! Isn't the map pool considered the best for terran in a good while? I don't think Maru can do it though, hopefully he can take one of the first two map to make it a series. | ||
|
TossHeroes
281 Posts
However Serral’s skills will just be too much for Maru to handle this tournament Hoping for a close back and forth 7 games between them However Serral looks unstoppable at the moment | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On September 05 2022 01:54 Die4Ever wrote: man, a 1-0 lead, and also getting to veto a map, is a pretty big advantage for the winners bracket player if the winners bracket player got the 1-0 lead, and the losers bracket player got the map veto, then it would be basically the same thing as no advantage full bo7 except the winners bracket player gets an autowin for the first game which would be the veto'd map debatable which way is better, just a thought if we want something that still gives an advantage but not as extreme Serral also got the first map pick too? how many advantages can they stack on here lol | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:15 Nakajin wrote: Isn't the map pool considered the best for terran in a good while? I don't think Maru can do it though, hopefully he can take one of the first two map to make it a series. yeah it's a much better map pool for Terran. Maru can absolutely take this imo; Serral should be the favorite tho given the upper-bracket advantage | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:19 Die4Ever wrote: Serral also got the first map pick too? how many advantages can they stack on here lol no, it looks like the "first pick" is actually the veto (on the principle that the first map played is an automatic 1-0). we start on Maru's map it looks like. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:23 Captain Peabody wrote: no, it looks like the "first pick" is actually the veto (on the principle that the first map played is an automatic 1-0). we start on Maru's map it looks like. oh good lol | ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:15 Nakajin wrote: Isn't the map pool considered the best for terran in a good while? I don't think Maru can do it though, hopefully he can take one of the first two map to make it a series. Doesn’t seem like it, other terrans struggle a lot and even Maru has troubles. Granted, the previous map pool wasn’t great but it was also due to the patch (and pride of altaris being terribly bad) | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:30 Captain Peabody wrote: only Serral having the guts to just straight-up Ravager rush Maru I can think of a couple other zergs that would | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:30 Captain Peabody wrote: only Serral having the guts to just straight-up Ravager rush Maru Rogue won his last GSL finals against Maru doing shit like this. Surprise surprise, when someone is known for playing for the late game, that if you rush them you throw them off of their game. Great choice from Serral, we'll see how Maru adjusts or if the whole series goes like this. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:32 Vindicare605 wrote: Rogue won his last GSL finals against Maru doing shit like this. Surprise surprise, when someone is known for playing for the late game, that if you rush them you throw them off of their game. Great choice from Serral, we'll see how Maru adjusts or if the whole series goes like this. yeah I know but it feels like in this tournament ppl have been giving Maru a lot of respect & letting him get away with stuff; good on Serral to keep him honest | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 05 2022 02:34 Vindicare605 wrote: And Maru responds with a 2 Rax. THIS IS PEAK HIGH LEVEL STARCRAFT TASTELESS | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:02 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Kinda impressive that Maru tried to drop 5 different bases and Serral had them all covered. yeah, Maru's mid-game has looked really really strong this tournament, and Serral has been doing great with it we'll see how he does with his late-game | ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:06 atrox_ wrote: just give serral the cheque Oh, I'm not that confident. We're headed towards splitmap TvZ. EDIT: Not if Serral can actually take that centre-right base though! | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
| ||
|
JJH777
United States4408 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:08 JJH777 wrote: What could any Terran ever do better in a situation like this? Seems completely hopeless. 3 medivacs full of units just afk while the terran is at his strongest point in the mid game just feels like throwing | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
JJH777
United States4408 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:09 atrox_ wrote: 3 medivacs full of units just afk while the terran is at his strongest point in the mid game just feels like throwing That put him behind but wasn't relevant to these last few fights. Maru was still maxed before Serral started trading. | ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:11 SHODAN wrote: 27 mineral income vs 2700 lmao. Hadn't noticed. | ||
|
lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
TossHeroes
281 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:11 JJH777 wrote: That put him behind but wasn't relevant to these last few fights. Maru was still maxed before Serral started trading. It still lead to Serral having more money and Maru having less money than if Maru had traded those units somewhat efficiently | ||
|
youaremysin
119 Posts
| ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:09 atrox_ wrote: 3 medivacs full of units just afk while the terran is at his strongest point in the mid game just feels like throwing You're not understanding that Maru was keeping them there, to keep Serral's units on his side of the map. As Terran you cover your expanding by keeping your opponent defending, and Serral had all of his units at home, allowing Maru to take his fourth. Serral had to KEEP his units at home, as long as Maru's medivacs were there. You might not understand this, but Maru gave up on those units on purpose. They accomplished what they were supposed to, even if they didn't kill anything. Ideally you'd want to cause damage with those drops too, but their primary purpose was to cover for taking your fourth. | ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:14 SHODAN wrote: maru still has a chance now that the zerg favored maps are used up. if cosmic / waterfall were still to be played yea gg Data C doesn’t seem much better? | ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:11 JJH777 wrote: That put him behind but wasn't relevant to these last few fights. Maru was still maxed before Serral started trading. definitely was relevant - serral so safe on the map with all that supply just there which just spiraled into him having infinite money and having taken no damage | ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:15 Vindicare605 wrote: You're not understanding that Maru was keeping them there, to keep Serral's units on his side of the map. As Terran you cover your expanding by keeping your opponent defending, and Serral had all of his units at home, allowing Maru to take his fourth. Serral had to KEEP his units at home, as long as Maru's medivacs were there. You might not understand this, but Maru gave up on those units on purpose. They accomplished what they were supposed to, even if they didn't kill anything. that seems like a decent point yeah but that much money + supply with 0 damage even if it was on purpose is just game losing | ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
data c is terran favored | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:15 Vindicare605 wrote: You're not understanding that Maru was keeping them there, to keep Serral's units on his side of the map. As Terran you cover your expanding by keeping your opponent defending, and Serral had all of his units at home, allowing Maru to take his fourth. Serral had to KEEP his units at home, as long as Maru's medivacs were there. You might not understand this, but Maru gave up on those units on purpose. They accomplished what they were supposed to, even if they didn't kill anything. Ideally you'd want to cause damage with those drops too, but their primary purpose was to cover for taking your fourth. Nah that was the best he could do out of that situation but in no world is throwing 3 medivacs full of units away worth it just for keeping your opponent on his side for a short while | ||
|
Athenau
569 Posts
Data-C is Terran favored:  Data-C LEWaterfall is the most imbalanced map in the pool at 39.5% TvZ as of this writing. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:16 atrox_ wrote: that seems like a decent point yeah but that much money + supply with 0 damage even if it was on purpose is just game losing No it isn't. Maru would've lost those units anyway, even if he had dropped with them and then that would have given Serral back total map control because there was nothing keeping him home. Unless Maru was going all in at that point, which he wasn't, the units in the dropships were there only to keep Serral at home so he could expand. The fact they didn't do damage isn't important. | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:15 Vindicare605 wrote: You're not understanding that Maru was keeping them there, to keep Serral's units on his side of the map. As Terran you cover your expanding by keeping your opponent defending, and Serral had all of his units at home, allowing Maru to take his fourth. Serral had to KEEP his units at home, as long as Maru's medivacs were there. You might not understand this, but Maru gave up on those units on purpose. They accomplished what they were supposed to, even if they didn't kill anything. Ideally you'd want to cause damage with those drops too, but their primary purpose was to cover for taking your fourth. yeah Maru didn't throw that game, it was a bad map for camping & late game so he tried to focus on mid-game aggression to keep Serral on his side of the map. Serral just did an exceptional job defending and by the time Maru tried to do late-game it was too late. maybe he could have transitioned faster once he wasn't doing damage with the drops but it was a very delicate situation | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:18 Charoisaur wrote: Nah that was the best he could do out of that situation but in no world is throwing 3 medivacs full of units away worth it just for keeping your opponent on his side for a short while He would have lost them anyway. The minute he saw the defenses at the third and main, he stopped controlling them because it wasn't worth microing them anymore. | ||
|
serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:18 Athenau wrote: Data-C is Terran favored: Data-C LEWaterfall is the most imbalanced map in the pool at 39.5% TvZ as of this writing. It’s still far too early to judge, and I am pretty sure a lot of these stats include the likes of Maru dunking on Lambo. Qualitatively, we saw HeroMarine or Ryung struggle against said Lambo, so it’s even at best | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:23 Captain Peabody wrote: Serral's drop defense is just exceptional I say that and then... good on Maru for finally getting some real damage in | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:23 Poopi wrote: It’s still far too early to judge, and I am pretty sure a lot of these stats include the likes of Maru dunking on Lambo. Qualitatively, we saw HeroMarine or Ryung struggle against said Lambo, so it’s even at best well to put it another way, I haven't seen a single terran veto this map vZ. good for drops, good for tanks + lib chokes, good for walling off, good for lategame turtle ghost / split map shenanigans | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:31 Captain Peabody wrote: Maru gaining ground Serral is two bases above splitmap, I'm not liking Maru's chances right now. | ||
|
Athenau
569 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
| ||
|
Kerence
Sweden1817 Posts
| ||
|
bulldozer06701
124 Posts
| ||
|
True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:34 Nakajin wrote: Do infestor leave a trace when moving burrow? They do. | ||
|
TossHeroes
281 Posts
Enjoyable finals thanks TL for another amazing tournament | ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
| ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:34 atrox_ wrote: only person to give serral any trouble was reynor lol ZvZ  | ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:34 Nakajin wrote: Do infestor leave a trace when moving burrow? yea but it's hard to spot (even harder than cloak units). that shit deserves a nerf | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:26 SHODAN wrote: well to put it another way, I haven't seen a single terran veto this map vZ. good for drops, good for tanks + lib chokes, good for walling off, good for lategame turtle ghost / split map shenanigans Still not convinced it is that good, but I agree it’s not the worst map! Congratulations Serral, dominant run | ||
|
angry_maia
314 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:36 angry_maia wrote: hard to deny that Serral is the current best player in the world. Idgaf about "goat" or "most accomplished." I rather mean that right now Serral would be a significant favorite against anyone in a bo7. unless its against Dark or Reynor in ZvZ | ||
|
Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
Queens look like they may potentially need more balancing, mass Queens all over the place has just really evolved into a catch all against Terran early aggression and is letting Zerg play ridiculously greedy. The Queen needed to be nerfed to fix ZvP, it was nerfed and now I'd say ZvP has overtaken ZvT as far as match up quality is concerned, probably time to start looking into either reigning in Transfuse (preferable as it's still so powerful defensively) or reducing creep spread potential. Second thing I'm noticing? Serral is a freak of nature, even if Queens are still overtuned. | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:35 SHODAN wrote: yea but it's hard to spot (even harder than cloak units). that shit deserves a nerf Seems like they should remove burrow neural at least. (Not a commentary about this serie, but in general it look kind of silly and a bit random if the terran see it or not) | ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:37 Beelzebub1 wrote: Okay, first thing I'm noticing is this. Queens look like they may potentially need more balancing, mass Queens all over the place has just really evolved into a catch all against Terran early aggression and is letting Zerg play ridiculously greedy. The Queen needed to be nerfed to fix ZvP, it was nerfed and now I'd say ZvP has overtaken ZvT as far as match up quality is concerned, probably time to start looking into either reigning in Transfuse (preferable as it's still so powerful defensively) or reducing creep spread potential. Second thing I'm noticing? Serral is a freak of nature, even if Queens are still overtuned. queens have been a catch all vs terran ever since that icefist (?) build in WoL. I don't think anything can be done now with the current state of development with how good zerg is in this game outside of a GSL format tournament that allows for player exploiting | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Makes it difficult to really be enthusiastic about the game tbh. Ofc there are many, many more aspects to it, a playerbase which doesn't get new blood which potentially could switch things up more as just one example. But it doesn't feel like the other two races are truly competitive in the sense that having players of similar skill level will lead to them winning about the same amount / in a similar way. | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: Zerg played on such a high level is more or less unbeatable i think (not on a game per game basis, more broadly), at least with the fairly conservative maps we have. Makes it difficult to really be enthusiastic about the game tbh. Ofc there are many, many more aspects to it, a playerbase which doesn't get new blood which potentially could switch things up more as just one example, but it doesn't feel like the other two races are truly competitive in the sense that having players of similar skill level will lead to zerg winning meaningfully more. Zerg always performs a lil bit worse when there's a meta shake and then it returns to them figuring it out and at this piint it feels like meta shakeups just happen way to rarely. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:41 Nakajin wrote: That's TaeJa vs the Champagne bottle all over again, when will we learn? Serral recommends the TSL-winning cake, but I don't think I can win TSL so I'll never know what it tastes like . | ||
|
youaremysin
119 Posts
| ||
|
HeroSandro
530 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:38 Nakajin wrote: Seems like they should remove burrow neural at least. (Not a commentary about this serie, but in general it look kind of silly and a bit random if the terran see it or not) it is silly, but I was thinking more that burrowed movement should have a more pronounced animation so that the terran can react at least. I'm not sure if it needs to be obvious when the burrowed infestor is stationary. you could argue that widow mines are obvious when stationary and burrowed so by that rule all zerg units should be obvious when stationary also. either way... 1 neural + emp being game-ending is a problem | ||
|
Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:38 atrox_ wrote: queens have been a catch all vs terran ever since that icefist (?) build in WoL. I don't think anything can be done with how good zerg is in this game outside of a GSL format tournament that allows for player exploiting Wow, the Ice Fisher build from Spanishiwa, you have thrown me down the memory rabbit hole now. I think it was alot less of an issue back then with the slower economy, you just couldn't afford that many Queens early on, the faster LOTV economy has greatly benefited Zerg I think that's a pretty popular and reasonable consensus. But, it's alot easier to nerf the Queen lol, like I said one Transfuse nerf and now ZvP looks pretty good now, the balance team should consider it I think. Btw what in God's name is going on with the aesthetics for this tournament? This is actually embarrassing to witness, FearDragon is probably going to go kick his own ass right after the camera go off. A balloon animal trophey? A Cake? Cheap plastic curtains from some random party rental place? Jesus Christ :/ | ||
|
Athenau
569 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:42 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Serral recommends the TSL-winning cake, but I don't think I can win TSL so I'll never know what it tastes like .Hey you gotta beleive in yourself! Go practice those DT rushes! | ||
|
Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
GG's | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:43 Nakajin wrote: Hey you gotta beleive in yourself! Go practice those DT rushes! Am I the new Protoss hope? (No.) | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:42 youaremysin wrote: Maybe ghost are rushed too quickly, seems like Zergs can make the decision to just flood with ling banes since ghost aren't that great in def against them. But hard to make the right call 10-12 Ghost seems about okay, they are to deal with Viper, has good damage against Ling and also can snipe unit on the retreat. The problem in this game was the loss of Factory units Tanks/Mines/Hellbat and Maru cant re-produce them fast enough vs the re-max of Zerg. The moment those units are not on the map, Zerg can just do whatever they want. Thats why I am thinking about Maru switching to Mech style in the future. | ||
|
Captain Peabody
United States3110 Posts
| ||
|
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:42 darklycid wrote: Zerg always performs a lil bit worse when there's a meta shake and then it returns to them figuring it out and at this piint it feels like meta shakeups just happen way to rarely. It's difficult to truly have a meta shakeup without patches or significant map changes. It just seems zerg is fundamentally the best race if one wants to win with 'solid' gameplay. Now it's not impossible that serral is also actually more skilled (whatever that means in detail), a stale playerbase allows that fairly easily, but it still at least feels bad to watch, and considering that there are players like reynor and dark and rogue who also showcase similar dominance from time to time at least, i'd say that even if that is true, zerg is probably still better anyway. We need actual creatvive map choices to gain variety i think, but it's probably not gonna happen either. On September 05 2022 03:46 Captain Peabody wrote: eh this is not the moment to be balance-whining I think, Serral just played really well Ofc he did, but it seems that it might just be 'easier' to "play really well" (well enough to win in dominant fashion) as a zerg player. That is the feeling one gets when watching high level starcraft. Serral can be the best player in the world for that to be true still, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Let's just say i doubt he'd be the serral we know (with as many successful runs, in the dominant style) if he played another race. | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:42 darklycid wrote: Zerg always performs a lil bit worse when there's a meta shake and then it returns to them figuring it out and at this piint it feels like meta shakeups just happen way to rarely. Has there really been a meta shake? I feel like the game hasn’t changed much in the past few years at the highest level. At least not in TvZ. It’s amazing how both Serral and Reynor were struggling at the highest level but Serral managed to shrug it all off like it was nothing. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:36 angry_maia wrote: hard to deny that Serral is the current best player in the world. Idgaf about "goat" or "most accomplished." I rather mean that right now Serral would be a significant favorite against anyone in a bo7. Not again Rogue in BO7 so far. But currently yes. | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: Zerg played on such a high level is more or less unbeatable i think (not on a game per game basis, more broadly), at least with the fairly conservative maps we have. Makes it difficult to really be enthusiastic about the game tbh. Ofc there are many, many more aspects to it, a playerbase which doesn't get new blood which potentially could switch things up more as just one example. But it doesn't feel like the other two races are truly competitive in the sense that having players of similar skill level will lead to them winning about the same amount / in a similar way. It's honestly a bit of a problem. Even when one of the top zerg lose I just feel like they are in a slump or have thrown the game (Reynor this tournament for exemple) so it dosen't "really" count and I can't really get excited for the other player. herO had me hopefull for a week or so but his shit seems to have been figured out. On the other side, the game of the "tier two" zergs have been great lately, so that's good at least. | ||
|
Athenau
569 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:46 tigera6 wrote: 10-12 Ghost seems about okay, they are to deal with Viper, has good damage against Ling and also can snipe unit on the retreat. The problem in this game was the loss of Factory units Tanks/Mines/Hellbat and Maru cant re-produce them fast enough vs the re-max of Zerg. The moment those units are not on the map, Zerg can just do whatever they want. Thats why I am thinking about Maru switching to Mech style in the future. Zergs will just bust Maru every game once they figure out he's meching. They don't have to play the lategame if they don't want to. | ||
|
Azhrak
Finland1196 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:46 Captain Peabody wrote: eh this is not the moment to be balance-whining I think, Serral just played really well Well yeah, nobody denying that, but the thing is that Maru didnt play bad neither, there was no massing bane runby that taking down all the workers, no out of position that cost the entire army or something. And the skillset of Maru in TvZ is far above any other Terran at this point in time, and thats still not close to enough. Maybe if this was a Bo7 without the map advatange and winner map pick, things could be much different. But I dont see any Terran win a premiere tournament this year unless Maru get on another insane hot streak and the bracket somehow fall into his favor. Edit: This time around, the Bracket actually favor Maru A LOT but he screwed that up with the loss to Showtime. | ||
|
Antithesis
Germany1186 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:52 Athenau wrote: Zergs will just bust Maru every game once they figure out he's meching. They don't have to play the lategame if they don't want to. Then he needs to figure that one out, but I think the issue was the double Armory that delay the production of the Factory. Special said that when he play Mech in TvZ, he went for 5 Factories first to prioritize getting more units out instead of the Tech. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days. And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation. | ||
|
LostUsername100
92 Posts
Everything was fine, until Maru lost to Serral once more, nevermind Maru does well vs every other Zerg. | ||
|
Athenau
569 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:55 tigera6 wrote: Then he needs to figure that one out, but I think the issue was the double Armory that delay the production of the Factory. Special said that when he play Mech in TvZ, he went for 5 Factories first to prioritize getting more units out instead of the Tech. We've seen this scenario play out over and over again over the years. Some new strategy promises to give T/P players the edge against Zerg (most recently Hero's stalker / oracle pressure and Maru's ghostmech), it looks strong for a month or two, then Zerg players make some adjustments and things return to the status quo. So yeah, I'm not convinced that this problem is solvable short of fundamental changes to Zerg. | ||
|
Husyelt
United States832 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:59 LostUsername100 wrote: The amount of copium on this thread is insane. Everything was fine, until Maru lost to Serral once more, nevermind Maru does well vs every other Zerg. Well what did the other zergs do? A lot of them are prone to dying to 2 base allins / timings when they shouldn’t. On the other hand, the last game, Serral thought it was a 2 bases all-in because Maru hid his 3rd CC + had only 1 ebay at his 2nd base wall (so that Serral think it’s timing). The mind game worked because Serral stopped drones at 57 and produced lots of units while taking a late fourth base (once he confirmed there was a 3rd CC with his ling). Despite that, Maru still lost: it looked ok but once a nydus got in his main (despite being lots of turrets), he started crumbling. Other zergs such as Reynor have the mechanics to accomplish what Serral does, but Reynor isn’t as smart as Serral at understanding what’s going on / scouting properly, so he is prone at losing to timings. | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote: It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by. Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days. And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation. I dont think he played sub-par here, its just a matter of the match-up and current Meta. Mass LingBaneHydra will eventually crack the Terran defense despite trading worse against Bio-Tanks-Mine. Maru didnt have tons of Mine or Hellbat simply because Serral forced him to trade them out with his push and Terran cant remake units as quickly as Zerg. | ||
|
LostUsername100
92 Posts
Maybe Serral is just really really fucking good? | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:14 LostUsername100 wrote: Maru has a positive record vs every other Zerg recently, Dark isn't as smart as Serral either... Maybe Serral is just really really fucking good? and Maru isn't? | ||
|
LostUsername100
92 Posts
It's okay if your favourite player loses. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:14 LostUsername100 wrote: Maru has a positive record vs every other Zerg recently, Dark isn't as smart as Serral either... Maybe Serral is just really really fucking good? Serral only matter after 2018?. Before that, he was non exist and benefit from region-locked quota placed to foster new talents in non-Korean region. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:17 LostUsername100 wrote: It's okay if your favourite player loses. I know, your point? | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:14 LostUsername100 wrote: Maru has a positive record vs every other Zerg recently, Dark isn't as smart as Serral either... Maybe Serral is just really really fucking good? Suggesting Serral isnt insanely good is dumb. But its also dumb to not realize that Maru played a clean TvZ as much as he possibly could, and it still didnt matter in the end. Like what else would he supposed to do? 2 racks proxy every game? | ||
|
LostUsername100
92 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:18 swarminfestor wrote: Serral only matter after 2018?. Before that, he was non exist and benefit from region-locked quota placed to foster new talents in non-Korean region. Yes when he started playing full time. It's okay guys, take a deep breath. | ||
|
LostUsername100
92 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:23 tigera6 wrote: Suggesting Serral isnt insanely good is dumb. But its also dumb to not realize that Maru played a clean TvZ as much as he possibly could, and it still didnt matter in the end. Like what else would he supposed to do? 2 racks proxy every game? Maybe he should make the game wild more (2 rax), try other builds, it's just a single bo5, Maru recently is doing very well vs every other Zerg not named Serral. And that's okay. | ||
|
NotSoHappy
445 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:12 tigera6 wrote: I dont think he played sub-par here, its just a matter of the match-up and current Meta. Mass LingBaneHydra will eventually crack the Terran defense despite trading worse against Bio-Tanks-Mine. Maru didnt have tons of Mine or Hellbat simply because Serral forced him to trade them out with his push and Terran cant remake units as quickly as Zerg. Some part of it. I kind of accepted it since he has shown several weakness gameplays against Lambo yesterday. With couple of TvZ he has endured before arriving to final and Serral got map advantage, I just didn't he can win actually but still hopefully he can improve in the next game or be the same guy as he should in the past. | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:25 LostUsername100 wrote: Maybe he should make the game wild more (2 rax), try other builds, it's just a single bo5, Maru recently is doing very well vs every other Zerg not named Serral. And that's okay. The only build that he didnt try was Mech, and that is map-dependent. Any other macro build, unless its a hidden or gamble all-in, will lead to a similar situation in the last 2 games of this series. You have Bio/Tank/Mines vs mass lingbaneHydra and the result will head down the same road. And Dark actually did beat Maru twice this year, in GSL S1 and in DH Valencia, doing something similar with mass lingbane. Reynor just fooling around too much at the moment but when he get the focus back up for IEM, he would play like a top Zerg again. Other than those 2, its irrelevant to say Maru beating other Zergs. | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote: It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by. Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days. And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation. Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here. Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there. Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary). Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!! | ||
|
angry_maia
314 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:33 Nakajin wrote: Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here. Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there. Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary). Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!! Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearly better than everyone else when it comes to tvt. | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:56 angry_maia wrote: Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearly better than everyone else when it comes to tvt. Problem in a matchup like tvt there cant be imbalance in that way like with nojn mirror mus so it has to be skill in others it may not. | ||
|
dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:33 Nakajin wrote: Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here. Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there. Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary). Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!! Hmm while I think Serral is the overwhelming favorite against any non-Zerg player, I don't think he's anywhere near Maru TvT levels. He looked super shaky in HSC group stages (granted, those weren't do or die matches) and almost lost to Neeb, plus he's had a lot of losses to Clem (those were online, to be fair.) But yeah, the ranks of "top players" are way too thin rn. If someone other than Reynor/Serral/Dark/Maru/herO wins a big tournament, I'd consider that a shocking result (rip Zest/Trap/Rogue/TY.) Even when someone like Showtime makes a magical run, it feels it always ends with "oh nice job, now get slaughtered by Serral." Sadly there isn't really a solution, other than maybe giving more prep time to allow for more upsets. | ||
|
TossHeroes
281 Posts
Maru rekt every other Zergs including Reynor and no one said a word. But once Serral stomps Maru, all a sudden Zerg is too strong? I get it if this was solar stomping Maru , then we need to take a look at the balance. But Serral has always been tbe superior player for years now | ||
|
Athenau
569 Posts
On September 05 2022 05:13 TossHeroes wrote: Maru fanboys are out in full force with the usual balance whines Maru rekt every other Zergs including Reynor and no one said a word. But once Serral stomps Maru, all a sudden Zerg is too strong? I get it if this was solar stomping Maru , then we need to take a look at the balance. But Serral has always been tbe superior player for years now Yeah, Maru totally "rekt" Reynor with that close 3-2 series win. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 05 2022 04:56 angry_maia wrote: Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearly better than everyone else when it comes to tvt. Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win. Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically) | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 05 2022 05:11 dysenterymd wrote: Hmm while I think Serral is the overwhelming favorite against any non-Zerg player, I don't think he's anywhere near Maru TvT levels. He looked super shaky in HSC group stages (granted, those weren't do or die matches) and almost lost to Neeb, plus he's had a lot of losses to Clem (those were online, to be fair.) But yeah, the ranks of "top players" are way too thin rn. If someone other than Reynor/Serral/Dark/Maru/herO wins a big tournament, I'd consider that a shocking result (rip Zest/Trap/Rogue/TY.) Even when someone like Showtime makes a magical run, it feels it always ends with "oh nice job, now get slaughtered by Serral." Sadly there isn't really a solution, other than maybe giving more prep time to allow for more upsets. I say mix up the format, no more round robin, no more double elimination, make the series shorter (best of 3 instead of best of 5). We could even throw in best of 1 group of other thing like that. | ||
|
shindiginit
21 Posts
Hope that doesn't take away from Serral though. Serral is a god. GG's and congrats. Honestly, I am way more disappointed from the finale of TSL9. Making Serral cut a cake by himself and doing an interview at the same time? It looked very disjointed and not well thought out. A very fun event, but the cake/interview scene, and the balloon trophy, were.... odd. Thank you SHopify and Team liquid for the event regardless. It was fantastic! | ||
|
LostUsername100
92 Posts
On September 05 2022 05:20 Charoisaur wrote: Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win. Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically) TY was kinda Maru's peer, he even had a positive TvT record vs him, looking at only the #2 player is really bad way of going about this, you should prob look at the median top player, maybe just sum the performance difference between each player up to #10 of each race, Im not sure Maru comes out on top on this comparison, maybe if you restrict your sample to top 4 players of each race. Serral Reynor Dark Rogue are just stronger than what Terran has to offer after TY/Inno are gone and Byun/Gumi are not as good as before, then again maybe the T top10 is just stronger than the Z top10. | ||
|
JJH777
United States4408 Posts
| ||
|
Husyelt
United States832 Posts
Serral Jokes aside, great tournament. Steadfast did a better job than I thought he would, congrats on doing a finals cast of such a premiere tourney man. Feardragon as host was also a good move. Probably the highest production values of any tourney I’ve scene SC2, while also kept it casual in some areas. Showtime put up a helluva fight vs Maru, went 4-5 match overall score. | ||
|
angry_maia
314 Posts
On September 05 2022 06:05 shindiginit wrote: I think the Queen still poses an issue balance wise, wonder if making it require like 25 gas or 1 queen per hatch or something. That would probably be an over correction. I think the game is in a better spot these days than it has been but its clear Zerg is the strongest race. No doubt. Hope that doesn't take away from Serral though. Serral is a god. GG's and congrats. Honestly, I am way more disappointed from the finale of TSL9. Making Serral cut a cake by himself and doing an interview at the same time? It looked very disjointed and not well thought out. A very fun event, but the cake/interview scene, and the balloon trophy, were.... odd. Thank you SHopify and Team liquid for the event regardless. It was fantastic! I think it's very hard to correctly nerf the queen further without fundamentally redesigning zerg. Queens are absolutely essential for zerg to survive the early game against P or T, and any increase to their cost or limiting per hatchery will probably mean Z just dies to all-ins. To me, I think that Zerg has a bunch of very very powerful tools that don't seem to be needed at all. For example: 1. Infestors. Neural is not essential to any match-up (as far as I know) because removing it wouldn't really destroy balance. However, it just offers a really powerful tool for zergs to almost instawin big fights (i.e. neural a ghost into emp the other ghosts, or nerualling 5 tempests). This is especially crazy when the infestor can be burrowed the whole duration of neural and immune to attack without detection. Add fungal on top of this and i really just wonder why this unit needs to be this strong. 2. Vipers. Why do these things have 3 strong abilities + the ability to regen energy from buildings. Abduct is super, super strong, parastic bomb is an anti-air AOE with a larger radius and more damage than psi storm, and blinding cloud is also useful situationally. What's crazy to me is as strong as these units are, they aren't even used in every late game. There just seems to be a TON of compositions you can make out of (Lurkers, Ultras, Vipers, Infestors, Adrenalings, banelings, brood lords). | ||
|
QOGQOG
834 Posts
On September 05 2022 06:38 angry_maia wrote: I think it's very hard to correctly nerf the queen further without fundamentally redesigning zerg. Queens are absolutely essential for zerg to survive the early game against P or T, and any increase to their cost or limiting per hatchery will probably mean Z just dies to all-ins. To me, I think that Zerg has a bunch of very very powerful tools that don't seem to be needed at all. For example: 1. Infestors. Neural is not essential to any match-up (as far as I know) because removing it wouldn't really destroy balance. However, it just offers a really powerful tool for zergs to almost instawin big fights (i.e. neural a ghost into emp the other ghosts, or nerualling 5 tempests). This is especially crazy when the infestor can be burrowed the whole duration of neural and immune to attack without detection. Add fungal on top of this and i really just wonder why this unit needs to be this strong. 2. Vipers. Why do these things have 3 strong abilities + the ability to regen energy from buildings. Abduct is super, super strong, parastic bomb is an anti-air AOE with a larger radius and more damage than psi storm, and blinding cloud is also useful situationally. What's crazy to me is as strong as these units are, they aren't even used in every late game. There just seems to be a TON of compositions you can make out of (Lurkers, Ultras, Vipers, Infestors, Adrenalings, banelings, brood lords). This gets at one of the main problems with Zerg design in SC2: it's balanced around having a bigger economy and trading inefficiently, but then they also have most of the most cost-efficient units in the mid to late game with infinite free unit spawning (Brood Lords, Swarm Hosts) and extremely strong spellcasters (Vipers, Infestors). Unfortunately, changing this would be a redesign just as, if not more unlikely to happen than fixing the Queen. | ||
|
BeoMulf
United States92 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 05:13 TossHeroes wrote: Maru fanboys are out in full force with the usual balance whines Maru rekt every other Zergs including Reynor and no one said a word. But once Serral stomps Maru, all a sudden Zerg is too strong? I get it if this was solar stomping Maru , then we need to take a look at the balance. But Serral has always been tbe superior player for years now Like I said in my other post, talking about Maru TvZ against any other non-top Zerg is irrelevant. And we have seen Dark beating Maru this yeah with the same style, and Rogue also did in ST3 last year. And I can guarantee you that Reynor will be on fire when IEM come around, hes just not in the zone right now. And it didnt take me to this Grand Final to say that Terran need a slight buff to make thing more interesting. The whole gameplan for Terran in current Meta is hope to do massive worker damage, or do an all-in fight to catch the opponent off-guard. If that doesnt happen, and things go to a full macro game, eventually Terran will be flooded with 3 different AoE and mass Zealot in PvT or mass LingbaneHydra jn ZvT. This somehow look like the recent GSL Final between Maru and herO where herO play incredible and deseve to win, but at the same time you cant really point at Maru and say that other Terran can do better and have a better chance against such opponents. | ||
|
Garnet
Vietnam9021 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
On September 05 2022 09:42 tigera6 wrote: This somehow look like the recent GSL Final between Maru and herO where herO play incredible and deseve to win, but at the same time you cant really point at Maru and say that other Terran can do better and have a better chance against such opponents. To be fair, Maru is the best Korean Terran and the only active Terran player who I would say is the best in all three match ups. ByuN and Bunny doesn't seem to play late game very well while Cure is back to being inconsistent. Clem and Heromarine are great but they still need to take another step to compete against the top Koreans. I honestly think we're past the golden years of SC2. Just look at the LCS in League of Legends. EG vs TL was a banger of a series yesterday but compared to the LCK and LPL, man NA is going to suck once more at Worlds. I can't see NA getting past group stage and that's because the level of competition in NA simply isn't that high compared to EU, Korea, and China. On September 05 2022 04:26 NotSoHappy wrote: The problem is with age of the players currently and no new players joining the pros. The base of the pros that can take the trophy is really slim. Many pros retired, are in the military or just simply getting old. This game is on its last stage. Enjoy it while it lasts. Sc2 was never balanced and never will be. We do have new players. It's just hard for them to break into the top 16 in Korea and top 50 rest of the world (using Aligulac rankings). SC2 is that unforgiving of a game. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On September 05 2022 13:31 geokilla wrote: We do have new players. It's just hard for them to break into the top 16 in Korea and top 50 rest of the world (using Aligulac rankings). SC2 is that unforgiving of a game. not even talking about top 16, how often do we see new names in the GSL qualifiers? I don't think korea is getting new high level players at all basically | ||
|
NotSoHappy
445 Posts
wait 1-2 more years and you'll see reynor winning everything, because he'll mature enough to fix whatever problems he has now. when he stops fk around with protoss and sticks to one race haha it is just how it is. the game is on its last stage | ||
|
sirokop
5 Posts
Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency. His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps. There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate. I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 05 2022 19:45 Durnuu wrote: Guys it's not Zerg, it's just Serral, Reynor, soO, Lambo, Rogue, Ragnarok, Elazer, Scarlett, and Dark Lambo, Ragnarok and Elazer are not winning anything yet. I think you should exclude them as putting them altogether meaning they are on par each other in their peak performance days. | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote: Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs. Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency. His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps. There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate. I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. | ||
|
TossHeroes
281 Posts
On September 05 2022 20:33 tigera6 wrote: Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
PD: pls TL.net staff, I don't know why you decide to put this Steadfast guy to cast the finals. He is by far the less talented caster that flew there. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 05 2022 23:11 TossHeroes wrote: And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years Oh, Toss players complain just as much... But this tournament their best player lost in PvT which nobody believes to be imbalanced so they had no reason to complain this time | ||
|
darklycid
3510 Posts
On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote: Oh, Toss players complain just as much... But this tournament their best player lost in PvT which nobody believes to be imbalanced so they had no reason to complain this time Tbf PvZ the recent years wars soul drainingly bad, going from 2019 death of the mu to 2020 and 2021 stargate fiestas etc. Every loss felt worse and worse :D | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote: Oh, Toss players complain just as much... lol, no. Nobody complains as much as Terrans. It's part of their race identity. Granted, Artosis carries a significant part of that workload by himself. | ||
|
TossHeroes
281 Posts
On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote: Oh, Toss players complain just as much... But this tournament their best player lost in PvT which nobody believes to be imbalanced so they had no reason to complain this time Lol Zerg and toss combine don’t even complain half as much as terran When Maru lose to toss, the fanboys complain regardless of balance When Maru lose to Zerg ,the fan boys complain regardless of balance No one outside Maru fans believe balance is the reason why he lost. Serral has been the superior player for awhile now When Maru beat dark is recent GSL and reynor in TSL9 no one said a word except “maruGOd” But once Serral clowned on Maru it turns to “ Zerg Imba queen Imba etc” | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 06 2022 00:45 TossHeroes wrote: Lol Zerg and toss combine don’t even complain half as much as terran When Maru lose to toss, the fanboys complain regardless of balance When Maru lose to Zerg ,the fan boys complain regardless of balance No one outside Maru fans believe balance is the reason why he lost. Serral has been the superior player for awhile now When Maru beat dark is recent GSL and reynor in TSL9 no one said a word except “maruGOd” But once Serral clowned on Maru it turns to “ Zerg Imba queen Imba etc” Nah when a top Protoss got swept by Serral, Reynor, Dark or Rogue there were always tons of people complaining just the same. Zerg is dominating the scene for 5 years now so Zerg players would look silly complaining also there were no complaints when Maru lost to herO in the GSL finals | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
Most balance whines come from Protoss fanboys (which is somewhat also understandable given the terrible state of PvZ for many years). In fact, everytime Maru loses, I tend to see more of an influx of anti-fans gloating and making fun of imaginary Maru fanboys. P.S. And this is coming from someone who was rather pissed with Maru denying so many Protoss winning GSL during his miracle 4-championship run. | ||
|
Kitai
United States873 Posts
On September 06 2022 00:35 Fanatic-Templar wrote: lol, no. Nobody complains as much as Terrans. It's part of their race identity. Granted, Artosis carries a significant part of that workload by himself. This is a SC2 thread, which Artosis has barely played in years. When he does play SC2, he's Protoss and complains about how weak they are. There hasn't really been a major Terran whiner since Avilo, who also hasn't had a platform in years since he got banned from everything. Most complaints over the last few years are about Z being too strong, referencing major tournament wins over the last half decade (not to mention their dominance in the foreigner scene). Those complaints would come equally from Terran and Protoss, so I'm not really sure what you're on about when you say complaining is part of the Terran race identity. | ||
|
tigera6
3397 Posts
On September 06 2022 00:45 TossHeroes wrote: Lol Zerg and toss combine don’t even complain half as much as terran When Maru lose to toss, the fanboys complain regardless of balance When Maru lose to Zerg ,the fan boys complain regardless of balance No one outside Maru fans believe balance is the reason why he lost. Serral has been the superior player for awhile now When Maru beat dark is recent GSL and reynor in TSL9 no one said a word except “maruGOd” But once Serral clowned on Maru it turns to “ Zerg Imba queen Imba etc” As a Maru fan, but also trying to be objective, I am not trying to belittle Serral and what he did. But let just look at things on from the Terran side, people call Maru a God because literally hes playing like one within the context of the Terran race. Personally I think he has played very well in the recent months, and hardly made any ape-like mistake like he used to. The phrase people are using in the analysis and game commentary has been "if this was any other Terran, they would be dead" but Maru always manage to make the best of the shitty situation he was in. And while Serral shows what he can do at a supreme level with Zerg, we have also seen that before from Reynor, Dark, Rogue when they reach their peak performance as well. So the complain about game balance is somewhat justifiable if you ask the question, what else was Maru supposed to do in the games that he lost? Other than the loss to roach all-in, he play an almost flawless game as well and it was close at some point but in the end he was still short. Maybe a few lucky Mines hit here and there could change the outcome, but Serral didnt "clown" Maru, they both play their best game mechanically and the re-max of Zerg eventually beat out the re-production of Terran. IF you think that Maru didnt play well and derserve to lose, feel free to enlighten me, and other blind witness out there, of what you would do instead to win the games. | ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On September 06 2022 01:07 RKC wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I really don't get any vibes from Maru fanboys being bitter or sore loserish. They typically criticise Maru's play, and occasionally raise some tame balance complaints against Zerg. Maybe the praise over Maru's wins may seem excessive at times, but it's understandable since Maru does things no other player in his race can (unlike Zerg and Protoss). Most balance whines come from Protoss fanboys (which is somewhat also understandable given the terrible state of PvZ for many years). In fact, everytime Maru loses, I tend to see more of an influx of anti-fans gloating and making fun of imaginary Maru fanboys. P.S. And this is coming from someone who was rather pissed with Maru denying so many Protoss winning GSL during his miracle 4-championship run. this is a great read on the situation. "imaginary Maru fanboys" lol Maru had a small but dedicated hate club back in WoL, for reasons I cannot fully explain. yep... it was a long time ago, but the narrative went something like: "he relies on retarded aggression, cheesy 1-1-1 builds and superior micro as a crutch" again, this was way back in 2012 and I'm talking about a handful of very vocal haters, not the legions of anti-fans he seems to have now. regardless, I always felt that the dislike towards Maru was disproportionate. maybe it was an age thing. him being so young was always a story-beat talked-to-death by casters. perhaps the distaste grew from his "young virtuoso" storyline being hyped so much. this is but a mere footnote in the story of MarineKing, who was the real big bad for terran anti-fans back in WoL. MKP eventually fizzled out and disappeared from the scene. Maru and MKP were on the same team and played a similar "obnoxious" micro cheese style, so it happened that Maru was pegged as MarineKing's successor. I think that's how Maru kinda inherited the MKP hate club lol curiously, ByuN managed to avoid all this nonsense because ByuN is impossible to hate! it wasn't just toss / zergs being salty either. people were always pissed when he knocked out other terrans like Mvp or MMA (because they played "proper" while Maru was just a cheesy Prime terran). he was infamous for that marine / hellion drop back in the day. I must have watched GuMiho lose to that 100 times on stream fast-forward to the present day, and you have a massive hate club Maru hate really started to grow when he won back-to-back GSL in 2018 / 2019, and when Serral was becoming a foreign power. it's not Maru they hate, it's what he represents: Korean dominance, the establishment, the "superior terran mechanics" bias, and the whole pre-approved freeze-dried and vacuum-packed young bonjwa story. "here's your bonjwa now cheer for him" = NO YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
There were also some guys called Innovation and TYTY and to some lesser extent Cure and they were called Four Terran Horseman for a reason. Every race but Zerg has gotten worse representation over the last 5 years. Inno, TY, Stats, Classic, Zest are all world champion caliber of players. Zerg only lost Rogue now | ||
|
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On September 06 2022 17:17 Harris1st wrote: Maru has done some amazing things but to say he carried the race alone is a bit of an exaggeration IMO. There were also some guys called Innovation and TYTY and to some lesser extent Cure and they were called Four Terran Horseman for a reason. Every race but Zerg has gotten worse representation over the last 5 years. Inno, TY, Stats, Classic, Zest are all world champion caliber of players. Zerg only lost Rogue now Pretty sure ByuN was in the four horsemen and not Cure though. Outside of that GSL victory, Cure was not super relevant as he choked in every offline tournament he entered iirc. I agree INno was a staple of terran, but he kinda mostly dominated when terran was in a good spot while Maru was the savior of the race in dark times. TY was very promising but outside of that IEM win (which was when tank pushes were strong), he only was dominant in 2020 GSL / prep tournaments, on the back of his good TvT. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 06 2022 17:17 Harris1st wrote: Maru has done some amazing things but to say he carried the race alone is a bit of an exaggeration IMO. There were also some guys called Innovation and TYTY and to some lesser extent Cure and they were called Four Terran Horseman for a reason. Every race but Zerg has gotten worse representation over the last 5 years. Inno, TY, Stats, Classic, Zest are all world champion caliber of players. Zerg only lost Rogue now Zerg also lost two other world championship caliber players in soO and Life edit: Oh you said in the last 5 years, then just soO | ||
|
NotSoHappy
445 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On September 07 2022 11:12 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Wait, are people really trying to pretend that Maru is getting unfairly maligned by the fanbase? Dude gets called godlike every series he plays. I've never seen any player get that kind of consistent admiration since Flash and Jaedong stopped playing. Don't get me wrong, Maru actually deserves the respect he's being given, but pretending that the community hates him is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. nobody's pretending that the fanbase at large hates him, or that player-bashing is tolerated on well-moderated community hubs like TL, because that would be ludicrous. keep the chat window open when Maru drops out of GSL or loses to a foreigner, read the youtube comments, and then tell me with a straight face that this section of the fanbase doesn't count. sc2 is a lot more mature than other gaming communities. pretending that it is entirely free of haters is pretty naive | ||
|
neveranexit
14 Posts
On September 05 2022 05:20 Charoisaur wrote: Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win. Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically) I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned. | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
On September 07 2022 17:53 neveranexit wrote: I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned. What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light). I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ. | ||
|
HeroSandro
530 Posts
On September 07 2022 18:38 RKC wrote: What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light). I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ. Drawing too many conclusions from comparing BW and SC2 is a bit dangerous as they are different games. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 06 2022 11:14 Kitai wrote: This is a SC2 thread, which Artosis has barely played in years. When he does play SC2, he's Protoss and complains about how weak they are. There hasn't really been a major Terran whiner since Avilo, who also hasn't had a platform in years since he got banned from everything. Most complaints over the last few years are about Z being too strong, referencing major tournament wins over the last half decade (not to mention their dominance in the foreigner scene). Those complaints would come equally from Terran and Protoss, so I'm not really sure what you're on about when you say complaining is part of the Terran race identity. Artosis has been casting GSL, the world's premier SC2 tournament, for the past twelve years. He has far more of a platform to vent his opinions than any SC2 player. And yes, he still complains like a Terran. As for complaining being part of Terran's identity, every race complains about balance when they're doing poorly, but Terran is the only race that complains even when they're doing well. | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On September 07 2022 18:38 RKC wrote: What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light). I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ. I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
On September 07 2022 20:58 Harris1st wrote: I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them Which Zerg underdog has punched Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark off their perch in the knockout stage of a major tourney? The only example I can think of is Elazer upsetting Dark in Blizzcon. And Rogue slumping in group stage after a big tourney win happens across all matchups and doesn't count. | ||
|
HeroSandro
530 Posts
On September 07 2022 22:09 RKC wrote: Which Zerg underdog has punched Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark off their perch in the knockout stage of a major tourney? The only example I can think of is Elazer upsetting Dark in Blizzcon. And Rogue slumping in group stage after a big tourney win happens across all matchups and doesn't count. DH Summer Serrals lost 3-2 against Lambo. Lambo also defeated Dark on gsl vs the world. Not counting Rogues defeat feels a bit random | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 07 2022 23:12 HeroSandro wrote: DH Summer Serrals lost 3-2 against Lambo. Lambo also defeated Dark on gsl vs the world. Not counting Rogues defeat feels a bit random I agree with him though that upsets in ZvZ don't really happen more often than in other matchups. Gumiho and Heromarine also upset Serral in TvZ. In general the top Zergs beat the other Zergs pretty consistenly in ZvZ | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
On September 07 2022 23:20 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with him though that upsets in ZvZ don't really happen more often than in other matchups. Gumiho and Heromarine also upset Serral in TvZ. In general the top Zergs beat the other Zergs pretty consistenly in ZvZ PvP arguably is the most volatile mirror matchup in SC2. With the amount of ZvZ in LoTV, those upsets are merely an outlier. The Four Cerebrates (or whatever the Zerg equivalent is to the Four Horsemen) should have a winning percentage of over 90 or 95% over lesser drones. That's just a guesstimate. Anyone is free to pull out some stats to prove me wrong. | ||
|
neveranexit
14 Posts
On September 07 2022 20:58 Harris1st wrote: I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them BW ZvZ was also considered the most volatile until Jaedong started having 80%+ win rates during his peak. I would say certainly Serral is the most skilled SC2 player, but I don't think Serral has a substantially better understanding of the game or mechanics than Maru (at least not enough to justify his WR and countless tournament wins). It's hard to say for sure, but it bothers me that Serral is unable to match his ZvP/ZvT performance in ZvZ. I would also agree with RKC. I've followed SC2 and BW very closely since 2007. IMO BW ZvZ seems much more difficult to win consistently than SC2 ZvZ. I would go as far as to say that Blizzard specifically overhauled ZvZ for SC2 to be more predictable due to the complaints about ZvZ in BW. | ||
|
Athenau
569 Posts
| ||
|
Kitai
United States873 Posts
On September 07 2022 20:45 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Artosis has been casting GSL, the world's premier SC2 tournament, for the past twelve years. He has far more of a platform to vent his opinions than any SC2 player. And yes, he still complains like a Terran. That's an astonishing leap in logic. I'll try to break it down in easier to understand chunks: Artosis does not play Terran in SC2. When he plays SC2, he's Protoss. Artosis does not complain about Terran being too weak in SC2. Artosis primarily plays and complains about Terran in a game called Brood War. Brood War is not the same game as SC2 and the races are balanced completely differently. Trying to attribute Artosis's Brood War Terran complaints to the SC2 Terran community is nonsensical. Also, you will find players of every race whining about their weaknesses at all points in time, regardless of who the meta favors. It's equally absurd to stereotype Terran players as the only ones. | ||
|
buzz_bender
445 Posts
I think that unless we change something about the format of weekenders, Zergs are always favoured, even if it's just by a bit, and a bit is all some players need at the tip top level. Now, I'm wondering if DH Valencia's Finals between Dark/Maru was so close is because of the all new maps in the map pool. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 08 2022 12:37 Kitai wrote: That's an astonishing leap in logic. I'll try to break it down in easier to understand chunks: Artosis does not play Terran in SC2. When he plays SC2, he's Protoss. Artosis does not complain about Terran being too weak in SC2. Artosis primarily plays and complains about Terran in a game called Brood War. Brood War is not the same game as SC2 and the races are balanced completely differently. Trying to attribute Artosis's Brood War Terran complaints to the SC2 Terran community is nonsensical. Also, you will find players of every race whining about their weaknesses at all points in time, regardless of who the meta favors. It's equally absurd to stereotype Terran players as the only ones. Tbf just looking at the pro players it's probably true that Terran players have the most notorious whiners. For Terran we have/had Heromarine, Special, uthermal and Marinelord who are all massive balance whiners, for Zerg it's really just Scarlett (unless we go really far back to the IdrA days) and for Protoss I can't really think of anyone who complains as much. From the community though every race probably complains about the same | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On September 08 2022 13:50 buzz_bender wrote: It does seem to me that a weekender tournament will always suit Zerg's playstyle better, in that they are highly reactive. Watching the Finals looked like Serral figured out Maru's playstyle, and countered it completely. Hence, that is why he looked so dominant. It also doesn't help that Maru himself played against Solar, Lambo, and Reynor in the previous rounds, showing all his styles to Serral. He also didn't have too much time to come up with proper timing attacks etc. I think that unless we change something about the format of weekenders, Zergs are always favoured, even if it's just by a bit, and a bit is all some players need at the tip top level. Now, I'm wondering if DH Valencia's Finals between Dark/Maru was so close is because of the all new maps in the map pool. Was Maru's playstyle different this weekend to the 4/ 8 / 12 weeks before? Or is it more of a "Maru is playing very predictable in general" kinda problem? | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
What is? That casting GSL for twelve years means Artosis' opinions have more influence than those of any player? That seems like a very basic statement to me, what about it challenges you? On September 08 2022 12:37 Kitai wrote:I'll try to break it down in easier to understand chunks: Artosis does not play Terran in SC2. When he plays SC2, he's Protoss. Artosis does not complain about Terran being too weak in SC2. Artosis primarily plays and complains about Terran in a game called Brood War. Brood War is not the same game as SC2 and the races are balanced completely differently. Trying to attribute Artosis's Brood War Terran complaints to the SC2 Terran community is nonsensical. Breaking it down did make it easy to spot the problem. It's the third chunk. Artosis does complain about Terran being too weak in SC2. Routinely. | ||
|
buzz_bender
445 Posts
On September 08 2022 20:57 Harris1st wrote: Was Maru's playstyle different this weekend to the 4/ 8 / 12 weeks before? Or is it more of a "Maru is playing very predictable in general" kinda problem? He actually showcased a whole bunch of different styles, mostly aggressive builds against Lambo/Solar and Reynor. He even went 2 Starport 2 BC build into mech against Reynor in the last game. He didn't play his "signature" turtle style much. I have a feeling that he knows that the Zerg players are figuring him out - in terms of when to attack and army comp and movement etc, and hence his playstyle is quite different than usual. But then again, how much more can you do when you're playing against Zerg after Zerg? I actually think that he "lost" the tournament when he dropped into the lower bracket after he lost to ShowTime. If he stayed in the upper bracket, he really only had to play Serral in a Bo5 without showing any of his TvZ builds. | ||
|
TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
EDIT: actually it seems that liquipedia is linking to the wrong video... Liquipedia link is but that's not the right one. | ||
| ||
